Guild Wars 2

Blaeys.3102:

Absurdo.8309:

Blaeys.3102:

The one thing I will say (and Ive said this a lot) is that the idea of casual players go to section A of the game and hardcore go to section B isn’t a viable model. It separates the PVE community and waters down developer resources.

Umm, isn’t this exactly what you want with an easy mode?

Absolutely not. The exact opposite in fact.

Right now, hardcore players are pushed toward raids while more casual players are pushed toward Bloodstone Fen (current end map). This is the polarization I was talking about.

What I want is for them to make both of these areas offer something for more audiences. In raids, that would mean either a training mode or a gold/silver/bronze reward based on kill time (which would be my preference).

But what we don’t talk about is what this mindset shift would look like in a place like Bloodstone Fen. What I would like to see in open world is incremental waves with ever more challenging content. Basically, instead of events (and world bosses) appearing on a schedule, they should come as a natural part of event chains where difficulty ramps up higher and higher the longer the players “hold” the area. It starts off easy – offering a more casual experience but eventually becomes eye-bleeding hard – with raid level bosses appearing on the map. I believe that, as the map ramps up, casual players would opt to move to map instances where the content remains more casual – while more and more hardcore players would enter the map to face the later challenges.

There are many ways they could do this, but the perfect example of how this might work would be in Cursed Shore – defending the gates of Arah. Instead of defending against the same group every so often, the attack event would continue to add more difficult opponents (think a wave of 5-10 Gigaticus Lupici) until the players eventually have to fall back (at which time we have to retake the gates and start over – with the more casual experience).

In Fractals, this would mean making lvl 100+ islands rival raids in complexity and difficulty. The lvl1-50 would offer the casual experience while the 100+ would be the hardcore experience – giving people a breadth of experiences while still encouraging them to play the same content. That same concept could work for guild missions (even incorporating insane versions of Tequatl for “legendary” level missions) and for living story steps (more challenging challenge motes).

This is what challenging content should have been, imo. Just walling off raids and saying “this is for the hardcore players” and “XYZ is for the casuals” creates the polarizing effects I mentioned (and that we are definitely seeing).

Design a game for all of your PVE players (with story and compelling content in ALL of it), but use the resources and strong developer knowledge to vary that experience enough to make sure those game elements appeal to a variety of playstyles.

I have to wonder what the current raid team could do if they were tasked with making Mai Trin or later steps in the “defend the gates of Arah” example I give above more difficult.

These ideas … sound not so good.

First, let’s talk about timer rewards. I know this is your pet solution, but it would only make raid groups have more stringent requirements.

Groups will only want very experienced players if they’re going for a gold time. Groups will only want the meta composition. Since there would be more gradients in what constitutes a success, groups would be less inclined to risk a close kill.

And, as always, timers are rarely the reason the groups fail. It’s almost always the mechanics.

Second, let’s look at your map suggestion. I kinda like it, but I don’t think it would fit well with gw2. In no particular order, here’s why:

- It asks players to leave the map once it reaches a certain point. Despite that these players built the map up in the first place.
- It encourages map hopping
- If you want to get to the hard content, you have to waste your time with easy content, or map hop
- Hard open world content is generally not well-received (see first version of chak gerent). Mainly because it requires organization in a massive scale
- Individual contribution is diminished in large content
- You can’t really choose who to play with in large group content

Finally, let’s look at guild wars 2 to see how radical your suggestions really are.

-Open world content is generally easy, with a single difficulty per map.
- Between maps, there’s variation in difficulty. That is, ruins of orr is harder than Queensdale.
- Dungeons have a single difficulty. Some are harder than others. Some, like arah, are on such a different level that in the vanilla game people bought runs.

And let’s look at HOT:
- Open world maps are easy to medium in difficulty
- Each map has a single difficulty. Some maps, like dragon stand, are harder than others.
- Raids have a single difficulty. Some are harder than others. They are on a different level than vanilla HOT that some people buy runs.

I don’t see how raids are different than the dungeons of old. There’s no reason why different content can’t have varying degrees of difficulty. Not everything needs to be easy.

Absurdo.8309:

I don’t see how raids are different than the dungeons of old. There’s no reason why different content can’t have varying degrees of difficulty. Not everything needs to be easy.

There is also no reason the same content can’t have varying degrees of difficulty (fractals for example). They even realized this with dungeons early on (thus the story modes – a model I don’t think worked perfectly but did show they understand the need).

I understand (and partially agree with) some of your counterpoints, but see a major benefit to spreading the difficult (and casual) content throughout the game. It would alleviate the content drought issue – and not just for casuals. Hardcore players wouldn’t have to wait 9-12 (or more) months between compelling content drops either.

While it might take longer to put out specific content types, it would make the game as a whole more appealing to more people.

Blaeys.3102:

Absurdo.8309:

I don’t see how raids are different than the dungeons of old. There’s no reason why different content can’t have varying degrees of difficulty. Not everything needs to be easy.

There is also no reason the same content can’t have varying degrees of difficulty (fractals for example). They even realized this with dungeons early on (thus the story modes – a model I don’t think worked perfectly but did show they understand the need).

I understand (and partially agree with) some of your counterpoints, but see a major benefit to spreading the difficult (and casual) content throughout the game. It would alleviate the content drought issue – and not just for casuals. Hardcore players wouldn’t have to wait 9-12 (or more) months between compelling content drops either.

While it might take longer to put out specific content types, it would make the game as a whole more appealing to more people.

I’ll disagree on multiple difficulty modes solving content droughts. It would just take longer to release anything. While it would, in theory, cater to more players, there would be longer gaps between any content being released. I think this was the main complaint — there was no non-raid new content before bloodstone fen.

And, if you’re goal is to solve player segregation, then fractals is not your solution. If you can, you only play t4. There’s no reason to do the easier ones.

Contrast this to escort. Even if you can beat the harder raids, there’s still reasons to do this one. Or, heck, even bloodstone fen. Gliding around can be fun, even for raiders. I know I enjoy it. I don’t need every single piece of content to have varying sets of difficulty.

Absurdo.8309:

I’ll disagree on multiple difficulty modes solving content droughts. It would just take longer to release anything. While it would, in theory, cater to more players, there would be longer gaps between any content being released. I think this was the main complaint — there was no non-raid new content before bloodstone fen.

If raid content had offered something for more playerstyles, then it would have been considered as part of the regular content release schedule my more people. That would have help alleviate the drought concerns.

The inverse is also true – more difficult (very difficult) content in other game modes would reduce the wait for hardcore players as well.

As to your point about fractals – it is about creating common experiences. Yes, people playing T4 cant be in a T1 at the same time, but it does mean that both groups are getting to experience the content (story, base mechanics, setting, etc). That is more important than most want to realize.

Walling off content (even soft walls) removes that commonality. It is no longer the same game played different ways. It is, in essence, two different games. The more we separate players like this, the more polarized the community becomes, which isn’t healthy for the future of the game.

Blaeys.3102:

Absurdo.8309:

I’ll disagree on multiple difficulty modes solving content droughts. It would just take longer to release anything. While it would, in theory, cater to more players, there would be longer gaps between any content being released. I think this was the main complaint — there was no non-raid new content before bloodstone fen.

If raid content had offered something for more playerstyles, then it would have been considered as part of the regular content release schedule my more people. That would have help alleviate the drought concerns.

The inverse is also true – more difficult (very difficult) content in other game modes would reduce the wait for hardcore players as well.

As to your point about fractals – it is about creating common experiences. Yes, people playing T4 cant be in a T1 at the same time, but it does mean that both groups are getting to experience the content (story, base mechanics, setting, etc). That is more important than most want to realize.

Walling off content (even soft walls) removes that commonality. It is no longer the same game played different ways. It is, in essence, two different games. The more we separate players like this, the more polarized the community becomes, which isn’t healthy for the future of the game.

I don’t know about others, but I view common experiences as a negative. If I want to play easy content, I don’t want a watered down version of something I’ve already done. And similarly for hard content.

As to content droughts, well, I don’t know what else to say. Your suggestions would make them even longer. And a hard instance is a far cry from a hard open world map. Each would cater to different types of players.

Absurdo.8309:

Blaeys.3102:

Absurdo.8309:

I’ll disagree on multiple difficulty modes solving content droughts. It would just take longer to release anything. While it would, in theory, cater to more players, there would be longer gaps between any content being released. I think this was the main complaint — there was no non-raid new content before bloodstone fen.

If raid content had offered something for more playerstyles, then it would have been considered as part of the regular content release schedule my more people. That would have help alleviate the drought concerns.

The inverse is also true – more difficult (very difficult) content in other game modes would reduce the wait for hardcore players as well.

As to your point about fractals – it is about creating common experiences. Yes, people playing T4 cant be in a T1 at the same time, but it does mean that both groups are getting to experience the content (story, base mechanics, setting, etc). That is more important than most want to realize.

Walling off content (even soft walls) removes that commonality. It is no longer the same game played different ways. It is, in essence, two different games. The more we separate players like this, the more polarized the community becomes, which isn’t healthy for the future of the game.

I don’t know about others, but I view common experiences as a negative. If I want to play easy content, I don’t want a watered down version of something I’ve already done. And similarly for hard content.

As to content droughts, well, I don’t know what else to say. Your suggestions would make them even longer. And a hard instance is a far cry from a hard open world map. Each would cater to different types of players.

I think the same. And most people wouldnt touch easy mode raid. For many reasons:
- There are people that dont enjoy raids, be it easy or hard, and thats ok, as there are people that dont like PvP for example, so they wont start raiding because there is an easy mode.
- People think that the raids are full of history and cinematics, when they arrive at it and see that just an arena with a boss with 3-4 attacks, that dont even have really special effects they will be dissapointed ( they attacks are only thrilling because they can kill you not because they have super cool animations, so easy mode they dont have it ).
- Boring content need to have really good rewards, even Bloodstone fen being new if it didnt have the blood ruby for ascended gear most people would do the story, play it for some days and never go back to that map.
They are really solids arguments against easy mode raids. And really weak ones pro easy mode.

Blaeys.3102:

There is also no reason the same content can’t have varying degrees of difficulty (fractals for example). They even realized this with dungeons early on (thus the story modes – a model I don’t think worked perfectly but did show they understand the need).

There are reasons why content should not have varying degrees of difficulty, you just don’t like them. These are:

Resource Allocation

ANet has cautioned posters in similar threads not to assume that adding different difficulty would be a trivial programming task. Until they say otherwise, a development house that is trying to push out regular content on a sustainable release schedule to avoid the so-called content droughts cannot afford the resources to make varying degrees of difficulty for every bit of PvE content they create.

Splitting the Player-Base

While raids do create a split, that split already existed, it was just focused around dungeons. Splitting the raid-interested player-base and the open PvE-interested player base is something else entirely.

Rewards

Splitting raids (or open world PvE) into difficulty modes begs the question of whether the rewards are:

1. Completely different (even more work for ANet);
2. The same, but allocated differently according to difficulty. This is a very delicate balancing act that does not have a solution that would please those wanting easier and those wanting harder; or
3. Making the easier mode offer very little in the way of carrots. Since you want to point to story mode dungeons, the lesson there is that producing content that does not offer (perceived as) good rewards just does not get repeated as much as MMO content needs to be to justify its creation.

Additionally the bronze-silver-gold system would be a very bad implementation because once a group gets near to the silver-gold time barrier they always have to commit suicide (/gg) to prevent slipping into the silver frame the last second of their try. This would lead to many more attempts to beat the raid boss in pugs and obviously resulting in higher frustration and most likely to rants and toxicity within pug groups.

Vinceman.4572:

Additionally the bronze-silver-gold system would be a very bad implementation because once a group gets near to the silver-gold time barrier they always have to commit suicide (/gg) to prevent slipping into the silver frame the last second of their try. This would lead to many more attempts to beat the raid boss in pugs and obviously resulting in higher frustration and most likely to rants and toxicity within pug groups.

Ding Ding, we have a winner. This was one of the problems with why this ‘Wildstar’ system was an issue.

Sykper.6583:

Ding Ding, we have a winner. This was one of the problems with why this ‘Wildstar’ system was an issue.

This issue is super easy to counter, just implement fractal tier chest system as reward for a kill. You killed boss in gold frame – you got all 3 chests (bronze, silver and gold), you killed boss in silver and then in gold frame – you got 2 chests (bronze and silver) and then gold one after gold kill.

Rednik.3809:

Sykper.6583:

Ding Ding, we have a winner. This was one of the problems with why this ‘Wildstar’ system was an issue.

This issue is super easy to counter, just implement fractal tier chest system as reward for a kill. You killed boss in gold frame – you got all 3 chests (bronze, silver and gold), you killed boss in silver and then in gold frame – you got 2 chests (bronze and silver) and then gold one after gold kill.

I think you misunderstand the problem. If you the group wants to get gold, and slips into silver for a couple of seconds, they’ll need to redo the encounter. Plus, more gradients of success/failure only leads to a tightening of group requirements.

And this solution is trying to fix a problem that doesn’t exist. Groups almost always fail from mechanics.

Absurdo.8309:

And this solution is trying to fix a problem that doesn’t exist. Groups almost always fail from mechanics.

They fail from mechanics, but the timer is still quite often the reason behind that failure.

In order to finish the encounter before timer runs out, players discard builds and strategies that might have made the encounter easier for them otherwise. They also play under greater pressure, making it more likely that they will make a mistake.

Some people consider it a desirable thing. I’m not one of them however.

(still, the bronze/silver/gold system based on time is bad, for many reasons mentioned already. I remember it from GW factions, and it was generally despised then.)

Rednik.3809:

Sykper.6583:

Ding Ding, we have a winner. This was one of the problems with why this ‘Wildstar’ system was an issue.

This issue is super easy to counter, just implement fractal tier chest system as reward for a kill. You killed boss in gold frame – you got all 3 chests (bronze, silver and gold), you killed boss in silver and then in gold frame – you got 2 chests (bronze and silver) and then gold one after gold kill.

What leads to the issue that every boss has to be present in the raid until you beat him at gold level or you are excluded to proceed raiding until you either play with the same group or stay in the same instance at this time point or find someone who opens the next boss to go for bronze/silver there. Otherwise groups have to raid from the start of every wing again.
If you think ahead and you want a particular boss to kill on gold but nobody of your group has killed another boss before this one on gold. You’ll always have to fight the bosses before the one you want to kill because they respawn when everyone leaves the instance.
Such a system would cause so many extra annoying problems and cost so much more of dev time, it would not be justified or worth the effort.

Due to the fact that some bosses have to be changed anyway (Gorseval, Sabetha, KC, Xera), it would be better to have a switch/request at raid start with “easy” – “normal” (current) – “hard” mode. The event system with bronze-silver-gold is too complex and produces too many new problems.

Astralporing.1957:

Absurdo.8309:

And this solution is trying to fix a problem that doesn’t exist. Groups almost always fail from mechanics.

They fail from mechanics, but the timer is still quite often the reason behind that failure.

In order to finish the encounter before timer runs out, players discard builds and strategies that might have made the encounter easier for them otherwise. They also play under greater pressure, making it more likely that they will make a mistake.

Some people consider it a desirable thing. I’m not one of them however.

(still, the bronze/silver/gold system based on time is bad, for many reasons mentioned already. I remember it from GW factions, and it was generally despised then.)

Which builds have you discarded because of the timer? While pug groups are unlikely to accept a trash build, you could still probably beat the bosses with them.

Timer is pretty much never the reason anyone fails. Ask any person who has raided regularly (~20+ insights) and they can tell you every group that fails is due to mechanics or bad play and not enrage timer.

Most of the time when I do my kills someone will ask how much we had left on timer and nobody would know because nobody cares about that. I’ve killed Matthias well into enrage with half the raid group dead, big whoop it’s not a 100% wipe mechanic like some other games.

Also I’m pretty sure you can run whatever build you want and still manage to clear raids if you’re good enough. Low man clears, no elite spec clears, masterwork gear clears, 1 hour matthias kill etc have all been done.

Rednik.3809:

Sykper.6583:

Ding Ding, we have a winner. This was one of the problems with why this ‘Wildstar’ system was an issue.

This issue is super easy to counter, just implement fractal tier chest system as reward for a kill. You killed boss in gold frame – you got all 3 chests (bronze, silver and gold), you killed boss in silver and then in gold frame – you got 2 chests (bronze and silver) and then gold one after gold kill.

This.

As for slipping into silver – for top tier groups that would be the equivalent of wiping. If you got silver, you just reset the fight and do it again (would require a way to reset it) – with each reward (gold, silver, bronze) available each week.

This isn’t a new system for GW2. The daily rewards for Tequatl and other bosses work exactly like this. There is a precedent in the game.

As for the having to kill bosses multiple times a week issue that Vinceman brings up, there are pretty simple solutions to get around that issue as well.

As far as failing from mechanics – this system would allow groups not interested in gold level rewards (or who are practicing) to stack more survival gear (as sort of a player created training mode). It creates more accessibility and build diversity without taking away the challenge or reward offered to top end groups.

There really is no down side. I think people are stretching to find criticisms here.

We all realize there are a lot of players very happy with raids. No one is trying to take that away. It really is about extending the experience to more players (many of whom would really enjoy it – despite what a few people want to believe).

Blaeys.3102:

Rednik.3809:

Sykper.6583:

Ding Ding, we have a winner. This was one of the problems with why this ‘Wildstar’ system was an issue.

This issue is super easy to counter, just implement fractal tier chest system as reward for a kill. You killed boss in gold frame – you got all 3 chests (bronze, silver and gold), you killed boss in silver and then in gold frame – you got 2 chests (bronze and silver) and then gold one after gold kill.

This.

As for slipping into silver – for top tier groups that would be the equivalent of wiping. If you got silver, you just reset the fight and do it again (would require a way to reset it) – with each reward (gold, silver, bronze) available each week.

This isn’t a new system for GW2. The daily rewards for Tequatl and other bosses work exactly like this. There is a precedent in the game.

As for the having to kill bosses multiple times a week issue that Vinceman brings up, there are pretty simple solutions to get around that issue as well.

As far as failing from mechanics – this system would allow groups not interested in gold level rewards (or who are practicing) to stack more survival gear (as sort of a player created training mode). It creates more accessibility and build diversity without taking away the challenge or reward offered to top end groups.

There really is no down side. I think people are stretching to find criticisms here.

We all realize there are a lot of players very happy with raids. No one is trying to take that away. It really is about extending the experience to more players (many of whom would really enjoy it – despite what a few people want to believe).

This suggestion is terrible for raids.

Lets back up a second. What problem are you trying to solve here?

I think you are trying to make raids more “accessible,” but you really mean easier. Ok. The thing is, timers rarely cause wipes, and you have yet to present any evidence otherwise.

You can go in tankier gear. You can bring 2 healers to every single encounter. You won’t wipe from the timer.

So, you’re trying to solve a problem which doesn’t exist.

Now, let’s move onto the merits of this suggestion.

First, this suggestion would absolutely hurt current raiders. As you mentioned, some groups like to play it safer than others. Bring 2 healers, maybe a dh, etc. Under your proposed system, such compositions could be rendered unviable or unwanted.

Second, we constantly hear complaints about how hard it is to get into raiding. Your suggestion makes it even harder. Groups would only want very experienced players in their gold groups.

Third, group toxicity would increase. You died? Great! You just caused a silver reward. While wipes can sometimes cost a kill, many groups can power through them. Not so with timer based rewards.

Fourth, you spilt the player base. Want to go for silver vg? Too bad! Only gold and copper groups at the moment. You’re making it three times as hard to find a group.

Finally, your solution isn’t anything like teq. Usually, if you can get to the first burn phase, you beat the boss. Also I never see groups say “let’s only go for the first chest guys! The others are too hard.” The first three chests are pity rewards. You get pity shards in raids for failures too.

Tldr: The problem you are trying to solve doesn’t exist, and your solution would severely harm raiding.

Absurdo.8309:

Finally, your solution isn’t anything like teq. Usually, if you can get to the first burn phase, you beat the boss. Also I never see groups say “let’s only go for the first chest guys! The others are too hard.” The first three chests are pity rewards. You get pity shards in raids for failures too.

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I was speaking only about the chest reward system from Tequatl – which was a bit obvious (again, I think people are stretching to come up with criticisms).

And everyone realizes you do not see a problem with the current model. That doesn’t mean that others feel the same way. There is definite room for improvements/greater inclusion in the current raid system. I even think they are starting to experiment with how that might come about (the escort in wing three – testing new ways of tanking, surviving, etc).

No one wants to take the challenge out of raids. This is about extending that experience to more players, which can only result in good things, imo (more justification for raid dev resources, better ways for raiders to train, easier for Anet to include story in raids, etc).

You can fight against this, but I believe it is an inevitability – just as it has been in most other raiding games. Put some thought into how raids can be more inclusive without hurting the current challenge. Someone like you could have a lot of productive feedback to offer via ideas and opinions if you can look past the “I don’t want anyone else to be able to raid” mentality.

Blaeys.3102:

Absurdo.8309:

Finally, your solution isn’t anything like teq. Usually, if you can get to the first burn phase, you beat the boss. Also I never see groups say “let’s only go for the first chest guys! The others are too hard.” The first three chests are pity rewards. You get pity shards in raids for failures too.

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I was speaking only about the chest reward system from Tequatl – which was a bit obvious (again, I think people are stretching to come up with criticisms).

You can’t look at the reward system in isolation.

The fact is, almost no maps fail teq if they can reach the first burn phase.

And the teq chest reward system is not meant to act as a difficulty level. Rather, it is meant to give some rewards for failure. No one says “this is too hard, let’s only go for chest 2.” Like pity shards.

I’m not going to make your argument for you (because I think the idea is harmful and could destroy raids), but triple trouble is a better argument for you. Still, TT difficulty is more a function of organization and number of players.

And, just to be clear, have you been in groups where timers caused a wipe? That is, the group performed the mechanics but just ran out of time? And are these experiences the majority of your wipes?

Blaeys.3102:

And everyone realizes you do not see a problem with the current model. That doesn’t mean that others feel the same way. There is definite room for improvements/greater inclusion in the current raid system. I even think they are starting to experiment with how that might come about (the escort in wing three – testing new ways of tanking, surviving, etc).

No one wants to take the challenge out of raids. This is about extending that experience to more players, which can only result in good things, imo (more justification for raid dev resources, better ways for raiders to train, easier for Anet to include story in raids, etc).

You can fight against this, but I believe it is an inevitability – just as it has been in most other raiding games. Put some thought into how raids can be more inclusive without hurting the current challenge. Someone like you could have a lot of productive feedback to offer via ideas and opinions if you can look past the “I don’t want anyone else to be able to raid” mentality.

I’m all for improving raids. For example, I think there needs to be some incentive to repeat raids later in the week.

Your idea is just really bad.

If my view was “I don’t want anyone to raid,” I would’ve said that. Instead, I attacked the merits of your idea.

I just think other solutions are better to get people into raids. There are guilds. Training runs. Easy raids. Stepping stones. If someone wants to raid, they can.

If someone doesn’t want to raid, that’s ok too. There’s lots of other content. Including new content in 2 weeks.

Absurdo.8309:

Blaeys.3102:

Absurdo.8309:

Finally, your solution isn’t anything like teq. Usually, if you can get to the first burn phase, you beat the boss. Also I never see groups say “let’s only go for the first chest guys! The others are too hard.” The first three chests are pity rewards. You get pity shards in raids for failures too.

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I was speaking only about the chest reward system from Tequatl – which was a bit obvious (again, I think people are stretching to come up with criticisms).

You can’t look at the reward system in isolation.

The fact is, almost no maps fail teq if they can reach the first burn phase.

When talking specifically about reward structures, of course you can look at it in isolation (again, you’re stretching).

And, it most definitely wasn’t always the case that the fight was a guaranteed win after phase 1. The intermittent chests were there to reward stepping stone efforts and encourage continued efforts (the same as they would be in raids – while also giving less dedicated players a way to enjoy the content).

And yes, magnetite shards do this to a tiny degree, but that doesn’t mean the system I outline wouldn’t work (again, using a faulty analogy to stretch your argument). The point has more to do with enabling a training or easy mode with minimal reward to encourage people to participate (and, in the process, learn to raid and possibly move to improve in the pursuit of gold, deepening the pool of hardcore raiders – all while justifying more developer resources toward the game mode).

It really is a win-win. And, I really do think you are stretching a lot in some of the arguments.

Also, I know I’m fighting against the tide here on these forums. I really hate that Anet keeps moving any of these discussions to raiding subforum (but do understand why). The reality is that most of the people who would be interested in this don’t really come to this subforum. That wont stop me (and a few others) from continuing to champion this cause, however. It really is something Anet needs to see.

Blaeys.3102:

Absurdo.8309:

Blaeys.3102:

Absurdo.8309:

Finally, your solution isn’t anything like teq. Usually, if you can get to the first burn phase, you beat the boss. Also I never see groups say “let’s only go for the first chest guys! The others are too hard.” The first three chests are pity rewards. You get pity shards in raids for failures too.

---

I was speaking only about the chest reward system from Tequatl – which was a bit obvious (again, I think people are stretching to come up with criticisms).

You can’t look at the reward system in isolation.

The fact is, almost no maps fail teq if they can reach the first burn phase.

When talking specifically about reward structures, of course you can look at it in isolation (again, you’re stretching).

And, it most definitely wasn’t always the case that the fight was a guaranteed win after phase 1. The intermittent chests were there to reward stepping stone efforts and encourage continued efforts (the same as they would be in raids – while also giving less dedicated players a way to enjoy the content).

And yes, magnetite shards do this to a tiny degree, but that doesn’t mean the system I outline wouldn’t work (again, using a faulty analogy to stretch your argument). The point has more to do with enabling a training or easy mode with minimal reward to encourage people to participate (and, in the process, learn to raid and possibly move to improve in the pursuit of gold, deepening the pool of hardcore raiders – all while justifying more developer resources toward the game mode).

It really is a win-win. And, I really do think you are stretching a lot in some of the arguments.

Also, I know I’m fighting against the tide here on these forums. I really hate that Anet keeps moving any of these discussions to raiding subforum (but do understand why). The reality is that most of the people who would be interested in this don’t really come to this subforum. That wont stop me (and a few others) from continuing to champion this cause, however. It really is something Anet needs to see.

This is a pretty odd hill to make your stand on.

Backtracking a bit: You purpose a certain type of reward system for raids. You claim that the reward system is not unprecedented, citing teq. I respond with several criticisms, including how your proposed system is not like the one in teq at all. You reply that I need to look at the system “in isolation.”

Ok…

First, if you’re citing the teq reward system in support of your argument, it’s valid to analyze how that system works for teq. In essence, you’re saying: “This system would work great for raids, but don’t look at how well it works for other content!”

But I’ll look at the teq system “in isolation:” (as much as I can)
- It has a hard enrage timer: fail to kill the boss, and you lose
- The rewards are the same no matter how fast you beat it (before enrage)
- The system rewards fails with something
- The best rewards are heavily rated towards success

… this sounds a lot like the raid system.

And, of course, in practise:
- The system does not encourage maps to split between easy and hard versions
- If a map reaches the first reward tier, then 95% of the time they’ll beat teq

Your system is far from a win-win — it’s a lose-lose.

For raiders: Group requirements become more stringent, because everyone wants gold
For non-raiders: they can’t get bronze anyway, because timers do not cause wipes. Mechanics do.

I’ve tried to consistently address the merits of your views. In response, all I get are claims of bias or that my arguments are weak. This is not the type of discussion that you seem to call for.

Finally, I would be careful about white-knighting. You run the risk that you’re arguing for no one.

Absurdo.8309:

Finally, I would be careful about white-knighting. When run the risk that you’re arguing for no one.

It is interesting how this is a much different discussion on Reddit or even in the general GW2 subforum (prior to being moved) than it is here on the raiding subforum.

More directly to the point, however, I think we are both a little blinded by our perspective on this topic – and neither is going to change his mind.

But, I do take issue with the idea that I am the only person wanting something like this, which is provably untrue (again, you are stretching), especially if you look outside this subforum (and take into account the people who have given up on the discussion after being browbeaten and even threatened).

You also claim that I ignore your counterpoints (which I don’t ignore – I just usually disagree with) – while at the same time telling my argument is weak, unsupported or worse. Respect that people have different opinions – and that those opinions are based heavily on their own perspective. I know mine is.

What I see in game – what I hear from my guildees, from people online and others in the game (some of whom have reached out to specifically ask me to continue the points in this thread) – is that they are not happy with the current raiding model in the game right now. While that may not be a huge group in itself, I do feel it is representative of a decent enough percentage of the playerbase to keep the dialogue open and continuing.

Blaeys.3102:

Absurdo.8309:

Finally, I would be careful about white-knighting. When run the risk that you’re arguing for no one.

It is interesting how this is a much different discussion on Reddit or even in the general GW2 subforum (prior to being moved) than it is here on the raiding subforum.

More directly to the point, however, I think we are both a little blinded by our perspective on this topic – and neither is going to change his mind.

But, I do take issue with the idea that I am the only person wanting something like this, which is provably untrue (again, you are stretching), especially if you look outside this subforum (and take into account the people who have given up on the discussion after being browbeaten and even threatened).

You also claim that I ignore your counterpoints (which I don’t ignore – I just usually disagree with) – while at the same time telling my argument is weak, unsupported or worse. Respect that people have different opinions – and that those opinions are based heavily on their own perspective. I know mine is.

What I see in game – what I hear from my guildees, from people online and others in the game (some of whom have reached out to specifically ask me to continue the points in this thread) – is that they are not happy with the current raiding model in the game right now. While that may not be a huge group in itself, I do feel it is representative of a decent enough percentage of the playerbase to keep the dialogue open and continuing.

Honestly, I know I’m not going to change your mind. I’m more worried about other players or Anet taking your ideas seriously.

I’ll agree though that continuing this particular discussion is not productive. Despite your calls for a dialog (again), it’s clear that you just want to post your ideas and then peace out (that is, not discuss them at all).

That’s fine. I’ll just let my counterpoints stand on their own then.

Absurdo.8309:

Blaeys.3102:

Absurdo.8309:

Finally, I would be careful about white-knighting. When run the risk that you’re arguing for no one.

It is interesting how this is a much different discussion on Reddit or even in the general GW2 subforum (prior to being moved) than it is here on the raiding subforum.

More directly to the point, however, I think we are both a little blinded by our perspective on this topic – and neither is going to change his mind.

But, I do take issue with the idea that I am the only person wanting something like this, which is provably untrue (again, you are stretching), especially if you look outside this subforum (and take into account the people who have given up on the discussion after being browbeaten and even threatened).

You also claim that I ignore your counterpoints (which I don’t ignore – I just usually disagree with) – while at the same time telling my argument is weak, unsupported or worse. Respect that people have different opinions – and that those opinions are based heavily on their own perspective. I know mine is.

What I see in game – what I hear from my guildees, from people online and others in the game (some of whom have reached out to specifically ask me to continue the points in this thread) – is that they are not happy with the current raiding model in the game right now. While that may not be a huge group in itself, I do feel it is representative of a decent enough percentage of the playerbase to keep the dialogue open and continuing.

Honestly, I know I’m not going to change your mind. I’m more worried about other players or Anet taking your ideas seriously.

I’ll agree though that continuing this particular discussion is not productive. Despite your calls for a dialog (again), it’s clear that you just want to post your ideas and then peace out (that is, not discuss them at all).

That’s fine. I’ll just let my counterpoints stand on their own then.

After 15+ pages, I’ve responded to many counterpoints and defended the concept of varied difficulty raids (which isn’t solely my idea – that is a little misleading and disingenuous of you to say) many times. And, I think some good points in favor have definitely been made (and not just by me).

What I try not to respond to are posts or comments that attack the person posting rather than the ideas – which is a fairly common practice here. If I did that, this thread would be 3 times the length it is now.

I also think you are making some misleading statements here intended to derail the thread and invalidate legitimate opinions. Whether a change is made or not, of course Anet should be paying attention. People on all sides of this argument have made some really good points. Making a statement like “I hope they aren’t listening to you” is just belittling and ridiculous.

Blaeys.3102:

I also think you are making some misleading statements here intended to derail the thread and invalidate legitimate opinions. Whether a change is made or not, of course Anet should be paying attention. People on all sides of this argument have made some really good points. Making a statement like “I hope they aren’t listening to you” is just belittling and ridiculous.

You have easy mode VG in BSF and will be getting an easy mode Sloth in RoF. How much more attention does anet need to give you before it sinks in. They aren’t going to change raids for the complaining crowd when they are successful for the intended target audiences.

TexZero.7910:

Blaeys.3102:

I also think you are making some misleading statements here intended to derail the thread and invalidate legitimate opinions. Whether a change is made or not, of course Anet should be paying attention. People on all sides of this argument have made some really good points. Making a statement like “I hope they aren’t listening to you” is just belittling and ridiculous.

You have easy mode VG in BSF and will be getting an easy mode Sloth in RoF. How much more attention does anet need to give you before it sinks in. They aren’t going to change raids for the complaining crowd when they are successful for the intended target audiences.

Taking the cosmetic appearance of a raid boss and using it on an open world boss doesn’t make the second a raid encounter. That is a weak argument and one that I think even the people making it don’t really believe (and actually comes across a little condescending).

People realize the reason raids were originally developed. Anet made that very clear. That doesn’t mean there isn’t room for expansion of/improvements on (in some’s opinion) that idea. It isn’t about complaining – it’s about discussing potential ideas for raiding in the game – specifically extending the game mode to include more playstyles and skill levels.

Blaeys.3102:

After 15+ pages, I’ve responded to many counterpoints and defended the concept of varied difficulty raids (which isn’t solely my idea – that is a little misleading and disingenuous of you to say) many times. And, I think some good points in favor have definitely been made (and not just by me).

What I try not to respond to are posts or comments that attack the person posting rather than the ideas – which is a fairly common practice here. If I did that, this thread would be 3 times the length it is now.

I also think you are making some misleading statements here intended to derail the thread and invalidate legitimate opinions. Whether a change is made or not, of course Anet should be paying attention. People on all sides of this argument have made some really good points. Making a statement like “I hope they aren’t listening to you” is just belittling and ridiculous.

What comments have I made that have been misleading?

As much fun as is it is to spar with you, this thread is no longer productive. The mods should close it.

This thread hasn’t been a discussion for a long time. Here’s a summary of recent events:

1. You reopen a week-old thread with no new commentary.

2. I ask for clarification on one of your comments

3. You propose a training raid or a gold/silver/bronze timer based reward system. You also propose an open world system where content gets progressively harder.

4. I offer two criticisms of your timer based reward scheme. I offer 6 criticisms of your new map scheme.

5. You respond to 0 of these arguments. You claim that your system could help with content droughts.

6. I think it would take longer to release everything under your system

7. You think that content designed for everyone would reduce droughts. You think that common experiences, like fractal scales, should be valued.

8. I think that common experiences across difficulty are a negative, because I don’t play easy and hard versions of the exact same content.

9. You argue that the teq reward system is like your timer based reward system. You think that a lack of survival gear wipes raid groups.

10. I ask point-blank why you think timers cause wipes. I offer five criticisms of your suggestion.

11. You don’t respond to any arguments. You clarify your analogy to the teq reward system

12. I respond that the teq reward system is nothing like the timer based system you propose

13. You double-down on the teq reward system

14. I respond that the teq system is similar to the current raid system. I respond that the teq system does not encourage easy/hard modes in practise.

15. You respond to zero arguments, while simultaneously claiming that you don’t ignore them.

You can post ideas, sure. After this long, they’ve been fleshed out. But don’t pretend this is a discussion. You necro’ed a dead thread, and then failed to discuss anything.

Blaeys.3102:

TexZero.7910:

Blaeys.3102:

I also think you are making some misleading statements here intended to derail the thread and invalidate legitimate opinions. Whether a change is made or not, of course Anet should be paying attention. People on all sides of this argument have made some really good points. Making a statement like “I hope they aren’t listening to you” is just belittling and ridiculous.

You have easy mode VG in BSF and will be getting an easy mode Sloth in RoF. How much more attention does anet need to give you before it sinks in. They aren’t going to change raids for the complaining crowd when they are successful for the intended target audiences.

Taking the cosmetic appearance of a raid boss and using it on an open world boss doesn’t make the second a raid encounter. That is a weak argument and one that I think even the people making it don’t really believe (and actually comes across a little condescending).

People realize the reason raids were originally developed. Anet made that very clear. That doesn’t mean there isn’t room for expansion of/improvements on (in some’s opinion) that idea. It isn’t about complaining – it’s about discussing potential ideas for raiding in the game – specifically extending the game mode to include more playstyles and skill levels.

You keep saying broaden the appeal, make it easier, more accessible. That is exactly what they are doing when they port raid bosses and their mechanics in a watered down state to the open world. You’ve gotten your wish. If you don’t like it, you and whoever else feels that way can always you know….Go raid.

TexZero.7910:

Blaeys.3102:

TexZero.7910:

Blaeys.3102:

I also think you are making some misleading statements here intended to derail the thread and invalidate legitimate opinions. Whether a change is made or not, of course Anet should be paying attention. People on all sides of this argument have made some really good points. Making a statement like “I hope they aren’t listening to you” is just belittling and ridiculous.

You have easy mode VG in BSF and will be getting an easy mode Sloth in RoF. How much more attention does anet need to give you before it sinks in. They aren’t going to change raids for the complaining crowd when they are successful for the intended target audiences.

Taking the cosmetic appearance of a raid boss and using it on an open world boss doesn’t make the second a raid encounter. That is a weak argument and one that I think even the people making it don’t really believe (and actually comes across a little condescending).

People realize the reason raids were originally developed. Anet made that very clear. That doesn’t mean there isn’t room for expansion of/improvements on (in some’s opinion) that idea. It isn’t about complaining – it’s about discussing potential ideas for raiding in the game – specifically extending the game mode to include more playstyles and skill levels.

You keep saying broaden the appeal, make it easier, more accessible. That is exactly what they are doing when they port raid bosses and their mechanics in a watered down state to the open world. You’ve gotten your wish. If you don’t like it, you and whoever else feels that way can always you know….Go raid.

They didn’t port anything. They took the cosmetics and similar mechanics (but definitely not the same) of the fight and put it on an open world encounter. It was well done, but it wasn’t a raid encounter. This argument doesn’t hold water (and again, along with language like “if you don’t like it, then …” is very condescending). There can be a human boss in a raid – that doesn’t mean every human boss in the game is a raid clone (or vice versa).

I do raid, lead raids actually – multiple nights a week. Before GW2, I led raids(10 and 25 man) seven nights a week progression style for 6 years in WoW (with some world firsts, even). I know what raids are. I know what they bring to the game.

I also know that it is very possible to create multiple difficulty tiers without killing the difficulty of top end raids. It is possible to broaden the experience without killing the experience of those choosing to tackle the biggest challenges. It is possible to offer multiple experiences in the same content without making that content boring or unrewarding.

I know these things because a. they are common sense, and b. MANY MANY other raiding games have done this successfully in the past. It is kind of ironic, in fact, that the one game that prides itself on community focus and accessibility is pretty much the only raiding game on the market to not offer this option. I don’t believe it would be hard for them to do it – and I believe they will eventually see this (if they haven’t already).

To Absurdo – I have addressed almost all of your points in one way or another – you just have to go back to the first times you made them, rather than the 5th or six time you repeated them. Repeating the same questions over and over and then claiming no one responds to them EVERY single time is misleading. You may not have agreed with my responses (and others – again, not just me), but they are there. What I wont respond to any more are continued comments that try to make it personal – things like saying someone’s guild is bad because they don’t raid or that people aren’t playing the game right, etc. Let’s get past the obvious attempts to derail the thread and continue the real discussion.

Blaeys.3102:

Repeating the same questions over and over and then claiming no one responds to them EVERY single time is misleading. You may not have agreed with my responses (and others – again, not just me), but they are there. What I wont respond to any more are continued comments that try to make it personal – things like saying someone’s guild is bad because they don’t raid or that people aren’t playing the game right, etc. Let’s get past the obvious attempts to derail the thread and continue the real discussion.

Denying and not realizing the problems/difficulties your ideas have brought up over and over is also misleading and resulting in a dead end.
Nothing went personal this page or the one before so it’s not fair to repeat that again and again. It’s your wish to have an ongoing discussion but let’s face it: We haven’t seen anything new that has to be discussed. Threads are not there to be bumped frequently to hope for an Anet dev will take action due to reading it some day because it belongs to the first threads in a subforum.
Absurdo is right with his statement:

Absurdo.8309:

You necro’ed a dead thread, and then failed to discuss anything.

Blaeys.3102:

Let’s get past the obvious attempts to derail the thread and continue the real discussion.

And please tell me what discussion that is when you are unwilling to listen or accept anyone’s views but your own and have only your WoW experience to boast about ?

People time and time again have come here and tried to reason with you and have a civil discourse in which you interject with your personal opinion and try to rationalize it as a fact. When it gets discussed you become utterly dismissive and tell them to return to the discussion….

So please steer the ship captain. What is it you wish to objectively sit down here and discuss today ?

Blaeys.3102:

snip

Dude, your viewpoint is full of so many contradictions it’s a flip-floppity pancake.

Just let it go. We’re all cool here

Absurdo.8309:

As much fun as is it is to spar with you, this thread is no longer productive. The mods should close it.

This thread hasn’t been a discussion for a long time.

I already wrote down my points yet none of them have been countered. If you want to provide a meaningful discussion here they are:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Different-Raid-Difficulty-Would-Satisfy-Most/page/13#post6279439

Also to add new things to consider:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Resource Allocation

ANet has cautioned posters in similar threads not to assume that adding different difficulty would be a trivial programming task. Until they say otherwise, a development house that is trying to push out regular content on a sustainable release schedule to avoid the so-called content droughts cannot afford the resources to make varying degrees of difficulty for every bit of PvE content they create.

This is true, but since neither side has no idea what it would take to create one no matter what trivial the solution may sound, can’t be really used as an argument by neither side.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Splitting the Player-Base

While raids do create a split, that split already existed, it was just focused around dungeons. Splitting the raid-interested player-base and the open PvE-interested player base is something else entirely.

First of all, what you only consider here is PUGs, since the way static groups run the content has no effect on anyone else. Saying this Anet already said PUGs aren’t the main target of raids, they shouldn’t be the main thing to consider if we apply changes.

Secondly, I don’t really see how adding new raids wouldn’t create this split you refer to. An average PUG player only kills so many boss a week, I doubt the majority of them kills them all. Considering this adding new bosses most likely won’t raise the average weekly kill count of a PUG player meaning the current playerbase splits between different bosses. Far into the future , if the current raid population doesn’t increase, which if there won’t be changes is doubtful, it won’t be able to support several raids as it can now one.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Rewards

Splitting raids (or open world PvE) into difficulty modes begs the question of whether the rewards are:

1. Completely different (even more work for ANet);
2. The same, but allocated differently according to difficulty. This is a very delicate balancing act that does not have a solution that would please those wanting easier and those wanting harder; or
3. Making the easier mode offer very little in the way of carrots. Since you want to point to story mode dungeons, the lesson there is that producing content that does not offer (perceived as) good rewards just does not get repeated as much as MMO content needs to be to justify its creation.

Rewards are one of the main factors people keep playing the game/game modes. I find it a lot more absurd to suggest a content should offer no reward at all than suggesting it should offer less in quantity than a harder version. Saying this personally I don’t care how ,but if they do decide to make difficulty settings, lower ones should be worth repeating as much as harder ones . Obviously the easier solution is not to create any kind of new reward , but offer less than it is now, however this is what I see people taking issue with (I did offer an alternate solution a little way back).

Personally I don’t care if others are able to get everything I can , since considering the Legendary Armor only, it looks like creating a set of this takes a LOT of resources , they’ve been working on it for around a year now and yet we still can’t preview it. I don’t find it reasonable to ask the non-raiders to wait till they finnish this one god’s know when, then wait at least another year until you can have a long term reward as rewarding as the raiders had for about two year.

You guys pro-easy mode keep bringing the same arguments, thats is proven fail by yourselves, when people say that VG in BSF is that, you say that it dont have the same mechanic ? So lets compare its mechanic lets see.
Blue circles ? Match. Green Circle ? Match. CC VG when he does its aoe attack? Match.
Seekers ? Match. The only thing that it doesnt have is the glowing damage ground.
The difference between the two are the one in BSF does little to no damage and you can ignore most mechanics ( but you still see a lot of people going down ). So this is the easy mode, and you say you dont want it? Make your mind people, you want easy mode but you dont want it when you got it.
In the end of day its crystal clear that you want the current rewards of the raid, not an easy mode. Stop lying to yourself.

TexZero.7910:

What is it you wish to objectively sit down here and discuss today ?

I’m very willing to listen to everyone’s point of view, as long as it is about the topic and not about me (or any other poster) directly. That, imo, is more often an obvious attempt to derail the thread than anything else (some really good examples of that on this page – calling people liars, generalizations about groups of people, making assumptions about how or why they play, etc).

So, minimizing the personal comments and insults, let’s have a real discussion and let’s make it real basic -

1. What is your single biggest objection to multiple difficulties in raids?
-
2. Would it be possible – in any way – for ArenaNet to implement tiered difficulties in a way you would be comfortable with? If not, why not. If so, what would that look like?
-
3. Would you have a problem with tiered difficulties existing if they did not change the way they develop/have any impact on the current tier of difficulty whatsoever (eg, didn’t add to development time, didn’t share the same rewards, etc)? (purely hypothetical)
-
4. Would you be interested in very challenging content outside of raids – including fractals, living story, etc? If so, what would that look like?
-
I have to get some actual work done this afternoon – and head out of the office for some errands/lunch – but feel free to answer (or not) and ask me (and others) a few basic questions (keeping them friendly and free of implied insults, of course). I’ll get back to them and show you the respect you (and anyone else willing to put the effort into expressing their opinion on these forums) deserves. It would probably be a good exercise to get the discussion back on track.

Scipio.3204:

Absurdo.8309:

As much fun as is it is to spar with you, this thread is no longer productive. The mods should close it.

This thread hasn’t been a discussion for a long time.

I already wrote down my points yet none of them have been countered. If you want to provide a meaningful discussion here they are:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Different-Raid-Difficulty-Would-Satisfy-Most/page/13#post6279439

OK.

I’ll attempt to summarize your points:
1. There’s currently no long term goals in HOT
2. People would raid more if they could practice the mechanics
3. Raid population is shrinking (because people already have their LI’s / will have legendary armor)

There are some good observations in here, but I’m not sure how that translates to easy mode raids:

1. Accepting this premise as true, that does not mean there should be an easy mode. In fact, beating raids can be a long term goal for some players
2. I’m not sure this is true. Most raids ramp up in mechanics, allowing groups to overcome them before encountering a harder version. There’s nothing stopping anyone from practicing right now
3. I agree that raid rewards should have a second look. Especially with repeating a boss later in the week. That doesn’t lead to easy mode raids though

I think that the players that don’t like raids, just don’t like raids. That’s ok. The solution is develop other content that fits their needs too. Trying to develop a one-size-fits-all solution seems more likely to disappoint everyone.

Blaeys.3102:

1. What is your single biggest objection to multiple difficulties in raids?
-
2. Would it be possible – in any way – for ArenaNet to implement tiered difficulties in a way you would be comfortable with? If not, why not. If so, what would that look like?
-
3. Would you have a problem with tiered difficulties existing if they did not change the way they develop/have any impact on the current tier of difficulty whatsoever (eg, didn’t add to development time, didn’t share the same rewards, etc)? (purely hypothetical)
-
4. Would you be interested in very challenging content outside of raids – including fractals, living story, etc? If so, what would that look like?
-

1) Multiple difficulties not only undermines the objective goal of raids, but their design. Additionally, they eventually long-term end up segregating communities and causing divisive design goals that limit how complex and challenging mechanics can be due to having to be watered down at the low end.

2) Not with any of the proposed methods in this thread, and none that are ultimately a realistic design choice for any aspect of gameplay.

3) Loaded question with an impossible answer because anyone can tell you, you’re asking for the impossible. If they have to make more, that means more time and resources being spent. So lets not pull the in a vacuum or perfect world scenario questions and stick to the realistic scope. Man power doesn’t come out of thin air and isn’t free.

4) Im all for more 5 man challenging content, fractals have proven they can do this. Unfortunately the same adverse to change and hard content crowd is now complaining over the changes to them as well. Other aspects of play should remain as is. They (Open world and Living story) are intentionally designed for the majority of the population.

OnizukaBR.8537:

You guys pro-easy mode keep bringing the same arguments, thats is proven fail by yourselves, when people say that VG in BSF is that, you say that it dont have the same mechanic ? So lets compare its mechanic lets see.
Blue circles ? Match. Green Circle ? Match.

So, if it’s the same color, it means the mechanic is the same? Oh, the irony…

OnizukaBR.8537:

CC VG when he does its aoe attack? Match.

Actually, he is being cc-ed throughout the whole encounter about equally, you just can’t see it when his breakbar is not up. And not-ccing has no real effects, i have seen that aoe attack of him time out with the bar merely halfway several times already.

OnizukaBR.8537:

Seekers ? Match.

That’s likely the only real match in the whole encounter. Nobody notices them anyway in the big sfx cloud around the boss.

OnizukaBR.8537:

The difference between the two are the one in BSF does little to no damage and you can ignore most mechanics ( but you still see a lot of people going down ). So this is the easy mode, and you say you dont want it?

Haven’t seen it giving out raid rewards, legendary armor progress or even unlocking raid mastery, so yeah… no dice.

OnizukaBR.8537:

In the end of day its crystal clear that you want the current rewards of the raid, not an easy mode.

Yes, i want the easy mode mostly because it would be the simplest way to opening those rewards (specifically: legendary armor) to the community. As well as introducing a set of new instances that could take place of the already old and well-known dungeons/fractals and become something i could play with my friends in. Never said otherwise.

Give me another path to a legendary armor and a set of new dungeons (at the past dungeon/fractal difficulty level, not at the difficulty of raids, or annoyance of t4 swamp), and i will shut up about easy mode. But until that happens, i’ll be asking for an option i feel is more likely to be done (because it would require less effort on Anet’s part).

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Again you are making unfounded claims that it would be less effort to change mechanics/difficulty when it comes to raids. It’s not a simple copy paste like you make it out to be.

Never said it would be a simple copy-paste. But even if they had to redo the whole mechanics completely, it would still end up being less work than doing new mechanics in addition to all the other things that would not need to be changed in the easy mode case, like the all graphical assets.

Seriously, even in case of Chaos fractal, that was reusing assets from all the previously existing fractal instances, putting it all together was a non-zero work. And yet some people claim with a straight face, that it’s exactly that (because saying that changing mechanics in already existing instance would require as much work as making a new one is saying just this – that only mechanics require any work, and everything else is a nonissue).

Astralporing.1957:

OnizukaBR.8537:

You guys pro-easy mode keep bringing the same arguments, thats is proven fail by yourselves, when people say that VG in BSF is that, you say that it dont have the same mechanic ? So lets compare its mechanic lets see.
Blue circles ? Match. Green Circle ? Match.

So, if it’s the same color, it means the mechanic is the same? Oh, the irony…

OnizukaBR.8537:

CC VG when he does its aoe attack? Match.

Actually, he is being cc-ed throughout the whole encounter about equally, you just can’t see it when his breakbar is not up. And not-ccing has no real effects, i have seen that aoe attack of him time out with the bar merely halfway several times already.

OnizukaBR.8537:

Seekers ? Match.

That’s likely the only real match in the whole encounter. Nobody notices them anyway in the big sfx cloud around the boss.

OnizukaBR.8537:

The difference between the two are the one in BSF does little to no damage and you can ignore most mechanics ( but you still see a lot of people going down ). So this is the easy mode, and you say you dont want it?

Haven’t seen it giving out raid rewards, legendary armor progress or even unlocking raid mastery, so yeah… no dice.

OnizukaBR.8537:

In the end of day its crystal clear that you want the current rewards of the raid, not an easy mode.

Yes, i want the easy mode mostly because it would be the simplest way to opening those rewards (specifically: legendary armor) to the community. As well as introducing a set of new instances that could take place of the already old and well-known dungeons/fractals and become something i could play with my friends in. Never said otherwise.

Give me another path to a legendary armor and a set of new dungeons (at the past dungeon/fractal difficulty level, not at the difficulty of raids, or annoyance of t4 swamp), and i will shut up about easy mode. But until that happens, i’ll be asking for an option i feel is more likely to be done (because it would require less effort on Anet’s part).

Again you are making unfounded claims that it would be less effort to change mechanics/difficulty when it comes to raids. It’s not a simple copy paste like you make it out to be. Kinda reminds me of another poster that Anet told not to make such claims…

(cd, to avoid a big post)

TexZero.7910:

1) Multiple difficulties not only undermines the objective goal of raids

Nope. Easy mode raids would have a different objective, that’s true, but the objective of normal/hard mode ones would remain completely unchanged.

TexZero.7910:

Additionally, they eventually long-term end up segregating communities

That is already happening. Due to existence of Raids. You don’t seem to have any problem with that, so forgive me if i look at this argument with suspicion.

TexZero.7910:

If they have to make more, that means more time and resources being spent.

That’s true for any different content they might make as well – and making an easy mode of an already existing raid happens to require far less effort than making a completely different content from scratch.

TexZero.7910:

4) Im all for more 5 man challenging content, fractals have proven they can do this. Unfortunately the same adverse to change and hard content crowd is now complaining over the changes to them as well.

…of course they are complaining. If they’d be okay with making current fractal content more difficult, they wouldn’t be asking for making raid content easier and more accessible, would they. Currently, instead of opening new content for players disappointed with raids being too restrictive, anet is taking away the content that already existed. If anything, this will only make the need for easy mode even greater.

TexZero.7910

1) Multiple difficulties not only undermines the objective goal of raids, but their design. Additionally, they eventually long-term end up segregating communities and causing divisive design goals that limit how complex and challenging mechanics can be due to having to be watered down at the low end.

2) Not with any of the proposed methods in this thread, and none that are ultimately a realistic design choice for any aspect of gameplay.

3) Loaded question with an impossible answer because anyone can tell you, you’re asking for the impossible. If they have to make more, that means more time and resources being spent. So lets not pull the in a vacuum or perfect world scenario questions and stick to the realistic scope. Man power doesn’t come out of thin air and isn’t free.

4) Im all for more 5 man challenging content, fractals have proven they can do this. Unfortunately the same adverse to change and hard content crowd is now complaining over the changes to them as well. Other aspects of play should remain as is. They (Open world and Living story) are intentionally designed for the majority of the population.

Thank you for both the response and the productive tone/answers.

I admit the one question was a bit loaded. I promise I wasn’t trying to bait you into a response. I was trying to determine to what level the objection is more objective ( ) vs emotional. I think you answered that well in your other responses.

I think your answer to the first question really deserves more discussion – among everyone, because I think it probably gets to the heart of why there is so much disagreement around this topic.

You talk about the objective goals of raiding – and their design. While I agree that the objective goal the developers had in mind was solely to provide challenging content, I don’t believe that it should be the only goal. The reason I don’t believe that is because I think there has always been overarching goal that GW2 has tried to attain to – to be more inclusive and community focused than other MMOs. With the introduction of raids, for many people those two goals came into conflict (especially for people like me who lead large fairly casual guilds).

I think raiding could be a part of that bigger picture without disrupting the challenging experience that meets the objective goal you describe. Was this part of the dev’s original plan? Obviously not based on their statements. But, that doesn’t mean they cannot evolve. Again, we have seen this in many other games with raids.

Let’s make raids a real part of the narrative – a real link in the GW2 development chain with the same importance and level of support we see for fractals or living story or WvW. But, to justify that, there has to be greater appeal. They really need to fit more with the implied goal/position of the game itself, which I don’t not currently feel they do. I think they can do that without removing the challenge (which I really want as well, btw – I even think they are probably a bit too easy for top level raiders).

I don’t want raids to fail. I don’t want challenging content to go away. I simply feel raids, as they are designed, aren’t really sustainable in this game. With some work – namely, extending the appeal (again, as other MMOs have done) – that can be remedied and we will have a stronger more appealing game for it.

Again, thank you for taking the time to humor me on this. I realize you and I disagree with one another. Let’s have a discussion about those disagreements (as you have definitely done above) rather than just argue (which is what much of this thread has devolved into).

Astralporing.1957:

(cd, to avoid a big post)

Nope. Easy mode raids would have a different objective, that’s true, but the objective of normal/hard mode ones would remain completely unchanged.

That is already happening. Due to existence of Raids. You don’t seem to have any problem with that, so forgive me if i look at this argument with suspicion.

That’s true for any different content they might make as well – and making an easy mode of an already existing raid happens to require far less effort than making a completely different content from scratch.

..of course they are complaining. If they’d be okay with making current fractal content more difficult, they wouldn’t be asking for making raid content easier and more accessible, would they. Currently, instead of opening new content for players disappointed with raids being too restrictive, anet is taking away the content that already existed. If anything, this will only make the need for easy mode even greater.

…I dont even man.

Raids specific goal is to be challenging end game content. By having multiple modes you are giving up any desire for them to be challenging. You are instead choosing to water down the experience in favor of getting more people through the ride instead of creating the best ride you can.

I entirely disagree. Those who want to raid, can and will. It’s been proven to death. Those that don’t for whatever reason they chose don’t. Changing the content to cater to them will only break communities up further. Hence one mode of play is better than 15 modes of play as it consolidates the players in 1 spot.

This is an insincere statement to make, you’re not a gameplay designer and have no idea how long the pipeline would be for toning raids down to a level deemed acceptable to warrant an easy mode, nor can you give us the specifics required to know what the timeline is for a raid created from scratch.

They aren’t taking away any content. This is the most disingenuous statement you could have possibly made. Even more so considering you’re “pro easy mode” stance. Tier 1-3 still exist. T4 has had its difficulty increased and people are complaining that the hard end of fractals is now “too hard”. This is the same problem that will befall raids if they attempt to create a modular environment.

Absurdo.8309:

1. Accepting this premise as true, that does not mean there should be an easy mode. In fact, beating raids can be a long term goal for some players

That wouldn’t stop however. I do believe if fractals had the T4 version only a lot less people would run them altogether, because introduction to a certain type of content matters a lot.

Every time I see a raid discussion bought up on reddit, I see a lot of people being discouraged to even try them because of what others tell about raids. Having options would mean they also could have the long term goal of clearing the current one.

Absurdo.8309:

2. People would raid more if they could practice the mechanics

2. I’m not sure this is true. Most raids ramp up in mechanics, allowing groups to overcome them before encountering a harder version. There’s nothing stopping anyone from practicing right now

That point is more like “Less people would stop raiding”. In short if people crack his head against a brick wall for too long without succeeding, eventually they would back out. I saw this happening a lot. If people had the chance to crack his head against lets say a wood wall and have a sense of accomplishment that way he will more likely try the brick wall again.

Absurdo.8309:

3. I agree that raid rewards should have a second look. Especially with repeating a boss later in the week. That doesn’t lead to easy mode raids though

That is not the conclusion I drew. On first time clearing if you are in a decent group raids currently award more than any other content in the same timeframe. On the top of that: exclusives , chances at ascended and a sure way to build a full ascended. I don’t see increasing the rewards as the way for drawing in more people. Only those will raid who raided before.

As for increasing the rewards on second round, that is as delicate topic as this is. I don’t see what rewards you can add on second clears that will motivate an average raider to do it again without turning raids into a grindfest. Considering top guilds are able to clear all three wings close to a hour , what should they be able to earn at top, but still enough to motivate others? But still, this is a different topic

In short, I don’t believe increasing the rewards within a reasonable frame will do anything with the problem of long term raiding population. And wether this issue is solved with easy mode or not, this is a valid concern. Looking at the LFG (the only thing we can look at) I don’t think the number of people we have now can and will be able to support let’s say 4 raids with as many bosses as this one have. And I’m already afraid about the popularity of the second raid if it will have the LI as the main motivator.

Blaeys.3102:

1. What is your single biggest objection to multiple difficulties in raids?
-
2. Would it be possible – in any way – for ArenaNet to implement tiered difficulties in a way you would be comfortable with? If not, why not. If so, what would that look like?
-
3. Would you have a problem with tiered difficulties existing if they did not change the way they develop/have any impact on the current tier of difficulty whatsoever (eg, didn’t add to development time, didn’t share the same rewards, etc)? (purely hypothetical)
-
4. Would you be interested in very challenging content outside of raids – including fractals, living story, etc? If so, what would that look like?
-

Before answering these questions, I think we need to go even more basic. Why does this content need to be easy?

I’ll note that easy modes are not the norm in Guild Wars 2. Most content has a single difficulty mode. That includes: open world, world bosses, dungeons, and raids. Content that does have an mode is: fractals, SAB, guild missions, and adventures.

And to answer your questions:

1. I know you asked for one objection, but these two weigh equally in my mind
1a. There is no need for easy mode raids because there’s tons of easier content, and anet continues to produce easy content
1b. Easy mode raids would split the raiding player base. That is, it works be harder to find a group for normal mode.

2. No, for the reasons mentioned above

3. If it didn’t affect the current raids, (including the pool of players to play with), then I would not be opposed to easier versions. I’ll note that I think unbound guardian is a solution to this question, and I support more like it.

4. Yes. But I support easier versions too, as long as it’s not the exact same content. I like the variety between escort and matthias, or new swamp and molten duo, or cof and arah.

TexZero.7910

Raids specific goal is to be challenging end game content. By having multiple modes you are giving up any desire for them to be challenging.

As i said before, don’t call the easy mode raids then if that is the source of your disagreement. Call them Raids (current mode) and Explorations (easy mode). Raids would still remain challenging then.

TexZero.7910

You are instead choosing to water down the experience in favor of getting more people through the ride instead of creating the best ride you can.

That’s the point. The current situation creates the best ride for you – but not for many other players.

TexZero.7910

Changing the content to cater to them will only break communities up further. Hence one mode of play is better than 15 modes of play as it consolidates the players in 1 spot.

Fine. Have it your way. Remove Raids then, that will consolidate players even better.

TexZero.7910

This is an insincere statement to make, you’re not a gameplay designer and have no idea how long the pipeline would be for toning raids down to a level deemed acceptable to warrant an easy mode, nor can you give us the specifics required to know what the timeline is for a raid created from scratch.

I don’t need to be. I do know that A+B is always bigger than just A however as long as B is greater than zero. Here, B (the stuff they would have to do when making a new instance, but wouldn’t have to do creating an easy mode out of already existing one) is greater than zero.

TexZero.7910

They aren’t taking away any content. This is the most disingenuous statement you could have possibly made. Even more so considering you’re “pro easy mode” stance. Tier 1-3 still exist.

So? I could casually run all the fractals with my friends before, up to level 100. Now, i can’t, Swamp is out, because it’s way too annoying. Even for my raiding friends.

TexZero.7910

T4 has had its difficulty increased and people are complaining that the hard end of fractals is now “too hard”. This is the same problem that will befall raids if they attempt to create a modular environment.

Adding easy mode to raids would create more content for me. Adding T5 to fractals would be sum zero (no new content for me, but no loss either). Making swamp the most difficult fractal (stated dev intention)? That is removing content from the pool that was accessible to me as far as i am concerned. One is not like the other.

Scipio.3204:

Absurdo.8309:

1. Accepting this premise as true, that does not mean there should be an easy mode. In fact, beating raids can be a long term goal for some players

That wouldn’t stop however. I do believe if fractals had the T4 version only a lot less people would run them altogether, because introduction to a certain type of content matters a lot.

Every time I see a raid discussion bought up on reddit, I see a lot of people being discouraged to even try them because of what others tell about raids. Having options would mean they also could have the long term goal of clearing the current one.

Absurdo.8309:

2. People would raid more if they could practice the mechanics

2. I’m not sure this is true. Most raids ramp up in mechanics, allowing groups to overcome them before encountering a harder version. There’s nothing stopping anyone from practicing right now

That point is more like “Less people would stop raiding”. In short if people crack his head against a brick wall for too long without succeeding, eventually they would back out. I saw this happening a lot. If people had the chance to crack his head against lets say a wood wall and have a sense of accomplishment that way he will more likely try the brick wall again.

Absurdo.8309:

3. I agree that raid rewards should have a second look. Especially with repeating a boss later in the week. That doesn’t lead to easy mode raids though

That is not the conclusion I drew. On first time clearing if you are in a decent group raids currently award more than any other content in the same timeframe. On the top of that: exclusives , chances at ascended and a sure way to build a full ascended. I don’t see increasing the rewards as the way for drawing in more people. Only those will raid who raided before.

As for increasing the rewards on second round, that is as delicate topic as this is. I don’t see what rewards you can add on second clears that will motivate an average raider to do it again without turning raids into a grindfest. Considering top guilds are able to clear all three wings close to a hour , what should they be able to earn at top, but still enough to motivate others? But still, this is a different topic

In short, I don’t believe increasing the rewards within a reasonable frame will do anything with the problem of long term raiding population. And wether this issue is solved with easy mode or not, this is a valid concern. Looking at the LFG (the only thing we can look at) I don’t think the number of people we have now can and will be able to support let’s say 4 raids with as many bosses as this one have. And I’m already afraid about the popularity of the second raid if it will have the LI as the main motivator.

I’ll try to boil down your arguments again.

You think that the main barrier to more raiders is that players initially find the content hard, and then give up.

I think the underlying reason is these players simply don’t like hard content. That is, they see the content is hard, decide they don’t like it, and move on.

And that’s fine, of course.

I don’t think an easy mode would produce more raiders. Just more people playing easy mode (and less raiders, since some would shift to this category).

But, there’s tons of easy content, and more in the pipeline. We don’t need an easy mode to satisfy these players.

Plus, there’s a bit of a double standard to the easy mode argument. Raiders don’t demand a hard version of everything.

And, finally, there are already easy mode raids that players can get their feet wet in. Escort and trio.

Astralporing.1957:

]As i said before, don’t call the easy mode raids then if that is the source of your disagreement. Call them Raids (current mode) and Explorations (easy mode). Raids would still remain challenging then.

That’s the point. The current situation creates the best ride for you – but not for many other players.

Fine. Have it your way. Remove Raids then, that will consolidate players even better.

I don’t need to be. I do know that A+B is always bigger than just A however as long as B is greater than zero. Here, B (the stuff they would have to do when making a new instance, but wouldn’t have to do creating an easy mode out of already existing one) is greater than zero.

So? I could casually run all the fractals with my friends before, up to level 100. Now, i can’t, Swamp is out, because it’s way too annoying. Even for my raiding friends.

Adding easy mode to raids would create more content for me. Adding T5 to fractals would be sum zero (no new content for me, but no loss either). Making swamp the most difficult fractal (stated dev intention)? That is removing content from the pool that was accessible to me as far as i am concerned. One is not like the other.

You want a different difficulty of raiding…whatever you choose to call it it’s still raiding. You can try and shift the goal post all you want with that but its not going to work.
Raids are meant to be hard challenging group content. This is why there is no need to design an easier version.

Hello there strawman 1 and 2. I’ll address these although it will likely prove fruitless.
The current state of raids provides the best state and healthiest state of raiding because there is just one mode. Not the best for me as you’d love to think. With only one mode it means the devs can do more complex things and keep the relative skill levels at a rate they feel meets the design goal. If they compromise this then they cannot feasibly do that as it would mean any neat & challenging mechanic would have to be passed over for simplicity sake.

You’ve made the choice with your friends not to run it. That is not the same as the content not being there.

Swamp is still there and you can do the easy mode…yet you’re opting not too. What does that say about raids if you draw the comparison (easy mode is there yet…..unused)

Absurdo.8309:

I’ll try to boil down your arguments again.

You think that the main barrier to more raiders is that players initially find the content hard, and then give up.

I think the underlying reason is these players simply don’t like hard content. That is, they see the content is hard, decide they don’t like it, and move on.

And that’s fine, of course.

That might be true, but something being hard is different for everyone. There is really no other content that requires the coordination like raids , if we add an easier version people who did find the current difficulty too hard for their taste could get enough practice and routine to actually get to a point where they no longer find the current difficulty too hard.

Absurdo.8309:

I don’t think an easy mode would produce more raiders. Just more people playing easy mode (and less raiders, since some would shift to this category).

Probably this will be true in the short term, however I’m certain some who would get tired of easy mode and are capable to do the harder version will do so. But the thing is we have to think long term… or at least I’d prefer to.

If things stay as it is a few years from now on we’ll have around 20-30 raid bosses. If we split the current size of raiding population among these it might prove to be impossible to organize groups to certain bosses , and this doesn’t consider how much will the raiding population shrink in that time (for reasons mentioned in point 3). I’d rather have people running easy than none.

Absurdo.8309:

But, there’s tons of easy content, and more in the pipeline. We don’t need an easy mode to satisfy these players.

But what does a tons content worth if it doesn’t keep people occupied? Current events for example are a thing since this spring, yet the Quarterly reports indicate less people played than ever. Further comments on other content in my first point.

Absurdo.8309:

Plus, there’s a bit of a double standard to the easy mode argument. Raiders don’t demand a hard version of everything.

I guess one of the reasons you can make everything harder without anet’s help, but not easier. You could try to solo lupicus without healing skill and your hands tied back, I imagine that would be harder than anything we have now.

But there’s a lot of more reasons I’d prefer not to list

Absurdo.8309:

And, finally, there are already easy mode raids that players can get their feet wet in. Escort and trio.

I don’t really have anything against that other than trio is locked behind sloth.

Blaeys.3102:

TexZero.7910

1) Multiple difficulties not only undermines the objective goal of raids, but their design. Additionally, they eventually long-term end up segregating communities and causing divisive design goals that limit how complex and challenging mechanics can be due to having to be watered down at the low end.

2) Not with any of the proposed methods in this thread, and none that are ultimately a realistic design choice for any aspect of gameplay.

3) Loaded question with an impossible answer because anyone can tell you, you’re asking for the impossible. If they have to make more, that means more time and resources being spent. So lets not pull the in a vacuum or perfect world scenario questions and stick to the realistic scope. Man power doesn’t come out of thin air and isn’t free.

4) Im all for more 5 man challenging content, fractals have proven they can do this. Unfortunately the same adverse to change and hard content crowd is now complaining over the changes to them as well. Other aspects of play should remain as is. They (Open world and Living story) are intentionally designed for the majority of the population.

Thank you for both the response and the productive tone/answers.

I admit the one question was a bit loaded. I promise I wasn’t trying to bait you into a response. I was trying to determine to what level the objection is more objective ( ) vs emotional. I think you answered that well in your other responses.

I think your answer to the first question really deserves more discussion – among everyone, because I think it probably gets to the heart of why there is so much disagreement around this topic.

You talk about the objective goals of raiding – and their design. While I agree that the objective goal the developers had in mind was solely to provide challenging content, I don’t believe that it should be the only goal. The reason I don’t believe that is because I think there has always been overarching goal that GW2 has tried to attain to – to be more inclusive and community focused than other MMOs. With the introduction of raids, for many people those two goals came into conflict (especially for people like me who lead large fairly casual guilds).

I think raiding could be a part of that bigger picture without disrupting the challenging experience that meets the objective goal you describe. Was this part of the dev’s original plan? Obviously not based on their statements. But, that doesn’t mean they cannot evolve. Again, we have seen this in many other games with raids.

Let’s make raids a real part of the narrative – a real link in the GW2 development chain with the same importance and level of support we see for fractals or living story or WvW. But, to justify that, there has to be greater appeal. They really need to fit more with the implied goal/position of the game itself, which I don’t not currently feel they do. I think they can do that without removing the challenge (which I really want as well, btw – I even think they are probably a bit too easy for top level raiders).

I don’t want raids to fail. I don’t want challenging content to go away. I simply feel raids, as they are designed, aren’t really sustainable in this game. With some work – namely, extending the appeal (again, as other MMOs have done) – that can be remedied and we will have a stronger more appealing game for it.

Again, thank you for taking the time to humor me on this. I realize you and I disagree with one another. Let’s have a discussion about those disagreements (as you have definitely done above) rather than just argue (which is what much of this thread has devolved into).

I’m trying get your take-away point to generate discussion, but it’s hard to see your point. Is it that raids should be more inclusive because the rest of the game is?

We’ve had hard content before. Why can’t hard content stay hard and easy content stay easy?

Further, most proposed easy modes would divide the player base, just as open-world and raids divides the player base.