Guild Wars 2

Ohoni.6057:

The argument is that no one repeats the story-mode dungeons because the rewards are way too low. As they probably would be for easy mode raids.

If they are too low for easy mode raids then they should be raised to be higher. They should never be too low to be worth running the content.

Easy fix.

Even if the rewards are balanced, like fractals, then no one would repeat the easy mode once they’re able to do the normal one. Again, wasted content.

Again, that assumes that all players would “graduate” to hard mode. I don’t believe this will ever be the case. I believe that there are plenty of players who fall into the category of “would enjoy easy mode raids, would NEVER enjoy hard mode raids. EVER. Like in a million years ever. Like they would play the easy mode raids on a weekly basis for years, and still not feel like doing the hard mode versions regularly. That kind of forever.”

I guarantee you, if they get it right, people would be playing easy mode raids at least as long as they continue to play the hard mode versions.

And if the rewards were over-tuned towards easy-mode raids, then no one do the normal mode. Like COF p3.

Again, not an issue. Hard mode has its own rewards. People who can complete hard mode and enjoy that sort of thing would be able to continue doing so. Basically, if you enjoy hard mode raiding, want raid style rewards, then hard mode raiding is objectively the most efficient path for you. If you don’t enjoy hard mode raiding, but still want the raid experience and rewards, then easy mode raiding is for you, hard mode being too hard, and everything else offering a different experience and rewards. If you don’t care about any of that stuff, then neither mode is for you, and that’s fine too, but at least this way all three groups have a service, currently the middle group is left out.

Lets not forget you actually wanted an easy mode that gets the same rewards as hard mode before. Why the change in tune now?

And no, there is no ‘middle group’ you speak of, its really just people who don’t want to make a proper effort , and game design should never pander to those people. Once you start classifying these people in their own groups, there’ll be another group of people who want that easy mode to get a little easier, etc etc etc. Let the developers keep their own vision of how the game should be played.

Don’t guarantee anything you can’t substantiate please.

The game needed a harder group setting, it has one. We all get that you don’t like that, but your incessant need for rewards doesn’t justify needing to create a dumber version of existing content

But again, I haven’t heard ANYONE complain that the existing difficulty of raids cannot remain. Certainly not me, and I don’t think Astral. What we’re asking for is an alternate version that IS balanced with the other content, which you agree is not nearly that challenging. You get to keep your version, we just want ours.

Lets not forget you actually wanted an easy mode that gets the same rewards as hard mode before. Why the change in tune now?

I’ve never asked for the same rewards. Same quality of rewards, ideally, for example it should have a path towards Envoy armor (or alternately, some other content of similar difficulty would provide an alternate path), but I have ALWAYS agreed that the easy mode should contain a reduced quantity of reward, so that running hard mode is the more efficient use of your time and effort IF you enjoy it and are capable of it.

Hard mode should be for people who enjoy challenging content, easy mode should be those incapable or unwilling to engage with hard mode, for whatever reasons.

And no, there is no ‘middle group’ you speak of, its really just people who don’t want to make a proper effort , and game design should never pander to those people.

You may see it that way but I see them as the core customer base for this game, and far more valuable to Arenanet than the raiding community is.

Once you start classifying these people in their own groups, there’ll be another group of people who want that easy mode to get a little easier, etc etc etc.

No, it’s not a slippery slope. We already have various content in the game with variable difficulty, so long as it’s tuned to be balanced against the average level 80 content in the game, balanced against dungeons and low level Fractals, that’s as low as it reasonably needs to go. There may be people that will continue to insist it be easier, but these people will be as fringe as those currently insisting that the difficulty should stay the same, and easily ignored.

Raids should not have an easy mode.

Every time the developers release a wing, they would have to waste time on a separate easy mode. Besides access to some lore, what would be the purpose of this easy mode?

That effort is better spent on new living story, fractals, and maps, or improving existing content.

Also, the raid armor should only be obtainable through raids. They can release a low-difficulty legendary armor at a later stage, but it should have different looks.

Every time the developers release a wing, they would have to waste time on a separate easy mode. Besides access to some lore, what would be the purpose of this easy mode?

That effort is better spent on new living story, fractals, and maps, or improving existing content.

People talk about it like it’s a 1:1 tradeoff, that if they make an easy mode raid wing, that the alternative would be like a completely new Fractal, or a completely new open world map or something. That’s completely unrealistic. Yes, it would take work, but it would obviously take a lot LESS work than any other possible content of a similar scope. They don’t need animations, models, environments, writing, about 95% of what it would take to make a new content environment is already done in making the hard mode.

They wouldn’t even need to work too hard at tuning, since they already spent so much time tuning the hard mode to be as close to tolerances as possible. All they need to do is loosen the bolts a bit, rather than having to tighten them just so without snapping them off. Yes, it would take work, but it would take FAR fewer people FAR less time than it would take to create anything wholly original. It’s a fair trade-off, even if it’s not content that you want or need.

Also, the raid armor should only be obtainable through raids. They can release a low-difficulty legendary armor at a later stage, but it should have different looks.

Then how would people that want to wear the experimental/envoy skins but are unable/unwilling to raid be able to get them?

Ohoni.6057:

The game needed a harder group setting, it has one. We all get that you don’t like that, but your incessant need for rewards doesn’t justify needing to create a dumber version of existing content

But again, I haven’t heard ANYONE complain that the existing difficulty of raids cannot remain. Certainly not me, and I don’t think Astral. What we’re asking for is an alternate version that IS balanced with the other content, which you agree is not nearly that challenging. You get to keep your version, we just want ours.

Lets not forget you actually wanted an easy mode that gets the same rewards as hard mode before. Why the change in tune now?

I’ve never asked for the same rewards. Same quality of rewards, ideally, for example it should have a path towards Envoy armor (or alternately, some other content of similar difficulty would provide an alternate path), but I have ALWAYS agreed that the easy mode should contain a reduced quantity of reward, so that running hard mode is the more efficient use of your time and effort IF you enjoy it and are capable of it.

Hard mode should be for people who enjoy challenging content, easy mode should be those incapable or unwilling to engage with hard mode, for whatever reasons.

And no, there is no ‘middle group’ you speak of, its really just people who don’t want to make a proper effort , and game design should never pander to those people.

You may see it that way but I see them as the core customer base for this game, and far more valuable to Arenanet than the raiding community is.

Once you start classifying these people in their own groups, there’ll be another group of people who want that easy mode to get a little easier, etc etc etc.

No, it’s not a slippery slope. We already have various content in the game with variable difficulty, so long as it’s tuned to be balanced against the average level 80 content in the game, balanced against dungeons and low level Fractals, that’s as low as it reasonably needs to go. There may be people that will continue to insist it be easier, but these people will be as fringe as those currently insisting that the difficulty should stay the same, and easily ignored.

Game has no place for people unwilling to do things. If you are unwilling, you shouldn’t be playing. Guaranteed! I’m unwilling to grind the mats for a legendary weapon, Arenanet should start handing them out I guess. It’s never been Arenanet’s mantra to cater for people unwilling to do things. They’ll never bet there to say ‘hey, we have content 100% of people will enjoy 100% of the time’. Soon enough the majority of people will find the current raids way too easy.

Oh Ohoni you’ve definitely ranted on about having equal rewards, like this is some forum for human rights or something. When I’m bored enough I’ll dig out that gem in a topic on this forum somewhere.

I’d really like to see some numbers where people have actively quit GW2 because they are so up in arms about raids. You complain so much here and I don’t see you quitting. And if you, the staunchest of people who are against raiding haven’t quit they really have no worries that the supposed ‘difficulty’ of raids are offending anyone.

Game has no place for people unwilling to do things. If you are unwilling, you shouldn’t be playing. Guaranteed! I’m unwilling to grind the mats for a legendary weapon, Arenanet should start handing them out I guess.

“Handing them out?” No. But providing alternate methods? That’s definitely something that would be good for the game. I mean most mats you can either farm yourself, or buy on the markets, which is at least two options. More would be nice though.

I’d really like to see some numbers where people have actively quit GW2 because they are so up in arms about raids. You complain so much here and I don’t see you quitting. And if you, the staunchest of people who are against raiding haven’t quit they really have no worries that the supposed ‘difficulty’ of raids are offending anyone.

It’s not a matter of people quitting over it, it’s a matter of whether they are fully satisfying their customers. If they can launch a relatively simple change that would satisfy a lot of players, then they should do so.

Ohoni.6057:

It’s not a matter of people quitting over it, it’s a matter of whether they are fully satisfying their customers. If they can launch a relatively simple change that would satisfy a lot of players, then they should do so.

So basically instead of using this objective metric (because you know as well as anyone else does that raids are helping with player retention) you want to move to this subjective metric that ultimately doesn’t really have much bearing on anything.

So basically instead of using this objective metric

People quitting is in no way an objective metric of any one game system. People don’t quit over any single system, they quit because of multiple elements interacting. Determining exactly why people quit in a very complex calculation, but just counting people who ragequit stating a single issue as the reason is meaningless.

Ohoni.6057:

Game has no place for people unwilling to do things. If you are unwilling, you shouldn’t be playing. Guaranteed! I’m unwilling to grind the mats for a legendary weapon, Arenanet should start handing them out I guess.

“Handing them out?” No. But providing alternate methods? That’s definitely something that would be good for the game. I mean most mats you can either farm yourself, or buy on the markets, which is at least two options. More would be nice though.

I’d really like to see some numbers where people have actively quit GW2 because they are so up in arms about raids. You complain so much here and I don’t see you quitting. And if you, the staunchest of people who are against raiding haven’t quit they really have no worries that the supposed ‘difficulty’ of raids are offending anyone.

It’s not a matter of people quitting over it, it’s a matter of whether they are fully satisfying their customers. If they can launch a relatively simple change that would satisfy a lot of players, then they should do so.

Who’s to say this simple change of satisfying a lot of players won’t make an equal amount of other players dissatisfied.

Ohoni.6057:

People quitting is in no way an objective metric of any one game system.

So you’ve just kinda stumbled right out the gate here by saying this. If this were true, ANet would not be able to conclusively say that raids have helped player retention.

But they did say that, so what’s going on?

Ohoni.6057:

People don’t quit over any single system, they quit because of multiple elements interacting. Determining exactly why people quit in a very complex calculation,

So assuming this is right, it’s not really very complex. You just count up the reasons people quit and then you look at which reason occurs the most often and tada, you have your culprit.

One of those reasons was the lack of difficult content. That’s why raids were implemented.

Ohoni.6057:

but just counting people who ragequit stating a single issue as the reason is meaningless.

This is a reductionist strawman.

Who’s to say this simple change of satisfying a lot of players won’t make an equal amount of other players dissatisfied.

Possible, but highly unlikely. It’s ANet’s call either way.

So you’ve just kinda stumbled right out the gate here by saying this. If this were true, ANet would not be able to conclusively say that raids have helped player retention.

But they did say that, so what’s going on?

Have they said that? If they did, it would have been a mistake on their part, since that would be impossible to judge. I mean, if a player joins, plays a raid, and does not quit, is that because he enjoyed the raid so much that he didn’t quit even if he otherwise would have? Or is it because he enjoyed mining ore so much that he put up with raiding? It’s completely impossible to tell just from whether or not he quit the game.

So assuming this is right, it’s not really very complex. You just count up the reasons people quit and then you look at which reason occurs the most often and tada, you have your culprit.

But how do you count those things up? You are rarely told what those things are. In many cases, the people who quit don’t even know what those things are, they just enjoyed the game at one point, many things changed since then, some they liked, others they didn’t, and over time they just felt less interested in playing and eventually stopped. Most don’t even bother going into the exact details as to what contributed to that, and they certainly don’t tell ANet.

One of those reasons was the lack of difficult content. That’s why raids were implemented.

And yet plenty of people who complained about the “lack of difficult content” continued to play, so it can’t be said to be something that drove away ALL players that were bothered by it, just as raids cannot be said to drive away all players that are bothered by them. In any case, the best solution is to have both, to have the “difficult content” that some few players enjoy, but to also allow those many more players who do not to avoid that difficult content without missing out on anything else for doing so.

but just counting people who ragequit stating a single issue as the reason is meaningless.

This is a reductionist strawman.

If you say so, but it’s also true. There is no hard metric to say “this many people quit because of X.” Any value you get from that would either be over-counting people who might have cared more about other things, or under-counting people who did care about that issue very much, but did not express it in an outwardly noticeable way.

I’m sorry but I’m not going to go through that post word by word. One paragraph is hard enough to dissect, let alone five.

Long story short, ANet uses a breadth of analytical tools so they can tell who is leaving and why. They have large presences in both the official forums and third-party websites to gather feedback. They gather data constantly about what players are doing. They have employees whose job is to parse and analyze player feedback and statistics.

Your assertion that a middle-of-the-road, pleases everyone solution is the best answer is the result of GIGO. You have no data from which to draw conclusions and you openly refuse to accept conclusions provided from people with way more data than you.

Long story short, ANet uses a breadth of analytical tools so they can tell who is leaving and why.

Sure, but ultimately it all comes down to guesswork. They might know what activities a player was doing in the time leading up to quitting, and that might help to pin down why they left, but it’s not actually going to tell them anything. I mean, over the last few weeks, I went from playing a lot of ranked PvP, to a little unranked, I’ve been doing various open world dailies, I’ve been doing that new Anomaly thing, I cleared the new “posted message” achievement, I killed one of the new bounties, I bought that hoverjet pack, etc. Now if I were to quit today, if that had been the last stuff I’d done, why had I quit? Is it because one of those things annoyed me so I ragequit? Is it because something I haven’t been doing, like raids, bothered me so much that I quit? Is it because something I very much wanted to exist, did not currently exist? they may have some idea of how I’m shifting from task to task, but they can only guess at my motivations, it’s by no means an objective measure of my reasons to playing or quitting.

Your assertion that a middle-of-the-road, pleases everyone solution is the best answer is the result of GIGO. You have no data from which to draw conclusions and you openly refuse to accept conclusions provided from people with way more data than you.

People such as? You? Where is your data that I don’t have access to? Or do you mean what ANet has said publicly? Obviously that all needs to be taken with a whole Vial of Salt, because it’s marketing. Not that I’m saying they are stating inaccurate facts, but there are many ways they can cherry-pick facts and present them in a favorable light to project the narrative that they want. for example they have never said exactly how many people raid regularly, or how many play other modes, they’ve just made vague statements about the raiding population near launch being better than in “other games,” where raiding populations are traditionally abysmal.

Obviously ANet knows certain numbers and reaches certain conclusions from them, and you can sleep soundly knowing that I’m incapable of convincing them to go against those numbers. There is no need for you to shout me down if I’m completely wrong here.

The only reason you should have any concern, feel any need to convince me to shut the kitten up, is if their numbers do actually point to a flaw, kitten, a need that is not being serviced, in which case they would want to act to correct that imbalance. I’m not trying to convince them to do something, I’m confident they will decide that on their own. My only goal is to shape what that “something” should be, into something that would satisfy my tastes (and I believe those of others), in a way that various other “course corrections” in the past have failed to do. I would rather we have something more like Champ Bags, and less like “New Player Experience.”

Of course if their internals show that no change is needed, no change will occur, and you’ll have nothing to worry about.

. . .and yet you worry, so very much.

Ohoni.6057:

. . .and yet you worry, so very much.

not an argument

Yeah, didn’t really need one, which was my point. I’m not trying to argue, I’m trying to have a constructive discussion about the path forward.

Ohoni.6057:

Yeah, didn’t really need one, which was my point. I’m not trying to argue, I’m trying to have a constructive discussion about the path forward.

The path forward is simple, raid or don’t. Get raid rewards by raiding or don’t.

If you are in it for lore Youtube & /wiki are your friends. There’s 0 lore in the fights themselves meaning any and all calls for an easy mode to experience lore are hogwash.

I simply cannot wrap my head around this concept that raids (and therefore the rewards that go with them) is restrictive or unavailable to portions of the player base.

Until 3 weeks ago, I had never done a raid. Not even in any other MMO. My guild has only about 7 active members – we couldn’t even fill a squad if we wanted. However, thus content that I hadn’t experienced and I wanted to do it.

So I joined another guild. I didn’t leave my current one, Anet doesn’t make me. Anet allows me to join 5. I still maintain most of my time playing with my original 6 friends.

I practiced. I learned. I joined pug squads. I watched videos. I got better. I currently have 4 of 9 bosses killed.

This is exactly the intended experience, right? I’m enjoying it very much. I’m working towards the envoy armor exactly as intended.

What part of the experience/lore/reward is being denied to any player? How can you possibly debate that Anet is restricting anyone from exactly what I did?

If you want the rewards, go get them. If you want to see the lore, go see it. Nothing is stopping you from doing it. No one is discriminating against you. You’re just upset that the rewards come from content that you don’t enjoy. So dont play it if you don’t enjoy it. There is literally no content in this game that is “locked” behind anything. It’s all available to anyone that wants to do it.

The path forward is simple, raid or don’t. Get raid rewards by raiding or don’t.

If you are in it for lore Youtube & /wiki are your friends. There’s 0 lore in the fights themselves meaning any and all calls for an easy mode to experience lore are hogwash.

and I’ve explained why those “solutions” are insufficient for me, as have others, and I believe there is a significant population feels that way too. My role here is not to convince anyone that these numbers exist, if they do then ANet is aware of them, and if they don’t, then ANet is aware of that too. If they don’t exist, as you believe, then nothing will change. All I’m doing is trying to help shape the path forward if those numbers do exist.

I practiced. I learned. I joined pug squads. I watched videos. I got better. I currently have 4 of 9 bosses killed.

It worked out for you because it suited the sort of gameplay that you apparently enjoy. It does not work out for everyone. Those people who are not well suited to the current raids are seeking solutions that they would be well suited towards. You don’t have to understand why they feel this way, just accept that they do, and either seek to help them enjoy the game more, or try to hinder them.

Ohoni.6057:

The path forward is simple, raid or don’t. Get raid rewards by raiding or don’t.

If you are in it for lore Youtube & /wiki are your friends. There’s 0 lore in the fights themselves meaning any and all calls for an easy mode to experience lore are hogwash.

and I’ve explained why those “solutions” are insufficient for me, as have others, and I believe there is a significant population feels that way too. My role here is not to convince anyone that these numbers exist, if they do then ANet is aware of them, and if they don’t, then ANet is aware of that too. If they don’t exist, as you believe, then nothing will change. All I’m doing is trying to help shape the path forward if those numbers do exist.

Great! You can explain why you think they are not sufficient all you want, its pretty clear Anet does not agree with you as they have not deviated from their design choice in the past 8 months now. If raids were in such a bad spot (as per the rest of HoT) they would have already shifted the reward structure with the massive HoT overhaul patch that happened 3 months ago.

Great! You can explain why you think they are not sufficient all you want, its pretty clear Anet does not agree with you as they have not deviated from their design choice in the past 8 months now.

That’s some extremely faulty logic there. We all know how long the lead time is between ANet deciding to do something and when it actually launches, and how they hate talking about things until they’ve “gone gold.” It’s possible they decided to do an easy mode before even launching the first wing, but just haven’t gotten around to finishing it yet. We know only three things on the topic.

1. Around Wing 2’s release, a developer indicated that they were aware there was a push for some form of easy mode, and were considering their options.

2. Wing 3 is considered much easier than previous wings, probably a coincidence, possibly deliberately turned that way for various reasons.

3. Bobby Stein has assured us that we don’t need to play the current raids to get the story elements for LWs3.

4. The “LWs3 trailer” included an awful lot of content pulled from the raids, and the Living Story updates also tie into the White Mantle storyline on the raids. This coupled with #3 would indicate that they have a way for players to at least experience the raid’s storyline without actually raiding, since otherwise it appears that the LWs3 storyline is WAY too connected to the story of the raids that players would just be able to ignore it.

If raids were in such a bad spot (as per the rest of HoT) they would have already shifted the reward structure with the massive HoT overhaul patch that happened 3 months ago.

Perhaps, except that at the time the raid team was still focused on getting Wing 3 out, and rightly so, while the LS team was focused on getting s3 out, and the team doing the HoT updates were focused on getting the open world maps done, and I believe all of these were valid priorities at that time. But now that Wing 3 is out, and while I’m sure they are still working hard on future s3 updates, they will at least be launching the first part, they likely have some time to spare for a project like this one, relatively speaking.

Ohoni.6057:

We all know how long the lead time is between ANet deciding to do something and when it actually launches

Considering the release of HoT (23rd Oct) and the release of the April patch which corrected the HoT reward rate (19th April) we can safely assume the lead time on these corrections is roughly 6 months.

How, precisely, is this logic ‘extremely faulty’ considering the raid reward model is much less complex than the reward models for the 4 HoT zones and thus a ‘fix’ would take far less time?

Considering the release of HoT (23rd Oct) and the release of the April patch which corrected the HoT reward rate (19th April) we can safely assume the lead time on these corrections is roughly 6 months.

No, we can’t safely assume any such thing, since each change is different, involving different people, and different manhours, and of course being of differing degrees of importance. Some changes they can make start to finish in hours, some in weeks, some in months, some take them a year or more. We don’t know exactly what they intend to do here (if anything), or how long that would take, so a lack of visible progress does not mean anything whatsoever, positive or negative. They’re like a duck on a pond.

Ramoth.9064:

Game has no place for people unwilling to do things.

Raids were introduced exactly because a group of people were unwilling to play it at the same level as others, and wanted the content finetuned to their personal desires.

I see no difference here at all.

Astralporing.1957:

Ramoth.9064:

Game has no place for people unwilling to do things.

Raids were introduced exactly because a group of people were unwilling to play it at the same level as others, and wanted the content finetuned to their personal desires.

I see no difference here at all.

Err no. They were made to be a marketable feature to sell. And they sold well.

Astralporing.1957:

Ramoth.9064:

Game has no place for people unwilling to do things.

Raids were introduced exactly because a group of people were unwilling to play it at the same level as others, and wanted the content finetuned to their personal desires.

I see no difference here at all.

not at all the reason, but i will keep your sentence, because it summarizes perfectly what is happening right now with some people here and on reddit, wanting raid to be turned down for their own personal and selfish desires.

Ramoth.9064:

Astralporing.1957:

Ramoth.9064:

Game has no place for people unwilling to do things.

Raids were introduced exactly because a group of people were unwilling to play it at the same level as others, and wanted the content finetuned to their personal desires.

I see no difference here at all.

Err no. They were made to be a marketable feature to sell. And they sold well.

That is debatable. We kind of know, from NCSoft quarterlies, that the HoT sales were below expectations.

And you don’t know whether people that would like easymode raids are more or less numerous that those that would prefer hardmode ones.

Hypairion.9210:

not at all the reason, but i will keep your sentence, because it summarizes perfectly what is happening right now with some people here and on reddit, wanting raid to be turned down for their own personal and selfish desires.

And raiders are any different here? Oh, please.

That is debatable. We kind of know, from NCSoft quarterlies, that the HoT sales were below expectations.

True, and we know that one of the most common complaints at launch was that HoT’s content was tuned at a higher level of difficulty than many players were comfortable with.

True, and we know that one of the most common complaints at launch was that HoT’s content was tuned at a higher level of difficulty than many players were comfortable with.

irrelevant, open world is designed, by definition, to most people. so it’s okay for it to be turned down, for more people. Raid, from the begenning, were designed for more demanding people, not for people like you. And that’s okay, not everyone has to enjoy all content. Some content can be tuned for some people, and that’s fine.

But i could agree that people could enjoy more relaxing raid encounters, as long as rewards are tuned down too, both in quality and quantity of course. That’s just logical.

irrelevant, open world is designed, by definition, to most people. so it’s okay for it to be turned down, for more people.

Irrelevant, the point was that the general consensus seemed to be that HoT’s content, in general, was too challenging already, and raids are significantly moreso. Given that, wouldn’t it stand to reason that more of those players would be driven away from the raids with their “highly challenging content” than would be attracted by that “feature?”

Raid, from the begenning, were designed for more demanding people, not for people like you. And that’s okay, not everyone has to enjoy all content. Some content can be tuned for some people, and that’s fine.

You keep repeating this.

And every time you do, we all agree with you.

This statement is 100% correct.

You don’t need to keep repeating it.

But the bit that you’re leaving out is, that even though some content CAN be tuned for a specific audience, it’s also important to not leave out the remaining audience, blocking them off from story content and rewards that they might enjoy having access to. If you’re going to say “this challenge level is not tuned for you,” then you need to follow it up with “but this other challenge level IS tuned to you, because you’re valued customers.”

So yes, have the highly tuned content for " more demanding people," but also have a lower-tuned version for “less demanding people.” That’s all we’re asking for here.

But i could agree that people could enjoy more relaxing raid encounters, as long as rewards are tuned down too, both in quality and quantity of course. That’s just logical.

Quantity, yes. Quality, no. There is no justification for a quantity argument beyond “I want to punish lower challenge players for not enjoying the type of content I enjoy.” Players should not be restricted from having access to the armor skins that they want just because they do not enjoy highlight challenging content in a game which is mostly NOT highly challenging content, and again there is no need for strawman arguments about how the bar should be lowered even below the current bareline difficulty.

Irrelevant, the point was that the general consensus seemed to be that HoT’s content, in general, was too challenging already, and raids are significantly moreso. Given that, wouldn’t it stand to reason that more of those players would be driven away from the raids with their “highly challenging content” than would be attracted by that “feature?”

your opinion again. My opinion is that more people were attracted by this feature than the contrary. you and i don’t have numbers to back up our claims, that’s all.

You keep repeating this.

And every time you do, we all agree with you.

This statement is 100% correct.

You don’t need to keep repeating it.

But the bit that you’re leaving out is, that even though some content CAN be tuned for a specific audience, it’s also important to not leave out the remaining audience, blocking them off from story content and rewards that they might enjoy having access to. If you’re going to say “this challenge level is not tuned for you,” then you need to follow it up with “but this other challenge level IS tuned to you, because you’re valued customers.”

So yes, have the highly tuned content for " more demanding people," but also have a lower-tuned version for “less demanding people.” That’s all we’re asking for here.

but i agree with lower-tuned version, for lore or story or teaching purpose. But you and I know that you don’t care about that, you want an easy way to legendary armor, and that i will never agree with you.

Quantity, yes. Quality, no. There is no justification for a quantity argument beyond “I want to punish lower challenge players for not enjoying the type of content I enjoy.” Players should not be restricted from having access to the armor skins that they want just because they do not enjoy highlight challenging content in a game which is mostly NOT highly challenging content, and again there is no need for strawman arguments about how the bar should be lowered even below the current bareline difficulty.

And there is no justification for a quality argument, except your own selfish desire. So far, you’re among the tiny minority that want full raid reward (in quality) in easy mode raid. Again, there is no barrier to prevent you for having raid reward, except that you dont want to raid. That’s okay, but stop asking for raid rewards. You’re the one talking about that since so many months now. We all know your points, there is nothing new.

your opinion again. My opinion is that more people were attracted by this feature than the contrary. you and i don’t have numbers to back up our claims, that’s all.

What’s the basis of your claim though? I cited the rationale of mine, that a lot more people were critical of HoT’s difficulty level than were praising it, and that the sales for the expansion were relatively flat. I’m open to the idea that I’m wrong on this one, but I don’t think it’s as simple as the “50/50, opinions cancel out” scenario you present.

but i agree with lower-tuned version, for lore or story or teaching purpose. But you and I know that you don’t care about that, you want an easy way to legendary armor, and that i will never agree with you.

I do want both, and I would be unsatisfied if I only got either without the other. I reject the idea of an easier raid as a “teaching” raid entirely, because that implies that all players should eventually “graduate” to the existing raids, and I don’t think that should be the case. Not every player has any interest in the sort of experience that the existing raids provide, and the easy mode should be designed as a 100% feature complete mode, not just a stepping stone to “the real version.” Players can choose to use it to train up, but they should not feel that they are missing out on anything if that is not how they want to use the feature. Easy mode raids should be an equal partner to hard mode, not a second class citizen.

Again, there is no barrier to prevent you for having raid reward, except that you dont want to raid.

And that is the barrier. This is a game, and players should never feel encouraged to do content that they know they will not enjoy. NOBODY ever benefits from players not enjoying the game they’re playing.

That’s okay, but stop asking for raid rewards.

No.

You’re the one talking about that since so many months now.

Yes, and for many months to come, until something is done to resolve the situation.

We all know your points, there is nothing new.

Then stop trying to promote “easy raids should not have a path to good rewards” as if it were a point of fact. We all know your opinion on the matter as well, and I only raise mine when you insist on yours, so stop saying that easy raids shouldn’t have raid rewards and I’ll stop saying that they should, simple as that.

I do want both, and I would be unsatisfied if I only got either without the other.

yes, you’re greedy wanting both, we know it. It’s a game, you don’t have to have all. i dont like pvp or wvw, so i won’t have these rewards. And that’s fine.

Players can choose to use it to train up, but they should not feel that they are missing out on anything if that is not how they want to use the feature. Easy mode raids should be an equal partner to hard mode, not a second class citizen.

except that with your solution to easy mode raid, it’s impossible to train (no mechanism, no wipe etc…). And story (or easy mode raid) could be the same as low level fractal or story dungeon (that works for reward too)

And that is the barrier. This is a game, and players should never feel encouraged to do content that they know they will not enjoy. NOBODY ever benefits from players not enjoying the game they’re playing.

so don’t do it. Again, i don’t do things i dislike. But your problem is the reward, the carrot. you want it, but dont want to do the things needed to have it.

Yes, and for many months to come, until something is done to resolve the situation.

be patient then, because there is no situation to be resolved..

Then stop trying to promote “easy raids should not have a path to good rewards” as if it were a point of fact. We all know your opinion on the matter as well, and I only raise mine when you insist on yours, so stop saying that easy raids shouldn’t have raid rewards and I’ll stop saying that they should, simple as that.

I’ll stop when you stop ^^

yes, you’re greedy wanting both, we know it. It’s a game, you don’t have to have all. i dont like pvp or wvw, so i won’t have these rewards. And that’s fine.

It’s not greedy. It’s reasonable. You want both too, the only difference is that you’re already getting them, and you want to keep OTHER players from having them too. That’s greedy.

i dont like pvp or wvw, so i won’t have these rewards. And that’s fine.

And it’s fine that you’re fine with that, but if a different player really wanted those rewards but didn’t want to play those modes, then it would also be fine for him to ask for alternate ways of earning them. It’s all fine.

except that with your solution to easy mode raid, it’s impossible to train (no mechanism, no wipe etc…).

We’ve been over this, I want to maintain all the mechanisms, just reduce the penalties for missing them. It’s like sparring, you still punch each other, you just do so lightly and with padding so that it doesn’t deal any real damage. If someone just wants to have fun sparring, then they can do so. If someone wants to take it seriously and use it to train for an actual fight, then they can do that too, knowing that if they take a hit to the head, it may not hurt, but that if it were the real thing that would hurt bad, so they should get better and not let that happen again.

I’m flexibile as to the easy mode I would be happy with, it doesn’t have to be that way, but that’s how I’d prefer to see it, designed in such a way that if a party does easy mode wearing relatively junk gear, and performs it perfectly, that video of their performance would be identical to a video of people beating it on hard mode in Ascended. The only difference would be in the tuning, the enemy would deal less damage on big attacks, and require less DPS to kill. The mechanics would all exist, they would just not be as punishing if you fail them.

And story (or easy mode raid) could be the same as low level fractal or story dungeon (that works for reward too)

It could, and I’d be prepared to accept that, but if that’s the direction they went, I’d still be pushing for access to Envoy armor via some other means. I do not believe that you should ever have to clear hard mode raids if you just want the Envoy armor, you should have other options. I feel easy raids would be the simplest alternative, but other alternatives would be possible.

so don’t do it. Again, i don’t do things i dislike. But your problem is the reward, the carrot. you want it, but dont want to do the things needed to have it.

Yes, that much is has been stated perfectly clearly and does not need restating, which is why I want alternate ways of earning it.

I’ll stop when you stop ^^

No, you don’t get to play that card, because you’re the one that starts it. Again, if you never say “you can’t have the same rewards,” then I have no reason to say, “no, but I should.” You, or someone on your side of things, is always the one to start that circular argument, I never bring it up in a vacuum. Don’t start none, won’t be none.

Ohoni.6057:

Great! You can explain why you think they are not sufficient all you want, its pretty clear Anet does not agree with you as they have not deviated from their design choice in the past 8 months now.

That’s some extremely faulty logic there. We all know how long the lead time is between ANet deciding to do something and when it actually launches, and how they hate talking about things until they’ve “gone gold.” It’s possible they decided to do an easy mode before even launching the first wing, but just haven’t gotten around to finishing it yet. We know only three things on the topic.

1. Around Wing 2’s release, a developer indicated that they were aware there was a push for some form of easy mode, and were considering their options.

2. Wing 3 is considered much easier than previous wings, probably a coincidence, possibly deliberately turned that way for various reasons.

3. Bobby Stein has assured us that we don’t need to play the current raids to get the story elements for LWs3.

4. The “LWs3 trailer” included an awful lot of content pulled from the raids, and the Living Story updates also tie into the White Mantle storyline on the raids. This coupled with #3 would indicate that they have a way for players to at least experience the raid’s storyline without actually raiding, since otherwise it appears that the LWs3 storyline is WAY too connected to the story of the raids that players would just be able to ignore it.

If raids were in such a bad spot (as per the rest of HoT) they would have already shifted the reward structure with the massive HoT overhaul patch that happened 3 months ago.

Perhaps, except that at the time the raid team was still focused on getting Wing 3 out, and rightly so, while the LS team was focused on getting s3 out, and the team doing the HoT updates were focused on getting the open world maps done, and I believe all of these were valid priorities at that time. But now that Wing 3 is out, and while I’m sure they are still working hard on future s3 updates, they will at least be launching the first part, they likely have some time to spare for a project like this one, relatively speaking.

1) Source ?
2) If it’s so easy, why are you here complaining still ?
3) Something every raider has been saying since day 1, but you paranoia agents have been dead set against believing
4) Or you know those current events, that feature bandits threatening assassinations……Those are involved but hey lets just jump the shark. Let’s just pretend that everyone in the universe magically forgot about both the shining blade and the white mantle existing.

Now onto the rest of your nonsense…Good to know you know the exact details of every project anet is/has/was/will work on and their exact timetable. Not that it surprises me at all. You’ve already been called out by gaile when it comes to this before, so please stop.

1) Source ?

Can’t provide it. It’s somewhere on the Internets, a dev post on a reddit thread or somesuch. It happened, but I have no link, ignore it if that makes you feel better, but it doesn’t make it not true.

2) If it’s so easy, why are you here complaining still ?

Because Wing 3 is only one of three wings, and wings 1 and 2 haven’t gotten any easier. Yet. My goal is not “to beat something, anything that is called a raid,” it’s to beat the entire existing raid storyline, and to complete all the objectives needed to unlock the Experimental armor.

3) Something every raider has been saying since day 1, but you paranoia agents have been dead set against believing

Yes, and out paranoia seems to have potentially been validated by point #4.

4) Or you know those current events, that feature bandits threatening assassinations……Those are involved but hey lets just jump the shark.

It’s all or nothing. If the future plot of the LS involves the White Mantle in ANY way, then it’s impossible to argue that the raid’s storyline is not integral to that. It would be like arguing that the Scarlet Briar storyline had nothing to do with the LS moving beyond that. Either LWs3 has NOTHING whatsoever to do with the White Mantle, OR it is intricately linked to the raid story, which would make Bobby Stein’s comments on the matter inaccurate and the “paranoia agents” correct. We’ll see in a few days which is which.

Ohoni.6057:

1) Source ?

Can’t provide it. It’s somewhere on the Internets, a dev post on a reddit thread or somesuch. It happened, but I have no link, ignore it if that makes you feel better, but it doesn’t make it not true.

2) If it’s so easy, why are you here complaining still ?

Because Wing 3 is only one of three wings, and wings 1 and 2 haven’t gotten any easier. Yet. My goal is not “to beat something, anything that is called a raid,” it’s to beat the entire existing raid storyline, and to complete all the objectives needed to unlock the Experimental armor.

3) Something every raider has been saying since day 1, but you paranoia agents have been dead set against believing

Yes, and out paranoia seems to have potentially been validated by point #4.

4) Or you know those current events, that feature bandits threatening assassinations……Those are involved but hey lets just jump the shark.

It’s all or nothing. If the future plot of the LS involves the White Mantle in ANY way, then it’s impossible to argue that the raid’s storyline is not integral to that. It would be like arguing that the Scarlet Briar storyline had nothing to do with the LS moving beyond that. Either LWs3 has NOTHING whatsoever to do with the White Mantle, OR it is intricately linked to the raid story, which would make Bobby Stein’s comments on the matter inaccurate and the “paranoia agents” correct. We’ll see in a few days which is which.

If I recall correctly, A-net has stated that the very beginning of LS3 will give recaps/introductions on who the white mantle are and what they are doing etc…

The people who raid and the people who enter empty raid instances are only experiencing the introductory lore slightly sooner. But it will inevitably come to all.

Razor.9872:

If I recall correctly, A-net has stated that the very beginning of LS3 will give recaps/introductions on who the white mantle are and what they are doing etc…

Just as a movie recap of LS1 from that Priory NPC in LA was the same as actually playing through it. Right.

Razor.9872:

The people who raid and the people who enter empty raid instances are only experiencing the introductory lore slightly sooner. But it will inevitably come to all.

See above.

If I recall correctly, A-net has stated that the very beginning of LS3 will give recaps/introductions on who the white mantle are and what they are doing etc…

Recaps are completely worthless though. If the LWs3 story does tie into the White Mantle, they can’t just say “well you don’t have to actually play the raids, because we’ll recap it for you,” that’s utter nonsense. Either it ties into the raid story or it doesn’t. They’ve claimed it doesn’t, but then a lot of the s3 promo material indicates that it does, we’ll find out which of the two was misleading in a couple days.

Ohoni.6057:

Irrelevant, the point was that the general consensus seemed to be that HoT’s content, in general, was too challenging already, and raids are significantly moreso. Given that, wouldn’t it stand to reason that more of those players would be driven away from the raids with their “highly challenging content” than would be attracted by that “feature?”

The general consensus was that the open world maps took to much time and required to much investment. I can clear any wing comfortably within the time span of any hot map cycle. Not only that I can drop out and attempt the next day without a problem.

So yes, have the highly tuned content for " more demanding people," but also have a lower-tuned version for “less demanding people.” That’s all we’re asking for here.

No you are asking for rewards. We can all tell you do not care about raids.

Quantity, yes. Quality, no. There is no justification for a quantity argument beyond “I want to punish lower challenge players for not enjoying the type of content I enjoy.” Players should not be restricted from having access to the armor skins that they want just because they do not enjoy highlight challenging content in a game which is mostly NOT highly challenging content, and again there is no need for strawman arguments about how the bar should be lowered even below the current bareline difficulty.

False, it is a perfectly fine justification if I say I like having different exclusive skins for different types of content. I like the bragging rights, again a stupid title or medal that nobody wants I cannot brag with. I like to be incentivized with exclusive rewards in order to play content. You can state your experience, but it doesnt say a thing to the players that want exclusive rewards.

In your scenario we instead want only people that put lots of time in the game or are skilled to have nice skins? ? Why are you as a player that puts a lot of time in the game more deserving? With your line of logic all wardrobe skins should be immediately unlocked or with very little effort.

We get it, you are unskilled and usually you unlock skins by putting in alot of time. Personally I do not want Arenanet to dilute the value of the raid rewards by making them easy to get. In this case not everybody can be happy about everything mate. In fact our hapiness is mutually exclusive regarding raid rewards. Given the target audience for raids, I think we can all make an educated guess which one of us will be satisfied.

The general consensus was that the open world maps took to much time and required to much investment. I can clear any wing comfortably within the time span of any hot map cycle. Not only that I can drop out and attempt the next day without a problem.

All true, but also all separate from the argument that the HoT content was too difficult, which was also going on at the time. I still have guildies that won’t go into the Magus Falls maps because the enemies are too deadly.

So yes, have the highly tuned content for " more demanding people," but also have a lower-tuned version for “less demanding people.” That’s all we’re asking for here.

No you are asking for rewards. We can all tell you do not care about raids.

No, I’m asking for both. I can’t be held accountable to what you choose to imagine.

False, it is a perfectly fine justification if I say I like having different exclusive skins for different types of content.

And fair enough that you should feel that way, but it’s no justification for preventing other players from having that skin. Your right to feel like a precious snowflake ends at someone else’s right to have the skins they want too.

I like the bragging rights, again a stupid title or medal that nobody wants I cannot brag with.

That’s just patently false. Bragging is based on having accomplished something. If you are bragging, then it is because you completed difficult content that another person did not. A title would display this accomplishment just as well as a fancy new skin. If all you want is a fancy skin that other people do not, then that is not bragging, that is greed, and has nothing to do with your accomplishments or talents.

At the end of the day though, neither is a positive behavior to encourage.

In your scenario we instead want only people that put lots of time in the game or are skilled to have nice skins? ? Why are you as a player that puts a lot of time in the game more deserving? With your line of logic all wardrobe skins should be immediately unlocked or with very little effort.

Nope. That can be your line of logic if you like, but it is not mine and I do not agree with it.

We get it, you are unskilled and usually you unlock skins by putting in alot of time. I do not want you to dilute the value of the raid rewards by making them easy to get. Not everybody can be happy about everything mate. In fact our hapiness is mutually exclusive regarding raid rewards.

And I’m fine with that, so long as your happiness does not get in the way of mine. If both groups cannot be happy at once, then the larger group, the one containing more members, should be the one made happy. Pretty much by necessity, that would not be the group that wants to keep rewards exclusive from everyone else. If you cannot be happy about the things you have unless other people are unhappy from not having them, then you do not deserve to be happy.

Given the target audience for raids, I’m pretty certain But given the target audience for raids, I think we can all make an educated guess what is gonna happen.

So long as you remember that “the target audience for raids” is only a tiny fragment of the overall population of the game, and making “the target audience for raids” happy at the expense of those other players is a net negative result for Arenanet.

Astralporing.1957:

Razor.9872:

If I recall correctly, A-net has stated that the very beginning of LS3 will give recaps/introductions on who the white mantle are and what they are doing etc…

Just as a movie recap of LS1 from that Priory NPC in LA was the same as actually playing through it. Right.

Razor.9872:

The people who raid and the people who enter empty raid instances are only experiencing the introductory lore slightly sooner. But it will inevitably come to all.

See above.

And absolutely nothing in game is stopping you from enjoying the raid. You yourself are though. Have a think about that.

There’s been no proof that the group who are unhappy with raids are larger than the group happy with raids.

Most of the casual friends I know that don’t raid don’t even care about raids, just like they don’t care about WvW or PvP.

Even on the forums it’s the same few people complaining about raids (Ohoni, Astral etc).

Until there’s definite proof this is just conjecture.

fishball.7204:

There’s been no proof that the group who are unhappy with raids are larger than the group happy with raids.

Most of the casual friends I know that don’t raid don’t even care about raids, just like they don’t care about WvW or PvP.

Even on the forums it’s the same few people complaining about raids (Ohoni, Astral etc).

Until there’s definite proof this is just conjecture.

This. If my guild is anything to go by we are 200 strong glued to raiding all the time.

Ramoth.9064

And absolutely nothing in game is stopping you from enjoying the raid. You yourself are though. Have a think about that.

exactly!

ohoni
your reasoning just always breaks down to the same frame:
“i want that everyone can enjoy raids”

while completely ignoring that “everyone” also includes the ones that will NOT like it when raids get different difficulties.

if someone states “we would not like different raid difficulties”
you simply state “different raid difficulties would not affect your challenging content in any way”, even though we state “it would, we would NOT LIKE IT”

dont you think that its a LITTLE bit narrow minded that you just draw a conclusion from yourself on everyone else?

Ohoni.6057

So long as you remember that “the target audience for raids” is only a tiny fragment of the overall population of the game, and making “the target audience for raids” happy at the expense of those other players is a net negative result for Arenanet.

even if the people that like raids would be “a tiny fragment” (which is not the case,), 99% of the content in the game is “casual+easy” with different difficulties and everyone that does not like challenging content should be over satisfied.

why you want to be 100% of the content to be easy available, while there are 1-xx% that would not like that??? stop being egoistic!

if there wouldn’t be any easy content in the game, i would REALLY love your suggestion. a game needs versality, it needs to appeal to many different players.
but most of the game IS easy content!!!!

you just want everything for you and your friends hhm?
now please dont answer “i want it for everyone”… you clearly dont.

many players love challenging not easy content that can’t be set to easy mode
why you dont want to grant them this? they also grant you easy content!!
that way everyone is happy

And absolutely nothing in game is stopping you from enjoying the raid. You yourself are though. Have a think about that.

Umm, enjoyment doesn’t work like that. You can’t just say “I’m going to enjoy this now!” If you don’t enjoy something, you don’t enjoy it. The mechanics of the content are what is preventing you from enjoying it, not your own choices.

There’s been no proof that the group who are unhappy with raids are larger than the group happy with raids.

If you want to believe that, so be it. If it’s true, then you have no reason to fear us discussing alternatives.

Even on the forums it’s the same few people complaining about raids (Ohoni, Astral etc).

And it’s the same people defending them. Only a small portion of the population really participates on the forums.

while completely ignoring that “everyone” also includes the ones that will NOT like it when raids get different difficulties.

Well, it’s not so much “ignoring” them as that they don’t really factor into it. They don’t want to raid now, they won’t want to raid after easy mode is added, there really isn’t anything that can be done about raids that would make them happy, so what are you proposing should be done with them?

if someone states “we would not like different raid difficulties”
you simply state “different raid difficulties would not affect your challenging content in any way”, even though we state “it would, we would NOT LIKE IT”

Well that’s just silly. It’s adding a new option. If you’re being upset about them adding a new option, one which you don’t have to interact with at all, then there’s nothing that can or should be done about that.

even if the people that like raids would be “a tiny fragment” (which is not the case,), 99% of the content in the game is “casual+easy” with different difficulties and everyone that does not like challenging content should be over satisfied.

But the point is that players should not be blocked off from content or rewards like that. Basically, if most of the players enjoy playing a certain way, then ALL of the content in the game should be available to those players, so that they never feel that there is anything out of their reach. You can have alternate difficulty modes, things that are “the exact same, only harder,” sop that people who like challenge can do challenge, but there should not be whole areas that cannot be accessed at the same difficulty level as the rest of the game.

you just want everything for you and your friends hhm?
now please dont answer “i want it for everyone”… you clearly dont.

I think you believe that you have a logical position here. Let me try to explain why this is not true.

Say there are two children, and an adult. One of the children is given five cookies. The other child is given six cookies. The one who only receives five cookies asks if he could have a 6th cookie as well. The adult replies that this is no trouble, he has plenty of cookies, and begins to offer one to the child. The child who already has six cookies starts to yell.

“You can’t give him another cookie! I’m the one with six cookies, I’m special! If you let him have six cookies too, then I won’t feel special anymore! You’re taking away my special feelings!”

But that child does not deserve to feel more special than the other, they both deserve to feel special, and they both deserve an equal number of cookies. If the child with six cookies can only feel special if he has things that the other child does not, then he is a naughty child, and does not deserve to be validated for his negative feelings.

Ohoni.6057:

I think you believe that you have a logical position here. Let me try to explain why this is not true.

Say there are two children, and an adult. One of the children is given five cookies. The other child is given six cookies. The one who only receives five cookies asks if he could have a 6th cookie as well. The adult replies that this is no trouble, he has plenty of cookies, and begins to offer one to the child. The child who already has six cookies starts to yell.

“You can’t give him another cookie! I’m the one with six cookies, I’m special! If you let him have six cookies too, then I won’t feel special anymore! You’re taking away my special feelings!”

But that child does not deserve to feel more special than the other, they both deserve to feel special, and they both deserve an equal number of cookies. If the child with six cookies can only feel special if he has things that the other child does not, then he is a naughty child, and does not deserve to be validated for his negative feelings.

u already have 6 cookies bro
one is just a flavor you dont like
other kid’s doin fine with that flavor cos he’s a champ

Ohoni.6057

If you’re being upset about them adding a new option, one which you don’t have to interact with at all, then there’s nothing that can or should be done about that.

and again, exactly as i wrote before
you still ignore that players do get affected by it from their point of view.
if a easy mode would be added to the content they like, they would not like it that much anymore.

Ohoni.6057

But the point is that players should not be blocked off from content or rewards like that.

and again, exactly as me and many others wrote before, YOU ARE NOT BLOCKED OFF IT.

if we would take over your point of view, we would be blocked off all content we do not like.

your cookie analogy is just completely out of context…
raids CREATED equality, by satisfying players that requested hard content without easy mode for a long time.

Sarrs.4831

u already have 6 cookies bro
one is just a flavor you dont like
other kid’s doin fine with that flavor cos he’s a champ

exactly^^ even though i would not say because he’s a champ.
both kids got 6 cookies. both of them like some, but maybe dislike others.

the one enjoys raids, the other one does not
the one enjoys living story, the other one does not

the one is playing raids, loving challenging content
the other one is playing living story loving easy content/story

most of the players playing hard content accept there is easy content
—>some of them dont like easy content —> they dont play easy content
most of the players playing easy content accept there is hard content
-->some of them dont like hard content —> they dont play hard content
--—> everyone is equal

but you ohoni want only easy content (or content where a easy mode is available), making you one of the “few” that is NOT accepting that there is hard content WITHOUT the option for a easy mode —> no equality.

i love playing mostly all of the content, depending on the mood im in. sometimes i just want to enjoy the beautiful guildwars 2 world without having to focus —> i play living world, open world and the cool stuff that is out there.
but thats only me. only because i think that content is cool it does not mean everyone got that opinion.
many friends i got do not play open world at all.

but if they want a skin, that they only get from open world, they have to play open world!
and if you want a skin, that you get only from raids, you have to play raids!

if they would take your point of view (some of them do) they would say “they are blocked off it” because they dont like it—>they dont want to play it—>they dont play it.

but no one forces them to play open world, exactly as no one forces you to play raids.

u already have 6 cookies bro
one is just a flavor you dont like
other kid’s doin fine with that flavor cos he’s a champ

No, again by changing the analogy you have ruined the lesson of the analogy. That doesn’t mean that the original lesson of the analogy was any less valid to the situation.

But let’s roll with it. Let’s say you’re right, let’s say that one of the six cookies handed out was a peanut butter cookie, and one of the children was mildly allergic to peanut butter. He wasn’t so allergic that it would kill him or anything, but it would make him extremely uncomfortable. He really has no interest in eating that cookie, but would appreciate having a full six cookies that he could eat. He asks the adult for a different cookie, and the adult replies that’s fine, he has other cookies to offer. The other child cries out:

“No! You can’t give him that other cookie, because I like Peanut Butter, and if he doesn’t then he shouldn’t have six cookies like I have! It will make me feel less special if I can eat all of mine and he can too!”

The adult replies that the child is behaving like a spoiled brat, that child still has his six cookies, and can eat that peanut butter cookie if he wants, nobody is taking it away from him, and the other child having six cookies too costs him nothing.

if a easy mode would be added to the content they like, they would not like it that much anymore.

And again, nothing can be done about that. Right now, they have the mode they enjoy. Right now, another group does not have the mode that they would enjoy. Adding that mode in does not take anything away from that first group. If they get upset about that, then that’s just too bad, I’m sorry but I don’t understand any other way to look at it.

exactly^^ even though i would not say because he’s a champ.
both kids got 6 cookies. both of them like some, but maybe dislike others.

The question is not one of pure like/dislike, it is of being able to tolerate the content. Even if a raid-loving player dislikes easy content, he CAN do it, without any practice, just coast right through it, in a fraction of the time that it would take a non-raider to complete the requirements of raiding. They are not equivalent.

but if they want a skin, that they only get from open world, they have to play open world!
and if you want a skin, that you get only from raids, you have to play raids!

Yeah, again not equivalent.

This thread was a fun read.

I’m impressed that you typed up a small novel on this, Ohoni. It got a few laughs out of me. You’re quite the comedian for someone on the spectrum.

What I’m taking away from what you’re saying is that you want an easy mode and a normal mode with parity between the rewards. The raiders would do the regular raid for the “challenge” and the rest could do easy mode.

The one thing that’s bothering me with this flawless solution is this.
What would be the point in doing normal mode? Do you not understand how negative of an impact that this would have on those of us that do raid? How much that this would devalue raid rewards, legendary armor included?
I can’t say that there is much prestige in raid skins, but it’s there. Those skins have an added value to them because we had to overcome a challenge to obtain them. If any brainless open world player could get them, they’d lose that appeal. Legendary armor will have a similar value, disallowing those kinds of players from simply dumping time and gold gathered from map hopping in Auric Basin all day to get their armor.

I can get behind an easy mode. IF and only IF there are no rewards attached to it.
No insights, no armor progression, no skins. Any and all arguments that are for this kind of reward parity are baseless whining and should be ignored.
Players want to feel rewarded for their efforts. Giving rewards to all simply because they want to participate is a slap in the face to those players.

You can’t have it all.
Now get good or accept that there will be some things in this game that you’ll never have.

Guys, I think we should stop arguing with Ohoni here. The opposed views are made and clear. It’s just running in circles reading this stuff, that stuff and completely unreasonable analogies. Oh yeah, let us all use less analogies because they mostly don’t fit!

I’ve met enough people in pugs over the time now to realize that there are many players enjoying raids right now and they have never thought they will. Ohoni is one special snowflake never willing to try and definitely never will enjoy raids. Sure, he isn’t alone out there but he represents a minority not even close to the amount of the raid playerbase. I respect that but on the other hand I don’t respect the wanting of rewards without putting effort in certain things, here raids.

Where was Ohoni when Liadri and friends were present during Jenna’s birthday? Where is the anger about T4 fractals giving the best rewards because I doubt Ohoni is able to do them. Ohoni would also cry for change if Anet would put a new armor connected to run Arah P4 several times. He is not like many of others who will grumble for a while and then start to get things going or just leave them because we don’t care or don’t see it as an important thing to have fun in a game.

That’s why I think we should stop discussing here and especially exile these wall of texts leading to 0.0% nothing.