Guild Wars 2

MerlinGamer.7410:

I’m sorry to hear that you’ve had people attacking you over an open discussion but at the same time I don’t find it surprising sadly.

Before raids came along I don’t recall a single person ever using the word “elitist” once and now I hear it several times a day. I also never saw anyone criticise someone else’s DPS or demand that people share their personal counter information. I think it is important that the hardcore player base gets some content they can enjoy as well but raids have brought so much toxicity into this game and I am wondering if it would have been better without them.

I’ll tell you one thing, this has certainly put me off ever trying a game like WoW where the raids aren’t optional.

The term elitist has been thrown around since people first started dunegonsa and then again when Fractals came out and so on, that terms has been on the forums since the beginning go look up any thread condemning speed runners and such, those are some rose tinted glasses you have.

My point is its EVERYWHERE now, guild chat, map chat, forum topics. Nothing about rose tinted glasses. Perhaps it was in very very very niche specific forum topics but you have to agree the frequency of it has gone through the roof!

Sly.9518:

MerlinGamer.7410:

I’m sorry to hear that you’ve had people attacking you over an open discussion but at the same time I don’t find it surprising sadly.

Before raids came along I don’t recall a single person ever using the word “elitist” once and now I hear it several times a day. I also never saw anyone criticise someone else’s DPS or demand that people share their personal counter information. I think it is important that the hardcore player base gets some content they can enjoy as well but raids have brought so much toxicity into this game and I am wondering if it would have been better without them.

I’ll tell you one thing, this has certainly put me off ever trying a game like WoW where the raids aren’t optional.

The term elitist has been thrown around since people first started dunegonsa and then again when Fractals came out and so on, that terms has been on the forums since the beginning go look up any thread condemning speed runners and such, those are some rose tinted glasses you have.

Yup, i didn’t do alot of fractals before HoT, but the few times i did it’s nightmare with people who think everything belongs to them.
You search for people with experience, but of course you get the player who such reached lvl50, you even take him and ask for things like food, if he knows the builds and so on.
It obviously is slower than you want but at least you are going forward…until you wipe because the guy doesn’t change his traits like suggested…and if you point it out you get called elitist…you wipe a few more times before you have to kick him…but obv he is the victim.

Even now, years later people can’t read stuff like experienced, food + pots, and for what profession you are searching for.
Just a week ago, my 3man guild group was searching for a warrior as the last spot, we get an Ele, a core ranger and a DH, before we found a warrior.
The first one just ignores the question if he is about to reroll, 2nd one throws around insults including “elitist” and “toxic” and the third happily pulls mobs without a word.

Nah, not really.

It was way louder during dungeon peak time in addition to the “zerk meta”.

Vinceman.4572:

Nah, not really.

It was way louder during dungeon peak time in addition to the “zerk meta”.

For those that regularly did dungeons, it was a pretty common term, but I do agree that it is used more pervasively across the game now – as a result of how raids are perceived.

I will add, I do not believe there are as many true elitists as some think out there. In my mind, an elitist is someone who irrationally excludes people they feel are inferior in some way.

What we have in game is not irrational – but rather driven by the content and the developers moreso than the players. I blame this on a severely lopsided (and, imo, broken) meta and raid content that emphasizes kill fast design in ways the game actually hasn’t in the past (and, outside a brief period when Simin was overtuned and the next to last encounter in the 100 CM fractal, it really hasn’t).

The result is bias against builds and playstyles that significantly differ from the accepted mold. And, believe it or not, I do not blame people for doing this – and I do not see them as elitist for doing so. It is currently the least frustrating (and most enjoyable) way to approach the content.

But I can also see why others see this as elitist (even though it doesnt fit my definition of that word).

But it is also why I stress that the best way to deal with it is through a story or easy mode. I do not want them to touch the higher end difficulty at all (except, maybe, to make it harder). There needs to be a place for those looking for that challenge.

It is when the people looking for that challenge are forced to play the same mode as those simply looking for the experience that the friction occurs. And I realize “forced” is a hard term to use. But it applies – players looking for the experiences available in the raids right now have to subject themselves to the raids as they are right now.

The obvious solution is to split the experience (which includes different rewards, imo) – and that means story modes.

So, again, I don’t blame (most of) the current players raiding for this. Yes, some take the power of being in charge of successful groups to their heads and act in elitist ways, but the onus for the issue – and with coming up with a solution – lies with Anet.

Again so the players that Anet knew wouldn’t like the content and those players proved they don’t like the content, want to force their way into that content even though it was never designed for them? All for some “story”?

So if Anet develops a “Story” mode that provides no rewards and allow everyone unfettered access to just the Raids “story” the only prize being the “story” and nothing else, the easy mode players will still complain.

And if they did just make a “story” mode it would be wasted content since most would one and done, since their would be next to no reason to repeat it.

Remember most people screaming for a Easymode/story mode say it’s because of the lore/“story” and nothing else

Sly.9518:

Again so the players that Anet knew wouldn’t like the content and those players proved they don’t like the content, want to force their way into that content even though it was never designed for them? All for some “story”?

So if Anet develops a “Story” mode that provides no rewards and allow everyone unfettered access to just the Raids “story” the only prize being the “story” and nothing else, the easy mode players will still complain.

And if they did just make a “story” mode it would be wasted content since most would one and done, since their would be next to no reason to repeat it.

Remember most people screaming for a Easymode/story mode say it’s because of the lore/“story” and nothing else

First – thank you for actually discussing the topic.

My counter would be simply that what you discuss here is a design and reward issue more than anything. The same could be said of anything in game – including open world. The first time through is for the experience, but the content itself has to meet two criteria (imo) to encourage continued activity.

First, it must be fun. And, while a lower difficulty may not be fun for the top end raiders, I have to believe it would for those in less accepted builds and with less skill.

Second, there would still need to be a minimal reward. It would (imo) definitely not be what the top end raids offer, but something in line with what you get from completing a dungeon or world boss might be appropriate.

I dont see a significant challenge meeting those two criteria. The systems to make them a reality are inherent in the game as it stands now. And, again, if you can meet those criteria, the content becomes more valuable to both the community and the developers.

Blaeys.3102:

Sly.9518:

Again so the players that Anet knew wouldn’t like the content and those players proved they don’t like the content, want to force their way into that content even though it was never designed for them? All for some “story”?

So if Anet develops a “Story” mode that provides no rewards and allow everyone unfettered access to just the Raids “story” the only prize being the “story” and nothing else, the easy mode players will still complain.

And if they did just make a “story” mode it would be wasted content since most would one and done, since their would be next to no reason to repeat it.

Remember most people screaming for a Easymode/story mode say it’s because of the lore/“story” and nothing else

First – thank you for actually discussing the topic.

My counter would be simply that what you discuss here is a design and reward issue more than anything. The same could be said of anything in game – including open world. The first time through is for the experience, but the content itself has to meet two criteria (imo) to encourage continued activity.

First, it must be fun. And, while a lower difficulty may not be fun for the top end raiders, I have to believe it would for those in less accepted builds and with less skill.

Second, there would still need to be a minimal reward. It would (imo) definitely not be what the top end raids offer, but something in line with what you get from completing a dungeon or world boss might be appropriate.

I dont see a significant challenge meeting those two criteria. The systems to make them a reality are inherent in the game as it stands now. And, again, if you can meet those criteria, the content becomes more valuable to both the community and the developers.

I have been discussing this this entire time…..

And your statement illustrates something I was trying to prove, players wanted a “story Mode” for the Story(almost all requests say they only want it for the story) any concession to the story mode and now people are asking for Rewards, when previously all they wanted was the story, now rewards are being brought up, so if any concession is provided for the rewards it will escalate into wanting magnetite shards, then Li and so on.

This was seen in a similar situation with Low level Fractals rewards.

Sly.9518:

I have been discussing this this entire time…..

And your statement illustrates something I was trying to prove, players wanted a “story Mode” for the Story(almost all requests say they only want it for the story) any concession to the story mode and now people are asking for Rewards, when previously all they wanted was the story, now rewards are being brought up, so if any concession is provided for the rewards it will escalate into wanting magnetite shards, then Li and so on.

What you are discussing is the slippery slope argument – and most people recognize that, while it should be considered, it should never dictate the decision alone. You cannot inhibit progress for fear of future actions. You can only steel yourself against those future actions and hold firm to that resolve.

If people start advocating for rewards on par with the difficult modes, I will advocate against that idea as strongly as I currently advocate for story mode.

I’ve said before, the reward model I would support would include 50 silver per boss, a champion loot bag and a few magnetite shards – with the understanding that the magnetite vendor would only sell unique skins and minis AFTER the player had beaten the harder mode version of the fight (as it does now). The magnetite shards would only be there as a means to help players more easily gear for the harder raids.

Including some minimal reward on par with the rest of the non-raiding game is a VERY far cry from giving story mode anything even closely resembling hard mode difficulty gear.

MerlinGamer.7410:

Before raids came along I don’t recall a single person ever using the word “elitist” once and now I hear it several times a day.

You must not have been coming to these forums until recently, then. There was at least one post a week about exclusion in dungeons, and if the OP didn’t use the word elitist, another poster came along and used it soon after. I even recall the word being bandied about in discussions about “harder” open world content wherein some coordination is needed, like the Marionette fight in LW Season One. “Elitism” gets bandied about in games like this whenever someone is thwarted in getting into content which is to any degree “harder.”

On another matter… I think those claiming “anyone” can raid should spend more time in the open world. There are people being downed in fights like in Bloodstone Fen (Hablion, the Jade Bow + Armor and the Legendary Guardian). How likely are such people to do what it takes to succeed in content that is certainly “harder?”

We’re talking about not only a difference in skill, but also in mindset. A lot of GW2 players don’t have the mindset to raid. Now, my take on what that means is that they should accept that raids are not for them. However, the trend in gaming in general is more toward accommodating the masses while also throwing a bone to committed players. Thus, we see expectations that anyone should be able to raid with minimal commitment.

Blaeys.3102:

Sly.9518:

I have been discussing this this entire time…..

And your statement illustrates something I was trying to prove, players wanted a “story Mode” for the Story(almost all requests say they only want it for the story) any concession to the story mode and now people are asking for Rewards, when previously all they wanted was the story, now rewards are being brought up, so if any concession is provided for the rewards it will escalate into wanting magnetite shards, then Li and so on.

What you are discussing is the slippery slope argument – and most people recognize that, while it should be considered, it should never dictate the decision alone. You cannot inhibit progress for fear of future actions. You can only steel yourself against those future actions and hold firm to that resolve.

If people start advocating for rewards on par with the difficult modes, I will advocate against that idea as strongly as I currently advocate for story mode.

I’ve said before, the reward model I would support would include 50 silver per boss, a champion loot bag and a few magnetite shards – with the understanding that the magnetite vendor would only sell unique skins and minis AFTER the player had beaten the harder mode version of the fight (as it does now). The magnetite shards would only be there as a means to help players more easily gear for the harder raids.

Including some minimal reward on par with the rest of the non-raiding game is a VERY far cry from giving story mode anything even closely resembling hard mode difficulty gear.

The content was never designed for a story mode to begin with and people not even wanting Raids in game now cry for an easy mode for just the story, so they should get what they ask for just the story. Because more likely than not they won’t be content with the 50 silver and champ bags, since it’s already highlighting that the story mode crowd wouldn’t be happy with just the story(the main thing they ask for and say they want) and want rewards as well now and there is no story mode..

Lol ofc they want rewards, some people even brought up li+ascended stuff, basically it sums up to “i want free rewards”, there are very few genuine requests about story mode….most people are just looking to reap the raid rewards without actually having the incentive, attitude or ability to do so.

IndigoSundown.5419:

On another matter… I think those claiming “anyone” can raid should spend more time in the open world. There are people being downed in fights like in Bloodstone Fen (Hablion, the Jade Bow + Armor and the Legendary Guardian). How likely are such people to do what it takes to succeed in content that is certainly “harder?”

With all the stupidly scaled kitten flying around during some open world events, it’s sometimes easier not to go down in raids. And there, at least you directly know what killed you …

I think you’re underestimating the amount of toxicity that existed in the game. Sure, “elitist” is a new buzzword, but it’s just that – a buzzword. Players were elitists long before raids came. You want to run the dungeon with us? Sure, but only if you know the speed run tactics so we can make it 2 mins faster…. Or “2k AP, lol, kick”. Isn’t that elitism?

CptAurellian.9537:

IndigoSundown.5419:

On another matter… I think those claiming “anyone” can raid should spend more time in the open world. There are people being downed in fights like in Bloodstone Fen (Hablion, the Jade Bow + Armor and the Legendary Guardian). How likely are such people to do what it takes to succeed in content that is certainly “harder?”

With all the stupidly scaled kitten flying around during some open world events, it’s sometimes easier not to go down in raids. And there, at least you directly know what killed you …

I won’t deny that the Technicolor Dreamcoat on such meta bosses can make it hard to see. However, the learning curve in those open world events is not the same as in raids — or at least I hope not.

IndigoSundown.5419:

CptAurellian.9537:

IndigoSundown.5419:

On another matter… I think those claiming “anyone” can raid should spend more time in the open world. There are people being downed in fights like in Bloodstone Fen (Hablion, the Jade Bow + Armor and the Legendary Guardian). How likely are such people to do what it takes to succeed in content that is certainly “harder?”

With all the stupidly scaled kitten flying around during some open world events, it’s sometimes easier not to go down in raids. And there, at least you directly know what killed you …

I won’t deny that the Technicolor Dreamcoat on such meta bosses can make it hard to see. However, the learning curve in those open world events is not the same as in raids — or at least I hope not.

You see the learning curve is what you the individual makes of it.

Ultimately they learning is the same…Sans that open world has a ton more BS not-telegraphed, instant high damage spikes than raids. So if you’re able to survive in the open world and deal with that non-sense, you can surive the raid learning curve if you put yourself to learning 3-5 mechanics for each fight.

Feanor.2358:

I think you’re underestimating the amount of toxicity that existed in the game. Sure, “elitist” is a new buzzword, but it’s just that – a buzzword. Players were elitists long before raids came. You want to run the dungeon with us? Sure, but only if you know the speed run tactics so we can make it 2 mins faster…. Or “2k AP, lol, kick”. Isn’t that elitism?

Its not just 2 mins faster. The average non speed run pug run is 30-45min on one path. For my groups which are normally exp pugs, we finish all paths except arah in under 15mins.

This bring up the point. Why are they joining a run thats obviously asking for EXP players, then get mad when those more experienced players kick them? Why not bother to learn the extremely easy dungeon paths, beforehand? People spend their time writing guides and tutorials just for them to go ignored by the people that need the most. It’s shameful.

TexZero.7910:

I still will never get the we want a “story mode” crowd when there’s literally hours of footage on youtube for them to consume about the very loose existence of lore in the raids.

Pretty sure those people really just want the rewards but use a mode as justification for their desire not to do it the current way.

if you want to experience lets say th witcher and you cant buy it for whatever reason will watching it on the youtube be enough?

zealex.9410:

TexZero.7910:

I still will never get the we want a “story mode” crowd when there’s literally hours of footage on youtube for them to consume about the very loose existence of lore in the raids.

Pretty sure those people really just want the rewards but use a mode as justification for their desire not to do it the current way.

if you want to experience lets say th witcher and you cant buy it for whatever reason will watching it on the youtube be enough?

False quivolence. Making the story mode easy subtracks from the gameplay itself. There is a reason games like Dark Souls, and RPGs are loved. While games like CoD has campaigns that go mostly ignored even if having the option of a high difficulty.

You aren’t watching someone play raids, you are playing a watered down version. The reason Lets players are so popular is because they can play these games for people who can not. And yes, if i couldn’t play a game, or i sucked at a game, i would be more than happy to watch a Lets Play of it. I do it all the time.

However I don’t have the self entitlement to suggest that a game that has a curve be nerfed so I can experience ‘story’ that wont be NEARLY as good as if i had did it the way it was intended at first.

The difficulty of raids is part of the experience. But i guess thats why people care soooooo much about dungeon story right? It’s too easy, and its watered down, hence part of the reason no one cares about it. Deimos for instance, feels epic because he’s not some lame dungeon story boss. He feels epic because he can actually kill you. It feels good to kill him. Can you say you have ever felt the same about any of the dungeon stories? Cause literally no one i know has.

FrostDraco.8306:

zealex.9410:

TexZero.7910:

I still will never get the we want a “story mode” crowd when there’s literally hours of footage on youtube for them to consume about the very loose existence of lore in the raids.

Pretty sure those people really just want the rewards but use a mode as justification for their desire not to do it the current way.

if you want to experience lets say th witcher and you cant buy it for whatever reason will watching it on the youtube be enough?

False quivolence. Making the story mode easy subtracks from the gameplay itself. There is a reason games like Dark Souls, and RPGs are loved. While games like CoD has campaigns that go mostly ignored even if having the option of a high difficulty.

You aren’t watching someone play raids, you are playing a watered down version. The reason Lets players are so popular is because they can play these games for people who can not. And yes, if i couldn’t play a game, or i sucked at a game, i would be more than happy to watch a Lets Play of it. I do it all the time.

However I don’t have the self entitlement to suggest that a game that has a curve be nerfed so I can experience ‘story’ that wont be NEARLY as good as if i had did it the way it was intended at first.

The difficulty of raids is part of the experience. But i guess thats why people care soooooo much about dungeon story right? It’s too easy, and its watered down, hence part of the reason no one cares about it. Deimos for instance, feels epic because he’s not some lame dungeon story boss. He feels epic because he can actually kill you. It feels good to kill him. Can you say you have ever felt the same about any of the dungeon stories? Cause literally no one i know has.

And if that is the experience you are looking for, it is there for you.

The existence of a story mode in no way detracts from the difficulty or prestige of a more difficult mode. Any illusion that it does is in the mind of the player – and can be gotten past.

Blaeys.3102:

FrostDraco.8306:

zealex.9410:

TexZero.7910:

I still will never get the we want a “story mode” crowd when there’s literally hours of footage on youtube for them to consume about the very loose existence of lore in the raids.

Pretty sure those people really just want the rewards but use a mode as justification for their desire not to do it the current way.

if you want to experience lets say th witcher and you cant buy it for whatever reason will watching it on the youtube be enough?

False quivolence. Making the story mode easy subtracks from the gameplay itself. There is a reason games like Dark Souls, and RPGs are loved. While games like CoD has campaigns that go mostly ignored even if having the option of a high difficulty.

You aren’t watching someone play raids, you are playing a watered down version. The reason Lets players are so popular is because they can play these games for people who can not. And yes, if i couldn’t play a game, or i sucked at a game, i would be more than happy to watch a Lets Play of it. I do it all the time.

However I don’t have the self entitlement to suggest that a game that has a curve be nerfed so I can experience ‘story’ that wont be NEARLY as good as if i had did it the way it was intended at first.

The difficulty of raids is part of the experience. But i guess thats why people care soooooo much about dungeon story right? It’s too easy, and its watered down, hence part of the reason no one cares about it. Deimos for instance, feels epic because he’s not some lame dungeon story boss. He feels epic because he can actually kill you. It feels good to kill him. Can you say you have ever felt the same about any of the dungeon stories? Cause literally no one i know has.

And if that is the experience you are looking for, it is there for you.

The existence of a story mode in no way detracts from the difficulty or prestige of a more difficult mode. Any illusion that it does is in the mind of the player – and can be gotten past.

Tell that to the dungeon story modes that go abandoned outside of dailies and cheap tokens.

Tell that to the HoT metas, like Garent, that people love because it actually has a chance of failing.

Better yet, tell that to most games that have a casual non-competitive audience. Except for the fact that the most popular games ARE the competitive ones, for the added difficulty of playing vs other players.

Anyone that says it can be gotten past it are deluding themselves into thinking difficulty doesn’t make a difference in presentation of a story, is sorely mistaken. All the evidence points to the opposite. But instead you argue for the illusion of engagement, which story mode dungeons in GW2 just do not have. They are poor experiences, hence why the player base doesn’t care for the story paths.

But this is all under the assumption that some like the non mote w4 bosses are actually even difficult.

They. Are. Not.

FrostDraco.8306:

Blaeys.3102:

FrostDraco.8306:

zealex.9410:

TexZero.7910:

I still will never get the we want a “story mode” crowd when there’s literally hours of footage on youtube for them to consume about the very loose existence of lore in the raids.

Pretty sure those people really just want the rewards but use a mode as justification for their desire not to do it the current way.

if you want to experience lets say th witcher and you cant buy it for whatever reason will watching it on the youtube be enough?

False quivolence. Making the story mode easy subtracks from the gameplay itself. There is a reason games like Dark Souls, and RPGs are loved. While games like CoD has campaigns that go mostly ignored even if having the option of a high difficulty.

You aren’t watching someone play raids, you are playing a watered down version. The reason Lets players are so popular is because they can play these games for people who can not. And yes, if i couldn’t play a game, or i sucked at a game, i would be more than happy to watch a Lets Play of it. I do it all the time.

However I don’t have the self entitlement to suggest that a game that has a curve be nerfed so I can experience ‘story’ that wont be NEARLY as good as if i had did it the way it was intended at first.

The difficulty of raids is part of the experience. But i guess thats why people care soooooo much about dungeon story right? It’s too easy, and its watered down, hence part of the reason no one cares about it. Deimos for instance, feels epic because he’s not some lame dungeon story boss. He feels epic because he can actually kill you. It feels good to kill him. Can you say you have ever felt the same about any of the dungeon stories? Cause literally no one i know has.

And if that is the experience you are looking for, it is there for you.

The existence of a story mode in no way detracts from the difficulty or prestige of a more difficult mode. Any illusion that it does is in the mind of the player – and can be gotten past.

Tell that to the dungeon story modes that go abandoned outside of dailies and cheap tokens.

Tell that to the HoT metas, like Garent, that people love because it actually has a chance of failing.

Better yet, tell that to most games that have a casual non-competitive audience. Except for the fact that the most popular games ARE the competitive ones, for the added difficulty of playing vs other players.

Anyone that says it can be gotten past it are deluding themselves into thinking difficulty doesn’t make a difference in presentation of a story, is sorely mistaken. All the evidence points to the opposite. But instead you argue for the illusion of engagement, which story mode dungeons in GW2 just do not have. They are poor experiences, hence why the player base doesn’t care for the story paths.

But this is all under the assumption that some like the non mote w4 bosses are actually even difficult.

They. Are. Not.

And if you look at the modes as separate and independent of one another, it becomes a non issue.

No one realistically thinks T4 fractals are easier or thinks less of accomplisments there because T1 fractals exist.

The same is true of most single player game with multiple difficulties as well. Your mind goes to DS because it specifically markets itself in a particular way – but there are tons of games that offer a real challenge to one set of players while offering something else to another.

Im sorry – the argument that a story mode would diminish your accomplishment in hard mode raids (especially in GW2 – where the hard mode raids aren’t really that hard anyway) doesn’t hold water.

A story mode would ofc water down the actual mode cause a story mode without actual rewards has no replayability, thus there is no point.

I assume Blaeys knows what the basic rewards are for killing a boss right? I mean if u kill it 2/3 times in a week. I also assume Blaeys is good with those rewards and with also playing the story mode once and then forgetting about it just like most of the “story mode” fans would….

Let’s not kid ourselves, in the end it’s all just an excuse for players to reap the rewards without putting any effort. Also if anet were to release an “infintile mode” with only the basic rewards for a kill the whole “carebeared” community would complain again. Ofc giving asc drops and li would openly diminish everything that raids stand for so that isnt an option as well, unless u wanna drive the whole raid community away….

Blaeys.3102:

And if you look at the modes as separate and independent of one another, it becomes a non issue.

But they are not separate thats the point. Thats why LFG for dungeons is mostly empty of story. That’s why the living story LFG is mostly empty. That’s why the HoT story is mostly empty. People just want to get through it, and don’t care much for the content itself. There is little re-playability to a story mode that has next to no rewards.

Not only does it muddy the experience of the story the designer is trying to tell, it leaves a very bad impression on what the content is actually like. Having one will immediately pull people from the other. All the casuals that try VG everyweek? They will disappear once they clear that boss and unlock the mastery track. What happens then?

You people seem to have no consideration for the life of raids itself. Just convenience.

Blaeys.3102:

No one realistically thinks T4 fractals are easier or thinks less of accomplisments there because T1 fractals exist.

No one said anything about the accomplishments. I was talking about how the content plays, and how it delivers on impact. Nightmare 100 CM Ensolyss is possibly one of the best fights in the game. Why? Because its engaging, and it delivers content in a way that wouldn’t be possible with the way bosses get bursted on low scale fractals.

T1 nightmare is garbage compared to 100 Cm for that reason.

Blaeys.3102:

The same is true of most single player game with multiple difficulties as well. Your mind goes to DS because it specifically markets itself in a particular way – but there are tons of games that offer a real challenge to one set of players while offering something else to another.

Most single player games have easy and normal, but they are not MMO’s. And they are not built on having 10 players running in the same game world. Trying to compare the two falls flat, because the best single player games have engaging mechanics.

And how many of those game modes are good or popular? Few.

Blaeys.3102:

Im sorry – the argument that a story mode would diminish your accomplishment in hard mode raids (especially in GW2 – where the hard mode raids aren’t really that hard anyway) doesn’t hold water.

Again, you are implying the raids are hard, or would be considered hard mode. And that is the problem. Raids arent hard. They require effort. If effort is too much for you to show, then why should Anet put in any effort to appease you?

Do you actually even care about the raids themself? Or do you just care about auto attacking your way through something that gives the illusion of engagement? Because thats been the issue with a lot of GW2’s story.

I am not simple there to complete the raid once for ‘story’. I am there to experience content, every week, or multiple times a week if i want to redo a boss.

You say Anet can appeal to different kinds of players, but yet you want to change the content which Anet made to appeal to players like myself, and add something that would appeal to those people who don’t really care for it much.

Do you not see the irony?

Blaeys.3102:

And if you look at the modes as separate and independent of one another, it becomes a non issue.

Not possible. Because they would be too similar if provided.

Blaeys, your argument falls short simply because there’s absolutely no way one can differ the encounters from ‘Story’ to ‘Current’ without completely negating everything from the maps, encounters, and even LORE.

Perhaps it is a matter of perception, but even in the hypothetical circumstance that there was a Vale Guardian Story-Mode Variant that existed, that existence alone by it’s very existence, is not independent of the entity ‘Vale Guardian’. You begin the cycle of turning said being into something less organic. Right now everyone knows what ‘VG’ stands for. But in the event that two VGs exist, one absurdly trivial and the current one? You have to specify in said recruitment, Vale Guardian is no longer the Vale Guardian we know now.

Blaeys.3102:

No one realistically thinks T4 fractals are easier or thinks less of accomplisments there because T1 fractals exist.

Alluding back to perception, yes, T4 fractals are immensely similar to T1. That’s actually the intended, and lore-respective, point of Fractals. Aside from the Agony Requirement (a much harsher gate to content than Raids currently are) and the increasing instability severity and mob level, T1 and T4 are identical. Mobs, Trash, Atmosphere, Music, Sounds, everything’s the same.

The thing is, and what has been driven time and time again, is that Fractals were designed to become a sort of growth in difficulty not just vertically (requiring more and more ascended gear) but mechanically.

Raids, however, are specifically designed for a higher quality and quantity group content abstaining from AR requirements. It’s far similar to how the original vision for Explorable Dungeons were meant but not impressively realized. In fact not to strain too far from the conversation but as balancing and the continued expansion of profession tools are made available, much like how Explorable dungeons had fallen I do expect certain Raids to lose a bit of difficulty without directly hitting them.

Blaeys.3102:

The same is true of most single player game with multiple difficulties as well. Your mind goes to DS because it specifically markets itself in a particular way – but there are tons of games that offer a real challenge to one set of players while offering something else to another.

That’s true, however most often in these single-player games with multiple difficulties, said players learn about the entirety of the game’s sequence in the first run-through. And similar to fractals they want to go up the next difficulty perhaps, only to find that things just hit harder and they just need to slightly be less terrible at the game. Most likely ending up in nothing special happening when they do complete the game again on a higher difficulty.

That’s a terrible feeling, fortunately there have been a slew of games well before Dark Souls that actually encouraged the player to get a better reward, new challenge or plot twist for a harder difficulty. Have you played games like Contra before? The game series actually holds off on the ‘true’ endings unless you complete it on the hardest difficulty, which more often than not also contains extra phases, mechanics and even newer bosses for the player to deal with that isn’t under a normal playthrough.

It isn’t a uncommon practice to have the best lore and gameplay experience behind the hardest difficulty. And certain said games have not suffered for it.

Blaeys.3102:

Im sorry – the argument that a story mode would diminish your accomplishment in hard mode raids (especially in GW2 – where the hard mode raids aren’t really that hard anyway) doesn’t hold water.

There will forever be the factor that the best performance deserves the best rewards, or rather the encouragement behind perseverance, improving and finally conquering the challenge. Sorry Blaeys but at this stage while I do understand the plight of Story mode lore goers, like I have mentioned in the past there would be a considerable cost to it. It’s probably been iterated ad infinitum but more often than not it falls on deaf ears.

FrostDraco.8306:

zealex.9410:

TexZero.7910:

I still will never get the we want a “story mode” crowd when there’s literally hours of footage on youtube for them to consume about the very loose existence of lore in the raids.

Pretty sure those people really just want the rewards but use a mode as justification for their desire not to do it the current way.

if you want to experience lets say th witcher and you cant buy it for whatever reason will watching it on the youtube be enough?

False quivolence. Making the story mode easy subtracks from the gameplay itself. There is a reason games like Dark Souls, and RPGs are loved. While games like CoD has campaigns that go mostly ignored even if having the option of a high difficulty.

You aren’t watching someone play raids, you are playing a watered down version. The reason Lets players are so popular is because they can play these games for people who can not. And yes, if i couldn’t play a game, or i sucked at a game, i would be more than happy to watch a Lets Play of it. I do it all the time.

However I don’t have the self entitlement to suggest that a game that has a curve be nerfed so I can experience ‘story’ that wont be NEARLY as good as if i had did it the way it was intended at first.

The difficulty of raids is part of the experience. But i guess thats why people care soooooo much about dungeon story right? It’s too easy, and its watered down, hence part of the reason no one cares about it. Deimos for instance, feels epic because he’s not some lame dungeon story boss. He feels epic because he can actually kill you. It feels good to kill him. Can you say you have ever felt the same about any of the dungeon stories? Cause literally no one i know has.

Ppl just want their character to be in ther talk and kill the mobs and move on they dont care about challenge if they give them that well yes it will take some resources but it will free up their hard creatively alot for future raids and you will get rid of ppl crying so whats there to lose. Ppl want to exerience the story not the fight and they dont care how epic a story can be with difficulty.

zealex.9410:

Ppl just want their character to be in ther talk and kill the mobs and move on they dont care about challenge if they give them that well yes it will take some resources but it will free up their hard creatively alot for future raids and you will get rid of ppl crying so whats there to lose. Ppl want to exerience the story not the fight and they dont care how epic a story can be with difficulty.

I honestly don’t see that happening. First and foremost, I expect most people crying to keep crying, because they’ll get disappointed. FrostDraco is completely right – raids are only fun because they’re an actual challenge. This is how they got designed. Sure, there are some players genuinely interested in the lore and nothing beside the lore, but I’d be really surprised if they aren’t but the smallest minority.

So essentially throwing a lot effort (which could be used to create new content) in appeasing people who won’t be appeased by it seems like an exercise in futility. Furthermore, the follow-up complaints won’t be demanding a story mode, they’d be demanding ANet to stop any work on raids altogether. I’ve seen that happen.

zealex.9410:

Ppl just want their character to be in ther talk and kill the mobs and move on they dont care about challenge if they give them that well yes it will take some resources but it will free up their hard creatively alot for future raids and you will get rid of ppl crying so whats there to lose. Ppl want to exerience the story not the fight and they dont care how epic a story can be with difficulty.

Just like Feanor, I’ll have to disagree. What you write will be true for a small subset of the easymode crowd, but the vast majority of them will continue crying, because they actually want easy shinies with no effort. At least that’s the impression I get from all these whine threads.

zealex.9410:

Ppl just want their character to be in ther talk and kill the mobs and move on they dont care about challenge if they give them that well yes it will take some resources but it will free up their hard creatively alot for future raids and you will get rid of ppl crying so whats there to lose. Ppl want to exerience the story not the fight and they dont care how epic a story can be with difficulty.

No you see if they really just wanted their character to be in there killing mobs, they’d raid. If they really don’t care about challenge, they’d raid. If they just care solely about story, they’d ask for a cleared instance / watch videos / talk to the npc who shows you all the lore to begin with.

Instead we have people who use lore as a pretext for getting loot. It’s so obvious its not even funny.

You don’t even have people trying to mask it either. Ask the “lore” crowd if a raid with no loot is something they’d want and they come back with but no it needs loot. If you cannot support a pure lore mode with no loot, you cannot feasibly say you’re in it for the lore your in it for rewards.

Blaeys.3102:

The same is true of most single player game with multiple difficulties as well. Your mind goes to DS because it specifically markets itself in a particular way – but there are tons of games that offer a real challenge to one set of players while offering something else to another.

There has been a lot of discussion in industry in the past years that conclude that variable difficulty is a flawed concept, because players are generally poor at selecting the difficulty that would give them the experience the devs want them to have.

Most modern games with variable difficulty tend to designed with the easiest mode being the one that devs feel will give the best experience and harder modes being superfluous.

So today I went into the completed raid instances again today, I spent a good 2 hours walking around, looking at all the areas, reading every last little scrap of lore. My friend adverised the group as “FREE LORE- Come experience the story of <raid> – completed instance – all welcome”. For the first wing nobody came, but the 2nd 3rd and 4th people did come and we saw maybe 20 different people total.

I am extremely happy with what arena net have done here. I really honestly do not care about the LI or loot at all and have only cared about the lore and the fact that there is pretty much already a “story mode” is completely awesome and I really wish they had communicated it a bit better to me. Had I’d known that this existed I don’t know if I would have been quite as sympathetic with the OP’s position.

If you are an advocate of an easier mode for the lore and haven’t done this I implore you to go and do it. It’s very interesting, especially if you can have whoever opened it tell you a little bit about the boss as well and fill in any gaps that are missing from the mobs not actually being there. This is satisfactory to me and hopefully it is for you as well if you are being honest when you say all you care about is the lore.

People who are against an easy mode, please don’t assume that we necessarily already know about the cleared instance thing. I didn’t when I originally posted in this topic and nobody here mentioned it.

MerlinGamer.7410:

So today I went into the completed raid instances again today, I spent a good 2 hours walking around, looking at all the areas, reading every last little scrap of lore. My friend adverised the group as “FREE LORE- Come experience the story of <raid> – completed instance – all welcome”. For the first wing nobody came, but the 2nd 3rd and 4th people did come and we saw maybe 20 different people total.

Are you sure they where there for the story and not just to do the parts of Legendary Armor collections that can be done in a cleared instance?

Crinn.7864:

MerlinGamer.7410:

So today I went into the completed raid instances again today, I spent a good 2 hours walking around, looking at all the areas, reading every last little scrap of lore. My friend adverised the group as “FREE LORE- Come experience the story of <raid> – completed instance – all welcome”. For the first wing nobody came, but the 2nd 3rd and 4th people did come and we saw maybe 20 different people total.

Are you sure they where there for the story and not just to do the parts of Legendary Armor collections that can be done in a cleared instance?

Ahh well one guy did run in a very specific direction and did something and left in wing 2, maybe that’s what he was doing I did wonder if there was something like that. However the rest of us followed the commander as they explained everything and spoke to the NPCs. I was tempted to ask them if they had raided before but I didn’t want to start an argument.

Edit:
I can’t speak for others but I’ll try and explain why I WAS salty about the whole raiding thing:
I’ve loved Guild Wars since the first one, quite possibly more than I like this one. If you haven’t played it the White Mantle where a large part of the flame seeker prophecies (the base game) and they were also a huge part of the final content update called Guild Wars Beyond which was supposed to be a bridging piece for leading into the sequel. It was….very disappointing to find out that if you wanted to carry on that story line it was inaccessible without a gigantic amount of effort (and if you listen to some people which I was doing completely impossible: sucks to be us we’ve just missed the boat, season 1 all over again etc). But I’m extremely happy that I’ve got to carry on that story line now and have a look at the maps.

Earlier in this thread:

MerlinGamer.7410:

MerlinGamer.7410:

If a larger percentage of the community could experience and got into the concept of raiding then the developers would have more of an excuse to devote more time to raids, so it would likely create more raid content, not less.

If that’s supposed to happen, the easymode crowd first would have to find a consensus on what they actually want. So far, I’ve seen a crapton of different and sometimes contradictory concepts (some more stupid, some a little bit less), of which each would appeal only to a small subsection of the easymode crowd. At the current state, I see no reason to believe we’d see more raid content if they added another mode.

I didn’t quite understand what you meant when you said that. I thought that everyone who wanted the “story mode” had the same reasons that I did for wanting that and that was the “consensus”. But something that’s come up a lot is people saying that they wouldn’t be happy with just a story mode they want the reward for less effort. That’s honestly not how I feel at all. If I’m being completely honest I don’t even like the look of the Legendary armour that much! (although I think it would probably grow on me).

It’s great that you apparently found something that satisfied you. Maybe the raiding crowd should be more active in presenting this option to people who want a story mode. However, with that attitude you’re probably part of one of the smallest subsections I mentioned. When looking at our frequent easymode guys, I’m 100% certain they’re not in your subsection, but in a very different one.

Feanor.2358:

And people would still find it difficult. VG doesn’t kill you with HP or enrage, it kills you because you fail mechanics. Sure, lower HP would make the fight quicker, but you’ll wipe time and again in the first 1 min due to mechanics just like now.

Not really, It takes maybe 2 or 3 tries for even really casual groups to grasp mechanics enough to survive the first phase. It’s the greens during the next phases that usually kill people. And notice, that with lower hp and no enrage the group might go with more tanky approach to more easily survive through that.

Feanor.2358:

By the way, the above is true for each and every boss in the game. Enrage wipes are extremely rare and when they happen, they happen because people died early. Due to failing mechanics.

But they often fail mechanics due to rushing or getting downed due to going full glass. Without the pressure of the enrage timer safer strategies might get used.

Sly.9518:

Now if all the people want the lore would accept a cutscene done by a different team

As todays’ reactions to LS1 show, people generally aren’t satisfied by recaps and retells.

Vinceman.4572:

MerlinGamer.7410:

The raid team could be working on non raid stuff so the fact that there is a raid team does slow down other content releases.

Nah, that’s a wrong assumption.

They have several people on the raid team. Instead of them, they could have had the same number of people (not necessarily the same people) doing other stuff.

Yes, raids do cost us some other content. We just don’t know what content.

Feanor.2358:

I highly doubt said players will make it through Arah or TA Aetherblade either.

With the current powercreep you can steamroll while half asleep all over it. You just need to have one person who either was there before and/or read a guide somewhere.

TexZero.7910:

Raids are on par with the launch dungeons and the early days of Fractals (aka before ascended gear and a metric ton of power creep).

That’s not true. I have been running dungeons during that initial wave, and i remember only two times when we haven’t been able to finish the dungeon on the first go and had to reschedule. The first was our first dungeon ever (and we were seriously undergeared and underleveled then). The second was our first attempt at aetherpath (one player has fallen asleep at the last boss). Both turned out to be relatively easy at the second try.

When you remember the difficulties with dungeons, you likely think of the times when people were trying them at sub-80’s, geared with blues and greens.

Yes, the dungeons then were more difficult (that was before the nerfs, some of which were quite significant), but they were nowhere as hard as you claim.

The difficulty level of raids is something different.

Astralporing.1957:

And notice, that with lower hp and no enrage the group might go with more tanky approach to more easily survive through that.

With lower HP and no enrage timer you have 10 man dungeons.

Kind of interested to know how many of those posts would disappear if they actually gave us a solo story mode without any rewards and a new way to acquire LI outside of the raids.

Astralporing.1957:

But they often fail mechanics due to rushing or getting downed due to going full glass. Without the pressure of the enrage timer safer strategies might get used.

That’s the point though, to perform mechanics correctly under pressure. You are not supposed to tank through mechanics.
Safer strategies are possible, but leaves you with less space for mistakes as your damage is lower. You can recover from almost every possible mistake. Learning to recover without making it worse is also part of the learning process.

Yes, raids do cost us some other content. We just don’t know what content.

Those people were hired prior HoT release specifically for raids. Those jobs simply wouldn’t exist without raids.

TexZero.7910:

TexZero.7910:

Raids are on par with the launch dungeons and the early days of Fractals (aka before ascended gear and a metric ton of power creep).

That’s not true. I have been running dungeons during that initial wave, and i remember only two times when we haven’t been able to finish the dungeon on the first go and had to reschedule. The first was our first dungeon ever (and we were seriously undergeared and underleveled then). The second was our first attempt at aetherpath (one player has fallen asleep at the last boss). Both turned out to be relatively easy at the second try.

When you remember the difficulties with dungeons, you likely think of the times when people were trying them at sub-80’s, geared with blues and greens.

Yes, the dungeons then were more difficult (that was before the nerfs, some of which were quite significant), but they were nowhere as hard as you claim.

The difficulty level of raids is something different.

Raids are also not as hard as you claim. Once you get your first few kills with a static team the rest gets significant easier. There are enough relative easy bosses to train those basics, like Cairn which enrage does basically nothing outside of the challenge mode.

Henry.5713:

Kind of interested to know how many of those posts would disappear if they actually gave us a solo story mode without any rewards and a new way to acquire LI outside of the raids.

People would complain that the story mode has no rewards, still complain about skins locked behind raids and LI outside of raids do nothing as you still need to complete it for the collections.

Miellyn.6847:

Astralporing.1957:

But they often fail mechanics due to rushing or getting downed due to going full glass. Without the pressure of the enrage timer safer strategies might get used.

That’s the point though, to perform mechanics correctly under pressure. You are not supposed to tank through mechanics.
Safer strategies are possible, but leaves you with less space for mistakes as your damage is lower. You can recover from almost every possible mistake. Learning to recover without making it worse is also part of the learning process.

So, you do agree, that merely removing enrage timers can make the encounter easier, even if usually people do not die directly to the enrage.

Miellyn.6847:

Yes, raids do cost us some other content. We just don’t know what content.

Those people were hired prior HoT release specifically for raids. Those jobs simply wouldn’t exist without raids.

Those jobs, yes. That doesn’t mean Anet couldn’t have hired people for other jobs using the same money. That money wouldn’t have stopped existing if there were no raids.

(besides, i’m pretty sure not all of them were hired for that. Some, if i remember correctly, already worked for Anet before)

Miellyn.6847:

Raids are also not as hard as you claim. Once you get your first few kills with a static team the rest gets significant easier. There are enough relative easy bosses to train those basics, like Cairn which enrage does basically nothing outside of the challenge mode.

Getting those few first kills is a pain though. Especially if you can’t get a static team that won’t start coming apart after a string of not-quite-successes.

I’m not guessing here, i am actually raiding, and i know how much effort and time it took to get to the point where i’m killing at least some bosses reliably each week. And how much of that depended on me getting in static with people that are much, much more experienced at raids than i am. I also know painfully well how many of my friends didn’t make it to that point.

No, it’s not that easy at all.

Astralporing.1957:

Not really, It takes maybe 2 or 3 tries for even really casual groups to grasp mechanics enough to survive the first phase. It’s the greens during the next phases that usually kill people. And notice, that with lower hp and no enrage the group might go with more tanky approach to more easily survive through that.

Dying to greens in the next phases is exactly failing mechanics. Or their interaction, to be precise. Lowering the HP of the boss wouldn’t help. And if anything, going tankier would simply counter it. There are ways to mitigate the constant damage pressure, but these aren’t newbie-friendly either.

Astralporing.1957:

But they often fail mechanics due to rushing or getting downed due to going full glass. Without the pressure of the enrage timer safer strategies might get used.

No, they get downed because they’re failing mechanics. There’s no reason to get downed anywhere, except making mistakes. Letting the seekers reach you is a mechanic failure. Not going to greens is a mechanic failure. Dying to retal at Gorse is a mechanic failure (you didn’t CC him fast enough). Being tanky doesn’t do anything of value in raids. The damage pressure is high enough so if you’re making mistakes you will get downed, no matter how tanky you are. It seems counter-intuitive, but full glass is actually the safest option for damage dealers. The tankier you are, the more time you’ll spend in the encounter, the more mistakes you’ll make. Simple. Now, if you have one, by all means take a minstrel chrono. But don’t sacrifice noticeable dps for being tanky. It’s pointless.

Astralporing.1957:

With the current powercreep you can steamroll while half asleep all over it. You just need to have one person who either was there before and/or read a guide somewhere.

I was talking about mechanics again. I’ve seen people fail mechanics on Aetherpath, fail them to the point they couldn’t do what we asked them to after explaining. Not everything in this game can be done by selecting a mob and pressing “1”.

Feanor.2358:

Astralporing.1957:

Not really, It takes maybe 2 or 3 tries for even really casual groups to grasp mechanics enough to survive the first phase. It’s the greens during the next phases that usually kill people. And notice, that with lower hp and no enrage the group might go with more tanky approach to more easily survive through that.

Dying to greens in the next phases is exactly failing mechanics. Or their interaction, to be precise. Lowering the HP of the boss wouldn’t help.

Not alone, no. Removing the enrage would be crucial here.

Feanor.2358:

And if anything, going tankier would simply counter it. There are ways to mitigate the constant damage pressure, but these aren’t newbie-friendly either.

The standard fractal setup of 4 necro+1 healer, modified for 10-man (so, 2 healers, 2 auramancers for safety net and pressure negation, 6 reapers with the heal on condi trait) would likely be able to do it by just outhealing greens. That’s hardly an advanced strategy. Of course, such a setup would be much, much slower, which necessitates enrage removal. Lowering boss HP would help a lot as well, because it would help to reduce the fight time for such a setup to relatively reasonable range (1 hour or longer kills are not reasonable for casuals, most people would not have endurance for those)

Feanor.2358:

Astralporing.1957:

But they often fail mechanics due to rushing or getting downed due to going full glass. Without the pressure of the enrage timer safer strategies might get used.

No, they get downed because they’re failing mechanics.

Sure. But with a different setup they might not get downed. That’s what “safer strategies” means.

Feanor.2358:

Being tanky doesn’t do anything of value in raids.

Because of the enrage timer. And because the boss hps push the potential fight time for the safer methods into relatively ridiculous ranges.

Feanor.2358:

But don’t sacrifice noticeable dps for being tanky. It’s pointless.

Yes. Because the timers and huge boss hp pools (and, sometimes, secondary timer mechanics) make it pointless.

Feanor.2358:

Astralporing.1957:

With the current powercreep you can steamroll while half asleep all over it. You just need to have one person who either was there before and/or read a guide somewhere.

I was talking about mechanics again. I’ve seen people fail mechanics on Aetherpath, fail them to the point they couldn’t do what we asked them to after explaining.

No. Not being able to play at the skill level required for raids does not mean not being able to dodge or read chat. The players you brought up here as an example are not a good representation of the group you were addressing then.

Besides, nowadays you can just flat out ignore most of the mechanics in those.

Astralporing.1957:

…

I was going to address point by point, but… it’s really pointless. It seems you’ve never raided and you’re asking for changes based on some imaginary situations you’ve conjured up in your mind about the activity. 4N1D standard, cheesus…

Even if you are able to cheese some encounters like that, many others will kill you in different ways. You’ll run out of updrafts on Gorseval. You’ll get your platform destroyed on Sabetha. You’ll get drowned in condis on Sloth and you’ll just get killed on Matthias because no amount of tankiness is going to save you there. You’re just asking for a way to do challenging content by pressing “1”. I wonder why there isn’t one?

Feanor.2358:

Even if you are able to cheese some encounters like that, many others will kill you in different ways. You’ll run out of updrafts on Gorseval. You’ll get your platform destroyed on Sabetha.

Yes, i did mention the secondary “enrage” mechanics as well. Those would have needed to be removed/changed as well, which would increase the workload. But we were talking about specific VG mechanic after all, so i addressed that one.

Let me repeat myself: you’re asking for content created with the intent to be challenging, to get dumbed down to the point of being doable by pressing “1” with a random nonsense comp. It would be quite a big effort to do so and the end result would be ultimately disappointing, as you’d be missing the whole point of it. So you’d still be complaining. I see literally zero reasons to support your demand.

Feanor.2358:

Let me repeat myself: you’re asking for content created with the intent to be challenging, to get dumbed down to the point of being doable by pressing “1” with a random nonsense comp. It would be quite a big effort to do so and the end result would be ultimately disappointing, as you’d be missing the whole point of it. So you’d still be complaining. I see literally zero reasons to support your demand.

Beacause getting rewards by pressing one is all that some people want they don’t care if the content wasn’t made for them or if it is supposed to be challenging, all they want are the rewards. It’s sad but that how some people are. And they will use excuse like, but the lore needs to be accessible but when you say fine have a story mode with no rewards they start saying that they need rewards as well as story.

Feanor.2358:

I see literally zero reasons to support your demand.

Then do so. Just don’t claim that the “arguments” about the mechanics you brought up earlier are valid. Don’t also try to put words in my mouth and misappresent my position. If you find it so hard to argue against me that you need to present some caricature of my goals in order to argue against them, then maybe your arguments aren’t all that good at all.

I think there are at least 10 threads about this.

Triggerbrand.8072:

I think there are at least 10 threads about this.

Man I wish there were just 10. There were about 4 or so threads and a megathread about raids Prior to HoT Launch.

More often than not you have to go through several filters of posters who plainly want the raid rewards without actually raiding, to find the guys who actually care about Lore or something of that nature.

Sykper.6583:

Triggerbrand.8072:

I think there are at least 10 threads about this.

Man I wish there were just 10. There were about 4 or so threads and a megathread about raids Prior to HoT Launch.

More often than not you have to go through several filters of posters who plainly want the raid rewards without actually raiding, to find the guys who actually care about Lore or something of that nature.

I would contest this point. The number of people Ive seen discussing raid rewards – at least on par with what the harder mode offers – are few and far between. In fact, I can only think of one and he hasnt really posted in a while. People try to make it about loot because that is easier to argue against (and I even agree – loot on par with what we have now has no place in a story or easier mode).

Most realize this isnt a discussion about loot. It is a discussion about accessibility.

There is a reason this thread keeps resurfacing. This is something many in the community want. Even as each conversation (which can become monotonous, I admit) plays out, new people surface who see the issue and restart the discussion. Ideally, these threads would be merged, but I can see why the mods don’t. It would be a significant task to keep up with it.

It does show the continued desire for this kind of change – from new people on a pretty consistent basis – however. As always, I hope Anet is paying attention.

A handful of people per week hardly show anything.