Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
(edited by Astralporing.1957)
Different Raid Difficulty Would Satisfy Most
Seekers and Blue Circles still hit fairly hard from the Unbound Guardian, the green circle gives an incentive to ranged standing inside of it for a damage buff rather than preventing a wipe mechanic.
So far i have seen people at LUG fleeing from “those green AoE’s”, and trying to gather seekers together in order to better stack and cleave them about as often (if not more often) than stacking in green circles and avoiding real AoEs. And i haven’t noticed any meaningful real difference between those two in how much the guardian went down. Yeah, the second group did it 1-2 minutes faster, maybe.
Go to Bloodstone Fen and fight the Unbound Guardian. Lern that fight and then you got your first easy mode boss.
100% this. It is an intelligent reuse of assets and it is great way to learn a bit about VG mechanics without having to form a group to raid.
What mechanics? Any “mechanics” of legendary unbound guardian could as well be just visuals for how much they impact the fight (hint: none at all).
It’s as if devs decided to make a jab at people asking for easy mode raids, by using a strawman example of one (and hinting using the name of the achieve that’s the best people can count on seeing). Any ties to vale guardian are nothing more than a bad (and definitely not funny) joke .So just like the mechanics people want for easy raid ( non wiping ones ), see how this is bad? And if there are a wiping mechanic they will say thats not easy.
No. As i said it was a strawman example of “easy mode”. The one raiders claim people ask for, but not the one people asking actually want.
What i want is for the mechanics to be easier, not faceroll easy. It’s not a binary thing, there’s a ton of ground in between. Even if some people intentionally try to ignore it.
Also yes, i do care about the loot. I never claimed otherwise.
Yes there is ton of ground, that will maybe satisfy you or not , and probably not a lot of other people, because they will still fail at it ( as it will be not face roll ) so complain will still exists and now the raid group is divided in easy mode / normal mode. So in the end its way more harm/trouble then a solution for a problem that only exist if you want.
Many encounters if you remove 1 mechanic it become faceroll easy as you say. Remove Green Circle from VG = faceroll easy. Gorseval remove the enrage = slow grind his health updrafting all the time = faceroll easy. Remove warg from scort = faceroll easy. Remove cannons from sabetha = faceroll easy. Etc.
And if they dont remove this mechanic people will still fail and complain. Because they are already too easy, so its a player problem if you cant complete it in its actual state.The idea that they cannot tone the fights down in ways that don’t make them “faceroll” is a little shortsighted, in my opinion. Of course there is room.
For me, most of the people I talk to are concerned more with the limiting nature of the fights in terms of build/gear/playstyle. Removing or toning down those elements that force (to a degree) players into the meta in order to have realistic chances would be a good thing - in a lower tier level of the raid (there should also be a harder experience that rewards the work people put in).
For many players, copy/pasting a build from metabattle takes the one thing they care about most from the experience – the perceived uniqueness of their character. While they shouldn’t expect to perform at the same level as those that min/max, I don’t think it is unfair for them to expect a raid experience that doesn’t overtly punish thme for getting creative with their characters.
The bolded part, what people fail to see that the VG on BF is exactly this, but people think its just a strawman or way toned down, and its not, the actual VG is actually that weak/easy, so if you tone down the wipe mechanic you will get BF VG that you dont want.
That comparison doesn’t really work. The Unbound Guardian is weak/easy because there are 60-100 people beating on it. While it shares a model and some mechanics, it was altered to be an open world encounter, not a replacement or easy mode version in a raid.
(edited by Blaeys.3102)
I mentioned the unbound guardian because it has everything you need to learn VG, the first boss of the raids.
This is from my own experience of the UG and comparison to VG (for context I have over 170 LI).
-Blue circles: UG, I died a few times just standing in them thinking I will get teleported like at VG,
- Seekers: Still deal enough damage to kill you,
- Green circle: Incentive to go to for damage increase,
- CC bar: break for less orbs flying around that still do a fair bit of damage
The only thing missing is the floor changes but the rest of the fight is the same (minus the splits) and promotes exactly what you need to do. Avoid blue circles, stand in green circle, cc, avoid seekers. It gets dumbed down a bit with the 50 other players around you but even so in raid gear (zerk etc) you can still get downed if you take mechanics for granted because of that.
If you can learn UG to do VG then every other boss is a piece of cake as I think VG is still a pain the the kitten to do.
RP enthusiast
Seekers and Blue Circles still hit fairly hard from the Unbound Guardian, the green circle gives an incentive to ranged standing inside of it for a damage buff rather than preventing a wipe mechanic.
So far i have seen people at LUG fleeing from “those green AoE’s”, and trying to gather seekers together in order to better stack and cleave them about as often (if not more often) than stacking in green circles and avoiding real AoEs. And i haven’t noticed any meaningful real difference between those two in how much the guardian went down. Yeah, the second group did it 1-2 minutes faster, maybe.
Go to Bloodstone Fen and fight the Unbound Guardian. Lern that fight and then you got your first easy mode boss.
100% this. It is an intelligent reuse of assets and it is great way to learn a bit about VG mechanics without having to form a group to raid.
What mechanics? Any “mechanics” of legendary unbound guardian could as well be just visuals for how much they impact the fight (hint: none at all).
It’s as if devs decided to make a jab at people asking for easy mode raids, by using a strawman example of one (and hinting using the name of the achieve that’s the best people can count on seeing). Any ties to vale guardian are nothing more than a bad (and definitely not funny) joke .So just like the mechanics people want for easy raid ( non wiping ones ), see how this is bad? And if there are a wiping mechanic they will say thats not easy.
No. As i said it was a strawman example of “easy mode”. The one raiders claim people ask for, but not the one people asking actually want.
What i want is for the mechanics to be easier, not faceroll easy. It’s not a binary thing, there’s a ton of ground in between. Even if some people intentionally try to ignore it.
Also yes, i do care about the loot. I never claimed otherwise.
Yes there is ton of ground, that will maybe satisfy you or not , and probably not a lot of other people, because they will still fail at it ( as it will be not face roll ) so complain will still exists and now the raid group is divided in easy mode / normal mode. So in the end its way more harm/trouble then a solution for a problem that only exist if you want.
Many encounters if you remove 1 mechanic it become faceroll easy as you say. Remove Green Circle from VG = faceroll easy. Gorseval remove the enrage = slow grind his health updrafting all the time = faceroll easy. Remove warg from scort = faceroll easy. Remove cannons from sabetha = faceroll easy. Etc.
And if they dont remove this mechanic people will still fail and complain. Because they are already too easy, so its a player problem if you cant complete it in its actual state.The idea that they cannot tone the fights down in ways that don’t make them “faceroll” is a little shortsighted, in my opinion. Of course there is room.
For me, most of the people I talk to are concerned more with the limiting nature of the fights in terms of build/gear/playstyle. Removing or toning down those elements that force (to a degree) players into the meta in order to have realistic chances would be a good thing - in a lower tier level of the raid (there should also be a harder experience that rewards the work people put in).
For many players, copy/pasting a build from metabattle takes the one thing they care about most from the experience – the perceived uniqueness of their character. While they shouldn’t expect to perform at the same level as those that min/max, I don’t think it is unfair for them to expect a raid experience that doesn’t overtly punish thme for getting creative with their characters.
The bolded part, what people fail to see that the VG on BF is exactly this, but people think its just a strawman or way toned down, and its not, the actual VG is actually that weak/easy, so if you tone down the wipe mechanic you will get BF VG that you dont want.
That comparison doesn’t really work. The Unbound Guardian is weak/easy because there are 60-100 people beating on it. While it shares a model and some mechanics, it was altered to be an open world encounter, not a replacement or easy mode version in a raid.
Go stand in seekers or blue circles or even the orbs during the cc phase. Unless you are a tank you will get downed. It’s easy due to the large amount of people there but each mechanic can still kill you if you think that you are safe in numbers.
RP enthusiast
Go stand in seekers or blue circles or even the orbs during the cc phase. Unless you are a tank you will get downed. It’s easy due to the large amount of people there but each mechanic can still kill you if you think that you are safe in numbers.
Exactly, people think its way tonned down, but in fact VG is that easy, but people just dont want to admit it.
I understand the things you are saying, but the Unbound Guardian still isn’t a raid boss and has nothing to do with the conversation about tiered difficulties in raids.
I understand the things you are saying, but the Unbound Guardian still isn’t a raid boss and has nothing to do with the conversation about tiered difficulties in raids.
It has, because people want easy mode to experience the bosses. And UG give you that, so why waste resource just to put UG in an instanced place?
I understand the things you are saying, but the Unbound Guardian still isn’t a raid boss and has nothing to do with the conversation about tiered difficulties in raids.
It has, because people want easy mode to experience the bosses. And UG give you that, so why waste resource just to put UG in an instanced place?
People want tiered difficulties so they can experience the raid itself and the fun of a semiorganized group – just with a little more freedom regarding builds/playstyles/skill levels.
That experience includes the story, the setting and the mechanics involved in mid sized group play (as opposed to open world – which is an entirely different game mode).
I don’t think anyone thinks that mirroring the bosses in the open world – with different, albeit similar mechanics, is the solution people are looking for.
I understand the things you are saying, but the Unbound Guardian still isn’t a raid boss and has nothing to do with the conversation about tiered difficulties in raids.
It has, because people want easy mode to experience the bosses. And UG give you that, so why waste resource just to put UG in an instanced place?
People want tiered difficulties so they can experience the raid itself and the fun of a semiorganized group – just with a little more freedom regarding builds/playstyles/skill levels.
That experience includes the story, the setting and the mechanics involved in mid sized group play (as opposed to open world – which is an entirely different game mode).
I don’t think anyone thinks that mirroring the bosses in the open world – with different, albeit similar mechanics, is the solution people are looking for.
But from a design point of view, and given the high number of possible combination, making raid boss “easy” comes necessarily down to what UG is. In that I mean you only scale the difficulty (read boss HP) on the number of people and let them do what they want.
This somehow breaks the philosophy of the raid where this is really because you fought hard that you can go further and discover the story. If the raid bosses were made easy the raid itself would worth less than a dungeon tbh because there is less story in it than any Arah path.
There is already some freedom in build/playstyle in raid. Sure there is “the team” that everybody copies from Quantify videos though they never noticed that those guys are beast at the game (well others are too). I’ve seen people finishing the raid pulling far less DPS out of their Ele and doing quite the same DPS with their condi thief than staff Ele… yet they complete the encounters.
Just as an example, if you assume VG fights needs 7 DPS (10 – tank, healer and chrono) and occurs in 6 minutes (8 from timers – one minute for each split phase), the DPS requirements is less than 9 k DPS. VG as 1900 armor, so on the golem, the DPS measurement should be 6,5 k for power builds, and 9k for condi ones…. so in term of strictness, we are far from what some seem to expect.
What actually amost always kills you on all raid encounters is not the lack of DPS (well for Gorseval it can be) but mistakes in moving to the right place at the right time, use a cc, an object, the additional skill when you need to. Tiering this in different difficulty would actually mean having mechanisms you can avoid. And as I said, avoiding the boss mechanisms would make the raid less interesting than any dungeon.
hmmmm.
Vale Guardian:
Normal mode: (aka. NM)
Stays the same.
Easy Mode
- 15% base damage reduction from NM
- 20% skill recharge time increase from NM
- Enrage: VG get +15% base dmg. , and -25% skill recharge time
Hard Mode
- 15% base damage increase from NM
- 20% health increase from NM
- Phases now activate every time VG looses 1/5 of it’s full HP
- Enrage: Same as NM
Wait.. What this? A 3 tier Vale Guardian? No but this cant be. It’s not possible.
I mean despite not changing any mechanics at all, it clearly breaks the game. It’s too dumb down now, and any idiot can do it. Where’s the challenge? It was clearly taken away from the people who do easy mode and everyone else simultaneously.
Oh and the time! This is gonna gonna take so much time to implement. I mean the dev has to go and copy and paste THE WHOLE VG FIGHT CODE! And then! Then they have change whole HALF A DOZEN variables for each tier. I mean.. god they’ll need a whole new group of people for that.
You know what your guys? You’re right tiers are just not realistic. GG! Everybody go home! Raids are just for people with specific gear and builds!
hmmmm.
Vale Guardian:
Normal mode: (aka. NM)
Stays the same.Easy Mode
- 15% base damage reduction from NM
- 20% skill recharge time increase from NM
- Enrage: VG get +15% base dmg. , and -25% skill recharge timeHard Mode
- 15% base damage increase from NM
- 20% health increase from NM
- Phases now activate every time VG looses 1/5 of it’s full HP
- Enrage: Same as NMWait.. What this? A 3 tier Vale Guardian? No but this cant be. It’s not possible.
I mean despite not changing any mechanics at all, it clearly breaks the game. It’s too dumb down now, and any idiot can do it. Where’s the challenge? It was clearly taken away from the people who do easy mode and everyone else simultaneously.
Oh and the time! This is gonna gonna take so much time to implement. I mean the dev has to go and copy and paste THE WHOLE VG FIGHT CODE! And then! Then they have change whole HALF A DOZEN variables for each tier. I mean.. god they’ll need a whole new group of people for that.
You know what your guys? You’re right tiers are just not realistic. GG! Everybody go home! Raids are just for people with specific gear and builds!
Yes they are not realistic, i’m 100% sure that this easy mode you give of example the same people that cant kill VG now, wont kill that VG either so its a waste of time.
hmmmm.
Vale Guardian:
Normal mode: (aka. NM)
Stays the same.Easy Mode
- 15% base damage reduction from NM
- 20% skill recharge time increase from NM
- Enrage: VG get +15% base dmg. , and -25% skill recharge timeHard Mode
- 15% base damage increase from NM
- 20% health increase from NM
- Phases now activate every time VG looses 1/5 of it’s full HP
- Enrage: Same as NMWait.. What this? A 3 tier Vale Guardian? No but this cant be. It’s not possible.
I mean despite not changing any mechanics at all, it clearly breaks the game. It’s too dumb down now, and any idiot can do it. Where’s the challenge? It was clearly taken away from the people who do easy mode and everyone else simultaneously.
Oh and the time! This is gonna gonna take so much time to implement. I mean the dev has to go and copy and paste THE WHOLE VG FIGHT CODE! And then! Then they have change whole HALF A DOZEN variables for each tier. I mean.. god they’ll need a whole new group of people for that.
You know what your guys? You’re right tiers are just not realistic. GG! Everybody go home! Raids are just for people with specific gear and builds!
Seriously, do you genuinely think that if it was so easy, the developers of GW2 are not doing it just because they enjoy to see people argue on the forum about who is the elitist, who is the spoiled kid, who is the lazy……? Have you ever considered that developing an MMO is actually harder than doing excel macros?
And yes -15% on green means you can forget about them. If the seekers strikes for less, you don’t need to CC them. Then self-heal (and a bit of regen around you) is enough… so you get maybe a T2 Fractal boss. There is far less challenge, which is the core design of raids….
(edited by Ranael.6423)
hmmmm.
Vale Guardian:
Normal mode: (aka. NM)
Stays the same.Easy Mode
- 15% base damage reduction from NM
- 20% skill recharge time increase from NM
- Enrage: VG get +15% base dmg. , and -25% skill recharge timeHard Mode
- 15% base damage increase from NM
- 20% health increase from NM
- Phases now activate every time VG looses 1/5 of it’s full HP
- Enrage: Same as NMWait.. What this? A 3 tier Vale Guardian? No but this cant be. It’s not possible.
I mean despite not changing any mechanics at all, it clearly breaks the game. It’s too dumb down now, and any idiot can do it. Where’s the challenge? It was clearly taken away from the people who do easy mode and everyone else simultaneously.
Oh and the time! This is gonna gonna take so much time to implement. I mean the dev has to go and copy and paste THE WHOLE VG FIGHT CODE! And then! Then they have change whole HALF A DOZEN variables for each tier. I mean.. god they’ll need a whole new group of people for that.
You know what your guys? You’re right tiers are just not realistic. GG! Everybody go home! Raids are just for people with specific gear and builds!Yes they are not realistic, i’m 100% sure that this easy mode you give of example the same people that cant kill VG now, wont kill that VG either so its a waste of time.
I think a lot of people would disagree with this prediction.
Personally, I’m not sure how the tiered difficulties would manifest, but I believe it would be possible (probably with minimal resources, but I cant say that for sure) – and to say that people wouldn’t or couldn’t play it if it were done is definitely a faulty assumption.
The only legitimate argument I see against the idea is developmental resources – and that is something that only Anet can truly speak to. I do believe, however, that additional resources – provided they aren’t exorbitant – would be justified to make this a reality.
(edited by Blaeys.3102)
15% reduction isn’t really going to be enough for those groups who can’t kill VG now.
They can’t kill usually because (a mix thereof):
- They miss greens
- Tank pulls too slowly to edges
- CC too slow
- People get ported and die on damaging AoE
- Bad Tank
- Healer not healing enough
etc
Pretty much nobody hits the enrage timer and then dies because of that. If you get that far, you can kill VG because you understand all the mechanics and after a few more wipes can probably execute them properly.
It’s an extremely reasonable assumption that 15% damage reduction will not change much and would still be too hard for most people that can’t kill VG now.
FOR THE GREEEEEEEEEEEEN
15% reduction isn’t really going to be enough for those groups who can’t kill VG now.
They can’t kill usually because (a mix thereof):
- They miss greens
- Tank pulls too slowly to edges
- CC too slow
- People get ported and die on damaging AoE
- Bad Tank
- Healer not healing enough
etcPretty much nobody hits the enrage timer and then dies because of that. If you get that far, you can kill VG because you understand all the mechanics and after a few more wipes can probably execute them properly.
It’s an extremely reasonable assumption that 15% damage reduction will not change much and would still be too hard for most people that can’t kill VG now.
It would shorten the fight time in those phases where you have to deal with those mechanics, reducing the likelihood for error.
But, yea, it may not be the right path to take. It may require reducing the overall damage the green circles (or similar mechanic in other fights) do or lowering the number of people needed in them to 2 or something – or doubling the time people have to get to the green circle before it explodes. There are a lot of ways to go with it.
But would it be possible? Of course it would. How much effort and balancing it would take – and where is the cutoff where it would no longer be realistically worth doing – those are questions only Anet can answer.
But, again, I think it worth dealing with. Making raids more appealing to larger groups of people is good for the game (reduces the “content drought” issue) and for raiding in general (more people get a taste and start taking steps to becoming harder core raiders adds to the pool of potential pugs).
15% reduction isn’t really going to be enough for those groups who can’t kill VG now.
They can’t kill usually because (a mix thereof):
- They miss greens
- Tank pulls too slowly to edges
- CC too slow
- People get ported and die on damaging AoE
- Bad Tank
- Healer not healing enough
etcPretty much nobody hits the enrage timer and then dies because of that. If you get that far, you can kill VG because you understand all the mechanics and after a few more wipes can probably execute them properly.
It’s an extremely reasonable assumption that 15% damage reduction will not change much and would still be too hard for most people that can’t kill VG now.
It would shorten the fight time in those phases where you have to deal with those mechanics, reducing the likelihood for error.
But, yea, it may not be the right path to take. It may require reducing the overall damage the green circles (or similar mechanic in other fights) do or lowering the number of people needed in them to 2 or something – or doubling the time people have to get to the green circle before it explodes. There are a lot of ways to go with it.
But would it be possible? Of course it would. How much effort and balancing it would take – and where is the cutoff where it would no longer be realistically worth doing – those are questions only Anet can answer.
But, again, I think it worth dealing with. Making raids more appealing to larger groups of people is good for the game (reduces the “content drought” issue) and for raiding in general (more people get a taste and start taking steps to becoming harder core raiders adds to the pool of potential pugs).
Its not possible without really going down to UG level. You have to basically remove the floor doing damage, because its actually hurts more if it take more time to explode, because you need to be on it,and if you get green on damaging floor you are done. If green does to less damage people will ignore it, just take 1 druid and heal the green circle, see how lowering you either get mechanics that people will fail or get mechanics that people ignore. There is no win scenario. And just look there people finding mechanic on Justicar from LS3 difficult. So current raids are on the perfect spot.
15% reduction isn’t really going to be enough for those groups who can’t kill VG now.
They can’t kill usually because (a mix thereof):
- They miss greens
- Tank pulls too slowly to edges
- CC too slow
- People get ported and die on damaging AoE
- Bad Tank
- Healer not healing enough
etcPretty much nobody hits the enrage timer and then dies because of that. If you get that far, you can kill VG because you understand all the mechanics and after a few more wipes can probably execute them properly.
It’s an extremely reasonable assumption that 15% damage reduction will not change much and would still be too hard for most people that can’t kill VG now.
It would shorten the fight time in those phases where you have to deal with those mechanics, reducing the likelihood for error.
But, yea, it may not be the right path to take. It may require reducing the overall damage the green circles (or similar mechanic in other fights) do or lowering the number of people needed in them to 2 or something – or doubling the time people have to get to the green circle before it explodes. There are a lot of ways to go with it.
But would it be possible? Of course it would. How much effort and balancing it would take – and where is the cutoff where it would no longer be realistically worth doing – those are questions only Anet can answer.
But, again, I think it worth dealing with. Making raids more appealing to larger groups of people is good for the game (reduces the “content drought” issue) and for raiding in general (more people get a taste and start taking steps to becoming harder core raiders adds to the pool of potential pugs).
Or it makes the content droughts even longer. Either more resources are taken from raids, or more resources taken from living story.
And we’re talking about a mode that’s not meant to have much staying power.
I think you are vastly underestimating the amount of thought this endeavor would require. In fact, Gaile warned about making this mistake.
How easy is too easy? Is the unbound guardian too easy?
Is it easy enough? Will groups still wipe on the mechanics?
What about the reward? How to we balance those?
Will players continue to play this content? Well it last for years, like dungeons?
And, ultimately, what player population would this serve? A group of players who can’t even organize into a party of 10? Who find the open world version not enough?
At best, I find the easy-mode arguments not thought out very well. At worst, I see a group of people who simply dislikes raids and wants to discontinue its development.
But what I find across both groups is a failure to identify a problem. Anet has provided solutions, pretty good ones, in my opinion.
Boss too hard? Try one of the easier raids. Or open world. Or fractals (one dev even said the new swamp was meant to be a stepping stone into raids).
Missing lore? Find a completed instance. Or talk to the NPCs that give a recap. And the raid story is a side story anyway.
Seekers and Blue Circles still hit fairly hard from the Unbound Guardian, the green circle gives an incentive to ranged standing inside of it for a damage buff rather than preventing a wipe mechanic.
So far i have seen people at LUG fleeing from “those green AoE’s”, and trying to gather seekers together in order to better stack and cleave them about as often (if not more often) than stacking in green circles and avoiding real AoEs. And i haven’t noticed any meaningful real difference between those two in how much the guardian went down. Yeah, the second group did it 1-2 minutes faster, maybe.
Go to Bloodstone Fen and fight the Unbound Guardian. Lern that fight and then you got your first easy mode boss.
100% this. It is an intelligent reuse of assets and it is great way to learn a bit about VG mechanics without having to form a group to raid.
What mechanics? Any “mechanics” of legendary unbound guardian could as well be just visuals for how much they impact the fight (hint: none at all).
It’s as if devs decided to make a jab at people asking for easy mode raids, by using a strawman example of one (and hinting using the name of the achieve that’s the best people can count on seeing). Any ties to vale guardian are nothing more than a bad (and definitely not funny) joke .So just like the mechanics people want for easy raid ( non wiping ones ), see how this is bad? And if there are a wiping mechanic they will say thats not easy.
No. As i said it was a strawman example of “easy mode”. The one raiders claim people ask for, but not the one people asking actually want.
What i want is for the mechanics to be easier, not faceroll easy. It’s not a binary thing, there’s a ton of ground in between. Even if some people intentionally try to ignore it.
Also yes, i do care about the loot. I never claimed otherwise.
Yes there is ton of ground, that will maybe satisfy you or not , and probably not a lot of other people, because they will still fail at it ( as it will be not face roll ) so complain will still exists and now the raid group is divided in easy mode / normal mode. So in the end its way more harm/trouble then a solution for a problem that only exist if you want.
Many encounters if you remove 1 mechanic it become faceroll easy as you say. Remove Green Circle from VG = faceroll easy. Gorseval remove the enrage = slow grind his health updrafting all the time = faceroll easy. Remove warg from scort = faceroll easy. Remove cannons from sabetha = faceroll easy. Etc.
And if they dont remove this mechanic people will still fail and complain. Because they are already too easy, so its a player problem if you cant complete it in its actual state.The idea that they cannot tone the fights down in ways that don’t make them “faceroll” is a little shortsighted, in my opinion. Of course there is room.
For me, most of the people I talk to are concerned more with the limiting nature of the fights in terms of build/gear/playstyle. Removing or toning down those elements that force (to a degree) players into the meta in order to have realistic chances would be a good thing - in a lower tier level of the raid (there should also be a harder experience that rewards the work people put in).
For many players, copy/pasting a build from metabattle takes the one thing they care about most from the experience – the perceived uniqueness of their character. While they shouldn’t expect to perform at the same level as those that min/max, I don’t think it is unfair for them to expect a raid experience that doesn’t overtly punish thme for getting creative with their characters.
The bolded part, what people fail to see that the VG on BF is exactly this, but people think its just a strawman or way toned down, and its not, the actual VG is actually that weak/easy, so if you tone down the wipe mechanic you will get BF VG that you dont want.
That comparison doesn’t really work. The Unbound Guardian is weak/easy because there are 60-100 people beating on it. While it shares a model and some mechanics, it was altered to be an open world encounter, not a replacement or easy mode version in a raid.
So adding people does decrease the difficulty? Well then, considering VG was beaten by 4 people, adding 6 more should make the fight accessible to all.
NSPride <3
Seekers and Blue Circles still hit fairly hard from the Unbound Guardian, the green circle gives an incentive to ranged standing inside of it for a damage buff rather than preventing a wipe mechanic.
So far i have seen people at LUG fleeing from “those green AoE’s”, and trying to gather seekers together in order to better stack and cleave them about as often (if not more often) than stacking in green circles and avoiding real AoEs. And i haven’t noticed any meaningful real difference between those two in how much the guardian went down. Yeah, the second group did it 1-2 minutes faster, maybe.
Go to Bloodstone Fen and fight the Unbound Guardian. Lern that fight and then you got your first easy mode boss.
100% this. It is an intelligent reuse of assets and it is great way to learn a bit about VG mechanics without having to form a group to raid.
What mechanics? Any “mechanics” of legendary unbound guardian could as well be just visuals for how much they impact the fight (hint: none at all).
It’s as if devs decided to make a jab at people asking for easy mode raids, by using a strawman example of one (and hinting using the name of the achieve that’s the best people can count on seeing). Any ties to vale guardian are nothing more than a bad (and definitely not funny) joke .So just like the mechanics people want for easy raid ( non wiping ones ), see how this is bad? And if there are a wiping mechanic they will say thats not easy.
No. As i said it was a strawman example of “easy mode”. The one raiders claim people ask for, but not the one people asking actually want.
What i want is for the mechanics to be easier, not faceroll easy. It’s not a binary thing, there’s a ton of ground in between. Even if some people intentionally try to ignore it.
Also yes, i do care about the loot. I never claimed otherwise.
Yes there is ton of ground, that will maybe satisfy you or not , and probably not a lot of other people, because they will still fail at it ( as it will be not face roll ) so complain will still exists and now the raid group is divided in easy mode / normal mode. So in the end its way more harm/trouble then a solution for a problem that only exist if you want.
Many encounters if you remove 1 mechanic it become faceroll easy as you say. Remove Green Circle from VG = faceroll easy. Gorseval remove the enrage = slow grind his health updrafting all the time = faceroll easy. Remove warg from scort = faceroll easy. Remove cannons from sabetha = faceroll easy. Etc.
And if they dont remove this mechanic people will still fail and complain. Because they are already too easy, so its a player problem if you cant complete it in its actual state.The idea that they cannot tone the fights down in ways that don’t make them “faceroll” is a little shortsighted, in my opinion. Of course there is room.
For me, most of the people I talk to are concerned more with the limiting nature of the fights in terms of build/gear/playstyle. Removing or toning down those elements that force (to a degree) players into the meta in order to have realistic chances would be a good thing - in a lower tier level of the raid (there should also be a harder experience that rewards the work people put in).
For many players, copy/pasting a build from metabattle takes the one thing they care about most from the experience – the perceived uniqueness of their character. While they shouldn’t expect to perform at the same level as those that min/max, I don’t think it is unfair for them to expect a raid experience that doesn’t overtly punish thme for getting creative with their characters.
The bolded part, what people fail to see that the VG on BF is exactly this, but people think its just a strawman or way toned down, and its not, the actual VG is actually that weak/easy, so if you tone down the wipe mechanic you will get BF VG that you dont want.
That comparison doesn’t really work. The Unbound Guardian is weak/easy because there are 60-100 people beating on it. While it shares a model and some mechanics, it was altered to be an open world encounter, not a replacement or easy mode version in a raid.
So adding people does decrease the difficulty? Well then, considering VG was beaten by 4 people, adding 6 more should make the fight accessible to all.
If you want to make that argument work you should say easy mode should have 15 people instead of 10 without difficulty changes.
Honestly, it doesn’t sound that bad
So adding people does decrease the difficulty? Well then, considering VG was beaten by 4 people, adding 6 more should make the fight accessible to all.
If you want to make that argument work you should say easy mode should have 15 people instead of 10 without difficulty changes.
Honestly, it doesn’t sound that bad
Just imagine 15 people in that tiny arena, would be an awful experience. And i bet that they would still fail, people would go down, people would stop dpsing for ressing, then green show, people miss it, boom 15 dead players.
Seekers and Blue Circles still hit fairly hard from the Unbound Guardian, the green circle gives an incentive to ranged standing inside of it for a damage buff rather than preventing a wipe mechanic.
So far i have seen people at LUG fleeing from “those green AoE’s”, and trying to gather seekers together in order to better stack and cleave them about as often (if not more often) than stacking in green circles and avoiding real AoEs. And i haven’t noticed any meaningful real difference between those two in how much the guardian went down. Yeah, the second group did it 1-2 minutes faster, maybe.
Go to Bloodstone Fen and fight the Unbound Guardian. Lern that fight and then you got your first easy mode boss.
100% this. It is an intelligent reuse of assets and it is great way to learn a bit about VG mechanics without having to form a group to raid.
What mechanics? Any “mechanics” of legendary unbound guardian could as well be just visuals for how much they impact the fight (hint: none at all).
It’s as if devs decided to make a jab at people asking for easy mode raids, by using a strawman example of one (and hinting using the name of the achieve that’s the best people can count on seeing). Any ties to vale guardian are nothing more than a bad (and definitely not funny) joke .So just like the mechanics people want for easy raid ( non wiping ones ), see how this is bad? And if there are a wiping mechanic they will say thats not easy.
No. As i said it was a strawman example of “easy mode”. The one raiders claim people ask for, but not the one people asking actually want.
What i want is for the mechanics to be easier, not faceroll easy. It’s not a binary thing, there’s a ton of ground in between. Even if some people intentionally try to ignore it.
Also yes, i do care about the loot. I never claimed otherwise.
Yes there is ton of ground, that will maybe satisfy you or not , and probably not a lot of other people, because they will still fail at it ( as it will be not face roll ) so complain will still exists and now the raid group is divided in easy mode / normal mode. So in the end its way more harm/trouble then a solution for a problem that only exist if you want.
Many encounters if you remove 1 mechanic it become faceroll easy as you say. Remove Green Circle from VG = faceroll easy. Gorseval remove the enrage = slow grind his health updrafting all the time = faceroll easy. Remove warg from scort = faceroll easy. Remove cannons from sabetha = faceroll easy. Etc.
And if they dont remove this mechanic people will still fail and complain. Because they are already too easy, so its a player problem if you cant complete it in its actual state.The idea that they cannot tone the fights down in ways that don’t make them “faceroll” is a little shortsighted, in my opinion. Of course there is room.
For me, most of the people I talk to are concerned more with the limiting nature of the fights in terms of build/gear/playstyle. Removing or toning down those elements that force (to a degree) players into the meta in order to have realistic chances would be a good thing - in a lower tier level of the raid (there should also be a harder experience that rewards the work people put in).
For many players, copy/pasting a build from metabattle takes the one thing they care about most from the experience – the perceived uniqueness of their character. While they shouldn’t expect to perform at the same level as those that min/max, I don’t think it is unfair for them to expect a raid experience that doesn’t overtly punish thme for getting creative with their characters.
The bolded part, what people fail to see that the VG on BF is exactly this, but people think its just a strawman or way toned down, and its not, the actual VG is actually that weak/easy, so if you tone down the wipe mechanic you will get BF VG that you dont want.
That comparison doesn’t really work. The Unbound Guardian is weak/easy because there are 60-100 people beating on it. While it shares a model and some mechanics, it was altered to be an open world encounter, not a replacement or easy mode version in a raid.
So adding people does decrease the difficulty? Well then, considering VG was beaten by 4 people, adding 6 more should make the fight accessible to all.
If you want to make that argument work you should say easy mode should have 15 people instead of 10 without difficulty changes.
Honestly, it doesn’t sound that bad
My statement works regardless of what you suggest I say.
NSPride <3
So adding people does decrease the difficulty? Well then, considering VG was beaten by 4 people, adding 6 more should make the fight accessible to all.
If you want to make that argument work you should say easy mode should have 15 people instead of 10 without difficulty changes.
Honestly, it doesn’t sound that bad
Just imagine 15 people in that tiny arena, would be an awful experience. And i bet that they would still fail, people would go down, people would stop dpsing for ressing, then green show, people miss it, boom 15 dead players.
This sounds about right.
NSPride <3
(edited by Razor.9872)
So adding people does decrease the difficulty? Well then, considering VG was beaten by 4 people, adding 6 more should make the fight accessible to all.
If you want to make that argument work you should say easy mode should have 15 people instead of 10 without difficulty changes.
Honestly, it doesn’t sound that bad
Just imagine 15 people in that tiny arena, would be an awful experience. And i bet that they would still fail, people would go down, people would stop dpsing for ressing, then green show, people miss it, boom 15 dead players.
What would make 15 man an awful experience that 10 doesn’t? And of course there still would be fails , but 15 man allows wider build variety, they could bring more healers or be tankier in general. Also losing people in a 15 group is a lot more forgiving
Seekers and Blue Circles still hit fairly hard from the Unbound Guardian, the green circle gives an incentive to ranged standing inside of it for a damage buff rather than preventing a wipe mechanic.
So far i have seen people at LUG fleeing from “those green AoE’s”, and trying to gather seekers together in order to better stack and cleave them about as often (if not more often) than stacking in green circles and avoiding real AoEs. And i haven’t noticed any meaningful real difference between those two in how much the guardian went down. Yeah, the second group did it 1-2 minutes faster, maybe.
Go to Bloodstone Fen and fight the Unbound Guardian. Lern that fight and then you got your first easy mode boss.
100% this. It is an intelligent reuse of assets and it is great way to learn a bit about VG mechanics without having to form a group to raid.
What mechanics? Any “mechanics” of legendary unbound guardian could as well be just visuals for how much they impact the fight (hint: none at all).
It’s as if devs decided to make a jab at people asking for easy mode raids, by using a strawman example of one (and hinting using the name of the achieve that’s the best people can count on seeing). Any ties to vale guardian are nothing more than a bad (and definitely not funny) joke .So just like the mechanics people want for easy raid ( non wiping ones ), see how this is bad? And if there are a wiping mechanic they will say thats not easy.
No. As i said it was a strawman example of “easy mode”. The one raiders claim people ask for, but not the one people asking actually want.
What i want is for the mechanics to be easier, not faceroll easy. It’s not a binary thing, there’s a ton of ground in between. Even if some people intentionally try to ignore it.
Also yes, i do care about the loot. I never claimed otherwise.
Yes there is ton of ground, that will maybe satisfy you or not , and probably not a lot of other people, because they will still fail at it ( as it will be not face roll ) so complain will still exists and now the raid group is divided in easy mode / normal mode. So in the end its way more harm/trouble then a solution for a problem that only exist if you want.
Many encounters if you remove 1 mechanic it become faceroll easy as you say. Remove Green Circle from VG = faceroll easy. Gorseval remove the enrage = slow grind his health updrafting all the time = faceroll easy. Remove warg from scort = faceroll easy. Remove cannons from sabetha = faceroll easy. Etc.
And if they dont remove this mechanic people will still fail and complain. Because they are already too easy, so its a player problem if you cant complete it in its actual state.The idea that they cannot tone the fights down in ways that don’t make them “faceroll” is a little shortsighted, in my opinion. Of course there is room.
For me, most of the people I talk to are concerned more with the limiting nature of the fights in terms of build/gear/playstyle. Removing or toning down those elements that force (to a degree) players into the meta in order to have realistic chances would be a good thing - in a lower tier level of the raid (there should also be a harder experience that rewards the work people put in).
For many players, copy/pasting a build from metabattle takes the one thing they care about most from the experience – the perceived uniqueness of their character. While they shouldn’t expect to perform at the same level as those that min/max, I don’t think it is unfair for them to expect a raid experience that doesn’t overtly punish thme for getting creative with their characters.
The bolded part, what people fail to see that the VG on BF is exactly this, but people think its just a strawman or way toned down, and its not, the actual VG is actually that weak/easy, so if you tone down the wipe mechanic you will get BF VG that you dont want.
That comparison doesn’t really work. The Unbound Guardian is weak/easy because there are 60-100 people beating on it. While it shares a model and some mechanics, it was altered to be an open world encounter, not a replacement or easy mode version in a raid.
So adding people does decrease the difficulty? Well then, considering VG was beaten by 4 people, adding 6 more should make the fight accessible to all.
If you want to make that argument work you should say easy mode should have 15 people instead of 10 without difficulty changes.
Honestly, it doesn’t sound that bad
My statement works regardless of what you suggest I say.
And I just used your statement under realistic circumstances since we know the vast majority of raid boss clears are 10 mans
So adding people does decrease the difficulty? Well then, considering VG was beaten by 4 people, adding 6 more should make the fight accessible to all.
If you want to make that argument work you should say easy mode should have 15 people instead of 10 without difficulty changes.
Honestly, it doesn’t sound that bad
Just imagine 15 people in that tiny arena, would be an awful experience. And i bet that they would still fail, people would go down, people would stop dpsing for ressing, then green show, people miss it, boom 15 dead players.
What would make 15 man an awful experience that 10 doesn’t? And of course there still would be fails , but 15 man allows wider build variety, they could bring more healers or be tankier in general. Also losing people in a 15 group is a lot more forgiving
The arena is small for 15 players. But that aside, people would still demand meta, because you know 10 is already very forgiving (as it can be done with 4), so why people dont accept your variety? Because its easy to associate someone going in tankier gear = can’t handle the encounter (which is almost always true ). Adding more 5 players wont change that. As everyone say in every topic. Want variety? Post on lfg your group and put that you accept any build, bam variety.
I’m in a guild that does runs every single day, with first come first serve base, and its accept anything, we did a 10 man vg with everyone running random builds ( i was condi thief with a mix of rampager / carrion exotics its just a char that i only use for open world ) and it was easy.
I don’t think people actually understand what the groups that clear with 4 people or super fast (and, in some cases, super slow) do to make that happen.
They research all of the systems involved down to the minutest of details (of both the encounter and the professions involved). They practice for hours and hours. Every thing is planned and perfectly executed to achieve a singular goal.
But, what they do isn’t designed to work with regular groups. It is designed around those details.
It is VERY impressive, but using speed clears and abnormal groups to somehow invalidate the difficulty of regular raiding is based on faulty assumptions. Anyone that has raided in any serious raiding game knows that – and realizes what it is really about.
Back on topic -
As for the idea of allowing more people (15) into the current raid as a way to offer scalable difficulty, I would be all for it – but I suspect there are probably major technical limitations involved in making that happen. But, if they could, I could definitely see it working (provided, of course, the reward was less prestigious than that for 10 player groups).
So adding people does decrease the difficulty? Well then, considering VG was beaten by 4 people, adding 6 more should make the fight accessible to all.
If you want to make that argument work you should say easy mode should have 15 people instead of 10 without difficulty changes.
Honestly, it doesn’t sound that bad
Just imagine 15 people in that tiny arena, would be an awful experience. And i bet that they would still fail, people would go down, people would stop dpsing for ressing, then green show, people miss it, boom 15 dead players.
What would make 15 man an awful experience that 10 doesn’t? And of course there still would be fails , but 15 man allows wider build variety, they could bring more healers or be tankier in general. Also losing people in a 15 group is a lot more forgiving
The arena is small for 15 players. But that aside, people would still demand meta, because you know 10 is already very forgiving (as it can be done with 4), so why people dont accept your variety? Because its easy to associate someone going in tankier gear = can’t handle the encounter (which is almost always true ). Adding more 5 players wont change that. As everyone say in every topic. Want variety? Post on lfg your group and put that you accept any build, bam variety.
I’m in a guild that does runs every single day, with first come first serve base, and its accept anything, we did a 10 man vg with everyone running random builds ( i was condi thief with a mix of rampager / carrion exotics its just a char that i only use for open world ) and it was easy.
The Cave Guardian takes place at a lot smaller place than the Vale Guardian, I didn’t really see a complain about that, but there are still around 40 people there. Also would they still require the meta if it was 20 man? or 40? at some point the meta becomes unnecessary.
So adding people does decrease the difficulty? Well then, considering VG was beaten by 4 people, adding 6 more should make the fight accessible to all.
If you want to make that argument work you should say easy mode should have 15 people instead of 10 without difficulty changes.
Honestly, it doesn’t sound that bad
Just imagine 15 people in that tiny arena, would be an awful experience. And i bet that they would still fail, people would go down, people would stop dpsing for ressing, then green show, people miss it, boom 15 dead players.
What would make 15 man an awful experience that 10 doesn’t? And of course there still would be fails , but 15 man allows wider build variety, they could bring more healers or be tankier in general. Also losing people in a 15 group is a lot more forgiving
The arena is small for 15 players. But that aside, people would still demand meta, because you know 10 is already very forgiving (as it can be done with 4), so why people dont accept your variety? Because its easy to associate someone going in tankier gear = can’t handle the encounter (which is almost always true ). Adding more 5 players wont change that. As everyone say in every topic. Want variety? Post on lfg your group and put that you accept any build, bam variety.
I’m in a guild that does runs every single day, with first come first serve base, and its accept anything, we did a 10 man vg with everyone running random builds ( i was condi thief with a mix of rampager / carrion exotics its just a char that i only use for open world ) and it was easy.The Cave Guardian takes place at a lot smaller place than the Vale Guardian, I didn’t really see a complain about that, but there are still around 40 people there. Also would they still require the meta if it was 20 man? or 40? at some point the meta becomes unnecessary.
The point where it becomes UG
So adding people does decrease the difficulty? Well then, considering VG was beaten by 4 people, adding 6 more should make the fight accessible to all.
If you want to make that argument work you should say easy mode should have 15 people instead of 10 without difficulty changes.
Honestly, it doesn’t sound that bad
Just imagine 15 people in that tiny arena, would be an awful experience. And i bet that they would still fail, people would go down, people would stop dpsing for ressing, then green show, people miss it, boom 15 dead players.
What would make 15 man an awful experience that 10 doesn’t? And of course there still would be fails , but 15 man allows wider build variety, they could bring more healers or be tankier in general. Also losing people in a 15 group is a lot more forgiving
The arena is small for 15 players. But that aside, people would still demand meta, because you know 10 is already very forgiving (as it can be done with 4), so why people dont accept your variety? Because its easy to associate someone going in tankier gear = can’t handle the encounter (which is almost always true ). Adding more 5 players wont change that. As everyone say in every topic. Want variety? Post on lfg your group and put that you accept any build, bam variety.
I’m in a guild that does runs every single day, with first come first serve base, and its accept anything, we did a 10 man vg with everyone running random builds ( i was condi thief with a mix of rampager / carrion exotics its just a char that i only use for open world ) and it was easy.The Cave Guardian takes place at a lot smaller place than the Vale Guardian, I didn’t really see a complain about that, but there are still around 40 people there. Also would they still require the meta if it was 20 man? or 40? at some point the meta becomes unnecessary.
The point where it becomes UG
Then simply by adjusting the party cap we could have a tiered difficulty system which allows for current or even harder than the current difficulty, open world difficulty and something in between like dungeons.
So adding people does decrease the difficulty? Well then, considering VG was beaten by 4 people, adding 6 more should make the fight accessible to all.
If you want to make that argument work you should say easy mode should have 15 people instead of 10 without difficulty changes.
Honestly, it doesn’t sound that bad
Just imagine 15 people in that tiny arena, would be an awful experience. And i bet that they would still fail, people would go down, people would stop dpsing for ressing, then green show, people miss it, boom 15 dead players.
What would make 15 man an awful experience that 10 doesn’t? And of course there still would be fails , but 15 man allows wider build variety, they could bring more healers or be tankier in general. Also losing people in a 15 group is a lot more forgiving
The arena is small for 15 players. But that aside, people would still demand meta, because you know 10 is already very forgiving (as it can be done with 4), so why people dont accept your variety? Because its easy to associate someone going in tankier gear = can’t handle the encounter (which is almost always true ). Adding more 5 players wont change that. As everyone say in every topic. Want variety? Post on lfg your group and put that you accept any build, bam variety.
I’m in a guild that does runs every single day, with first come first serve base, and its accept anything, we did a 10 man vg with everyone running random builds ( i was condi thief with a mix of rampager / carrion exotics its just a char that i only use for open world ) and it was easy.The Cave Guardian takes place at a lot smaller place than the Vale Guardian, I didn’t really see a complain about that, but there are still around 40 people there. Also would they still require the meta if it was 20 man? or 40? at some point the meta becomes unnecessary.
The point where it becomes UG
Then simply by adjusting the party cap we could have a tiered difficulty system which allows for current or even harder than the current difficulty, open world difficulty and something in between like dungeons.
No, you have UG or people will fail, and if you have UG instanced its not a raid, its just something below even a dungeon.
And let me ask a question about build variety. Have you ever tried to get 10 people with your build variety? If not, you should not ask for a raid that allows it if you dont know if the current allows (because it does), and if you tried and failed, you failed because of the raid doesnt allow your builds or just because you cant do the mechanics?
So adding people does decrease the difficulty? Well then, considering VG was beaten by 4 people, adding 6 more should make the fight accessible to all.
If you want to make that argument work you should say easy mode should have 15 people instead of 10 without difficulty changes.
Honestly, it doesn’t sound that bad
Just imagine 15 people in that tiny arena, would be an awful experience. And i bet that they would still fail, people would go down, people would stop dpsing for ressing, then green show, people miss it, boom 15 dead players.
What would make 15 man an awful experience that 10 doesn’t? And of course there still would be fails , but 15 man allows wider build variety, they could bring more healers or be tankier in general. Also losing people in a 15 group is a lot more forgiving
The arena is small for 15 players. But that aside, people would still demand meta, because you know 10 is already very forgiving (as it can be done with 4), so why people dont accept your variety? Because its easy to associate someone going in tankier gear = can’t handle the encounter (which is almost always true ). Adding more 5 players wont change that. As everyone say in every topic. Want variety? Post on lfg your group and put that you accept any build, bam variety.
I’m in a guild that does runs every single day, with first come first serve base, and its accept anything, we did a 10 man vg with everyone running random builds ( i was condi thief with a mix of rampager / carrion exotics its just a char that i only use for open world ) and it was easy.The Cave Guardian takes place at a lot smaller place than the Vale Guardian, I didn’t really see a complain about that, but there are still around 40 people there. Also would they still require the meta if it was 20 man? or 40? at some point the meta becomes unnecessary.
The point where it becomes UG
Then simply by adjusting the party cap we could have a tiered difficulty system which allows for current or even harder than the current difficulty, open world difficulty and something in between like dungeons.
No, you have UG or people will fail, and if you have UG instanced its not a raid, its just something below even a dungeon.
And let me ask a question about build variety. Have you ever tried to get 10 people with your build variety? If not, you should not ask for a raid that allows it if you dont know if the current allows (because it does), and if you tried and failed, you failed because of the raid doesnt allow your builds or just because you cant do the mechanics?
But if UG instanced is something below even a dungeon , and if we have something that is harder than UG people will fail, that would mean people who can’t raid can’t even complete dungeons. I sincerely doubt that.
On build diversity , yes, I dare to say an average player has to follow the meta in order to be succesful at raiding, but it is obvious it is not a requirement to complete it. If it was, we wouldn’t see low man clears. Also I don’t understand what you mean under my build variety, I followed the meta, cleared wings and I can see why people don’t like that. Of course I could bring different gear & skills and still succeed , but most likely if everyone did that we would ultimately fail.
There are people who adapted a playstyle over 3 years of playing GW2, and that playstyle doesn’t fit into raiding. If they refuse or can’t change they will be excluded from all future end-game content , which I don’t want. All I want is a more forgiving mode that allows participation of those who currently can’t.
There are people who adapted a playstyle over 3 years of playing GW2, and that playstyle doesn’t fit into raiding. If they refuse or can’t change they will be excluded from all future end-game content , which I don’t want. All I want is a more forgiving mode that allows participation of those who currently can’t.
i could refuse to do any number of things in the game but it’s not reasonable for me to expect anet to adjust that content to cater to me. raids are no different
you have to prove that something is preventing people from adapting to the content and broadly speaking there are no drastic issues which are doing that
Nalhadia – Kaineng
There are people who adapted a playstyle over 3 years of playing GW2, and that playstyle doesn’t fit into raiding. If they refuse or can’t change they will be excluded from all future end-game content , which I don’t want. All I want is a more forgiving mode that allows participation of those who currently can’t.
Now lets be serious here, if your build is at least average you will clear the encounter, if your build is so bad that it cant clear the content in its current state then you are being delusional about A-Net needing to catter the end game content for these people. If people playstile are the worst combination of gear, and using only 1 skill while watching netflix there is 0 reason for then to complete the content no matter what you say.
There are people who adapted a playstyle over 3 years of playing GW2, and that playstyle doesn’t fit into raiding. If they refuse or can’t change they will be excluded from all future end-game content , which I don’t want. All I want is a more forgiving mode that allows participation of those who currently can’t.
i could refuse to do any number of things in the game but it’s not reasonable for me to expect anet to adjust that content to cater to me. raids are no different
you have to prove that something is preventing people from adapting to the content and broadly speaking there are no drastic issues which are doing that
The way you worded that sounds like you think I want the current form to cease existing, but I don’t remember giving you reason for that. A minority is raiding, which is known, and I only aim to change that.
Something is preventing people from doing the content, I can’t give you proof what, and I only could talk in the name of the people I spoke with, and yes, most of the issues would be resolved with an alternate version. Also if there are no drastic issues preventing people from getting into raiding, be my guest and explain why they don’t
http://www.strawpoll.me/10553512/r
(Sidenote, this poll was created about 7 month after the first wing released on reddit, meaning people who wanted to raid had plenty of time to adapt, yet they didn’t)
Now lets be serious here, if your build is at least average you will clear the encounter, if your build is so bad that it cant clear the content in its current state then you are being delusional about A-Net needing to catter the end game content for these people. If people playstile are the worst combination of gear, and using only 1 skill while watching netflix there is 0 reason for then to complete the content no matter what you say.
I only have one question then, what is Anet’s reason to cater the endgame to you?
Also your argument makes zero sense, my proposal by increasing the party cap wouldn’t remove any mechanic, people would still die from sabetha’s flamethrower , they would still watch out for every mechanic there is , so care to explain to me how does “using only 1 skill while watching netflix” comes into the picture?
Also just for the fun of it, please tell me how does an average Chrono build looks, which, as you imply, isn’t meta.
Would’nt simple “enter story mode/enter explorable mode” solve it ?
Story mode that can be done in a normal party, with toned down difficulty and mechanics, no achievements other than mastery unlocking, and a low value loot (no chance for asc, 3-5 shards per wing) and explorable would be current raid difficulty, rewards etc.
I for example dont care about leg. armor, nor do i care about challenging content. I like to enjoy the game with guilmates, see a bit of story, get hyped for the next expansion…
Many will tell me simply “Git gud” but i dont suppose that was ever the idea behind gw2 community.
I agree with the original poster I love raids but I have a life and can’t sit down for hours and raid hardcore. I think World of Warcraft did good with there looking for raid option giving casuals the ability to see the same content in a more casual fashion. Also for the new players late to the raiding scene it’s nearly impossible for them to get groups as the raiding community is toxic and it’s bleeding over into fractals if you wipe once they leave or start blaming the group.
I’d love to see this raid but I can’t get a group and i don’t have the time to devote long hours learning encounters. This takes me to my final point, this goes against Anet original vision no grind and casual for all. Raids are great but they need to be available to the masses other wise it creates a toxic environment and only a fraction of your player base is seeing the content.
Raids weren’t built for “the most”. They were designed for the few people that desire harder content. If you can’t get into it, go do something else.
Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death.
I agree with the original poster I love raids but I have a life and can’t sit down for hours and raid hardcore. I think World of Warcraft did good with there looking for raid option giving casuals the ability to see the same content in a more casual fashion. Also for the new players late to the raiding scene it’s nearly impossible for them to get groups as the raiding community is toxic and it’s bleeding over into fractals if you wipe once they leave or start blaming the group.
I’d love to see this raid but I can’t get a group and i don’t have the time to devote long hours learning encounters. This takes me to my final point, this goes against Anet original vision no grind and casual for all. Raids are great but they need to be available to the masses other wise it creates a toxic environment and only a fraction of your player base is seeing the content.
This couldnt be more far from the truth. I’m a married man, i have a job and family, i have limited playtime and still i can enjoy raids. A raid encounter have a limit of 10 minutes ( more or less ) to finish so its miles faster than doing a dungeon or fractal.
Raids weren’t built for “the most”. They were designed for the few people that desire harder content.
Then they shouldn’t gate content that might be desirable to people outside that small group.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Raids weren’t built for “the most”. They were designed for the few people that desire harder content.
Then they shouldn’t gate content that might be desirable to people outside that small group.
Proof of said gate please ?
If you claim story → W3 has an entire recap for you
If you claim rewards → The entire game has region/map specific rewards
You’re not gated any more than the you make yourself be gated.
Something is preventing people from doing the content, I can’t give you proof what, and I only could talk in the name of the people I spoke with, and yes, most of the issues would be resolved with an alternate version. Also if there are no drastic issues preventing people from getting into raiding, be my guest and explain why they don’t
http://www.strawpoll.me/10553512/r
(Sidenote, this poll was created about 7 month after the first wing released on reddit, meaning people who wanted to raid had plenty of time to adapt, yet they didn’t)
I think, no I am 100% sure, that you are making wrong conclusions out of the stated facts.
1. The results of the poll were very even with a majority in “No, I would like to.”
But this majority is only 38% (that’s why I say very even). The thing here is, nobody knows what is preventing these folks from doing raids. But if you take into consideration – and this is a must with a look at the past in GW2 – that most if not almost all players are joining an existing group rather than setting up an own group, I know why this number of 38% exists.
People are lazy, looking for the fastest way to achieve their goal (comparable to fast looting guys —> Tarir and stuff) and maybe some are shy a.k.a. not meant to be a leader (= former of an lfg). Even in times of daily dungeon runs the most complaints were: “They kicked me.”, “They didn’t let me into their party.” or “Why are there only exp groups in the lfg.” when the easiest thing was to set up the lfg on your own. People still aren’t doing that for dungeons and fractals until today! They sit in front of the monitor and wait until the right lfg is popping up.
2. Due to the fact that I see people – boys and many girls – raiding that have never done dungeons or fractals in a consequent daily manner before, is a clear sign that raids aren’t hard content or that the content itself excludes players. Some of those guys I met were such bad players in the past I was surprised that they are clearing raid bosses regularly now and I feel happy for them because they are enjoying content like that.
3. The poll is too old while there are so many guides out now, helping & training guilds and a more forgiving wing 3.
Additionally I’ve been around in Bloodstone Fen a lot the past days – only snarky comments to the Unbound Guardian – all of them from raiders. Still I haven’t noticed any comment against raids or equal stuff ingame.
It’s almost the same in the forums, very few people being negative towards raids which is absolutely ok. Keep in mind, we have always the same names posting. I’m not saying this should be neglected at all but if there is really a critical mass shouting against raids we would hear them, not a few guys repeating “there are many outside that aren’t pleased with raids” and so on. The argument of the “majority is afraid of posting here” is not legit. Complaints would have risen and become louder and heavier – the fact: not here and not many complaints about raids, not even in the discussion forum…
I rather believe that most of the people who aren’t playing raids are just not interested in them and still enjoying this game.
Took me 3 runs of the dungeon to get the bug.
(edited by Vinceman.4572)
[Snip]
Forming an own group would be the last thing I would suggest to those who can’t get into the current raid. If they do that not only they have to coordinate 9 other player other than themself , they have to know every person’s role and what they are supposed to do. Combine that with little to no experience with the mechanics and you get the equation for a very bad experience with this particular content, which, in my opinion would only drive people from the “No, but I would like to.” column to the “No, the raids don’t interest me.”.
You and I seem to agree on one thing though. Raids in themselves are not hard. What I see in most cases being the reason that drives away people from doing raids is the preparation. There is the preparation everyone has to go trough, know your profession, gear up properly, learn the mechanics. Then comes the hard part, which can be divided into two groups, be in a static group, meaning you have to be online at particular times then play indefinitely without interruption, or be excluded from the group, or even be excluded anyway because there are no rooms to fill, or there might be not even be enough people online to start. Then there are those who do it with pugs, they need to find and depend on 9 other people every time they start ,which over time gets really exhausting and unfun. This is the part of raiding I take issue with, because like you and many others said, raids are in general are not long, but to prepare doing them a new player might have to prepare from weeks to months even though they could clear any other content in the game.
Also regarding the poll, I didn’t believe it was accurate to begin with, only those participated who browse reddit, not the general playerbase of the game. I believe those who browse reddit, meaning they care about the game more than the average, are more likely to find raiding group, which results the raider players of the poll to be much lower than the way the poll represents.
Forming an own group would be the last thing I would suggest to those who can’t get into the current raid. If they do that not only they have to coordinate 9 other player other than themself , they have to know every person’s role and what they are supposed to do. Combine that with little to no experience with the mechanics and you get the equation for a very bad experience with this particular content, which, in my opinion would only drive people from the “No, but I would like to.” column to the “No, the raids don’t interest me.”.
Well, it’s the first step for raiding to just have a look on how the raids are implemented and how this thing is working. We did so in the first days when we had 0 experience and just wanted to see what’s going on.
First step done!
Afterwards you will have a proper look on what is needed and how possible it is to kill a boss. Therefore you would join training groups and guilds – this is what people are also not doing and that’s the main issue people feel excluded although they are excluding themselves.
In terms of group preparation and that it takes long to organize I disagree completely. People are just lazy. The first groups a new player is organizing won’t be the optimum because he doesn’t know better and maybe he has to look for 10-20 minutes but doing this several times even newer players will become better in it and at the moment I can set up an lfg which is full a few minutes. Trust me, the overall point here is lazyness. It’s not a question of “Where to start?”!
Also, a player that wants to raid has exotics minimum nowadays, actually most of those players already have ascended gear + they have more than one char to play (at least in exotics), so there shouldn’t be a problem to build a proper group. (Not to speak of a chrono in commander or condis in viper because that isn’t needed at all to train + having success).
The biggest issue is not to start, the biggest issue of those players is to be and stay tolerant towards frustration and bring enough patience.
You can see that in several experienced pugs too when people are leaving after 1 or 2 wipes although it went good. The chasm becomes apparent when you compare SW, Tarir, CS trains, easy dungeon and low level fracs etc. with raids. The approaches are totally different and you just have to use a diverse mind set.
Took me 3 runs of the dungeon to get the bug.
Forming an own group would be the last thing I would suggest to those who can’t get into the current raid. If they do that not only they have to coordinate 9 other player other than themself , they have to know every person’s role and what they are supposed to do. Combine that with little to no experience with the mechanics and you get the equation for a very bad experience with this particular content, which, in my opinion would only drive people from the “No, but I would like to.” column to the “No, the raids don’t interest me.”.
The biggest issue is not to start, the biggest issue of those players is to be and stay tolerant towards frustration and bring enough patience.
oh, I didn’t know you were a fan of frustration, I have no more question then .
Also you can disagree all you want, I’ve organized several boss clears and the organization part was often times twice as long as beating the encounter itself. So much fun.
oh, I didn’t know you were a fan of frustration, I have no more question then .
Also you can disagree all you want, I’ve organized several boss clears and the organization part was often times twice as long as beating the encounter itself. So much fun.
?
Where did I say I am a fan of frustration? Read properly please!
Raids are implemented in a way you cannot go into it and beat them on the first try. That’s what Anet wanted to achieve with “challenging content” and they did good with it – we need such content otherwise this game would be boring as hell.
The standard casual player just have to rebalance his mind when wanting to go in. Because this content is diametral compared to the Tarir meta or Vinewrath in SW.
A problem only occurs if such a player is saying: “No, I want my loot after doing something.” plus “It has to work and I should be successful, no matter what.” but this is the wrong attitude for this special content – nothing else.
One last note to organization: Sure, there are times when the whole lfg asks for chrono tanks, but usually, if you set the right requirements and you have several multiclass players with you, you don’t need very long to organize. I pug weekly and in my groups we are good to go after 5-10 minutes and need another 10-30 minutes to kill a boss depending on the group.
This Monday I pugged W1 once again, 15 minutes organization because the leader was very calm and sedate + 45 minutes clearing time. Nothing to complain, imho.
Took me 3 runs of the dungeon to get the bug.
(edited by Vinceman.4572)
One last note to organization: Sure, there are times when the whole lfg asks for chrono tanks, but usually, if you set the right requirements and you have several multiclass players with you, you don’t need very long to organize. I pug weekly and in my groups we are good to go after 5-10 minutes and need another 10-30 minutes to kill a boss depending on the group.
This Monday I pugged W1 once again, 15 minutes organization because the leader was very calm and sedate + 45 minutes clearing time. Nothing to complain, imho.
That’s only when you get a group that is already expreienced. You won’t get to that stage without needing to get past that organizational hurdle at some point in your raiding career, though.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
One last note to organization: Sure, there are times when the whole lfg asks for chrono tanks, but usually, if you set the right requirements and you have several multiclass players with you, you don’t need very long to organize. I pug weekly and in my groups we are good to go after 5-10 minutes and need another 10-30 minutes to kill a boss depending on the group.
This Monday I pugged W1 once again, 15 minutes organization because the leader was very calm and sedate + 45 minutes clearing time. Nothing to complain, imho.That’s only when you get a group that is already expreienced. You won’t get to that stage without needing to get past that organizational hurdle at some point in your raiding career, though.
Which will become harder and harder as time goes on, people become less patient with new raiders and new raids result in fewer people running the older ones.
The logical answer is an interim level raid difficulty that a. serves as a training area for new raiders and b. offers the raid experience (story, interesting mechanics, etc) to those not wanting to (or not able to) put the time into the more advanced tiers.
That’s only when you get a group that is already expreienced. You won’t get to that stage without needing to get past that organizational hurdle at some point in your raiding career, though.
Since training runs shouldn’t have the optimal class distribution or straight follow a copy of a meta composition pattern (because this would be too much for training/practice and players don’t know why and how the comps are used [e.g. 4-4-2 or 7-2-1]), I can’t see any difference from searching as an exp group.
All you have to look for is: A healer (most often druid), a tank (class is irrelevant!), 2 or 3 condition damage player + rest.
If you do it like this you will have certain successful runs in which you don’t kill VG (as example here) but get him into splits.
You can then rethink your strategy and join groups that are also training ones but look especially your classes or you yourself setting the group specifically. Ofc you have to look out longer if you want the viper druid using this and that + 23 training runs etc. Be creative, be patient, be open-minded. At start of my raiding career I had kills with comps I was very sceptical at and even now there are weekly boss kills with “unusual” team comps.
Problem stays as I said: People starting with raiding want too much. They want the kill without practicing or putting effort into it. If these are not willing to change their mind, ok, Anet should give them the easy mode but here I stay on my previous position: No rewards included except lots of blues, greens and 1-2 rares. No shards, no exotics, no ascended stuff and no minis! I doubt players would play this more than once or to practice for the normal mode. GW2 has already shown that in the past.
Which will become harder and harder as time goes on, people become less patient with new raiders and new raids result in fewer people running the older ones.
Hard counter argument:
Tell players new to raids that they should go into a guild.
I myself am helping and training new raiders at the moment. Not every week but here and there and the ones who are willing are making progress. VG & Escort are no hurdle. We got Sloth down with 4 new players and they are on 4% Gorseval without me. It is possible as long as you want.
Took me 3 runs of the dungeon to get the bug.
(edited by Vinceman.4572)
One last note to organization: Sure, there are times when the whole lfg asks for chrono tanks, but usually, if you set the right requirements and you have several multiclass players with you, you don’t need very long to organize. I pug weekly and in my groups we are good to go after 5-10 minutes and need another 10-30 minutes to kill a boss depending on the group.
This Monday I pugged W1 once again, 15 minutes organization because the leader was very calm and sedate + 45 minutes clearing time. Nothing to complain, imho.That’s only when you get a group that is already expreienced. You won’t get to that stage without needing to get past that organizational hurdle at some point in your raiding career, though.
Which will become harder and harder as time goes on, people become less patient with new raiders and new raids result in fewer people running the older ones.
The logical answer is an interim level raid difficulty that a. serves as a training area for new raiders and b. offers the raid experience (story, interesting mechanics, etc) to those not wanting to (or not able to) put the time into the more advanced tiers.
I see the most training runs for VG, the oldest raid boss.
And I see the opposite with training runs: since the experienced players are so experienced, they’re willing to take on less experienced players, because the don’t need much from the newer players to beat the boss.
Arguments from the anti-raiders would be much more constructive if they identified actual problems, rather than posing hypothetical ones.
… anti-raiders …
Almost no one here is anti-raid.