Guild Wars 2

Ohoni.6057:

But let’s roll with it. Let’s say you’re right, let’s say that one of the six cookies handed out was a peanut butter cookie, and one of the children was mildly allergic to peanut butter.

did not say that

said you don’t like the raid cookie
didn’t say you were allergic to it

What I’m taking away from what you’re saying is that you want an easy mode and a normal mode with parity between the rewards. The raiders would do the regular raid for the “challenge” and the rest could do easy mode.

Not “parity,” although that is a shockingly common misconception. Almost too common a misconception for people to be making unintentionally.

But no, not parity; parity indicates identical rewards, and while I certainly wouldn’t reject that if offered, I don’t expect it or require it. What I expect is access, that the easy mode would allow access to every reward available in normal mode, but I fully expect it to take more effort to earn them via easy mode, more repetitions of the content, more time spent on it.

You would receive rewards of the same quality as the normal mode, just in lower quantities. This should still give people plenty of motivation to do the normal mode, since it would represent the fastest and easiest path towards those rewards for players willing and able to complete the normal mode.

Those skins have an added value to them because we had to overcome a challenge to obtain them. If any brainless open world player could get them, they’d lose that appeal.

Then that’s just to bad, because that brainless open world player’s desire to have access to that skin obviously trumps your desire to keep it away from him.

You can’t have it all.

You say that I can’t have it all, but apparently you can have it all. Why are you allowed to have it all, while I should not expect it?

Where was Ohoni when Liadri and friends were present during Jenna’s birthday?

Right where I am now, complaining that Liadri was a bit too “get it perfect or die and restart” to be any fun, but ultimately I didn’t personally mind it much because there was zero story attached to the encounter, and the only reward was a mini that I wouldn’t have been displaying even if I had it. If Liadri had gated cool armor, or even a particularly cool weapon skin, I would have been far more vocal about it.

Where is the anger about T4 fractals giving the best rewards because I doubt Ohoni is able to do them.

Again, I made my points on that years ago, but ultimately none of the stuff Fractals offer are things I particularly want, although I do wish more content dropped Ascended gear as often as Fractals do.

Ohoni would also cry for change if Anet would put a new armor connected to run Arah P4 several times.

Depends on how many, really. I’ve beaten it once, and wouldn’t really mind beating it a few times a week for a bit. I also have a ton of those Arah tokens.

did not say that

said you don’t like the raid cookie
didn’t say you were allergic to it

You said “don’t like,” I said "mildly allergic, because your version failed to represent an actual problem with the content beyond simple distaste. Whether you like the raids or not, the fact remains that it puts a burden on people’s time and skill sets that other content does not. You can eat a cookie that you’re mildly allergic to, but it is a far more unpleasant and inconvenient experience than merely not being your favorite flavor.

Ohoni.6057:

You said “don’t like,” I said "mildly allergic, because your version failed to represent an actual problem with the content beyond simple distaste.

well yeh
because there isn’t an actual problem with the content beyond simple distaste

Ohoni.6057:

Whether you like the raids or not, the fact remains that it puts a burden on people’s time and skill sets that other content does not.

so raids are like
rock biscuits?
just don’t eat the rock biscuit

Ohoni.6057:

You can eat a cookie that you’re mildly allergic to, but it is a far more unpleasant and inconvenient experience than merely not being your favorite flavor.

or you can just not eat the biscuit idk i’m not a surgeon

ohoni… your arguments are just sooo irrational…

Ohoni.6057

You would receive rewards of the same quality as the normal mode, just in lower quantities

and exactly THAT is the problem!
you would get the same rewards as others, without putting the same effort into it as they do. you would just spend a few runs more into it, but you would not have to beat the challenge you get the price for!

but i guess viceman is right, we are spinning in circles. ill stop here (this time for sure^^)
waaay too exhausting. ill play the game instead

well yeh
because there isn’t an actual problem with the content beyond simple distaste

No, again, there is a problem. It may not be a problem that applies to you, but that does not mean it’s not a problem.

or you can just not eat the biscuit idk i’m not a surgeon

Which was my entire point. If a person is mildly allergic to something, then he shouldn’t eat it, but that doesn’t mean that he should make due with having less, when a replacement is possible that would allow him to have just as much. If a person is in a position where doing the existing raids would cause him significant distress, then he shouldn’t be doing those raids, but that doesn’t mean he should be missing out on content and rewards, he should have alternate ways of accessing those things, methods which would not cause that distress.

you would get the same rewards as others, without putting the same effort into it as they do.

No, you would only get the same rewards if you put in MORE effort than they do. Not less, not the same, MORE.

Ohoni.6057

No, you would only get the same rewards if you put in MORE effort than they do. Not less, not the same, MORE.

noooooooo! you would not! duuuuude…
you WOULD NOT beat the same challenge as they do…
you would just spend some more time into it by re-doing a easy version more times…
god… im out.

No, you would only get the same rewards if you put in MORE effort than they do. Not less, not the same, MORE.

so many things wrong with what you’re saying / wanting, but just this one : GRINDING is not the same as EFFORT. for you, spamming 1 a few weeks in your easy mode raid is what you’re calling effort. Not for many of us. We will never agree as long as you’ll keep saying that nonsense.

you WOULD NOT beat the same challenge as they do…

no, and who cares about that, but you would be putting forth more effort, because it would take more repetitions of the content.

GRINDING is not the same as EFFORT.

Yes it is. Maybe you’re thinking of the wrong word?

We will never agree as long as you’ll keep saying that nonsense.

What gave you the impression that this ever had anything to do with you agreeing to anything? Your agreement was pretty much off the table from the start, but also conveniently irrelevant to the desired outcome.

Ohoni.6057:

you WOULD NOT beat the same challenge as they do…

no, and who cares about that, but you would be putting forth more effort, because it would take more repetitions of the content.

GRINDING is not the same as EFFORT.

Yes it is. Maybe you’re thinking of the wrong word?

We will never agree as long as you’ll keep saying that nonsense.

What gave you the impression that this ever had anything to do with you agreeing to anything? Your agreement was pretty much off the table from the start, but also conveniently irrelevant to the desired outcome.

You and many of us dont put the same meaning behind effort, that’s all. But i’m pretty sure you’re among the minority here ^^

Keep on arguing for legendary armor with no skill, no effort and spamming 1, and i’m sure many other will keep arguing against you and your illogical desire. The fact that you’re almost alone here should give you a hint…

Ohoni.6057:

no, and who cares about that

ermmm

well you have quite a few people disagreeing with you here

You and many of us dont put the same meaning behind effort, that’s all. But i’m pretty sure you’re among the minority here ^^

Well if we’re talking about the definition of words, “the minority around here” doesn’t amount to much.

Keep on arguing for legendary armor with no skill, no effort and spamming 1, and i’m sure many other will keep arguing against you and your illogical desire.

But that’s not what I’m arguing for, and that you’ve gotten to page 8 and believe that of me shows how little effort you’ve put into understanding where I’m coming from here.

well you have quite a few people disagreeing with you here

Yes, and again, who cares about that? Their disagreement does not entitle them to get their way. Again, this thread is not a vote. The outcome is not determined by how many people line up on each side, and nobody needs your consent here. If ANet decides that a change is worth making, they’ll make it whether you sign off on it or not. I am not seeking your approval here, so what makes you think that I would be?

But that’s not what I’m arguing for, and that you’ve gotten to page 8 and believe that of me shows how little effort you’ve put into understanding where I’m coming from here.

Same rewards in quality in easy mode raid, aka free legendary. You’re mistaking grind versus effort, but that’s not new coming from you. It’s so nice of you to agree that quantities could differ…But for us, quality matters too.

Same rewards in quality in easy mode raid, aka free legendary. You’re mistaking grind versus effort, but that’s not new coming from you. It’s so nice of you to agree that quantities could differ…But for us, quality matters too.

Well, you do not deserve to have a quality of loot that other players cannot have, so if Anet agrees, you’ll just have to make due with sharing.

Ohoni.6057:

Same rewards in quality in easy mode raid, aka free legendary. You’re mistaking grind versus effort, but that’s not new coming from you. It’s so nice of you to agree that quantities could differ…But for us, quality matters too.

Well, you do not deserve to have a quality of loot that other players cannot have, so if Anet agrees, you’ll just have to make due with sharing.

i’m raiding, so i deserve raid rewards. No one is preventing you from doing the same (except yourself of course). i’m happy to see new players raiding, so, see, i’m happy to see raid rewards for more people. All people can have these rewards, no one is denying that from them. but not all are willing to put some efforts, but that their problem.

What makes you believe that someone not willing to play the content deserve the content reward? (except a selfish desire of course).

Ohoni.6057:

I am not seeking your approval here, so what makes you think that I would be?

Ohoni.6057:

I’m trying to have a constructive discussion about the path forward.

that, for starters
not exactly constructive to dismiss peoples’ opinions by saying nobody cares about them

i mean if i came in and just posted “nobody cares what you think ohoni” that wouldn’t exactly be conducive to a constructive discussion about the path forward, would it?

i’m raiding, so i deserve raid rewards.

That’s a tautological argument. There is nothing about raiding that makes you inherently deserving of better rewards. Right now, in the game, raiding offers certain rewards that other content does not. The same is true of killing the Shadow Behemoth in Queensdale. If the patch comes out, and they add some other method of earning the current raid rewards, then players who earn them that way will deserve them exactly as much as you do now.

I’m not saying that you do not currently deserve the rewards you’ve worked towards, but I am saying that you are in no way owed perpetual exclusivity of those rewards from other methods of earning them.

What makes you believe that someone not willing to play the content deserve the content reward? (except a selfish desire of course).

Because this is a game, not a job simulator. It’s not about what people are owed, it’s about what people will enjoy, and if more people will enjoy having something then that is a good thing for the game overall. I would now expect you to raise numerous strawmen that have already been shot down in this thread, but I hope beyond hope that you’re better than that.

that, for starters
not exactly constructive to dismiss peoples’ opinions by saying nobody cares about them

Sure it is. I’m not dismissing your opinion, so much as dismissing that I need your permission for anything. I listen to you, I understand the points you make, and try to accommodate them, but at the end of the day if you’re fundamentally opposed to my core principles on this matter, then there’s no real opportunity for agreement, just one of us will lose and one will win, and at no point will either of us require the other’s surrender.

i mean if i came in and just posted “nobody cares what you think ohoni” that wouldn’t exactly be conducive to a constructive discussion about the path forward, would it?

It would not, although I’ve certainly heard it often enough. Look, if you have actual fresh ideas of how to advance this topic, my ears are open. If all you have to say is “well you have quite a few people disagreeing with you here,” well that doesn’t matter in the slightest.

That’s a tautological argument. There is nothing about raiding that makes you inherently deserving of better rewards. Right now, in the game, raiding offers certain rewards that other content does not. The same is true of killing the Shadow Behemoth in Queensdale. If the patch comes out, and they add some other method of earning the current raid rewards, then players who earn them that way will deserve them exactly as much as you do now.

I’m not saying that you do not currently deserve the rewards you’ve worked towards, but I am saying that you are in no way owed perpetual exclusivity of those rewards from other methods of earning them.

Except there are plenty of mode games having exclusive rewards. That is just normal. Look at fractal skins for examples, or wvw rewards, etc etc. Raid rewards deserve to stay behind raid. But of course, a legendary armor should be obtained behind pvp or wvw for example, or open world pve why not.

Because this is a game, not a job simulator. It’s not about what people are owed, it’s about what people will enjoy, and if more people will enjoy having something then that is a good thing for the game overall. I would now expect you to raise numerous strawmen that have already been shot down in this thread, but I hope beyond hope that you’re better than that.

yes it’s a game, so people should play it. With your logical, no need to play, i will afk at LA and be waiting for the rewards (because maybe i enjoy afk at LA). So if more people enjoy afking, they should be rewarded for that (again, that’s your logic here). You’re just not happy because there is a shiny you will never have (because you’ll never change your mind). And so what? You keep on saying the same arguments over and over. People have shown you the solutions, but you refuse to see it. And we both know what will happen to this thread, again…

Technically more grind is more effort but whether or not that effort is justified is what we’d all disagree with.

For example, it’d be far more effort to spend 20 hours walking around DR in a circle non stop than it would be to clear wing 1 in raids but it’d be a stretch to say that walking around DR in a circle should give you 3 legendary insights.

Easy mode raids would just be semi AFK 111111 since you want EVERYBODY to be able to clear it, it has to be EXTREMELY easy.

To us raiders, such effort does not really deserve any sort of reward when 90% of the game already rewards you for doing the 1111111111 rotation in open world.

Ohoni.6057:

Look, if you have actual fresh ideas of how to advance this topic

facts

those would be muy excellente

Ohoni.6057:

Look, if you have actual fresh ideas of how to advance this topic, my ears are open. If all you have to say is “well you have quite a few people disagreeing with you here,” well that doesn’t matter in the slightest.

We don’t need to advance this topic because we raiders are done here. You alone want easy mode + rewards, we don’t. It’s as simple as it is.
Good thing for me is that you are the only one having such wishes and I highly doubt, no, I’m 100% sure, Anet won’t change anything about the actual accessibility and reward structure of raids in the next 6 months.

Ramoth.9064:

And absolutely nothing in game is stopping you from enjoying the raid.

Nah, raids as they are are stopping me from enjoying them.

Hypairion.9210:

Same rewards in quality in easy mode raid, aka free legendary.

aka strawman.
You have some really nonstandard definition of a word “free”.

Hypairion.9210:

i’m raiding, so i deserve raid rewards.

Sure. Because Anet said so. If Anet decided to introduce easy mode raids with raid rewards tomorrow, anyone doing them would deserve them as much as you would.

TL;DR: The only thing that makes you deserving of those rewards is Anet’s decision. And that is arbitrary and subject to change.

fishball.7204:

To us raiders, such effort does not really deserve any sort of reward

Yes, i get it, you think that only playing the way you like deserves any rewards. I disagree with that way of thinking.
Your way of playing is in no way superior to others.

Astralporing.1957:

Ramoth.9064:

And absolutely nothing in game is stopping you from enjoying the raid.

Nah, raids as they are are stopping me from enjoying them.

Hypairion.9210:

Same rewards in quality in easy mode raid, aka free legendary.

aka strawman.
You have some really nonstandard definition of a word “free”.

Hypairion.9210:

i’m raiding, so i deserve raid rewards.

Sure. Because Anet said so. If Anet decided to introduce easy mode raids with raid rewards tomorrow, anyone doing them would deserve them as much as you would.

TL;DR: The only thing that makes you deserving of those rewards is Anet’s decision. And that is arbitrary and subject to change.

fishball.7204:

To us raiders, such effort does not really deserve any sort of reward

Yes, i get it, you think that only playing the way you like deserves any rewards. I disagree with that way of thinking.
Your way of playing is in no way superior to others.

And your way of thinking that you deserve something is in no way superior to others either. So really the great thing is, there’s a patch coming on Wednesday, most likely with minimal changes to raids, and we’ll get to see you and Ohoni whinge for probably another half year for something that probably won’t happen.

TexZero.7910:

Astralporing.1957:

TexZero.7910:

No but GW2 being a themepark MMO is entirely relevant. In order to attract people who otherwise wouldn’t be interested, they have to change some elements of what you perceive as traditional gameplay. That means challenge and rewards had to be harder, and unique respectively. Any change to that structure whatsoever, threatens not only the integrity of design, but the intention of having such content to begin with.

You do realize that the very same reasoning can be applied to raids as the new content and design change done to the game that was? If, according to it, adding the easy mode raids would be wrong, then adding raids as they are now was wrong as well.

Untrue. The entire game before it was pretty much easy mode with little to no variance in difficulty. Would you like them to go lower ? Because that’s what your asking for when it comes to easy mode raids seeing as there are still people who cannot fathom even walking in Orr as it’s too hard.

The game needed a harder group setting, it has one. We all get that you don’t like that, but your incessant need for rewards doesn’t justify needing to create a dumber version of existing content

Well good thing the devs are looking into “a dumber version of existing content”.

Basically this thread turned into “Ohoni thinks that all the rewards should be avaible for everyone starting with raid rewards, because this is a game not the real life and in a game you shouldn’t work towards something. It should be handed to you on a plate.”

Now in response will I get a short anecdote about cookies? Or maybe about work?

edit: It’s a shame there is no reward for crying on forums. How can you expect to be taken seriously by devs, by anyone if all your ideas are subjective: I don’t want to play raids, but I want the rewards. I want the rewards…

You restrain yourself from playing raids, because you foolishly belive that ANet will one day send a free Legendary Armor set to you?

Ramoth.9064:

And your way of thinking that you deserve something is in no way superior to others either.

Of course. But then, i’m not the one that thinks he deserves more than others, so i’m perfectly fine with that.

Ramoth.9064:

So really the great thing is, there’s a patch coming on Wednesday, most likely with minimal changes to raids, and we’ll get to see you and Ohoni whinge for probably another half year for something that probably won’t happen.

And here you go again, taking enjoyment in the fact that other players don’t have it as well as you do. I’m so sure that this way of thinking is having a real positive effect on the community.

Of course. But then, i’m not the one that thinks he deserves more than others, so i’m perfectly fine with that.

but you think that easy mode raid deserve same rewards as normal raids… that’s the same. same reward for less effort…

And here you go again, taking enjoyment in the fact that other players don’t have it as well as you do. I’m so sure that this way of thinking is having a real positive effect on the community.

i dont think he’s taking enjoyment, it’s just a fact. You and Ohoni would still be there in the forum wanting easy way to have raid rewards. But if we’re talking about taking enjoyment, i’m pretty sure you’ll be pretty pleased if raids were cancelled. such a nice community indeed.

why should there be an easy mode if the real cracks beat valeguardian with only 4 people?

i don’t think we have to do the math for you what that means right? i mean 6 people missing and in this group they only had 1 ele to do the big deeps.

skarpak.8594:

why should there be an easy mode if the real cracks beat valeguardian with only 4 people?

i don’t think we have to do the math for you what that means right? i mean 6 people missing and in this group they only had 1 ele to do the big deeps.

So what? 4 people who know their toons in and out can speed clear it where other people fail with 10 people. How does that change anything about the niveau of raiders in general?
I am fond of playing european football, should I strive to play like and train like Christiano Ronaldo tomorrow?^^

Torolan.5816:

skarpak.8594:

why should there be an easy mode if the real cracks beat valeguardian with only 4 people?

i don’t think we have to do the math for you what that means right? i mean 6 people missing and in this group they only had 1 ele to do the big deeps.

So what? 4 people who know their toons in and out can speed clear it where other people fail with 10 people. How does that change anything about the niveau of raiders in general?
I am fond of playing european football, should I strive to play like and train like Christiano Ronaldo tomorrow?^^

The concept is that the boss is beatable with a 60% drop in allowable productivity. By entering the raid with 250% more power than is actually needed to beat the boss, it is conceptually easy enough as is.

That said, one should not expect to be able to run around wherever they feel like while spamming dodges and auto-attack, but at the same time, there is plenty of room for mistakes or under performance.

Razor.9872:

Torolan.5816:

skarpak.8594:

why should there be an easy mode if the real cracks beat valeguardian with only 4 people?

i don’t think we have to do the math for you what that means right? i mean 6 people missing and in this group they only had 1 ele to do the big deeps.

So what? 4 people who know their toons in and out can speed clear it where other people fail with 10 people. How does that change anything about the niveau of raiders in general?
I am fond of playing european football, should I strive to play like and train like Christiano Ronaldo tomorrow?^^

The concept is that the boss is beatable with a 60% drop in allowable productivity. By entering the raid with 250% more power than is actually needed to beat the boss, it is conceptually easy enough as is.

That said, one should not expect to be able to run around wherever they feel like while spamming dodges and auto-attack, but at the same time, there is plenty of room for mistakes or under performance.

Uhm, no?
There is a 60% drop from a supposedly very high level of skill, not a common level of skill.

I am making the assumption that the four people in question are able bodied men or women who have trained over and over to reach that level of success, not just 4 run of the mill raiders of various ages and abilities who raid when they have the time and will to do.

Accessibility, level of commitment and skill actually do not always go hand in hand.

All i can read here is that only true raiders deserve a legendary armor. So i think Anet should axe raid development like they did with the new legendary weapons.
No raids, no legendary armor … problem solved.

Thao.3947:

All i can read here is that only true raiders deserve a legendary armor. So i think Anet should axe raid development like they did with the new legendary weapons.
No raids, no legendary armor … problem solved.

so read again. most of raiders agree with legendary armor in other game mode (pvp, wvw, or even an open world version). Just not give the raid armor for free for people just wanting to afk 1111 some times…

I got a decent proposal.

- Let’s have Arenanet do this ‘lore’ based instance of the raid, tuned down with rewards similar to what we get from doing LS achievements. Put the LS/Expansion teams on it, Raid team and their dedicated resources are not involved.

- Put an “accessible” set of different Legendary Armor outside raids.

Boom, done.

Sykper.6583:

I got a decent proposal.

- Let’s have Arenanet do this ‘lore’ based instance of the raid, tuned down with rewards similar to what we get from doing LS achievements. Put the LS/Expansion teams on it, Raid team and their dedicated resources are not involved.

- Put an “accessible” set of different Legendary Armor outside raids.

Boom, done.

Boom, everybody learns that legendary armor costs ~3500gold. Armor still stays unaccesible to the majority of the community. Nothing changes.

One thing changes though:
People complaining about the 150LI requirement and raid accesibility.
People complaining about 300 Provisioner Tokens and 4800 T6 materials requirement. Because everybody thinks that legendary armor is free if you play raids.

Assic.2746:

Sykper.6583:

I got a decent proposal.

- Let’s have Arenanet do this ‘lore’ based instance of the raid, tuned down with rewards similar to what we get from doing LS achievements. Put the LS/Expansion teams on it, Raid team and their dedicated resources are not involved.

- Put an “accessible” set of different Legendary Armor outside raids.

Boom, done.

Boom, everybody learns that legendary armor costs ~3500gold. Armor still stays unaccesible to the majority of the community. Nothing changes.

One thing changes though:
People complaining about the 150LI requirement and raid accesibility.
People complaining about 300 Provisioner Tokens and 4800 T6 materials requirement. Because everybody thinks that legendary armor is free if you play raids.

Those are problems with gold however, and I could never imagine the folks clamoring for Legendary Armor access wouldn’t consider that (Clearly)! The great news about my proposal is that everyone wins!

…Well except for the people who want more ‘outside of raid instance’ story and content, they get their content delayed because of those who really, really want to see the raid content lore.

Probably a waste of dev resources, but hey now everyone’s happy right? Yea totally…

Except there are plenty of mode games having exclusive rewards. That is just normal. Look at fractal skins for examples, or wvw rewards, etc etc.

There are, but as we’ve already discussed, there don’t have to be, and many rewards in the game that were once unique to a single content are now open to multiple methods of earning them. Furthermore, the method of earning Envoy armor is currently far and away the most difficult thing to earn in the game, far more difficult than any of the “exclusive” rewards you mention, so if you’re talking about them being balanced against those other rewards, the single method of earning the armor would need to be made far easier than it currently is for it to remain the only method.

I would now expect you to raise numerous strawmen that have already been shot down in this thread, but I hope beyond hope that you’re better than that.

yes it’s a game, so people should play it. With your logical, no need to play, i will afk at LA and be waiting for the rewards (because maybe i enjoy afk at LA).

Called it.

For example, it’d be far more effort to spend 20 hours walking around DR in a circle non stop than it would be to clear wing 1 in raids but it’d be a stretch to say that walking around DR in a circle should give you 3 legendary insights.

Sure, and I’m not suggesting that walking around DR should be a method of earning it, but you guys speak of “effort,” and then misuse the term. I feel that an easy mode, balanced against other dungeon content to not be completely “press 1,” while still not be nearly as prone to wipes as the current raids, would provide enough of an active gaming experience to deserve some progress toward the existing raid exclusive rewards, while obviously for time/effort balance it should not provide the same amount of progress as completing the hard mode.

Dead lift a 150lb. weight over your head once, or dead lift a 50lb. weight over your head three times, you’re still lifting a total of 150lb., and deserve to be compensated for that equally.

To us raiders, such effort does not really deserve any sort of reward when 90% of the game already rewards you for doing the 1111111111 rotation in open world.

You keep making arguments like that as if it supports your position, but I always see it as just the opposite. If 90% of the game is at a certain level of difficulty, then shouldn’t that indicate that the majority of the game’s population likes that level of difficulty? I mean, if the majority of the game were raid-hard, and people played it anyway, then it would be fair to say that this was a “raid-hard” game, for “raid-hard” players, and that there would be no practical purpose for any easy content, because people who enjoyed that would not enjoy the other 90% of the game and it would be a waste of time.

But if 90% of the game is “so easy” by your standards, and yet hundreds of thousands of players enjoy it that way, then shouldn’t the entire game be designed to make that sort of player happy? Isn’t making content that is significantly harder than that 90% a huge waste of time? I think it’s fine that they make a mode of the content that is significantly harder, but I don’t think it’s fair that this would be then ONLY version of the content available. If the overwhelming majority of the game’s players enjoy a certain type of content, then ALL the content should be built around making those players happy first and foremost. They should never feel left out or left behind by an entire set of content, or blocked out of getting rewards.

why should there be an easy mode if the real cracks beat valeguardian with only 4 people?

Because other non-expert groups of ten players are still failing to beat him. Posting the achievements of expert groups who have the encounter down are absolutely meaningless to this discussion. Until you can show that random pugs of completely inexperienced and poorly balanced players are regularly able to beat VG within their first hour of trying, you are not providing an example which would counter the need for an easier version.

The concept is that the boss is beatable with a 60% drop in allowable productivity. By entering the raid with 250% more power than is actually needed to beat the boss, it is conceptually easy enough as is.

And yet. . . it is not, because people are still failing it.

All i can read here is that only true raiders deserve a legendary armor. So i think Anet should axe raid development like they did with the new legendary weapons.
No raids, no legendary armor … problem solved.

That would be a fair solution to the imbalance, but not one that I think any of us would actually prefer. Better than keeping things as they are though.

Sykper.6583

I am not saying that your idea is bad I even think otherwise.

Put an “accessible” set of different Legendary Armor outside raids.

Sure, I think that every game mode deserves a different legendary armor. And if you want the certain armor you have to play that game mode. People are defending raids so much (including me) because everyone wants envoy armor without playing raids which is unfair towards raiders because then all the effort to get the LI would mean nothing.

Dead lift a 150lb. weight over your head once, or dead lift a 50lb. weight over your head three times, you’re still lifting a total of 150lb., and deserve to be compensated for that equally.

No. Not even close the same effort.

You keep making arguments like that as if it supports your position, but I always see it as just the opposite. If 90% of the game is at a certain level of difficulty, then shouldn’t that indicate that the majority of the game’s population likes that level of difficulty? I mean, if the majority of the game were raid-hard, and people played it anyway, then it would be fair to say that this was a “raid-hard” game, for “raid-hard” players, and that there would be no practical purpose for any easy content, because people who enjoyed that would not enjoy the other 90% of the game and it would be a waste of time.

But if 90% of the game is “so easy” by your standards, and yet hundreds of thousands of players enjoy it that way, then shouldn’t the entire game be designed to make that sort of player happy? Isn’t making content that is significantly harder than that 90% a huge waste of time? I think it’s fine that they make a mode of the content that is significantly harder, but I don’t think it’s fair that this would be then ONLY version of the content available. If the overwhelming majority of the game’s players enjoy a certain type of content, then ALL the content should be built around making those players happy first and foremost. They should never feel left out or left behind by an entire set of content, or blocked out of getting rewards.

so be logical, and ask for the removal of wvw and pvp. Just keep open world pve (obviously more players there).
You’re just so wrong. All because you want raid loot you’re trying to make arguments for your point of view.

That would be a fair solution to the imbalance, but not one that I think any of us would actually prefer. Better than keeping things as they are though.

What imbalance? i’m sincerely curious… It’s not because you’re not happy by the situation that there is an imbalance, you’re not the center of gw2…

ure, I think that every game mode deserves a different legendary armor. And if you want the certain armor you have to play that game mode.

But that doesn’t work, because it’s not about the pink, it’s about the appearance.

How about this, for all of you so magnanimous about other game modes having access to “some sort of” Legendary armor:

What if Legendary armor remains 100% exclusive to raiding, it’s the only way to be able to chat-link stat-swapping armor, but you can get dull, boring, nobody would ever want them Exotic versions of the Experimental and Envoy armor through easy mode? Would that be ok with you guys? That’d be fine by me.

People are defending raids so much (including me) because everyone wants envoy armor without playing raids which is unfair towards raiders because then all the effort to get the LI would mean nothing.

No, it wouldn’t, and it’s sad that you would feel that way. The effort to earn the Legendary armor your way would have already been fully compensated. At minimum, you would have the armor for months before any easy mode players could get it, because you’d have a huge head start, and be taking the shortest route. That’s reason enough.

But more importantly, you’d be playing a mode that you claim to enjoy, and that is all the reward you should EVER need for it. If all you care about is having armor that few other people have, then I sorry, that’s an immensely selfish motivation, and you should never be rewarded for that.

Dead lift a 150lb. weight over your head once, or dead lift a 50lb. weight over your head three times, you’re still lifting a total of 150lb., and deserve to be compensated for that equally.

No. Not even close the same effort.

Sorry, but reality disagrees with you.

so be logical, and ask for the removal of wvw and pvp. Just keep open world pve (obviously more players there).

Been there, done that. Seriously though, I don’t mind PvP and WvW being there, so long as ANet does not put things behind them that would give anyone reason to go there who do not WANT to be there. And that’s my problem with hard mode raids. I’m 100% consistent on that.

What imbalance? i’m sincerely curious… It’s not because you’re not happy by the situation that there is an imbalance, you’re not the center of gw2…

The imbalance is that there’s this element of content that is much harder and more logistically inconvenient than other content, but gives out rewards that cannot be earned elsewhere, creating a significant imbalance between players willing and able to do raids, and those who are not. So far, you’ve proposed no solution to that imbalance beyond just insisting that the latter group should get nothing.

Ohoni.6057:

People are defending raids so much (including me) because everyone wants envoy armor without playing raids which is unfair towards raiders because then all the effort to get the LI would mean nothing.

No, it wouldn’t, and it’s sad that you would feel that way. The effort to earn the Legendary armor your way would have already been fully compensated. At minimum, you would have the armor for months before any easy mode players could get it, because you’d have a huge head start, and be taking the shortest route. That’s reason enough.

But more importantly, you’d be playing a mode that you claim to enjoy, and that is all the reward you should EVER need for it. If all you care about is having armor that few other people have, then I sorry, that’s an immensely selfish motivation, and you should never be rewarded for that.

If I didn’t enjoy raids I would not play them. But I am not afraid to say that I am playing raids to get Legendary Armor. I set this goal for myself when I first time watched members of Raid Team on Guild Chat or maybe it was a footage from some Twitch event stating that raids are going to be the ultimate difficulty PvE content and this content will reward players with Legendary Armor progression. I told myself that I want to be a part of the hardcore group of players which would manage to clear raid wings consistently. I would never expect that it will take me less than a few hours to clear all Forsaken Thicket bosses. But I didn’t sit on the forum and beg ANet for easy raids I spent hours in the raid zone instead. I invested gold into the gear and food and a lot of time into practice.

And here I am only 2 weeks away from 150+ LI. After that I am still going to raid and gain more and more experience. So my selfish desires motivated me to play raids and rewarded me with the possibility of crafting the Envoy Legendary Armor while your selfish desires motivated you to cry on forum and rewarded you with nothing.

Assic.2746:

Sykper.6583

I am not saying that your idea is bad I even think otherwise.

Put an “accessible” set of different Legendary Armor outside raids.

Sure, I think that every game mode deserves a different legendary armor. And if you want the certain armor you have to play that game mode. People are defending raids so much (including me) because everyone wants envoy armor without playing raids which is unfair towards raiders because then all the effort to get the LI would mean nothing.

FYI, I’m kind of been one of the early ones defending raids back then. I was more or less joking about my solution as what it would cause is more content droughts just for anyone not interested in the raids themselves due to taking resources from Living Story and so forth just to sate some false interest in raiding as a whole.

I digress, arguing about opinions at this time is pointless. The juncture here that has been the largest influence on this whole discussion is whether or not some opinions are or are not laid in facts, which are utterly impossible to prove. It has been literally months of the same thing being discussed, but in the end I believe just about every single point on this subject has been talked about. Everything from rewards, difficulties, design, you name it we have probably touched on it and then some.

I just hope that Arenanet understands all of these points made and is capable of rendering their own judgment on how to proceed. I definitely don’t think certain things about raids have been perfected yet, but I strongly disagree with certain ‘solutions’ that ultimately would tarnish the intent and concept of raids as a whole. I definitely think Arenanet knows this by now and can go forward.

…Side-note, I am willing to believe that the Raid team who talked about being able to enjoy the salty tears of players going into this raid content have had their fill from these constant threads. They have been nothing but a fountain.

Q: How do you convert difficulty overcome to time spent?
A: You can’t. There’s no way to equate the two criteria.

Q Skill in a game is a continuum, not two arbitrary points. What happens when the “easier” content is still too hard for some players?
A: You have a group complaining that the easier mode is too hard, and saying they deserve the experience/rewards, also.

Q: Would the number of extra reps be sufficiently large that a skilled player would be sufficiently better off not to follow the path of least resistance?
A: They’d have to be. If they weren’t, you know what would happen. Players with the skill/knowledge to complete the harder version would complete the easier version faster. Once the challenge has been experienced, players would seek the rewards following the path of least resistance.

Q: What about when players who think too much repetition is not fun complain that the easier mode is too grindy? Come on, you know this would happen. It’s happened in persistent world PvE anytime Anet puts in repetition-based rewards.
A: It depends on ANet. If they cave (which they have in some cases), then the theoretical (challenge overcome / time put in) equation breaks AND the deterrent to following the path of least resistance breaks. If they don’t cave (which they have also done in some cases), then some portion of the potential audience for an easier mode abandons the content and/or is unhappy.

So,

POTENTIAL UPSIDE

1. Some number of players who are currently unhappy would become happier with the game. This number is unknown. There is a risk that the challenge level chosen for the “easier version” would still be too high for some unknown percentage of them. Perceived “grind” associated with the easier mode risks making some or all of them unhappy.

POTENTIAL DOWNSIDES

1. Dev effort spent to make this happen could be disproportional to the size of the group served. The size of the group that is currently unhappy over this issue is unknown, as is the dev effort that would be involved.
2. Dev effort spent would not be spent on other projects, at a disadvantage to some other group(s).
3. Some of the target audience for raids becomes unhappy. This group could be larger than the group that would be made happier.
4. A precedent is set that would be invoked every time Anet attempts to use rewards as an incentive.

Here you go again speaking for others, reality it is this time. Can I get some quotes from reality and some facts? As somebody that lifts in reality I can tell you straight away that lifting 150 once is way more difficult than lifting 50 three times.

Oh, it’s more difficult, certainly, but it’s not more effort. Again I have to suspect that this word does not mean what you think it means.

Q: How do you convert difficulty overcome to time spent?
A: You can’t. There’s no way to equate the two criteria.

If you insist that difficulty should have infinite value relative to time, then it must also have zero value relative to time. If no amount of time spent could ever add up to overcoming a difficult challenge, then that difficult challenge cannot have any measurable value relative to time, and therefore, “beating Mathius” and “standing in LA for five minutes” could be said to have equal value.

Personally though, I do believe you can balance out the two, and a lower skill activity should have less value per unit of time than a higher skill one, but by no means an infinitely lower amount.

Q Skill in a game is a continuum, not two arbitrary points. What happens when the “easier” content is still too hard for some players?
A: You have a group complaining that the easier mode is too hard, and saying they deserve the experience/rewards, also.

Not exactly. Here is where we get into “baseline difficulty.” Think of it a bit like thrill rides at a park. These rides are designed to accommodate certain body types safely, based on the average body type the park expects to serve, basically a 5-7ft tall person of reasonable BMI. These rides in some cases cannot safely accommodate people that are well above or below these margins, they could fall out, or not fit within the restraints at all. This is considered acceptable because the vast majority of park patrons are expected to fit within this margin, and in most cases it’s impossible to design restraints that would fit everyone at once.

If a park were to design a ride that could only fit people who are 7ft+, however, and anyone shorter than that would slip out, this would seem like an unreasonable barrier to entry. Too few people would be able to meet that standard, and too many customers who might be interested in that experience would be unable to participate. Likewise if the restraints could only hold someone smaller than 3ft tall, it would bar an unreasonable amount of people for a park that is otherwise designed around an average body type.

This is the case we have here, Guild Wars 2 has a certain baseline of difficulty. Let’s call that baseline “5/10.” If a player cannot handle 5/10 content, then he really has nothing to do in this game at all. I mean he can basically hang out in town or something, but he can’t enjoy the vast majority of the content, and thus is an outlier, and the game cannot be expected to cater to him, because he cannot meet the standards of the vast majority of players who are happy with the game. This game is not for him at all, but that’s ok, and he can find another game that has a baseline difficulty in the 3 range or so. He should not expect for content to be created for him, because he falls too short of the baseline difficulty level that everyone else enjoys.

Likewise, however, if a player can only enjoy challenges of a 8/10 or above, then this game really isn’t well suited for him either. The vast majority of the game’s content is not tuned for that, and he can still do it, but would apparently not enjoy the experience, so he should not expect to enjoy the game. The best course of action would be for him to seek out games that already have a 8/10 average, were the bulk of the content is directed at his audience.

If GW2 chooses to tailor some experiences to the 8+ audience, then this is a disservice to all customers, because it means that the 5/10 customers who are content with the entire rest of the game are dissatisfied, because there is this content that they cannot enjoyable participate in, and the 8+ audience are likely not going to be pleased in the long term, because they will burn out on this small portion of the content faster than it can or should be provided to them, and they apparently do not enjoy the rest of the game.

That is why raids should not exist as a “8+ only” experience, because they are a deviation from the baseline challenge level of the game. They can exist, but should only do so if they are also presented in a 5/10 version, one compatible with the interests of the bulk of the players, so that they are not left out of the experience. The 8+ players can still have their version to play as they see fit, but this would allow the bulk of the players to also enjoy the content, neither feeling left out, nor feeling pressured by content that is well above their enjoyment threshold.

Q: Would the number of extra reps be sufficiently large that a skilled player would be sufficiently better off not to follow the path of least resistance?
A: They’d have to be. If they weren’t, you know what would happen. Players with the skill/knowledge to complete the harder version would complete the easier version faster. Once the challenge has been experienced, players would seek the rewards following the path of least resistance.

This would certainly apply to content that could be repeated infinitely, “clear the hard mode once, or clear the easy mode three times in a row,” but if we assume daily and/or weekly lock-outs, this becomes less of an issue, since you would be unable to complete the easy mode often enough per unit of time to equal the reward of the harder mode. Yes, if you wanted to be as lazy as possible you could just do the easy mode once per week and take several times as many weeks to achieve what you could from doing hard mode once per week, but the sort of person who would contemplate that would not be the sort of person inclined to ever do the hard mode in the first place.

People who complete the hard mode as often as possible would still always come out ahead of people who complete the easy mode as often as possible, by a wide margin.

Q: What about when players who think too much repetition is not fun complain that the easier mode is too grindy? Come on, you know this would happen. It’s happened in persistent world PvE anytime Anet puts in repetition-based rewards.

Then they would be directed towards the harder mode, which requires less repetition. “Grind” is only a valid complaint when there is no alternative to it.

POTENTIAL UPSIDE

Some number of players who are currently unhappy would become happier with the game. This number is unknown. There is a risk that the challenge level chosen for the “easier version” would still be too high for some unknown percentage of them. Perceived “grind” associated with the easier mode risks making some or all of them unhappy.

POTENTIAL DOWNSIDES

Dev effort spent to make this happen could be disproportional to the size of the group served. The size of the group that is currently unhappy over this issue is unknown, as is the dev effort that would be involved.
Dev effort spent would not be spent on other projects, at a disadvantage to some other group(s).
Some of the target audience for raids becomes unhappy. This group could be larger than the group that would be made happier.
A precedent is set that would be invoked every time Anet attempts to use rewards as an incentive.

I agree with all of these points as presented, although I suspect that we would disagree on the relative risks/quantities of the downsides. All of these things are possible, but my position is based on the idea that the risks would be minimal, and the numbers that would be displeased would be a tiny fraction of the number pleased.

The one’s you refuse to acknowledge everytime a dev stats raids are doing better than anticipated and are better that other MMORPG counterparts.

That’s not numbers. That’s a developer’s spin on the numbers, which may or may not accurately reflect the situation.

Here is where we get into “baseline difficulty.”

we are already at the baseline difficulty for raids.
new mode would be neat i guess, like…a hardmode.

just one question tough…u want an easier mode.
lets say vale guard green circles…how would u make that easier?
explosion deals way less dmg if players can’t make it? then you can ignore that mechanic completly.
dumb down the players needed from like 4 to 2? people would still not make it and die to it.
give it a longer cd? people will still not make it, and since its a longer cd, they won’t even stay on alert for this.
cut the mechanic completly out? why design a raidboss then even, you could just let some random creature with high hp stay there wich does nothing the whole fight.

imagine 10 players hitting on something wich does nothing the whole fight wich already happens in way larger scale in the openworld for most…not all…cases.

its boring. there is no fix for it. easy mode / story mode (absolutly 0% story in killing a guy wich doesn’t hit back and can’t wipe you) is in no way a good option for raids.

i would rather go that far and say: with the hot powercreep all bosses / creatures in normal tyria need a redesign. not gonna happen tough, since there are also new players wich have no access to the powercreep yet.

lets face it…in 5 man dungeon / fractal content, you still can die, if you are not on alert for certain stuff, even with bosses dying pretty fast. kitten can always happen.
but in raids with totally dumbed down mechanics with 10 people? so much rezz power, that a wipe can’t happen.

or do you want to go that far that you say, the story thing is for 5 players only?
but for that, it would not be a raid anymore, it would just be some instance with some mobs in it…

…and therefore not obliged to get raid loot!
just look at fractals…wher do you get the really expensive asc gear? on higher levels with a really low chance.

and in raids the chance to get asc stuff is pretty high. going out with loot for 300g+ is not something you should be able to aquire in easy mode….wich is, if you are lucky, pretty common.

i can say atleast that i got more asc stuff from raids then from the fractals since hot release.

They knew pretty well before that people like yourself, astral, ohoni etc… would cry tears. They aren’t however naive enough to go around nerfbatting/creating an easy mode with equal rewards.

You say that, and yet they’ve had a fairly consistent history of doing exactly that with previous content when the general game population was displeased by it. Again, if you’re right and it’s completely inconceivable that they would make any changes in our favor, then why so scared?

we are already at the baseline difficulty for raids.
new mode would be neat i guess, like…a hardmode.

You’re missing the point here, I suspect deliberately. No, raids are not currently at the baseline for content, even most raiders happily admit that it’s harder than other content in the game. The baseline is not relative, one mode doesn’t have it’s own baseline, the baseline is across the ENTIRE game, and right now the baseline is far easier than the raids currently are.

lets say vale guard green circles…how would u make that easier?
explosion deals way less dmg if players can’t make it? then you can ignore that mechanic completly.
dumb down the players needed from like 4 to 2? people would still not make it and die to it.
give it a longer cd? people will still not make it, and since its a longer cd, they won’t even stay on alert for this.
cut the mechanic completly out? why design a raidboss then even, you could just let some random creature with high hp stay there wich does nothing the whole fight.

I’ve explained this before, but I would reduce the damage. Could players then ignore it? Yes, IF they could heal past it. It would be less likely to one-shot wipe a party, but it would still add a chunk of damage that would down any already-wounded players, people would still need to keep track of it.

Raiders say “they could ignore the mechanic” as if that’s the end of the world, and if this were intended to be a “peak skill” hard mode raid, then it probably would be, because it would be failing to provide that high challenge level that sort of thing is meant to have, but this would not be intended as a hardcore challenge, it would be intended as a moderately challenging encounter, equivalent to other dungeon content, where a lot of the mechanics can be ignored, and that’s fine, so long as you don’t ignore too many of them in too short a time-span.

If you’re just standing there spamming 1, ignoring all the mechanics, and not dodging, then you WILL accumulate enough damage to die fairly easily, but if you’re paying attention, you can get caught in a few mechanics now and then and it won’t cause an automatic wipe.

I’m not aiming for something that every group would pass without wiping, the target difficulty though would be that every group could get through it with a few tries, so long as most people knew the tactics needed. Yes, it would be a lot easier than the current version, and YES, that is working as intended.

Also, the point, in my vision for it at least, is that the actual mechanics would remain the same, only the penalties for failing them would change, so that if the players react perfectly to the mechanics, and do exactly what a hard mode raid crew would do in the same situations, then they will complete the content exactly the same, and be good enough to take on the hard mode version out of the gate. The only difference would be that if they messed up, if they dropped the ball several times over the course of the fight, it wouldn’t be as likely to lead to a wipe and reset, they could continue the fight, beating the easy mode encounter where a hard mode team would have collapsed, but knowing that they would still have room to improve before they’d be ready to clear hard mode.

And again, if this easy mode does not appeal to you, if you read what I say and think “what’s the point of that then?!” that’s ok. It’s not for you. You already have the harder mode, and that mode is for you. This mode is for people that don’t see the allure of “training to the raid” and spending countless hours wiping against a boss until they eventually beat it. It is for a different audience, so you seeing the value in it is not important to the process.

just look at fractals…wher do you get the really expensive asc gear? on higher levels with a really low chance.

and in raids the chance to get asc stuff is pretty high. going out with loot for 300g+ is not something you should be able to aquire in easy mode….wich is, if you are lucky, pretty common.

i can say atleast that i got more asc stuff from raids then from the fractals since hot release.

Just in general, I do think that they need to expand the Ascended drops in other areas of the game, because currently, the people who need Ascended armor the least, the ones who already have several full sets of it, are so much more likely to receive Ascended drops than those who need it most, the ones who have few, if any Ascended pieces. It’s a broken distribution model, like Oscar gift bags. That’s not specific to esy mode raids though, I currently expect them to have much lower Ascended drop rates than the existing raids, I just think that separately they need to rethink Ascended drops in general.

[edit]
I just had an idea, and I’m just throwing this out there, but it might be an interesting compromise on the “green circles” question. Reduce the damage to almost nothing, but add a stacking defense/healing debuff of some kind. Make it so that the debuff has a timer of about 110% the duration between circle pulses, cannot be removed, refreshes its duration AND stacks in intensity. In practice, this would work out to that you could mostly ignore the first one, but then everything else is causing you to take more damage, and/or heals are less effective.

Catch the second one, and this debuff is wiped clean a little later, back to square one, but ignore the second one and suddenly you have a much stronger debuff on you, and everything hits you like a brick. Get a third on you and everything hits you even harder than in the hard mode, which for easy mode players should be very deadly. Basically, no single hit would cause a wipe, but you definitely couldn’t ignore the mechanic entirely.

Now, of course that would mean a bit more dev work, as it’s basically a new mechanic, so I still prefer just tuning the damage down, but it could make the power less “one-shot” while still being unignorable.

You say that, and yet they’ve had a fairly consistent history of doing exactly that with previous content when the general game population was displeased by it. Again, if you’re right and it’s completely inconceivable that they would make any changes in our favor, then why so scared?

What history of nerfing instanced content? again i’m curious. I’m seeing story mode dungeon and easy fractal having different rewards, both in quality and quantity, and that’s the closest to your easy mode raid.

And where is the general game population whom you’re talking about? You, astral and 1 and 2 others? You’re just the minority… in game, reddit or in forum, i didn’t see more people like you.
People are either raiding, non raiding (without caring about rewards), or non raiding but wanting raid lore (that i can understand, even if the lore is minimal). Not wanting raiding and still wanting raid reward, just you and a few other. So until you have proof to back up your claims, you’re not representativ of the general game population. (because since you want to change the situation, you are the one to show us your proof)

What history of nerfing instanced content? again i’m curious. I’m seeing story mode dungeon and easy fractal having different rewards, both in quality and quantity, and that’s the closest to your easy mode raid.

Well let’s see, they’ve nerfed dungeon paths and Fractals at various points, they’ve nerfed world bosses like Tequatl, they nerfed normal mode of SAB this time around, they’ve nerfed plenty of events and world bosses that were at one point considered “serious content,” like the Chak Garant.

Basically pretty much all content in the game has followed a pattern where they’ve made something a bit too hard, and the “hardcore” players really loved that, but the average player found it frustrating, so they nerfed it.

And where is the general game population whom you’re talking about? You, astral and 1 and 2 others? You’re just the minority… in game, reddit or in forum, i didn’t see more people like you.

And if you’re right about that, then I’m no threat to you, and there’s absolutely no reason for you to try to crash every thread that discusses this topic because nothing would come of it anyway. But that aside, it’s far from just the two of us, we just happen to talk a lot more than the other guys, and that’s the problem with forums, they are a breeding ground for confirmation bias and unscientific sampling. Because me and Astral talk about the issue a lot, you seem convinced that not only are we the only two talking about it (we are not), but also the only people who care (which is preposterous). And since ANet keeps moving any thread about easy mode raid from places like the General Discussion, to the Dungeon/raid forum, which is more heavily populated by people invested in the current raid, it gives a false impression of the number of players who care.

But of course it’s impossible for players outside the game to get any sort of scientific data on either side of this topic, I cannot prove that there are large numbers of players who want an alternative, and you obviously can’t prove that there are not. ANet are the only ones in any position to determine the actual numbers, and they have or will. I can do nothing to convince you my numbers are right, and you cannot do anything to convince me that yours are, so it’s a rather pointless topic to discuss.

The point of this thread is not to decide whether anything should be done, that is entirely out of our hands. The point is to decide that if something IS to be done to make these players happy, what’s the best way to do that?

Basically pretty much all content in the game has followed a pattern where they’ve made something a bit too hard, and the “hardcore” players really loved that, but the average player found it frustrating, so they nerfed it.

The difference is that raid ARE meant to be hard, so there is no point in nerfing them (won’t happen). And if they follow the dungeon and fractal way with an easy mode, hmm, these instances have got different rewards for their easy mode (so if they follow this path, why not)

And if you’re right about that, then I’m no threat to you, and there’s absolutely no reason for you to try to crash every thread that discusses this topic because nothing would come of it anyway.

I disagree with everything you’re saying, so i answer each time you’re talking. It’s a forum after all…

But that aside, it’s far from just the two of us, we just happen to talk a lot more than the other guys, and that’s the problem with forums, they are a breeding ground for confirmation bias and unscientific sampling. Because me and Astral talk about the issue a lot, you seem convinced that not only are we the only two talking about it (we are not), but also the only people who care (which is preposterous). And since ANet keeps moving any thread about easy mode raid from places like the General Discussion, to the Dungeon/raid forum, which is more heavily populated by people invested in the current raid, it gives a false impression of the number of players who care.

But of course it’s impossible for players outside the game to get any sort of scientific data on either side of this topic, I cannot prove that there are large numbers of players who want an alternative, and you obviously can’t prove that there are not. ANet are the only ones in any position to determine the actual numbers, and they have or will. I can do nothing to convince you my numbers are right, and you cannot do anything to convince me that yours are, so it’s a rather pointless topic to discuss.

I’m seeing no one in game talking about that. I know forum and reddit are not representativ, that’s why i ask people in map chat too… again, no one is as greedy as you 2.

The point is, you keep using the number of people as an argument. But it’s not, you have no numbers. So, stop using it.

The point of this thread is not to decide whether anything should be done, that is entirely out of our hands. The point is to decide that if something IS to be done to make these players happy, what’s the best way to do that?

yes, and we’re telling you your solution won’t make more people happier. It will make the few like you happier, that’s all. Lore instance can make more people happier, i’m not denying that. Putting raid rewards behind easy raid, not. It’s all my right to give my opinion.

Pretty sure they buffed Teq from auto attack world boss to one which required some skill. People simply improved and realized they needed hills defense teams/turret teams etc and now it’s easy again. They didn’t really nerf Teq.

Chak was buggy af with scaling and needed fixes, it was also open world and out of line with the other 3 HoT maps so it was justified.

SAB barely got nerfed, only world 2 got some slight shaves in normal mode which is fair. Hard mode tribulation still offers unique rewards and nothing was changed with regards to it. Normal mode doesn’t give SAB tribulation mode rewards which if you wish to use as an example for raids, is a poor one since you want the rewards in hard (current) mode by doing normal mode.

Fractals I can maybe sorta see how the old 50 is harder but it’s not a linear comparison since they’ve reworked fracs so heavily now. People that struggled in the old 50 still struggle in the new 100, just as people that did fine still do fine. Was there really a nerf? Or did people get better/more leeway with Elite Specs?

Dungeons didn’t really get nerfed, they changed the stat scaling around and trait rework/elite spec just made everything easier. Lupi is still lupi, SE p2 is still SE p2. They haven’t even bothered fixing the bugs for years let alone nerf dungeons. Only thing they nerfed was the gold.

Basically pretty much all of your examples are non examples.

I can counter with Triple Trouble being extremely casual unfriendly, frustrating yet seen no nerfs for ages. Also shatterer was far more casual yet they made it actually require some effort now.

When you’ve got some real examples feel free to come back. Until then as you say, your posts are full of confirmation bias. ANet simply does not have a track record of nerfing content as you so incorrectly put it:

Basically pretty much all content in the game has followed a pattern where they’ve made something a bit too hard, and the “hardcore” players really loved that, but the average player found it frustrating, so they nerfed it.

The difference is that raid ARE meant to be hard, so there is no point in nerfing them (won’t happen).

ALL that stuff was “meant to be hard.” Dungeons were meant to be hard. Teq 2.0 was meant to be hard. Hot open world was meant to be hard. The players disagreed, ANet fixed them. You can argue it won’t happen to raids, and maybe it won’t, but if history is anything to go by, they’ll do something, and if you’re lucky it will be an easy mode, rather than just a straight nerf to the one and only version.

They didn’t really nerf Teq.

Oh yeah they did. A week or two in after the 2.0 version, they made it significantly easier.

Chak was buggy af with scaling and needed fixes, it was also open world and out of line with the other 3 HoT maps so it was justified.

But it was also avoidable if you didn’t want to do it, and “hardcore” players at the time really loved that getting it right required serious coordination like Triple Trouble or raiding. The players disagreed, so they nerfed it.

SAB barely got nerfed, only world 2 got some slight shaves in normal mode which is fair. Hard mode tribulation still offers unique rewards and nothing was changed with regards to it. Normal mode doesn’t give SAB tribulation mode rewards which if you wish to use as an example for raids, is a poor one since you want the rewards in hard (current) mode by doing normal mode.

They added several shortcuts to the only actually difficult portions of the game, and some of the jump mechanics ended up a bit easier in the new version. Also, the “tribulation” skins are just recolors of the existing skins, in the worse possible colors. You want green and yellow SAB weapons? Be my guest. Now if the blue SAB skins were only available in Trib mode, a fit would have been thrown. Hard. Now if we apply that to raids, they could shift it so that the new Easy mode could get the existing Experimental armor, and the hard mode could get an exclusive version that’s automatically green or something, I’d be fine with that.

Fractals I can maybe sorta see how the old 50 is harder but it’s not a linear comparison since they’ve reworked fracs so heavily now. People that struggled in the old 50 still struggle in the new 100, just as people that did fine still do fine. Was there really a nerf? Or did people get better/more leeway with Elite Specs?

This wasn’t the first change they’ve made to Fractals, they have made many things easier over the years.

Dungeons didn’t really get nerfed, they changed the stat scaling around and trait rework/elite spec just made everything easier. Lupi is still lupi, SE p2 is still SE p2. They haven’t even bothered fixing the bugs for years let alone nerf dungeons. Only thing they nerfed was the gold.

Again, when they made it so you couldn’t rez-rush, they balanced that by making the actual encounters easier. Little things here and there, but overall the dungeons are not as hard today as they once were.

I can counter with Triple Trouble being extremely casual unfriendly, frustrating yet seen no nerfs for ages. Also shatterer was far more casual yet they made it actually require some effort now.

Here’s the thing, I champion when they take bosses where people just stand around and nothing actually happens, and add new mechanics to them. I think that’s great. I have that crystally backpack thing. But I don’t like when they make the bosses less likely to succeed. Shatterer can be pretty frustrating now if you don’t have a well coordinated map going at him, and I do hope they make some nerfs, not back to how he used to be, but just, a little more forgiving on the breakbar stuff for maps that can’t get their kitten together. He’s new though, so they have some time.

When you’ve got some real examples feel free to come back. Until then as you say, your posts are full of confirmation bias.

. . .

I do not think that word means what you think it means.