Guild Wars 2

Blaeys.3102:

OnizukaBR.8537:

Unfortunately for you, easier mode for raids wont be made. Fractal only have tiers because they were developed with it in mind from the start. Just like dungeons never had easy mode explorable mode ( Story mode dont count as its just like another path with different bosses etc). So like dungeons A-Net made easier bosses, even without timers for those that find Sloth for example too difficult. Then you have Scort ( wing 3 first boss ), if even that is too hard for you i’m sorry, you will never raid.
A-Net knows that you cant please everyone, and raids was the best receive content for its target audience by far, so they wont change that. So yeah you can still complain and dont get anything, or you can try to find things that you enjoy in the game, raids are not one of that and its fine.

ArenaNet has a solid history of listening to ALL players and adapting systems where necessary. Just look at WvW, living story between seasons one and two, the “new player experience” change,.

The audience for raid is PVE players who enjoy grouping with friends and playing in a mid sized instance – and with that in mind, raids were most definitely not the best received content; in fact, they are probably way down the list behind missions, fractals, new maps, etc.

We’ve seen one raid. Logic dictates that they are looking at how they can improve them – and like it or not, “improve” probably means looking at how they can get more players involved in them.

I don’t think anyone other than ANet can predict how raids will evolve – and there are those among their target audience who are not thrilled with how they are now. I think changes to raids will make it into the game – and, of course, I really hope those changes directly address the issue of accessibility.

And, as always, remember that almost no one is asking them to remove the experience we have now or detract from it in any way.

The target audience was never just PvE content players that like mid size content, it was for players/guilds that wanted something harder than gw2 currently offered in the form of organized instanced content that was challenging, which is what Anet provided.

Some quotes from Anet, relative to this.

“You asked for the ultimate challenging content in Guild Wars 2—challenges that would put your skills to the test and push you and your friends to the edge to achieve victory. Now the answer is here. Today at PAX Prime, we announced that the “challenging group content” that we said would arrive with Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns™ is Raids! Built on top of our ground-breaking combat and dynamic event systems, the ultimate challenge is coming.”

“Raids are 10-player, instanced content that will introduce very challenging bosses, epic encounters, and more! And we’re building them on top of our amazing combat and dynamic event systems to create a variety of difficult challenges that will require your raiding team to bring a high level of skill, strategy, and coordination in order to succeed.”

“For each encounter, our goal is that you’ll need to face it many times to learn how to defeat it, continuing to develop your strategies, refining your communication and honing your tactics through practice, in order to execute to a high degree with the hope of eventually conquering it and moving on to the next encounter in the wing.”

And on top of their description of raids, raids were better received than they thought.

Back during the very first raid discussions – during the CDI, Chris Whiteside said this specifically when providing guidelines for the discussion:

QUOTE:
Our design should be based around:

- Accessibility.
– Playing to the strengths of existing GW2 core functionality.

ENDQUOTE

Now, while they succeeded at the challenging content part, I do not believe they met either of these two criteria.

Speaking to accessibility – raids are overly restrictive, and will only become moreso as a subset of the community pulls further and further away from everyone else. Reliance on artificial difficulty barriers such as enrage timers and “kill fast” mechanics pigeon hole players into meta builds and playstyles they don’t necessarily enjoy.

Speaking to playing to GW2’s strengths, raids essentially backtracked on most of them – again creating a meta dependent game mode that walls players away from story, enjoyable content and (more and more now) their friends.

Yes, there was a subset of the population that responded well to the introduction of raiding. But, at the same time, the lack of accessibility and move away from core GW2 functionalities (introduction of the trinity, complete dismissal of scaling of any kind) have made others disillusioned with GW2 to varying degrees (even costing the game players at this point).

All of this was compounded by the content drought (which could have tempered somewhat if raids had been more accessible).

They succeeded in making raids challenging – but they failed when it comes to accessibility and cohesion with GW2 core philosophies. For many of us criticizing the current model in these forums, the goal is to instill those elements in raiding in some way. The easiest seems to be the model they use in fractals – tiered difficulty – but I could see scaling based on numbers or some other system working as well.

The absolute worst thing they can do at this point is to continue with the current raiding model – driving deeper wedges between communities in the game and moving further and further from what they game offered to players when it first launched.

Blaeys.3102:

For many of us criticizing the current model in these forums, the goal is to instill those elements in raiding in some way.

I still don’t see “many of” you in these forums.

Vinceman.4572:

I still don’t see “many of” you in these forums.

I don’t see excited raid praising crowd either. Also, if you will look at reddit, where anet answering and participating in discussions way more often than here, situation will be even worse for you.

Rednik.3809:

Vinceman.4572:

I still don’t see “many of” you in these forums.

I don’t see excited raid praising crowd either. Also, if you will look at reddit, where anet answering and participating in discussions way more often than here, situation will be even worse for you.

History has shown that it’s more the complaining crowd coming into forums than the cheering one. The bigger group is happy about raids so there is no need to complain or to post how good they feel.

I remain confident about the raiding base is getting their content like before and not slowed down due to an implementation of an easy mode. Also, I’m sure the reward structure will be fine for us since there hasn’t been any worse change around raids and fractals so far.

Fun and important facts:

- The longest and most informative threads on reddit are with no response of an Anet employee.

- They contain more offopic than threads in this forum lowering the amount of constructive value to abysmal depths.

- Responding people are raiders as well – to a big amount if not even more than the half —> that’s impressing tbh

Vinceman.4572:

Blaeys.3102:

For many of us criticizing the current model in these forums, the goal is to instill those elements in raiding in some way.

I still don’t see “many of” you in these forums.

There are good reasons for that.

First, this is the raiding subforum.

Second, it is hard to criticize raids in their current form because there is a small group of people who go on the attack the second you do. I would wager that at least one fifth of the comments in this post have had to be removed by moderators for that very reason. Speaking personally, I was actually hunted down and attacked verbally in game – and, believe it or not, I received an actual death threat through reddit (someone threatened to come to my house and kill me and my family").

While that doesn’t mean much to me (I served with the U.S. Marines for 6 years – I have pretty thick skin and don’t typically back down to criticisms), I can understand why some people don’t want to subject themselves to it.

The numbers on the forums are rarely a good indicator of interest in a topic, but that is even moreso the case here (for the reasons I list above).

And even despite that, I still see the sides represented in threads like this one as pretty even – probably about 50/50.

Back to the point, however – I think the current raids got one thing right – the difficult content (I think there is even cause to make it harder). What they lack however, is better accessibility. I think tiered difficulties (or a different solution, such as g/s/b rewards based on kill time) would fix that and offer a stepping stone process for people interested in getting to that top level content (and, at the same time, a more casual experience for those just wanting to experience the story or interesting fight mechanics).

QUOTE:
Our design should be based around:
- Accessibility.
– Playing to the strengths of existing GW2 core functionality.

You know that what they mean by accessibility is, a new player dont need to grind forever to play raids, its doable on exotics ( trinkets you get by laurel by just logging in ) this is acessability, on other games you would need to grind forever low tier dungeon and when you get to raid they would be obsolete.
Acessebility have 0 relation with EASIER, raids are challenge content. Now you think that acessability is being easy, there is your mistake, stop trying to change what A-Net meant.

OnizukaBR.8537:

QUOTE:
Our design should be based around:
- Accessibility.
– Playing to the strengths of existing GW2 core functionality.

You know that what they mean by accessibility is, a new player dont need to grind forever to play raids, its doable on exotics ( trinkets you get by laurel by just logging in ) this is acessability, on other games you would need to grind forever low tier dungeon and when you get to raid they would be obsolete.
Acessebility have 0 relation with EASIER, raids are challenge content. Now you think that acessability is being easy, there is your mistake, stop trying to change what A-Net meant.

If raids are as accessible as possible, why did you think it otherwise not so long ago?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Suggestion-Entry-Level-Raid/first#post6157268

" There are a lot of people that still doesnt raid but would love just having a more relaxing and fun way to do it."

What made you change your mind since then? Even then you didn’t say this as someone who couldn’t get into raiding, yet you still thought raids aren’t accessible enough.

^ on OnizukaBRs note high level fractals are more inaccessible than raids are, and Blaeys you have used them as a comparison point saying High level fractals are more accessible which is alive since you need Almost full ascended and the Agony resist to survive them, also Anet has stated they are using the newer reworked fractals as the stepping stone into raids so they wouldn’t need a tiered raid difficulty.

Scipio.3204:

OnizukaBR.8537:

QUOTE:
Our design should be based around:
- Accessibility.
– Playing to the strengths of existing GW2 core functionality.

You know that what they mean by accessibility is, a new player dont need to grind forever to play raids, its doable on exotics ( trinkets you get by laurel by just logging in ) this is acessability, on other games you would need to grind forever low tier dungeon and when you get to raid they would be obsolete.
Acessebility have 0 relation with EASIER, raids are challenge content. Now you think that acessability is being easy, there is your mistake, stop trying to change what A-Net meant.

If raids are as accessible as possible, why did you think it otherwise not so long ago?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Suggestion-Entry-Level-Raid/first#post6157268

" There are a lot of people that still doesnt raid but would love just having a more relaxing and fun way to do it."

What made you change your mind since then? Even then you didn’t say this as someone who couldn’t get into raiding, yet you still thought raids aren’t accessible enough.

Because i raided at the beginning ( first week wing 1 was out ) then never tried again until like 2 month ago + -, so i thought raids were difficult before actually trying again to see if it was really true. And then I give it a shot just to see if it was true, and was pleased to know that i was wrong , the problem is players are not used to content that you need to actually play as a group.

And my complain was abot enrage because like i said, when i tried at the week it came out, i hitted the enrage many times. So i thought it was too short as i could not see how much damage the other 9 players were doing.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

^ on OnizukaBRs note high level fractals are more inaccessible than raids are, and Blaeys you have used them as a comparison point saying High level fractals are more accessible which is alive since you need Almost full ascended and the Agony resist to survive them, also Anet has stated they are using the newer reworked fractals as the stepping stone into raids so they wouldn’t need a tiered raid difficulty.

Fractals are an example of the right way to add content – the same basic (with some changes) experience with tiered difficulty.

As far as accessibility, yes there is the armor issue (but ascended armor is not hard to get) – but no fractal uses enrage timers or “kill fast” mechanics, meaning they are essentially open to a much wider range of builds and playstyles. This is what is needed in a raiding environment.

Yes, they can be difficult, but when that difficulty is defined by its reliance on meta builds, then it isn’t real difficulty – just an illusion based on how closely you play to that meta (which contributes to the accessibility issue) and b. it breaks with the base design we are used to from the rest of the PVE game – the two elements we were told would be part of the raiding experience during the CDI.

Blaeys.3102:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

^ on OnizukaBRs note high level fractals are more inaccessible than raids are, and Blaeys you have used them as a comparison point saying High level fractals are more accessible which is alive since you need Almost full ascended and the Agony resist to survive them, also Anet has stated they are using the newer reworked fractals as the stepping stone into raids so they wouldn’t need a tiered raid difficulty.

Fractals are an example of the right way to add content – the same basic (with some changes) experience with tiered difficulty.

As far as accessibility, yes there is the armor issue (but ascended armor is not hard to get) – but no fractal uses enrage timers or “kill fast” mechanics, meaning they are essentially open to a much wider range of builds and playstyles. This is what is needed in a raiding environment.

Yes, they can be difficult, but when that difficulty is defined by its reliance on meta builds, then it isn’t real difficulty – just an illusion based on how closely you play to that meta (which contributes to the accessibility issue) and b. it breaks with the base design we are used to from the rest of the PVE game – the two elements we were told would be part of the raiding experience during the CDI.

Accessibility is the ability to access the content, there is no gate to access the content, as shown multiple times, in a variety of manners, accessibility does not equate to guaranteeing completion of said content, it has been proven you can beat the content with non meta builds and compositions, with less than optimal gear, and so on. Therefore it still met the accessible goal that Anet set out, they met 1 out of two goals, and that second Goal was thrown out the window long before raids were even put into game.

Nothing is stopping players from experiencing he content of raids, besides lack of willingness to be a team player, when raids first released I raided with groups as a thief in mostly exotics, which was very suboptimal at the time, I also got my first VG kill in said timeframe again was not meta, afterwards the group I was with asked me what else I could play to assist more and I raided with them as a Chrono even though I am not a fan of the playstyle but I wanted to continue to experience the content.

If anything overall accessibility has increased since the raids were released with the growing population of raiders that can successfully clear raids and the abundance of training raids in LFG and training Guilds prevalent now that the content is on farm for the raiding community.

There is only a perceived non accessibility to raids, because players don’t want to take the time to learn the mechanics and wipe over and over till they achieve a kill, they would rather have the kill with next to no effort. If someone is unwilling to set aside time to learn the raids, unwilling to adapt there build or class to complement the raid team for an optimal outcome, then that is no fault of raid design or the community but on the individual them self.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Blaeys.3102:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

^ on OnizukaBRs note high level fractals are more inaccessible than raids are, and Blaeys you have used them as a comparison point saying High level fractals are more accessible which is alive since you need Almost full ascended and the Agony resist to survive them, also Anet has stated they are using the newer reworked fractals as the stepping stone into raids so they wouldn’t need a tiered raid difficulty.

Fractals are an example of the right way to add content – the same basic (with some changes) experience with tiered difficulty.

As far as accessibility, yes there is the armor issue (but ascended armor is not hard to get) – but no fractal uses enrage timers or “kill fast” mechanics, meaning they are essentially open to a much wider range of builds and playstyles. This is what is needed in a raiding environment.

Yes, they can be difficult, but when that difficulty is defined by its reliance on meta builds, then it isn’t real difficulty – just an illusion based on how closely you play to that meta (which contributes to the accessibility issue) and b. it breaks with the base design we are used to from the rest of the PVE game – the two elements we were told would be part of the raiding experience during the CDI.

Accessibility is the ability to access the content, there is no gate to access the content, as shown multiple times, in a variety of manners, accessibility does not equate to guaranteeing completion of said content, it has been proven you can beat the content with non meta builds and compositions, with less than optimal gear, and so on. Therefore it still met the accessible goal that Anet set out, they met 1 out of two goals, and that second Goal was thrown out the window long before raids were even put into game.

Nothing is stopping players from experiencing he content of raids, besides lack of willingness to be a team player, when raids first released I raided with groups as a thief in mostly exotics, which was very suboptimal at the time, I also got my first VG kill in said timeframe again was not meta, afterwards the group I was with asked me what else I could play to assist more and I raided with them as a Chrono even though I am not a fan of the playstyle but I wanted to continue to experience the content.

If anything overall accessibility has increased since the raids were released with the growing population of raiders that can successfully clear raids and the abundance of training raids in LFG and training Guilds prevalent now that the content is on farm for the raiding community.

There is only a perceived non accessibility to raids, because players don’t want to take the time to learn the mechanics and wipe over and over till they achieve a kill, they would rather have the kill with next to no effort. If someone is unwilling to set aside time to learn the raids, unwilling to adapt there build or class to complement the raid team for an optimal outcome, then that is no fault of raid design or the community but on the individual them self.

I raid every week. I understand exactly what is involved in the current system.

There is definitely room for improvement when it comes to accessibility and implementing a robust raid experience that encourages new people to join in (even those new to raiding) – even if the build and playstyle they’ve used successfully in every other part of the game for 3+ years doesn’t match the “kill fast” meta.

This isn’t about taking away any of what is available now. It is about expanding on that system to get back to the core systems and accessibility that cause so many of us to buy GW2 in the first place.

Blaeys.3102:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Blaeys.3102:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

^ on OnizukaBRs note high level fractals are more inaccessible than raids are, and Blaeys you have used them as a comparison point saying High level fractals are more accessible which is alive since you need Almost full ascended and the Agony resist to survive them, also Anet has stated they are using the newer reworked fractals as the stepping stone into raids so they wouldn’t need a tiered raid difficulty.

Fractals are an example of the right way to add content – the same basic (with some changes) experience with tiered difficulty.

As far as accessibility, yes there is the armor issue (but ascended armor is not hard to get) – but no fractal uses enrage timers or “kill fast” mechanics, meaning they are essentially open to a much wider range of builds and playstyles. This is what is needed in a raiding environment.

Yes, they can be difficult, but when that difficulty is defined by its reliance on meta builds, then it isn’t real difficulty – just an illusion based on how closely you play to that meta (which contributes to the accessibility issue) and b. it breaks with the base design we are used to from the rest of the PVE game – the two elements we were told would be part of the raiding experience during the CDI.

Accessibility is the ability to access the content, there is no gate to access the content, as shown multiple times, in a variety of manners, accessibility does not equate to guaranteeing completion of said content, it has been proven you can beat the content with non meta builds and compositions, with less than optimal gear, and so on. Therefore it still met the accessible goal that Anet set out, they met 1 out of two goals, and that second Goal was thrown out the window long before raids were even put into game.

Nothing is stopping players from experiencing he content of raids, besides lack of willingness to be a team player, when raids first released I raided with groups as a thief in mostly exotics, which was very suboptimal at the time, I also got my first VG kill in said timeframe again was not meta, afterwards the group I was with asked me what else I could play to assist more and I raided with them as a Chrono even though I am not a fan of the playstyle but I wanted to continue to experience the content.

If anything overall accessibility has increased since the raids were released with the growing population of raiders that can successfully clear raids and the abundance of training raids in LFG and training Guilds prevalent now that the content is on farm for the raiding community.

There is only a perceived non accessibility to raids, because players don’t want to take the time to learn the mechanics and wipe over and over till they achieve a kill, they would rather have the kill with next to no effort. If someone is unwilling to set aside time to learn the raids, unwilling to adapt there build or class to complement the raid team for an optimal outcome, then that is no fault of raid design or the community but on the individual them self.

I raid every week. I understand exactly what is involved in the current system.

There is definitely room for improvement when it comes to accessibility and implementing a robust raid experience that encourages new people to join in (even those new to raiding) – even if the build and playstyle they’ve used successfully in every other part of the game for 3+ years doesn’t match the “kill fast” meta.

This isn’t about taking away any of what is available now. It is about expanding on that system to get back to the core systems and accessibility that cause so many of us to buy GW2 in the first place.

The content is already accessible to everyone with an 80 and exotics, the only thing needed is a willingness to adapt, and patience and set aside time, you don’t have to have the meta comps to kill the bosses, you don’t have to have best in slot gear, there are training raids to help new players to be familiar with the content, they are stepping up high level fractals difficulty and mechanics to be a stepping stone into raid difficulty, if you take away the difficulty which is what adding easy modes to it does then you are making raids into something they were never meant to be which is challenging group content.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Blaeys.3102:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Blaeys.3102:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

^ on OnizukaBRs note high level fractals are more inaccessible than raids are, and Blaeys you have used them as a comparison point saying High level fractals are more accessible which is alive since you need Almost full ascended and the Agony resist to survive them, also Anet has stated they are using the newer reworked fractals as the stepping stone into raids so they wouldn’t need a tiered raid difficulty.

Fractals are an example of the right way to add content – the same basic (with some changes) experience with tiered difficulty.

As far as accessibility, yes there is the armor issue (but ascended armor is not hard to get) – but no fractal uses enrage timers or “kill fast” mechanics, meaning they are essentially open to a much wider range of builds and playstyles. This is what is needed in a raiding environment.

Yes, they can be difficult, but when that difficulty is defined by its reliance on meta builds, then it isn’t real difficulty – just an illusion based on how closely you play to that meta (which contributes to the accessibility issue) and b. it breaks with the base design we are used to from the rest of the PVE game – the two elements we were told would be part of the raiding experience during the CDI.

Accessibility is the ability to access the content, there is no gate to access the content, as shown multiple times, in a variety of manners, accessibility does not equate to guaranteeing completion of said content, it has been proven you can beat the content with non meta builds and compositions, with less than optimal gear, and so on. Therefore it still met the accessible goal that Anet set out, they met 1 out of two goals, and that second Goal was thrown out the window long before raids were even put into game.

Nothing is stopping players from experiencing he content of raids, besides lack of willingness to be a team player, when raids first released I raided with groups as a thief in mostly exotics, which was very suboptimal at the time, I also got my first VG kill in said timeframe again was not meta, afterwards the group I was with asked me what else I could play to assist more and I raided with them as a Chrono even though I am not a fan of the playstyle but I wanted to continue to experience the content.

If anything overall accessibility has increased since the raids were released with the growing population of raiders that can successfully clear raids and the abundance of training raids in LFG and training Guilds prevalent now that the content is on farm for the raiding community.

There is only a perceived non accessibility to raids, because players don’t want to take the time to learn the mechanics and wipe over and over till they achieve a kill, they would rather have the kill with next to no effort. If someone is unwilling to set aside time to learn the raids, unwilling to adapt there build or class to complement the raid team for an optimal outcome, then that is no fault of raid design or the community but on the individual them self.

I raid every week. I understand exactly what is involved in the current system.

There is definitely room for improvement when it comes to accessibility and implementing a robust raid experience that encourages new people to join in (even those new to raiding) – even if the build and playstyle they’ve used successfully in every other part of the game for 3+ years doesn’t match the “kill fast” meta.

This isn’t about taking away any of what is available now. It is about expanding on that system to get back to the core systems and accessibility that cause so many of us to buy GW2 in the first place.

The content is already accessible to everyone with an 80 and exotics, the only thing needed is a willingness to adapt, and patience and set aside time, you don’t have to have the meta comps to kill the bosses, you don’t have to have best in slot gear, there are training raids to help new players to be familiar with the content, they are stepping up high level fractals difficulty and mechanics to be a stepping stone into raid difficulty, if you take away the difficulty which is what adding easy modes to it does then you are making raids into something they were never meant to be which is challenging group content.

Were not asking anyone to remove the challenge that exists now – or even change its design.

What were talking about is an interim experience that allows people interested in story/interesting fights/training to have a realistic chance of experiencing all of the raid content.

That doesn’t take away from the challenge of raiding in any way. It doesn’t remove the prestige of doing the hardest content in the game. All it does is give more people a way to develop real interest in the game mode – justifying continued development and giving raiders a deeper pool of potential allies when making groups in the future.

Even if their original intent was for raiding to be solely about challenging content, I think it’s time for them to open their eyes and realize more is needed to make the game mode fit into the GW2 experience – in ways that can only benefit the game and the raiding community.

Blaeys.3102:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Blaeys.3102:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Blaeys.3102:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

^ on OnizukaBRs note high level fractals are more inaccessible than raids are, and Blaeys you have used them as a comparison point saying High level fractals are more accessible which is alive since you need Almost full ascended and the Agony resist to survive them, also Anet has stated they are using the newer reworked fractals as the stepping stone into raids so they wouldn’t need a tiered raid difficulty.

Fractals are an example of the right way to add content – the same basic (with some changes) experience with tiered difficulty.

As far as accessibility, yes there is the armor issue (but ascended armor is not hard to get) – but no fractal uses enrage timers or “kill fast” mechanics, meaning they are essentially open to a much wider range of builds and playstyles. This is what is needed in a raiding environment.

Yes, they can be difficult, but when that difficulty is defined by its reliance on meta builds, then it isn’t real difficulty – just an illusion based on how closely you play to that meta (which contributes to the accessibility issue) and b. it breaks with the base design we are used to from the rest of the PVE game – the two elements we were told would be part of the raiding experience during the CDI.

Accessibility is the ability to access the content, there is no gate to access the content, as shown multiple times, in a variety of manners, accessibility does not equate to guaranteeing completion of said content, it has been proven you can beat the content with non meta builds and compositions, with less than optimal gear, and so on. Therefore it still met the accessible goal that Anet set out, they met 1 out of two goals, and that second Goal was thrown out the window long before raids were even put into game.

Nothing is stopping players from experiencing he content of raids, besides lack of willingness to be a team player, when raids first released I raided with groups as a thief in mostly exotics, which was very suboptimal at the time, I also got my first VG kill in said timeframe again was not meta, afterwards the group I was with asked me what else I could play to assist more and I raided with them as a Chrono even though I am not a fan of the playstyle but I wanted to continue to experience the content.

If anything overall accessibility has increased since the raids were released with the growing population of raiders that can successfully clear raids and the abundance of training raids in LFG and training Guilds prevalent now that the content is on farm for the raiding community.

There is only a perceived non accessibility to raids, because players don’t want to take the time to learn the mechanics and wipe over and over till they achieve a kill, they would rather have the kill with next to no effort. If someone is unwilling to set aside time to learn the raids, unwilling to adapt there build or class to complement the raid team for an optimal outcome, then that is no fault of raid design or the community but on the individual them self.

I raid every week. I understand exactly what is involved in the current system.

There is definitely room for improvement when it comes to accessibility and implementing a robust raid experience that encourages new people to join in (even those new to raiding) – even if the build and playstyle they’ve used successfully in every other part of the game for 3+ years doesn’t match the “kill fast” meta.

This isn’t about taking away any of what is available now. It is about expanding on that system to get back to the core systems and accessibility that cause so many of us to buy GW2 in the first place.

The content is already accessible to everyone with an 80 and exotics, the only thing needed is a willingness to adapt, and patience and set aside time, you don’t have to have the meta comps to kill the bosses, you don’t have to have best in slot gear, there are training raids to help new players to be familiar with the content, they are stepping up high level fractals difficulty and mechanics to be a stepping stone into raid difficulty, if you take away the difficulty which is what adding easy modes to it does then you are making raids into something they were never meant to be which is challenging group content.

Were not asking anyone to remove the challenge that exists now – or even change its design.

What were talking about is an interim experience that allows people interested in story/interesting fights/training to have a realistic chance of experiencing all of the raid content.

That doesn’t take away from the challenge of raiding in any way. It doesn’t remove the prestige of doing the hardest content in the game. All it does is give more people a way to develop real interest in the game mode – justifying continued development and giving raiders a deeper pool of potential allies when making groups in the future.

Even if their original intent was for raiding to be solely about challenging content, I think it’s time for them to open their eyes and realize more is needed to make the game mode fit into the GW2 experience – in ways that can only benefit the game and the raiding community.

Adding an easier version by essence removes challenge from raids, raids should be one difficulty to signify the actual challenge the represent, and if having those easier raids provide access to say the prestige items aka legendary armor or raid specific items you remove the prestige of the harder raid, and if the easier modes don’t have access to the Legendary armor people will only play them once or twice which would mean wasted development resources.

Again you are trying to force a gamemode meet the demands of a small audience they were never intended for, even though the raids have been proven accessible to all it is the individuals that don’t want to meet the requirements that is stopping them from experiencing the raids.

Blaeys.3102:

Were not asking anyone to remove the challenge that exists now – or even change its design.

Wrong. The mere existence of easy-mode raiding would be a detriment and scar to what raiding is supposed to be: The Ultimate PvE Challenge. Adding an easy mode would break it regardless of the intent of easy-mode whether you want to admit it or not.

Blaeys.3102:

What were talking about is an interim experience that allows people interested in story/interesting fights/training to have a realistic chance of experiencing all of the raid content.

We have already discussed what little story is involved, that’s a fruitless venture to branch into.

Interesting fights is a fun one, because you are under the impression that the fights will still be even remotely the same as their normal versions. Do you think an Easy-Mode VG will be interesting if the easy-mode has utterly nerfed mechanics that any group can ignore outright? The moment you want anything interesting happen in a instanced environment with your fellow allies, you will have people complain bar none. There is never a bar that’s too low, what you define as interesting can very well be still too hard for the general populace.

By that very logic, in order to sate the entire populace you have to create encounters that can be done by the lowest common denominator. So no, Easy-mode encounters can not be interesting as you suggest, that’s hypocritical.

Finally, what purpose would these easy-mode raids be to train groups? Doesn’t the implementation of Magnetite Shards on failed attempts give raid groups right now incentive to train on encounters?

Blaeys.3102:

That doesn’t take away from the challenge of raiding in any way. It doesn’t remove the prestige of doing the hardest content in the game. All it does is give more people a way to develop real interest in the game mode – justifying continued development and giving raiders a deeper pool of potential allies when making groups in the future.

There doesn’t need to be justification for the content to reach a wider audience. It’s very intention is to be the most difficult content on a PvE spectrum, much like how SPvP isn’t for everyone, WvW isn’t for everyone, etc.

Raiding right now is very healthy, it is getting its intended audience it certainly does not need anyone who doesn’t want the authentic raiding experience.

Blaeys.3102:

Even if their original intent was for raiding to be solely about challenging content, I think it’s time for them to open their eyes and realize more is needed to make the game mode fit into the GW2 experience – in ways that can only benefit the game and the raiding community.

I believe it is about time you open your eyes and realize that what you ask for is in complete opposition for what raiding is supposed to be. You keep coming back to this argument that ‘But I raid so I know this is a good idea’ as if that gave you some insight into what might be good for the game as a whole.

It is not, yet I believe it is also very difficult to explain to you in a way that helps you to understand what it is you are suggesting, so allow me to paint you a picture of what you are telling us on the other side through some (obviously hypothetical) examples:

- You are asking SPvP devs to create a version of the Heart of the Mists where you can queue up for everything like before, except you will always face AI bots with both strategically and skill deficits, so that non-SPvPers can ‘enjoy the SPvP experience’.

- You are asking WvW devs to mimic all the borderlands and EBG, with mass AI zergs and some AI roamers to emulate a real WvW environment for those not interested in fighting other players for real, so some folks can ‘enjoy WvW’.

Easy-mode raiding would be a waste of time and resources, period. Just because there would be no end to the balance of it. It is unreasonable to ask Arenanet to create the Easy-mode, and the Very Easy-mode, and then the Easiest of modes because there will always be someone worse than you.

Do you understand Blaeys or do you want to continue your belief that somehow what you envision an easy-mode raid to be would be accessible to everyone? Because it wouldn’t. It never could, people still can’t beat the HoT Story mode, hell I know people who actively refuse to go into HoT maps yet want in on everything.

Sykper.6583:

Do you understand Blaeys or do you want to continue your belief that somehow what you envision an easy-mode raid to be would be accessible to everyone? Because it wouldn’t. It never could, people still can’t beat the HoT Story mode, hell I know people who actively refuse to go into HoT maps yet want in on everything.

As with all things, the devil is in the details. Tiered difficulty would have to be accompanied by some incentive (lesser than what exists now) to encourage continued population – but that is true of every piece of content in the game.

As far as who can and can’t beat the content, I understand where you are coming from but still feel this is needed. The current barrier to entry is based – for the most part – around the meta (again because of “kill fast” mechanics overshadowing everything else). People who played their characters a certain way for 3+ years were basically told change or gtfo. That is an issue to me. There needs to be a way to experience the content (which can still be hard and uncompletable by a portion of the playerbase) that isn’t as reliant on the meta – even if it offers a considerably lesser reward.

Reality check – the difficulty of the current raids has nothing to do with how well you play your character. It is directly related to how well you copy and paste builds and playstyles from 3rd party websites. That hurts the game, imo, and needs to be fixed. And, the way you fix it is by providing a lesser level of the raid that offers a lesser reward but isn’t as reliant on the broken meta game.

I also know this is falling on a lot of deaf ears, especially here in the raiding subforum, but the conversation needs to continue – for those that are willing to have it.

Blaeys.3102:

Reality check – the difficulty of the current raids has nothing to do with how well you play your character. It is directly related to how well you copy and paste builds and playstyles from 3rd party websites. That hurts the game, imo, and needs to be fixed. And, the way you fix it is by providing a lesser level of the raid that offers a lesser reward but isn’t as reliant on the broken meta game.

I also know this is falling on a lot of deaf ears, especially here in the raiding subforum, but the conversation needs to continue – for those that are willing to have it.

If you sincerely believe this….and i mean sincerely believe this to be the case then there is no way any mode will help change this.

Raids are a team based effort meaning that yes a “meta” will develop. It happens in all modes, it’s simply the most efficient way of handling the encounter and has jack all to do with kill speed. The fact that you still believe it’s kill speed related tells me you have no idea what your talking about here.

The fact that you harp on build diversity without actively realizing that raids have the most build diversity of any single mode requiring teamwork is astounding and baffling to say the least.

Nothing will change that, its a personal issue stopping you and others who seemingly cannot comprehend what a meta is, nor how to work around it or develop your own. Instead you use it as a scapegoat for changing things that do not need to be changed.

If this sounds familiar it probably is, its the same complaints of the anti-meta crowd when dungeons existed and they used the same non-sense argument of dungeons being inaccessible despite having the same tools and access as everyone else. In otherwords not an Anet issue to solve, but a you/player specific issue. Form a non-meta group and be the happiest player you can be.

The kill fast mechanics have been apart of all instanced content since a couple months after release it has been the preferred method, it was those people that asked for the raid content to begin with, so it is designed with them in mind. It wasn’t recently that this kill fast meta has been prevalent in the game it has been in game since Dungeons were the only instanced content. And you do not need to have Meta to beat the raids that has been proven on multiple occasions, it is just the preferred method, nothing is stopping these players that don’t want to perform meta to start their own raid groups.

Blaeys.3102:

Sykper.6583:

Do you understand Blaeys or do you want to continue your belief that somehow what you envision an easy-mode raid to be would be accessible to everyone? Because it wouldn’t. It never could, people still can’t beat the HoT Story mode, hell I know people who actively refuse to go into HoT maps yet want in on everything.

Reality check – the difficulty of the current raids has nothing to do with how well you play your character. It is directly related to how well you copy and paste builds and playstyles from 3rd party websites. That hurts the game, imo, and needs to be fixed. And, the way you fix it is by providing a lesser level of the raid that offers a lesser reward but isn’t as reliant on the broken meta game.

I also know this is falling on a lot of deaf ears, especially here in the raiding subforum, but the conversation needs to continue – for those that are willing to have it.

Reality check, people beat it with only 4 people instead of 10, or with only greens. So i’m sure you with 10 people with your “home made” builds can do the same damage of only that 4 people, but you still cant beat it. Its not the meta, its not mandatory, 3 years of playing the game doesnt mean you are good at it.
Sykper said everything perfect, if you cant see it , its futile to try to explain.

Blaeys.3102:

Reality check – the difficulty of the current raids has nothing to do with how well you play your character. It is directly related to how well you copy and paste builds and playstyles from 3rd party websites. That hurts the game, imo, and needs to be fixed. And, the way you fix it is by providing a lesser level of the raid that offers a lesser reward but isn’t as reliant on the broken meta game.

this is one of those posts which is so bizarre that it really is just absolutely confusing and there’s no really good way to respond to it
“raids do not currently require player skill, we should fix this problem by creating a new mode which does not require player skill”
…huh?

TexZero.7910:

If this sounds familiar it probably is, its the same complaints of the anti-meta crowd when dungeons existed and they used the same non-sense argument of dungeons being inaccessible despite having the same tools and access as everyone else. In otherwords not an Anet issue to solve, but a you/player specific issue. Form a non-meta group and be the happiest player you can be.

The difference is that kill fast mechanics mean that adherence to the meta has a greater impact on the chance of success than it did in dungeons – but not in a positive way that encourages creative thinking or real strategy (or creative raid design). Instead, the “strategy” becomes more of a dance where every member memorizes the steps based around preset builds and playstyles.

In raids – and fractals – where these kill fast mechanics are not the same hard barriers to success, people can base their strategy around the builds they enjoy playing – even if those builds do not conform to the kill fast meta. At the same time, the kill fast crowd can have fun setting speed records or whatever. There is more diversity of play and players can have the feeling that the “unique” builds they have grown to love over the past 3.5 years aren’t suddenly useless thanks to bad raid design (and I stand by that).

At the same time, I am fine with the higher end rewards being reserved for those who conform to that meta. All I am advocating for is more flexibility for those who choose to play differently – in a way that does not negatively impact or impede anyone’s play style in any real way (and that would even have a lesser reward).

Nah. Not true. Look up those slowest kills videos. You’re wrong.

Ramoth.9064:

Nah. Not true. Look up those slowest kills videos. You’re wrong.

The slowest kill videos suffer from the same issue, just at the other extreme – which is the entire problem. You either have to play the kill fast meta or build the entire team around staying alive through absolutely everything (again, directly because of the enrage timer effects – only this time on the other side of the timer). Both of these issues can be tied directly back to reliance on enrage timers to create the illusion of difficulty (and killing build and playstyle diversity in the process).

It becomes a game of extremes where there is little room for anything in between.

Blaeys.3102:

Ramoth.9064:

Nah. Not true. Look up those slowest kills videos. You’re wrong.

The slowest kill videos suffer from the same issue, just at the other extreme – which is the entire problem. You either have to play the kill fast meta or build the entire team around staying alive through absolutely everything (again, directly because of the enrage timer effects – only this time on the other side of the timer). Both of these issues can be tied directly back to reliance on enrage timers to create the illusion of difficulty (and killing build and playstyle diversity in the process).

It becomes a game of extremes where there is little room for anything in between.

If people can beat bosses in all greens, then with only 4-5 players then you do not need the Meta builds since those two comps are at a huge Stat/ dps loss compared to a full 10 man Meta comp, therefore you can clear it with no meta builds, it comes down to learning the raids and adapting. You do not need to have Meta, Meta just allows more consistency and has been proven to be able to clear the bosses.

One of ANet’s goals with Hot (both raids and persistent zones) was to requires players to make fuller use of many of the game’s character mechanics to succeed. While I’m sure raids could go further towards doing that, they come a lot closer than anything else in PvE. It’s impossible to design PvE content that requires players to make full use of many of the game’s character mechanics while also allowing them to use whatever the heck they want. If the goal of easier raids is to enable players to play whatever they want, that runs counter to the design intent of raids.

There’s also the issue of content meta compositions being player derived. In the event an easier mode were constructed, PuG groups would develop a meta to do it most efficiently and enforce that, because faster completion, easier completion or whatever the reason of the month is. That’s what players do. Hoping to PuG easier raids with whatever you want is a fool’s errand.

I don’t know what Anet will do with raids. I do know that when they were faced with a lot more complaints about HoT persistent world than I see about raids, their response was to redesign how rewards were assigned, reduce the OHK from certain champs some and remove a few of the random mobs. That was it.

It’s my hope that ANet will leave raids as is and focus on keep the focus for content for those who currently don’t raid on stuff I care about, like persistent world. Is that selfish of me? I suppose it is. However, there isn’t anyone here who isn’t looking out for their own interests. At least I’m willing to let others have what they want without demanding it be adapted to my preferences.

Blaeys. Before you say that only meta or only really tank builds works. Just take your builds to raid, and post a video of it, to prove that your build cant kill raid bosses because of enrage. Not because you are failling at mechanics.

OnizukaBR.8537:

Scipio.3204:

OnizukaBR.8537:

QUOTE:
Our design should be based around:
- Accessibility.
– Playing to the strengths of existing GW2 core functionality.

You know that what they mean by accessibility is, a new player dont need to grind forever to play raids, its doable on exotics ( trinkets you get by laurel by just logging in ) this is acessability, on other games you would need to grind forever low tier dungeon and when you get to raid they would be obsolete.
Acessebility have 0 relation with EASIER, raids are challenge content. Now you think that acessability is being easy, there is your mistake, stop trying to change what A-Net meant.

If raids are as accessible as possible, why did you think it otherwise not so long ago?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Suggestion-Entry-Level-Raid/first#post6157268

" There are a lot of people that still doesnt raid but would love just having a more relaxing and fun way to do it."

What made you change your mind since then? Even then you didn’t say this as someone who couldn’t get into raiding, yet you still thought raids aren’t accessible enough.

Because i raided at the beginning ( first week wing 1 was out ) then never tried again until like 2 month ago + -, so i thought raids were difficult before actually trying again to see if it was really true. And then I give it a shot just to see if it was true, and was pleased to know that i was wrong , the problem is players are not used to content that you need to actually play as a group.

And my complain was abot enrage because like i said, when i tried at the week it came out, i hitted the enrage many times. So i thought it was too short as i could not see how much damage the other 9 players were doing.

But that is the thing. We could argue wether we find raids accessible or not day and night, what in the end matters is wether the general playerbase finds it accessible, which is obviously not this forum, or even reddit.

I’ve hosted several training groups open to 7-8 pugs, because one or two of my friends needed introducing to one of the boss’s mechanic. This training usually took several hours,but after I’ve ended them, several pug wanted to stay in touch with me in case I still organize something like this in the future. Sure, I was okey with it, but me organizing things like this wasn’t that often, however, I could track the progress of these people through my friendlist. I saw them doing raids in the upcoming weeks quite often, then after we fast forward to this day, 80% of them stopped playing not only raids, but GW2 altogether. Even you stopped raiding for about 5 month , which I guess was becasue you found raids “really stressfull and time consuming”.

Imagine how many people didn’t return after that experience. They didn’t return because they didn’t want to make the first step, they did and a lot more, but even then raiding didn’t become fun.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

if you take away the difficulty which is what adding easy modes to it does then you are making raids into something they were never meant to be which is challenging group content.

Call me dense, but I still don’t understand how does the existence of T1 fractals take away the difficulty of T4 ones.

EDIT:

OnizukaBR.8537:

Blaeys. Before you say that only meta or only really tank builds works. Just take your builds to raid, and post a video of it, to prove that your build cant kill raid bosses because of enrage. Not because you are failling at mechanics.

Is gorse video okey?

Also since the topic seems to be the same, I’m still waiting on a chrono build that isn’t meta I can complete raids with.

Scipio.3204:

OnizukaBR.8537:

Scipio.3204:

OnizukaBR.8537:

QUOTE:
Our design should be based around:
- Accessibility.
– Playing to the strengths of existing GW2 core functionality.

You know that what they mean by accessibility is, a new player dont need to grind forever to play raids, its doable on exotics ( trinkets you get by laurel by just logging in ) this is acessability, on other games you would need to grind forever low tier dungeon and when you get to raid they would be obsolete.
Acessebility have 0 relation with EASIER, raids are challenge content. Now you think that acessability is being easy, there is your mistake, stop trying to change what A-Net meant.

If raids are as accessible as possible, why did you think it otherwise not so long ago?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Suggestion-Entry-Level-Raid/first#post6157268

" There are a lot of people that still doesnt raid but would love just having a more relaxing and fun way to do it."

What made you change your mind since then? Even then you didn’t say this as someone who couldn’t get into raiding, yet you still thought raids aren’t accessible enough.

Because i raided at the beginning ( first week wing 1 was out ) then never tried again until like 2 month ago + -, so i thought raids were difficult before actually trying again to see if it was really true. And then I give it a shot just to see if it was true, and was pleased to know that i was wrong , the problem is players are not used to content that you need to actually play as a group.

And my complain was abot enrage because like i said, when i tried at the week it came out, i hitted the enrage many times. So i thought it was too short as i could not see how much damage the other 9 players were doing.

But that is the thing. We could argue wether we find raids accessible or not day and night, what in the end matters is wether the general playerbase finds it accessible, which is obviously not this forum, or even reddit.

I’ve hosted several training groups open to 7-8 pugs, because one or two of my friends needed introducing to one of the boss’s mechanic. This training usually took several hours,but after I’ve ended them, several pug wanted to stay in touch with me in case I still organize something like this in the future. Sure, I was okey with it, but me organizing things like this wasn’t that often, however, I could track the progress of these people through my friendlist. I saw them doing raids in the upcoming weeks quite often, then after we fast forward to this day, 80% of them stopped playing not only raids, but GW2 altogether. Even you stopped raiding for about 5 month , which I guess was becasue you found raids “really stressfull and time consuming”.

Imagine how many people didn’t return after that experience. They didn’t return because they didn’t want to make the first step, they did and a lot more, but even then raiding didn’t become fun.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

if you take away the difficulty which is what adding easy modes to it does then you are making raids into something they were never meant to be which is challenging group content.

Call me dense, but I still don’t understand how does the existence of T1 fractals take away the difficulty of T4 ones.

EDIT:

OnizukaBR.8537:

Blaeys. Before you say that only meta or only really tank builds works. Just take your builds to raid, and post a video of it, to prove that your build cant kill raid bosses because of enrage. Not because you are failling at mechanics.

Is gorse video okey?

Also since the topic seems to be the same, I’m still waiting on a chrono build that isn’t meta I can complete raids with.

You wanna take Gors because him and sabetha are the only ones that you can’t drag forever ( Gors no updraft, Sab platform destroyed).
But Sloth, VG, Trio, Mathias, KC, Scort, Xera. You can drag forever if you want so not a DPS problem.
Edit: and Even those two you can take non meta builds, just have to be dps builds. You can take sword guardian ( its not meta ), Power Reaper, Power Dagger thief… and you would still complete it because there a lot of meta builds that does enough damage. The design allow a lot of builds, but these two dont allow tank builds, and thats perfectly fine.

Scipio.3204:

OnizukaBR.8537:

Scipio.3204:

OnizukaBR.8537:

QUOTE:
Our design should be based around:
- Accessibility.
– Playing to the strengths of existing GW2 core functionality.

You know that what they mean by accessibility is, a new player dont need to grind forever to play raids, its doable on exotics ( trinkets you get by laurel by just logging in ) this is acessability, on other games you would need to grind forever low tier dungeon and when you get to raid they would be obsolete.
Acessebility have 0 relation with EASIER, raids are challenge content. Now you think that acessability is being easy, there is your mistake, stop trying to change what A-Net meant.

If raids are as accessible as possible, why did you think it otherwise not so long ago?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Suggestion-Entry-Level-Raid/first#post6157268

" There are a lot of people that still doesnt raid but would love just having a more relaxing and fun way to do it."

What made you change your mind since then? Even then you didn’t say this as someone who couldn’t get into raiding, yet you still thought raids aren’t accessible enough.

Because i raided at the beginning ( first week wing 1 was out ) then never tried again until like 2 month ago + -, so i thought raids were difficult before actually trying again to see if it was really true. And then I give it a shot just to see if it was true, and was pleased to know that i was wrong , the problem is players are not used to content that you need to actually play as a group.

And my complain was abot enrage because like i said, when i tried at the week it came out, i hitted the enrage many times. So i thought it was too short as i could not see how much damage the other 9 players were doing.

But that is the thing. We could argue wether we find raids accessible or not day and night, what in the end matters is wether the general playerbase finds it accessible, which is obviously not this forum, or even reddit.

I’ve hosted several training groups open to 7-8 pugs, because one or two of my friends needed introducing to one of the boss’s mechanic. This training usually took several hours,but after I’ve ended them, several pug wanted to stay in touch with me in case I still organize something like this in the future. Sure, I was okey with it, but me organizing things like this wasn’t that often, however, I could track the progress of these people through my friendlist. I saw them doing raids in the upcoming weeks quite often, then after we fast forward to this day, 80% of them stopped playing not only raids, but GW2 altogether. Even you stopped raiding for about 5 month , which I guess was becasue you found raids “really stressfull and time consuming”.

Imagine how many people didn’t return after that experience. They didn’t return because they didn’t want to make the first step, they did and a lot more, but even then raiding didn’t become fun.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

if you take away the difficulty which is what adding easy modes to it does then you are making raids into something they were never meant to be which is challenging group content.

Call me dense, but I still don’t understand how does the existence of T1 fractals take away the difficulty of T4 ones.

EDIT:

OnizukaBR.8537:

Blaeys. Before you say that only meta or only really tank builds works. Just take your builds to raid, and post a video of it, to prove that your build cant kill raid bosses because of enrage. Not because you are failling at mechanics.

Is gorse video okey?

Also since the topic seems to be the same, I’m still waiting on a chrono build that isn’t meta I can complete raids with.

T1 Fractals were designed as a tiered system from the start, there was no expectation of T1s being difficult, while on the other hand Raids were solely designed to be harder content than anything in game, which is reinforced with them making T4 fractals like swamp a stepping stone into Raid difficulty.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

T1 Fractals were designed as a tiered system from the start, there was no expectation of T1s being difficult, while on the other hand Raids were solely designed to be harder content than anything in game, which is reinforced with them making T4 fractals like swamp a stepping stone into Raid difficulty.

Then you think T1 fractals doesn’t diminish the challange of T4, but still think if you add an easy mode raid that would remove the challange of the current ones.

No, sorry , still don’t get it. I don’t see fractals being designed with a tiered system in mind as an argument, since admit it, they can make one for raids as well.

OnizukaBR.8537:

You wanna take Gors because him and sabetha are the only ones that you can’t drag forever ( Gors no updraft, Sab platform destroyed).
But Sloth, VG, Trio, Mathias, KC, Scort, Xera. You can drag forever if you want so not a DPS problem.
Edit: and Even those two you can take non meta builds, just have to be dps builds. You can take sword guardian ( its not meta ), Power Reaper, Power Dagger thief… and you would still complete it because there a lot of meta builds that does enough damage. The design allow a lot of builds, but these two dont allow tank builds, and thats perfectly fine.

And yet I haven’t seen any of those build being accepted to either guilds or pugs. Still waiting for a respone about my other points though.

Scipio.3204:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

T1 Fractals were designed as a tiered system from the start, there was no expectation of T1s being difficult, while on the other hand Raids were solely designed to be harder content than anything in game, which is reinforced with them making T4 fractals like swamp a stepping stone into Raid difficulty.

Then you think T1 fractals doesn’t diminish the challange of T4, but still think if you add an easy mode raid that would remove the challange of the current ones.

No, sorry , still don’t get it. I don’t see fractals being designed with a tiered system in mind as an argument, since admit it, they can make one for raids as well.

OnizukaBR.8537:

You wanna take Gors because him and sabetha are the only ones that you can’t drag forever ( Gors no updraft, Sab platform destroyed).
But Sloth, VG, Trio, Mathias, KC, Scort, Xera. You can drag forever if you want so not a DPS problem.
Edit: and Even those two you can take non meta builds, just have to be dps builds. You can take sword guardian ( its not meta ), Power Reaper, Power Dagger thief… and you would still complete it because there a lot of meta builds that does enough damage. The design allow a lot of builds, but these two dont allow tank builds, and thats perfectly fine.

And yet I haven’t seen any of those build being accepted to either guilds or pugs. Still waiting for a respone about my other points though.

They are not accepted because most of the time someone doesnt wanna change their playstile is because he doesnt like to adapt or he really doesnt know how to play a proper build. So why would I or anyone else increase the chance of failure ( not because of this person build, but because he might doesnt know what he is doing) just for the sake of this person play his build?
Non meta build are usually seeing on static group, because you know the people in your group and you know they will carry his weight on his non meta build. You dont know people you pug with so you want to increase the chances of clearing.

Scipio.3204:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

T1 Fractals were designed as a tiered system from the start, there was no expectation of T1s being difficult, while on the other hand Raids were solely designed to be harder content than anything in game, which is reinforced with them making T4 fractals like swamp a stepping stone into Raid difficulty.

Then you think T1 fractals doesn’t diminish the challange of T4, but still think if you add an easy mode raid that would remove the challange of the current ones.

No, sorry , still don’t get it. I don’t see fractals being designed with a tiered system in mind as an argument, since admit it, they can make one for raids as well.

OnizukaBR.8537:

You wanna take Gors because him and sabetha are the only ones that you can’t drag forever ( Gors no updraft, Sab platform destroyed).
But Sloth, VG, Trio, Mathias, KC, Scort, Xera. You can drag forever if you want so not a DPS problem.
Edit: and Even those two you can take non meta builds, just have to be dps builds. You can take sword guardian ( its not meta ), Power Reaper, Power Dagger thief… and you would still complete it because there a lot of meta builds that does enough damage. The design allow a lot of builds, but these two dont allow tank builds, and thats perfectly fine.

And yet I haven’t seen any of those build being accepted to either guilds or pugs. Still waiting for a respone about my other points though.

Fractals were never Marketed as Challenging like raids were, that’s the difference Fractals were designed with low levels being able to play in them as well hence the scaling effect. Raids were designed to be the hardest content in game and offered rewards as such, you make an easier version it takes away that challenge that is the core design and sole intent that make up raids. I don’t see how you can’t understand that, fractals were not meant to be the hardest or most challenging content otherwise they would have never aloud up leveling characters, raids were designed with 1 and only 1 difficulty in mind.

Also using T4 fractals as an example they are by default less accessible than raids and always will be just based on the pure concept of fractals.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Scipio.3204:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

T1 Fractals were designed as a tiered system from the start, there was no expectation of T1s being difficult, while on the other hand Raids were solely designed to be harder content than anything in game, which is reinforced with them making T4 fractals like swamp a stepping stone into Raid difficulty.

Then you think T1 fractals doesn’t diminish the challange of T4, but still think if you add an easy mode raid that would remove the challange of the current ones.

No, sorry , still don’t get it. I don’t see fractals being designed with a tiered system in mind as an argument, since admit it, they can make one for raids as well.

OnizukaBR.8537:

You wanna take Gors because him and sabetha are the only ones that you can’t drag forever ( Gors no updraft, Sab platform destroyed).
But Sloth, VG, Trio, Mathias, KC, Scort, Xera. You can drag forever if you want so not a DPS problem.
Edit: and Even those two you can take non meta builds, just have to be dps builds. You can take sword guardian ( its not meta ), Power Reaper, Power Dagger thief… and you would still complete it because there a lot of meta builds that does enough damage. The design allow a lot of builds, but these two dont allow tank builds, and thats perfectly fine.

And yet I haven’t seen any of those build being accepted to either guilds or pugs. Still waiting for a respone about my other points though.

Fractals were never Marketed as Challenging like raids were, that’s the difference Fractals were designed with low levels being able to play in them as well hence the scaling effect. Raids were designed to be the hardest content in game and offered rewards as such, you make an easier version it takes away that challenge that is the core design and sole intent that make up raids. I don’t see how you can’t understand that, fractals were not meant to be the hardest or most challenging content otherwise they would have never aloud up leveling characters, raids were designed with 1 and only 1 difficulty in mind.

Also using T4 fractals as an example they are by default less accessible than raids and always will be just based on the pure concept of fractals.

I know that . Also I agree T4 fractals are less accessible than raids are, this is why I think making T4 fractals “as a stepping stone into raiding” is, sorry I don’t have other word for it, idiotic. Also you seem to forgot, high fractals were the hardest thing in the game right up until the introduction of raids, and I don’t see how that was not “meant to be the hardest or most challenging content”.

And raids would still be the hardest content in game , I don’t see how can’t you understand. Just others would also get new repeatable content even if they don’t want to do the hardest challenge the game has to offer.

OnizukaBR.8537:

They are not accepted because most of the time someone doesnt wanna change their playstile is because he doesnt like to adapt or he really doesnt know how to play a proper build. So why would I or anyone else increase the chance of failure ( not because of this person build, but because he might doesnt know what he is doing) just for the sake of this person play his build?
Non meta build are usually seeing on static group, because you know the people in your group and you know they will carry his weight on his non meta build. You dont know people you pug with so you want to increase the chances of clearing.

You are talking to someone who frequently raids , I know why people are taking meta builds. But answer me this: Why did those people I trained leave the raiding scene altogether, even though they geared up their character,used meta builds, they looked for training groups, looked for guilds. Even you left for 5 months. Is this what an accessible content does?

Scipio.3204:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Scipio.3204:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

T1 Fractals were designed as a tiered system from the start, there was no expectation of T1s being difficult, while on the other hand Raids were solely designed to be harder content than anything in game, which is reinforced with them making T4 fractals like swamp a stepping stone into Raid difficulty.

Then you think T1 fractals doesn’t diminish the challange of T4, but still think if you add an easy mode raid that would remove the challange of the current ones.

No, sorry , still don’t get it. I don’t see fractals being designed with a tiered system in mind as an argument, since admit it, they can make one for raids as well.

OnizukaBR.8537:

You wanna take Gors because him and sabetha are the only ones that you can’t drag forever ( Gors no updraft, Sab platform destroyed).
But Sloth, VG, Trio, Mathias, KC, Scort, Xera. You can drag forever if you want so not a DPS problem.
Edit: and Even those two you can take non meta builds, just have to be dps builds. You can take sword guardian ( its not meta ), Power Reaper, Power Dagger thief… and you would still complete it because there a lot of meta builds that does enough damage. The design allow a lot of builds, but these two dont allow tank builds, and thats perfectly fine.

And yet I haven’t seen any of those build being accepted to either guilds or pugs. Still waiting for a respone about my other points though.

Fractals were never Marketed as Challenging like raids were, that’s the difference Fractals were designed with low levels being able to play in them as well hence the scaling effect. Raids were designed to be the hardest content in game and offered rewards as such, you make an easier version it takes away that challenge that is the core design and sole intent that make up raids. I don’t see how you can’t understand that, fractals were not meant to be the hardest or most challenging content otherwise they would have never aloud up leveling characters, raids were designed with 1 and only 1 difficulty in mind.

Also using T4 fractals as an example they are by default less accessible than raids and always will be just based on the pure concept of fractals.

I know that . Also I agree T4 fractals are less accessible than raids are, this is why I think making T4 fractals “as a stepping stone into raiding” is, sorry I don’t have other word for it, idiotic. Also you seem to forgot, high fractals were the hardest thing in the game right up until the introduction of raids, and I don’t see how that was not “meant to be the hardest or most challenging content”.

And raids would still be the hardest content in game , I don’t see how can’t you understand. Just others would also get new repeatable content even if they don’t want to do the hardest challenge the game has to offer.

OnizukaBR.8537:

They are not accepted because most of the time someone doesnt wanna change their playstile is because he doesnt like to adapt or he really doesnt know how to play a proper build. So why would I or anyone else increase the chance of failure ( not because of this person build, but because he might doesnt know what he is doing) just for the sake of this person play his build?
Non meta build are usually seeing on static group, because you know the people in your group and you know they will carry his weight on his non meta build. You dont know people you pug with so you want to increase the chances of clearing.

You are talking to someone who frequently raids , I know why people are taking meta builds. But answer me this: Why did those people I trained leave the raiding scene altogether, even though they geared up their character,used meta builds, they looked for training groups, looked for guilds. Even you left for 5 months. Is this what an accessible content does?

Yes, when you find that you dont like the content you leave it. I joined WvWvW in the begining of the game, didnt like it, never played it again. Its accessible but its not for my taste, just like raids are for some people.
I joined raids at the begining, didnt like it ( at that time was because nobody know what to do ), didnt try again for 5 months, then tried again, liked it and now i raid every week. I only log for fractal dailies after i reach MS cap as there is nothing i like more then raiding right now.
And because of raid for the first i found a reason to join groups, and even TS/Disc to talk to people.

Seriously peeps, there is nothing wrong with having difficulty settings at all… and having scaling rewards for the different settings… and getting more players involved with endgame content and increasing retention.

Raids are not like players needing to compete for a 200k prize pool where only the best of the best twitch players can win… Raids are end game content to extend the life of the game for players and for fun.

Other game companies were smart enough to be inclusive with raids, and the devs here are smart enough to figure it out and implement… Anet is not some dirt poor company struggling to raise funds. It’s not like they need to devote millions of dollars and 50 devs either to open the raid doors more… Anet is also capable and competent and creative enough to do whatever they put their focus on. Let’s not make it seem like they would have to rewrite the game engine, or lack the talent, to make difficulty settings happen…

Scipio.3204:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Scipio.3204:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

T1 Fractals were designed as a tiered system from the start, there was no expectation of T1s being difficult, while on the other hand Raids were solely designed to be harder content than anything in game, which is reinforced with them making T4 fractals like swamp a stepping stone into Raid difficulty.

Then you think T1 fractals doesn’t diminish the challange of T4, but still think if you add an easy mode raid that would remove the challange of the current ones.

No, sorry , still don’t get it. I don’t see fractals being designed with a tiered system in mind as an argument, since admit it, they can make one for raids as well.

OnizukaBR.8537:

You wanna take Gors because him and sabetha are the only ones that you can’t drag forever ( Gors no updraft, Sab platform destroyed).
But Sloth, VG, Trio, Mathias, KC, Scort, Xera. You can drag forever if you want so not a DPS problem.
Edit: and Even those two you can take non meta builds, just have to be dps builds. You can take sword guardian ( its not meta ), Power Reaper, Power Dagger thief… and you would still complete it because there a lot of meta builds that does enough damage. The design allow a lot of builds, but these two dont allow tank builds, and thats perfectly fine.

And yet I haven’t seen any of those build being accepted to either guilds or pugs. Still waiting for a respone about my other points though.

Fractals were never Marketed as Challenging like raids were, that’s the difference Fractals were designed with low levels being able to play in them as well hence the scaling effect. Raids were designed to be the hardest content in game and offered rewards as such, you make an easier version it takes away that challenge that is the core design and sole intent that make up raids. I don’t see how you can’t understand that, fractals were not meant to be the hardest or most challenging content otherwise they would have never aloud up leveling characters, raids were designed with 1 and only 1 difficulty in mind.

Also using T4 fractals as an example they are by default less accessible than raids and always will be just based on the pure concept of fractals.

I know that . Also I agree T4 fractals are less accessible than raids are, this is why I think making T4 fractals “as a stepping stone into raiding” is, sorry I don’t have other word for it, idiotic. Also you seem to forgot, high fractals were the hardest thing in the game right up until the introduction of raids, and I don’t see how that was not “meant to be the hardest or most challenging content”.

And raids would still be the hardest content in game , I don’t see how can’t you understand. Just others would also get new repeatable content even if they don’t want to do the hardest challenge the game has to offer.

OnizukaBR.8537:

They are not accepted because most of the time someone doesnt wanna change their playstile is because he doesnt like to adapt or he really doesnt know how to play a proper build. So why would I or anyone else increase the chance of failure ( not because of this person build, but because he might doesnt know what he is doing) just for the sake of this person play his build?
Non meta build are usually seeing on static group, because you know the people in your group and you know they will carry his weight on his non meta build. You dont know people you pug with so you want to increase the chances of clearing.

You are talking to someone who frequently raids , I know why people are taking meta builds. But answer me this: Why did those people I trained leave the raiding scene altogether, even though they geared up their character,used meta builds, they looked for training groups, looked for guilds. Even you left for 5 months. Is this what an accessible content does?

on certain fractals you can complete them with little to no AR on T4 that’s not difficulty, people can solo the boss fractals, and so on the content isn’t hard, the only difficulty fractals have was added with the revamped Swamp.

Fractals were designed with the Tiered system, their rewards were designed that way, even with the tiered system of rewards they had issues with balancing rewards and getting people to play more than just Swamp for the longest due to an imbalance in effort to reward, if you add a tiered Raid it will cause issues if they add too much in rewards people will only do Easy mode if they don’t add enough people won’t do the content.

Again if you add an easy mode raid it automatically elliminates the challenge that raids represent, especially if the easy mode gives players the rewards from the regular raid.

Swagger.1459:

Seriously peeps, there is nothing wrong with having difficulty settings at all… and having scaling rewards for the different settings… and getting more players involved with endgame content and increasing retention.

Raids are not like players needing to compete for a 200k prize pool where only the best of the best twitch players can win… Raids are end game content to extend the life of the game for players and for fun.

Other game companies were smart enough to be inclusive with raids, and the devs here are smart enough to figure it out and implement… Anet is not some dirt poor company struggling to raise funds. It’s not like they need to devote millions of dollars and 50 devs either to open the raid doors more… Anet is also capable and competent and creative enough to do whatever they put their focus on. Let’s not make it seem like they would have to rewrite the game engine, or lack the talent, to make difficulty settings happen…

Given the lack of new content in other areas of the game (notwithstanding the recent patch, which I do enjoy) I am concerned about putting resources to something with minimal impact at best and harmful to normal mode at worst.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Again if you add an easy mode raid it automatically elliminates the challenge that raids represent, especially if the easy mode gives players the rewards from the regular raid.

Only in your opinion. Raids would still be the hardest content in the game, which is the point.

OnizukaBR.8537:

Yes, when you find that you dont like the content you leave it. I joined WvWvW in the begining of the game, didnt like it, never played it again. Its accessible but its not for my taste, just like raids are for some people.
I joined raids at the begining, didnt like it ( at that time was because nobody know what to do ), didnt try again for 5 months, then tried again, liked it and now i raid every week. I only log for fractal dailies after i reach MS cap as there is nothing i like more then raiding right now.
And because of raid for the first i found a reason to join groups, and even TS/Disc to talk to people.

The difference between raids and WvW is quite obvious. You can’t just jump into raids and be successful. If people who didn’t get into raiding yet try to get into raiding , why wouldn’t they stop after their first training run? They’ve enjoyed it, yet the barriers that raids represent scare them off/exhausted them enough to stop trying, just like you. If you really did enjoy raiding ,then you wouldn’t have left in the first place, I was there in that 5 months when an average player got better, and wether you like it or not, failing is a big part of the current raids, yet it sounds to me like you didn’t enjoy that part.

Scipio, I may have lost track in the back-and-forth, but what problem are you trying to solve? Is your solution just an easy mode raid?

Just trying to understand your principles.

For instance, I see no reason why raids need to be easy, when we have other easy content. And I find new easy content is far superior to recycled easy content. Finally, there’s other hard content in this game, like arah and Aetherpath, that has no easy mode.

I find it easier to engage (and disengage) when I know where the other person is coming from.

Scipio.3204:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Again if you add an easy mode raid it automatically elliminates the challenge that raids represent, especially if the easy mode gives players the rewards from the regular raid.

Only in your opinion. Raids would still be the hardest content in the game, which is the point.

OnizukaBR.8537:

Yes, when you find that you dont like the content you leave it. I joined WvWvW in the begining of the game, didnt like it, never played it again. Its accessible but its not for my taste, just like raids are for some people.
I joined raids at the begining, didnt like it ( at that time was because nobody know what to do ), didnt try again for 5 months, then tried again, liked it and now i raid every week. I only log for fractal dailies after i reach MS cap as there is nothing i like more then raiding right now.
And because of raid for the first i found a reason to join groups, and even TS/Disc to talk to people.

The difference between raids and WvW is quite obvious. You can’t just jump into raids and be successful. If people who didn’t get into raiding yet try to get into raiding , why wouldn’t they stop after their first training run? They’ve enjoyed it, yet the barriers that raids represent scare them off/exhausted them enough to stop trying, just like you. If you really did enjoy raiding ,then you wouldn’t have left in the first place, I was there in that 5 months when an average player got better, and wether you like it or not, failing is a big part of the current raids, yet it sounds to me like you didn’t enjoy that part.

i said it would eliminate the challenge didn’t say regular raids wouldn’t be hard, and again if you add an easy mode raid the challenge that raids represent is gone, since then it wouldn’t be challenging anymore to get the same results, because that easy mode would still be considered a raid.

A fun thing to see how much people really want to just experience the content / story if they implemented a easy mode raid would be to not allow access to any of the materials needed for Legendary armor or the raid specific skins, you would see quiet clearly the majority of the people only want the easier raid for the rewards and nothing else.

Absurdo.8309:

Swagger.1459:

Seriously peeps, there is nothing wrong with having difficulty settings at all… and having scaling rewards for the different settings… and getting more players involved with endgame content and increasing retention.

Raids are not like players needing to compete for a 200k prize pool where only the best of the best twitch players can win… Raids are end game content to extend the life of the game for players and for fun.

Other game companies were smart enough to be inclusive with raids, and the devs here are smart enough to figure it out and implement… Anet is not some dirt poor company struggling to raise funds. It’s not like they need to devote millions of dollars and 50 devs either to open the raid doors more… Anet is also capable and competent and creative enough to do whatever they put their focus on. Let’s not make it seem like they would have to rewrite the game engine, or lack the talent, to make difficulty settings happen…

Given the lack of new content in other areas of the game (notwithstanding the recent patch, which I do enjoy) I am concerned about putting resources to something with minimal impact at best and harmful to normal mode at worst.

Ok, fair enough, but this difficulty setting thing doesn’t require redesigning every part of the raid wings.

Timer adjust options.

5 player, 10 player, 15 player options.

Enemy level scaling options.

Allowing players to be rezzed option.

Boons option like in aerodrome. Debuff option preventing boons.

There are creative ways to do this that don’t break the bank or require a year of polls, meetings, and cdis to figure out and do. Not saying that in 5 minute it’s done, but It can be done creatively.

Swagger.1459:

Absurdo.8309:

Swagger.1459:

Seriously peeps, there is nothing wrong with having difficulty settings at all… and having scaling rewards for the different settings… and getting more players involved with endgame content and increasing retention.

Raids are not like players needing to compete for a 200k prize pool where only the best of the best twitch players can win… Raids are end game content to extend the life of the game for players and for fun.

Other game companies were smart enough to be inclusive with raids, and the devs here are smart enough to figure it out and implement… Anet is not some dirt poor company struggling to raise funds. It’s not like they need to devote millions of dollars and 50 devs either to open the raid doors more… Anet is also capable and competent and creative enough to do whatever they put their focus on. Let’s not make it seem like they would have to rewrite the game engine, or lack the talent, to make difficulty settings happen…

Given the lack of new content in other areas of the game (notwithstanding the recent patch, which I do enjoy) I am concerned about putting resources to something with minimal impact at best and harmful to normal mode at worst.

Ok, fair enough, but this difficulty setting thing doesn’t require redesigning every part of the raid wings.

Timer adjust options.

5 player, 10 player, 15 player options.

Enemy level scaling options.

Allowing players to be rezzed option.

Boons option like in aerodrome. Debuff option preventing boons.

There are creative ways to do this that don’t break the bank or require a year of polls, meetings, and cdis to figure out and do. Not saying that in 5 minute it’s done, but It can be done creatively.

I’m happy to be corrected, but I don’t think anet has the systems in place to quickly add these options.

Plus, determining the reward is a whole other can of worms.

Absurdo.8309:

Scipio, I may have lost track in the back-and-forth, but what problem are you trying to solve? Is your solution just an easy mode raid?

Just trying to understand your principles.

For instance, I see no reason why raids need to be easy, when we have other easy content. And I find new easy content is far superior to recycled easy content. Finally, there’s other hard content in this game, like arah and Aetherpath, that has no easy mode.

I find it easier to engage (and disengage) when I know where the other person is coming from.

I have my reasons to ask for an easy mode. To name a few,

1, I’m concerned about the game’s future, since as we know there is three things in the pipe for PvE players, one is living story content, which doesn’t reward repetition, two will be fractals, which even though are challenging, yet since fractals already have a reward structure you won’t be earning anything new significant which will keep you repeating this fractal , and three, raids, which is only aimed at the minority.

But the thing is, there are no long term goals for those who aren’t raiding and new fractals and living story won’t give them any. They even suspended the Legendary Weapons .

2, Since my playtime is inconsistent , I can’t afford to join static groups most of the time, which made me PUG mostly. I don’t have a problem with this, however through my PUG s I met a lot of people, guilds. I once even joined a guild (as pug) , and they were impressed with my performance, so they kept inviting me when they saw me online. They were a decent group, we killed VG & Gorse several times on the first try, however, for some reason I don’t know they weren’t comfortable with other bosses.

Over time I saw this guild become smaller and smaller til the point they disbanded. I just can’t stop to believe that this could have been avoided if they had an enviroment where they could just practice the mechanics to get better. And this is not only about this guild, about 20% of the people I played raids with and kept in touch still raids today.

3, I’m also concerned about the size of the raid population. Right now raids could be considered new and shiny , but we reached the point where I see people leaving raid on both end, since they reached the 150 LI for their armor.

This point only gets worse by the new information about new raids I’ve read on reddit, which is future raids will still be dropping legendary insights. From the start I thought the Forsaken Thicket will be the place to get legendary armor, but if future raids will also have the armor as the motivator, what will keep those raiding who already got the requirement for the armor? And yes, I know about a lot of people who only raid right now to reach that 150 LI.

I’m just afraid raids will get the same fate as SAB, the devs get impressed by the numbers they achieved with it, they make a second world, a lot less people will play this second world than they expected, SAB gets ignored for two years.

These are the ones that came into mind but there are smaller things…. however these are my main concerns.

Absurdo.8309:

Swagger.1459:

Absurdo.8309:

Swagger.1459:

Seriously peeps, there is nothing wrong with having difficulty settings at all… and having scaling rewards for the different settings… and getting more players involved with endgame content and increasing retention.

Raids are not like players needing to compete for a 200k prize pool where only the best of the best twitch players can win… Raids are end game content to extend the life of the game for players and for fun.

Other game companies were smart enough to be inclusive with raids, and the devs here are smart enough to figure it out and implement… Anet is not some dirt poor company struggling to raise funds. It’s not like they need to devote millions of dollars and 50 devs either to open the raid doors more… Anet is also capable and competent and creative enough to do whatever they put their focus on. Let’s not make it seem like they would have to rewrite the game engine, or lack the talent, to make difficulty settings happen…

Given the lack of new content in other areas of the game (notwithstanding the recent patch, which I do enjoy) I am concerned about putting resources to something with minimal impact at best and harmful to normal mode at worst.

Ok, fair enough, but this difficulty setting thing doesn’t require redesigning every part of the raid wings.

Timer adjust options.

5 player, 10 player, 15 player options.

Enemy level scaling options.

Allowing players to be rezzed option.

Boons option like in aerodrome. Debuff option preventing boons.

There are creative ways to do this that don’t break the bank or require a year of polls, meetings, and cdis to figure out and do. Not saying that in 5 minute it’s done, but It can be done creatively.

I’m happy to be corrected, but I don’t think anet has the systems in place to quickly add these options.

Plus, determining the reward is a whole other can of worms.

The devs have the capability to add these options. Look at the aerodrome dps area.

Normal mode- 1 LI per boss at 1x per week.

Current mode- 2 LI per boss at 1x per week.

Hard mode- 2 LI per boss and 1 legendary armor crafting mat per boss at 1x per week.

Vendor that sells cool stuff for LI as well.

…These things don’t need to be made unnecessarily complex honestly.

Swagger.1459:

Absurdo.8309:

Swagger.1459:

Absurdo.8309:

Swagger.1459:

Seriously peeps, there is nothing wrong with having difficulty settings at all… and having scaling rewards for the different settings… and getting more players involved with endgame content and increasing retention.

Raids are not like players needing to compete for a 200k prize pool where only the best of the best twitch players can win… Raids are end game content to extend the life of the game for players and for fun.

Other game companies were smart enough to be inclusive with raids, and the devs here are smart enough to figure it out and implement… Anet is not some dirt poor company struggling to raise funds. It’s not like they need to devote millions of dollars and 50 devs either to open the raid doors more… Anet is also capable and competent and creative enough to do whatever they put their focus on. Let’s not make it seem like they would have to rewrite the game engine, or lack the talent, to make difficulty settings happen…

Given the lack of new content in other areas of the game (notwithstanding the recent patch, which I do enjoy) I am concerned about putting resources to something with minimal impact at best and harmful to normal mode at worst.

Ok, fair enough, but this difficulty setting thing doesn’t require redesigning every part of the raid wings.

Timer adjust options.

5 player, 10 player, 15 player options.

Enemy level scaling options.

Allowing players to be rezzed option.

Boons option like in aerodrome. Debuff option preventing boons.

There are creative ways to do this that don’t break the bank or require a year of polls, meetings, and cdis to figure out and do. Not saying that in 5 minute it’s done, but It can be done creatively.

I’m happy to be corrected, but I don’t think anet has the systems in place to quickly add these options.

Plus, determining the reward is a whole other can of worms.

The devs have the capability to add these options. Look at the aerodrome dps area.

Normal mode- 1 LI per boss at 1x per week.

Current mode- 2 LI per boss at 1x per week.

Hard mode- 2 LI per boss and 1 legendary armor crafting mat per boss at 1x per week.

Vendor that sells cool stuff for LI as well.

…These things don’t need to be made unnecessarily complex honestly.

“These things don’t need to be made unnecessarily complex honestly. " But they are, your suggestion is really easy to see how awfull it is. Current mode only giving 1 more LI per boss ?? Are you serious?? People would just farm easy mode for a couple of months more and current mode would be desert land for pugs.

OnizukaBR.8537:

Swagger.1459:

Absurdo.8309:

Swagger.1459:

Absurdo.8309:

Swagger.1459:

Seriously peeps, there is nothing wrong with having difficulty settings at all… and having scaling rewards for the different settings… and getting more players involved with endgame content and increasing retention.

Raids are not like players needing to compete for a 200k prize pool where only the best of the best twitch players can win… Raids are end game content to extend the life of the game for players and for fun.

Other game companies were smart enough to be inclusive with raids, and the devs here are smart enough to figure it out and implement… Anet is not some dirt poor company struggling to raise funds. It’s not like they need to devote millions of dollars and 50 devs either to open the raid doors more… Anet is also capable and competent and creative enough to do whatever they put their focus on. Let’s not make it seem like they would have to rewrite the game engine, or lack the talent, to make difficulty settings happen…

Given the lack of new content in other areas of the game (notwithstanding the recent patch, which I do enjoy) I am concerned about putting resources to something with minimal impact at best and harmful to normal mode at worst.

Ok, fair enough, but this difficulty setting thing doesn’t require redesigning every part of the raid wings.

Timer adjust options.

5 player, 10 player, 15 player options.

Enemy level scaling options.

Allowing players to be rezzed option.

Boons option like in aerodrome. Debuff option preventing boons.

There are creative ways to do this that don’t break the bank or require a year of polls, meetings, and cdis to figure out and do. Not saying that in 5 minute it’s done, but It can be done creatively.

I’m happy to be corrected, but I don’t think anet has the systems in place to quickly add these options.

Plus, determining the reward is a whole other can of worms.

The devs have the capability to add these options. Look at the aerodrome dps area.

Normal mode- 1 LI per boss at 1x per week.

Current mode- 2 LI per boss at 1x per week.

Hard mode- 2 LI per boss and 1 legendary armor crafting mat per boss at 1x per week.

Vendor that sells cool stuff for LI as well.

…These things don’t need to be made unnecessarily complex honestly.

“These things don’t need to be made unnecessarily complex honestly. " But they are, your suggestion is really easy to see how awfull it is. Current mode only giving 1 more LI per boss ?? Are you serious?? People would just farm easy mode for a couple of months more and current mode would be desert land for pugs.

I saw the " raids aren’t meant to be pugged" argument quite often on this forum, why should we consider them?

EDIT: I mean if that is your only argument against it.

Scipio.3204:

OnizukaBR.8537:

Swagger.1459:

Absurdo.8309:

Swagger.1459:

Absurdo.8309:

Swagger.1459:

Seriously peeps, there is nothing wrong with having difficulty settings at all… and having scaling rewards for the different settings… and getting more players involved with endgame content and increasing retention.

Raids are not like players needing to compete for a 200k prize pool where only the best of the best twitch players can win… Raids are end game content to extend the life of the game for players and for fun.

Other game companies were smart enough to be inclusive with raids, and the devs here are smart enough to figure it out and implement… Anet is not some dirt poor company struggling to raise funds. It’s not like they need to devote millions of dollars and 50 devs either to open the raid doors more… Anet is also capable and competent and creative enough to do whatever they put their focus on. Let’s not make it seem like they would have to rewrite the game engine, or lack the talent, to make difficulty settings happen…

Given the lack of new content in other areas of the game (notwithstanding the recent patch, which I do enjoy) I am concerned about putting resources to something with minimal impact at best and harmful to normal mode at worst.

Ok, fair enough, but this difficulty setting thing doesn’t require redesigning every part of the raid wings.

Timer adjust options.

5 player, 10 player, 15 player options.

Enemy level scaling options.

Allowing players to be rezzed option.

Boons option like in aerodrome. Debuff option preventing boons.

There are creative ways to do this that don’t break the bank or require a year of polls, meetings, and cdis to figure out and do. Not saying that in 5 minute it’s done, but It can be done creatively.

I’m happy to be corrected, but I don’t think anet has the systems in place to quickly add these options.

Plus, determining the reward is a whole other can of worms.

The devs have the capability to add these options. Look at the aerodrome dps area.

Normal mode- 1 LI per boss at 1x per week.

Current mode- 2 LI per boss at 1x per week.

Hard mode- 2 LI per boss and 1 legendary armor crafting mat per boss at 1x per week.

Vendor that sells cool stuff for LI as well.

…These things don’t need to be made unnecessarily complex honestly.

“These things don’t need to be made unnecessarily complex honestly. " But they are, your suggestion is really easy to see how awfull it is. Current mode only giving 1 more LI per boss ?? Are you serious?? People would just farm easy mode for a couple of months more and current mode would be desert land for pugs.

I saw the " raids aren’t meant to be pugged" argument quite often on this forum, why should we consider them?

EDIT: I mean if that is your only argument against it.

I think if someone doesnt draw it you cant understand. No, its not the only reason.
Another one giving LI on easy mode is the same that asking for Ad Infinitum only doing Tier 1 fractals.
Another reason, you talk about accessibility making sure pugs never get a group to do the current raids ( as opposite of now that you can easiliy pug).
Another reason you are trying to change both the target audience and the purpose of the raids.
You are full of non-sense, you create a problem that doesnt exists, and give solution that actually will create problens that dont exist now.

OnizukaBR.8537:

Scipio.3204:

OnizukaBR.8537:

Swagger.1459:

Absurdo.8309:

Swagger.1459:

Absurdo.8309:

Swagger.1459:

Seriously peeps, there is nothing wrong with having difficulty settings at all… and having scaling rewards for the different settings… and getting more players involved with endgame content and increasing retention.

Raids are not like players needing to compete for a 200k prize pool where only the best of the best twitch players can win… Raids are end game content to extend the life of the game for players and for fun.

Other game companies were smart enough to be inclusive with raids, and the devs here are smart enough to figure it out and implement… Anet is not some dirt poor company struggling to raise funds. It’s not like they need to devote millions of dollars and 50 devs either to open the raid doors more… Anet is also capable and competent and creative enough to do whatever they put their focus on. Let’s not make it seem like they would have to rewrite the game engine, or lack the talent, to make difficulty settings happen…

Given the lack of new content in other areas of the game (notwithstanding the recent patch, which I do enjoy) I am concerned about putting resources to something with minimal impact at best and harmful to normal mode at worst.

Ok, fair enough, but this difficulty setting thing doesn’t require redesigning every part of the raid wings.

Timer adjust options.

5 player, 10 player, 15 player options.

Enemy level scaling options.

Allowing players to be rezzed option.

Boons option like in aerodrome. Debuff option preventing boons.

There are creative ways to do this that don’t break the bank or require a year of polls, meetings, and cdis to figure out and do. Not saying that in 5 minute it’s done, but It can be done creatively.

I’m happy to be corrected, but I don’t think anet has the systems in place to quickly add these options.

Plus, determining the reward is a whole other can of worms.

The devs have the capability to add these options. Look at the aerodrome dps area.

Normal mode- 1 LI per boss at 1x per week.

Current mode- 2 LI per boss at 1x per week.

Hard mode- 2 LI per boss and 1 legendary armor crafting mat per boss at 1x per week.

Vendor that sells cool stuff for LI as well.

…These things don’t need to be made unnecessarily complex honestly.

“These things don’t need to be made unnecessarily complex honestly. " But they are, your suggestion is really easy to see how awfull it is. Current mode only giving 1 more LI per boss ?? Are you serious?? People would just farm easy mode for a couple of months more and current mode would be desert land for pugs.

I saw the " raids aren’t meant to be pugged" argument quite often on this forum, why should we consider them?

EDIT: I mean if that is your only argument against it.

I think if someone doesnt draw it you cant understand. No, its not the only reason.
Another one giving LI on easy mode is the same that asking for Ad Infinitum only doing Tier 1 fractals.
Another reason, you talk about accessibility making sure pugs never get a group to do the current raids ( as opposite of now that you can easiliy pug).
Another reason you are trying to change both the target audience and the purpose of the raids.
You are full of non-sense, you create a problem that doesnt exists, and give solution that actually will create problens that dont exist now.

Have to agree, my previous statement was misunderstandable. What I meant is if we create a tiered difficulty we wouldn’t need to consider PUGs on harder difficulty , since those won’t be meant for them, but currently PUGs have no alternative. In that principle anet even could create harder raids than currently, since I see some people asking for it.

I also have a proposal for rewards, since this seems to be the most sensitive topic. Currently raids seem to have about 1 weapon set, a few unique ones, two backpack and ofc the armor. All anet needs to do is create a weapon set similar to these ones, a few unique ones, and add them to both easy mode and hard mode.

Regarding the legendary armor How about this: Instead of the easy version dropping Legendary Insights, it will drop something like Legendary Insight fragment. This fragment works exactly like Legendary Insight in the legendary armor recipes, but if you use these you won’t get the envoy armor skins, just the utility of legendary armor (eg. stat swapping). If you want to upgrade your armor to envoy in the future you can with 25 LI.

bamm, everything stayed exclusive, a wider audience gets repeatable content, as far as I can see, everyone can be happy.

And just because you and I don’t have problems, doesn’t mean they don’t exist. No need to name call me or insult me to reinforce your arguments.