Guild Wars 2

Blaeys.3102:

this isnt a discussion about loot. It is a discussion about accessibility.

It’s more nuanced than that. It’s a discussion about whether any game should include challenging content designed for only a fraction of players and especially whether this game should do so.

Separately, some people (not necessarily the same ones) are completionists. Just as some people want ALL the minis, some want to experience ALL the lore.

And separately from that, some people (again, not necessarily the same ones) feel that something as tremendous as Legendary Armor shouldn’t be gated to exclusive content. It might be (the argument goes) okay to gate skins (which happens with fractals, pvp, wvw, dungeons,…), but don’t gate this special reward.

And sure, some people just want more rewards without doing more work — we see that when farms are nerfed or even modestly altered. That doesn’t invalidate the other concerns that other people have.

I was very against the idea of raids — I thought exclusive content would be bad for the community. I think it’s turned out that it’s been good for the game — it’s attracted new people, given veterans a reason to work on their own skills as players, & shown ANet how a small team can be incredibly effective & efficient (especially if it’s aiming for doing one thing right, rather than lots of things half-baked).

If it had been up to me, I wouldn’t have made L-Armor exclusive nor put so much lore into raids without giving people other ways to experience it.

However, given that they’ve made those choices, I don’t think it’s worthwhile for ANet to spend additional resources changing the content|rewards we already have. I also hope they consider player feelings about lore & rewards going forward, but I very much hope that they don’t change raids to appeal to everyone — raids are successful because they have a specific focus.

Ok then the ppl who are interested in the lore of the raid are the ppl who also play the living world updates. These ppl play throught it once because they want to play it then get their 1 yellow and 2 greens and move on. The raid designers can do just that and everyone will be just ok. Im not i repeat im not say to lower te difficulty of raids and the direction of the raids are the base mode to be somewhat easier and cm to be the real challenge so since we aproach both the normal veterans players and the delusional elitists, why not have a story mode that is one time rewards and its only for the lore.

Astralporing.1957:

Feanor.2358:

I see literally zero reasons to support your demand.

Then do so. Just don’t claim that the “arguments” about the mechanics you brought up earlier are valid. Don’t also try to put words in my mouth and misappresent my position. If you find it so hard to argue against me that you need to present some caricature of my goals in order to argue against them, then maybe your arguments aren’t all that good at all.

I don’t find it hard, I find it pointless. Your position is pretty clear, and – in my opinion – pretty… should I say “spoiled”? It’s clear you won’t listen to any reasons which don’t support your own agenda, so why bother?

Having finally managed to get some order in my life to try raids i can say this. The difficulty is fine. It’s a good challenge that has pushed me to improve my play style immensely. So far i have managed Mo, Samarog, VG and Gorseval. Escort is faceroll.

A story mode with no rewards and the mastery unlock for folks who do not want to do it passed that could be cool though.

If you do what I did and ask someone to open a completed instance then you can experience the story and cut scenes. In fact you get to experience potentially MORE of the story then if you went into a normal raid. People who play this game are typically impatient and ever since gw1 people have been ratty about people who don’t skip cutscenes so the idea of them letting you go off the optimal path to read the paper scraps is laughable. I’m not saying nobody would let you do it but it’s a much more relaxed environment to allow you to do it.

In terms of rewards there are actually some you can get. I got some green weapons and medallions and empyreal fragments. There’s also a vista and hot mastery point to grab you don’t get a yellow but it’s already more than enough reward in my opinion and it should be for you if you really want the story. Go to silver wastes and get 3 yellows in the same time instead.

All that’s missing really is the encounters but easy mode versions would just be a chore imo because they’ll probably just make them Tanky but no damage so you have to spend ages auto attacking with no threat of dying much like the world bosses. That might be fun for some people but there’s so much of that everywhere else. I can sympathise with people who actually do want the story as it’s pretty important closure stuff from a gw1 perspective but I feel you’re harming the case talking about rewards because it’s just bolstering the stereotype these people are quite rightly fighting against!

MerlinGamer.7410:

If you do what I did and ask someone to open a completed instance then you can experience the story and cut scenes. In fact you get to experience potentially MORE of the story then if you went into a normal raid. People who play this game are typically impatient and ever since gw1 people have been ratty about people who don’t skip cutscenes so the idea of them letting you go off the optimal path to read the paper scraps is laughable. I’m not saying nobody would let you do it but it’s a much more relaxed environment to allow you to do it.

In terms of rewards there are actually some you can get. I got some green weapons and medallions and empyreal fragments. There’s also a vista and hot mastery point to grab you don’t get a yellow but it’s already more than enough reward in my opinion and it should be for you if you really want the story. Go to silver wastes and get 3 yellows in the same time instead.

All that’s missing really is the encounters but easy mode versions would just be a chore imo because they’ll probably just make them Tanky but no damage so you have to spend ages auto attacking with no threat of dying much like the world bosses. That might be fun for some people but there’s so much of that everywhere else. I can sympathise with people who actually do want the story as it’s pretty important closure stuff from a gw1 perspective but I feel you’re harming the case talking about rewards because it’s just bolstering the stereotype these people are quite rightly fighting against!

So much this. If story/lore is what you actually want, then just ask for a cleared instance.

Feanor.2358:

So much this. If story/lore is what you actually want, then just ask for a cleared instance.

If you are a lore completionist, this won’t be enough — there’s a bit of interesting lore that happens right before, during, and after the encounters; it won’t appear in cleared instances. (In particular, releasing the Shackled Prisoner is a big deal to those interested in GW1’s story.)

Again, I’m not in favor of ANet spending resources to retrofit existing instances. I also don’t want to dismiss the interest of those primarily concerned with lore and I hope that ANet finds a way to address this for future wings.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Feanor.2358:

So much this. If story/lore is what you actually want, then just ask for a cleared instance.

If you are a lore completionist, this won’t be enough — there’s a bit of interesting lore that happens right before, during, and after the encounters; it won’t appear in cleared instances. (In particular, releasing the Shackled Prisoner is a big deal to those interested in GW1’s story.)

Again, I’m not in favor of ANet spending resources to retrofit existing instances. I also don’t want to dismiss the interest of those primarily concerned with lore and I hope that ANet finds a way to address this for future wings.

Let’s get on that … right after easy mode arah.

But most of the lore is in a cleared instance or right before the fight. Or, heck, fight the boss and fail if you care about dialog.

Storytelling differs between media. Douglas Adams (Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy) is famous for telling the same story in very different ways between four different media – the BBC radio broadcast (where he started), the books (which we are all familiar with), the movie (which he did write) and even a video game in the 80s (which he also developed copy for).

And every one of them differed in extreme ways. He firmly believed that the medium through which the story is told is part of the story.

The point is, the story of the raids (however slight you think it is) was developed with this particular medium in mind. Expecting a cleared instance or youtube video to convey the experience of being a hero in this story (which is what we expect from a video game) is shortsighted.

It isn’t about lore. It is about the experience of being the hero in the story. That is how video games differ from movies, books, etc. Current raid design expects a number of people to play in ways they do not enjoy. Providing a story mode would be about giving them that experience – without having to impede with how the harder core raiders enjoy the story.

You may not see a need for it. You may think what is provided now is “good enough.” But that doesnt mean others feel that same way. GW2 has always been very good at making sure pretty much every build had a realistic and non-frustrating way to enjoy PVE content (yes, even in Arah explorable modes – with the possible exception of the brief period when Simin was overtuned – but even that was fixed). It’s time to take that same philosophy with raids.

Blaeys.3102:

Storytelling differs between media. Douglas Adams (Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy) is famous for telling the same story in very different ways between four different media – the BBC radio broadcast, the books (which we are all familiar with), the movie (which he did write) and even a video game in the 80s.

And every one of them differed in extreme ways. He firmly believed that the medium through which the story is told is part of the story.

The point is, the story of the raids (however slight you think it is) was developed with this particular medium in mind. Expecting a cleared instance or youtube video to convey the experience of being a hero in this story (which is what we expect from a video game) is shortsighted.

It isn’t about lore. It is about the experience of being the hero in the story. That is how video games differ from movies, books, etc. That experience currently expects a number of people to play in ways they do not enjoy. Providing a story mode would be about giving them that experience – without having to impede with how the harder core raiders enjoy the story.

You may not see a need for it. You may think what is provided now is “good enough.” But that doesnt mean others feel that same way. GW2 has always been very good at making sure pretty much every build had a realistic and non-frustrating way to enjoy the content (yes, even in Arah explorable modes).

On the flip side, I don’t feel like a hero in the living story, because it’s too easy. Where’s the hard mode draconis mons?

There’s plenty of content to go around. It sounds selfish when you request that every single piece of lore cater to every player.

Plus, this is some side lore, not even the main story of guild wars 2.

Absurdo.8309:

On the flip side, I don’t feel like a hero in the living story, because it’s too easy. Where’s the hard mode draconis mons?

There’s plenty of content to go around. It sounds selfish when you request that every single piece of lore cater to every player.

Plus, this is some side lore, not even the main story of guild wars 2.

First, it most definitely isnt selfish. Your example is faulty. The difference between Draconis Mons and the raids is that the Draconis Mons experience is not exclusionary in any sense. The same cannot be said of of the raid experience where off builds or playstyles result in extreme levels of frustration. And, if there were a way to include harder content in open world in a way that made sense, I would be all for it.

Second, there is no such thing as side lore. That is a semantic distinction one developer tried to float to justify exclusionary design – nothing more. These are stories that take place in the world of Tyria and involve characters/settings/etc in that world. And, they are stories players are interested in experiencing – that is what really matters. You could just as easily call all of the stories in the game side stories since there are several story arcs that have started or played out since the game started.

Absurdo.8309:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Feanor.2358:

So much this. If story/lore is what you actually want, then just ask for a cleared instance.

If you are a lore completionist, this won’t be enough — there’s a bit of interesting lore that happens right before, during, and after the encounters; it won’t appear in cleared instances. (In particular, releasing the Shackled Prisoner is a big deal to those interested in GW1’s story.)

Again, I’m not in favor of ANet spending resources to retrofit existing instances. I also don’t want to dismiss the interest of those primarily concerned with lore and I hope that ANet finds a way to address this for future wings.

Let’s get on that … right after easy mode arah.

But most of the lore is in a cleared instance or right before the fight. Or, heck, fight the boss and fail if you care about dialog.

I guess you didn’t read my second paragraph — I don’t think ANet should do this. I’m pointing out that not all the lore is available in a cleared instance and that lore is important to some people.

And there already is a story mode for Arah that can be done alone. And although explorable mode can be difficult for some, it’s not that hard to find a few people who can carry a couple of folks through. That’s not true for non-raiders wanting to experience the lore.

Again, even though I accept the lore-related argument, I still don’t think it’s a good use of ANet’s resources to add a story mode or even a different level of difficulty.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Absurdo.8309:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Feanor.2358:

So much this. If story/lore is what you actually want, then just ask for a cleared instance.

If you are a lore completionist, this won’t be enough — there’s a bit of interesting lore that happens right before, during, and after the encounters; it won’t appear in cleared instances. (In particular, releasing the Shackled Prisoner is a big deal to those interested in GW1’s story.)

Again, I’m not in favor of ANet spending resources to retrofit existing instances. I also don’t want to dismiss the interest of those primarily concerned with lore and I hope that ANet finds a way to address this for future wings.

Let’s get on that … right after easy mode arah.

But most of the lore is in a cleared instance or right before the fight. Or, heck, fight the boss and fail if you care about dialog.

I guess you didn’t read my second paragraph — I don’t think ANet should do this. I’m pointing out that not all the lore is available in a cleared instance and that lore is important to some people.

And there already is a story mode for Arah that can be done alone. And although explorable mode can be difficult for some, it’s not that hard to find a few people who can carry a couple of folks through. That’s not true for non-raiders wanting to experience the lore.

Again, even though I accept the lore-related argument, I still don’t think it’s a good use of ANet’s resources to add a story mode or even a different level of difficulty.

But Arah Story is still too hard. I just want to walk in have everything fall over while i eat popcorn and chill so i can get my immersion. Oh also lootbags because lets be real here, I’m a hero and deserve to be rewarded for watching the action unfold!

See the problems being created here ?

Blaeys.3102:

Absurdo.8309:

On the flip side, I don’t feel like a hero in the living story, because it’s too easy. Where’s the hard mode draconis mons?

There’s plenty of content to go around. It sounds selfish when you request that every single piece of lore cater to every player.

Plus, this is some side lore, not even the main story of guild wars 2.

First, it most definitely isnt selfish. Your example is faulty. The difference between Draconis Mons and the raids is that the Draconis Mons experience is not exclusionary in any sense. The same cannot be said of of the raid experience where off builds or playstyles result in extreme levels of frustration. And, if there were a way to include harder content in open world in a way that made sense, I would be all for it.

Second, there is no such thing as side lore. That is a semantic distinction one developer tried to float to justify exclusionary design – nothing more. These are stories that take place in the world of Tyria and involve characters/settings/etc in that world. And, they are stories players are interested in experiencing – that is what really matters. You could just as easily call all of the stories in the game side stories since there are several story arcs that have started or played out since the game started.

It’s 100% exclusionary. I don’t get the hero vibe from that content, so I’m excluded from being a hero.

Sure, I could get the lore from pressing 1 through the content, but that’s not the same as experiencing a heroic adventure.

… or, maybe it’s ok that guild wars 2 has a lot of content across all experience levels. Different strokes for different folks.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Absurdo.8309:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Feanor.2358:

So much this. If story/lore is what you actually want, then just ask for a cleared instance.

If you are a lore completionist, this won’t be enough — there’s a bit of interesting lore that happens right before, during, and after the encounters; it won’t appear in cleared instances. (In particular, releasing the Shackled Prisoner is a big deal to those interested in GW1’s story.)

Again, I’m not in favor of ANet spending resources to retrofit existing instances. I also don’t want to dismiss the interest of those primarily concerned with lore and I hope that ANet finds a way to address this for future wings.

Let’s get on that … right after easy mode arah.

But most of the lore is in a cleared instance or right before the fight. Or, heck, fight the boss and fail if you care about dialog.

I guess you didn’t read my second paragraph — I don’t think ANet should do this. I’m pointing out that not all the lore is available in a cleared instance and that lore is important to some people.

And there already is a story mode for Arah that can be done alone. And although explorable mode can be difficult for some, it’s not that hard to find a few people who can carry a couple of folks through. That’s not true for non-raiders wanting to experience the lore.

Again, even though I accept the lore-related argument, I still don’t think it’s a good use of ANet’s resources to add a story mode or even a different level of difficulty.

Arah path 4 is longer than all raid encounters and harder than, say, half of them. Everyone is complaining about raid easy mode, but where is my easy mode arah p4?

I know I’m contradicting my original position here a lot but I’ve spent a lot of time talking to people and thinking about this.

I’m still not completely convinced that a story mode would be a bad idea. It would undoubtedly slow development and it may put some people off doing a harder mode and here’s why:

One of the most disappointing fights in the game for me is the zhaitan fight at the end of the personal story and I’m not going to go into it because it’s been talked about to death. If they decided to make a hard version of that fight I’m really not sure that I would go and do that because it just feels so flawed that tweaking the difficulty wouldn’t be enough to fix it. From a lore point of view the way it ended mixed with the name of the guardians elite specialisation has really changed the way I feel about the elder dragons now and I’m not as invested in the HoT storyline because of it.

Story telling in a video game requires experience, it’s keen esthetic. It’s not the same as reading a book. However a book can tell you something. Not being at the skill level to raid but being able to experience the story has its own mistique about it knowing that there’s something in this game you can’t just auto attack to death is…. well it’s interesting, I don’t know if it’s a good or a bad feeling.

Technically having a story mode that’s independent doesn’t change the above, and it is a position I stand by. But I think if they’re going to do it and it ends up half kitten d am I going to be in the position I would theoretically be in if they added zhaitan hard mode? True, in my mind, the flaws in that fight aren’t to do with difficulty, at least exclusively. But if it was harder originally you would have experienced something you had to overcome.

I think when it comes to builds there needs to be work done on both sides. Perhaps raiders are too ridgedly attached to the meta and could ease up on builds that are at least realistic in what they try to do and arena net need to really consider why we have things in this game that are objectively terrible and either buff or remove them. There’s freedom of choice and there’s noob traps… sometimes I feel it’s the second. The problem with builds I find is that in gw2 it’s a lot of effort to change your stats when you compare it to gw1, this sounds eased up a lot with legendary armour but it’s the catch 22 if you want it to start raiding! It’s a gigantic pain in the butt if you later find out that what your wearing and what you’ve worked towards is bad or has been nerfed but it’s also not impossible to go and get the gear…. theoretically at least, slightly off meta will be insanely cheaper than meta but if it’s not enough for the average raid group then I can see why you might feel screwed.

I don’t know. Perhaps the solution isn’t as simple as I originally thought it was….

MerlinGamer.7410:

Perhaps raiders are too ridgedly attached to the meta and could ease up on builds that are at least realistic in what they try to do and arena net need to really consider why we have things in this game that are objectively terrible and either buff or remove them.

It’s not “raiders”. It’s a large part of this entire community. These issues have been there for much longer than raids.

CptAurellian.9537:

MerlinGamer.7410:

Perhaps raiders are too ridgedly attached to the meta and could ease up on builds that are at least realistic in what they try to do and arena net need to really consider why we have things in this game that are objectively terrible and either buff or remove them.

It’s not “raiders”. It’s a large part of this entire community. These issues have been there for much longer than raids.

I agree with Aurellian. Asserting that this type of behavior is new and due to raids simply means the asserting poster has not been paying attention or is new to posting.

As to why we have things (i.e., build elements) in the game that aren’t part of a harder-instanced-content meta, that’s simple. Build elements do not have to be desirable in every piece of content to have a place in the game. A given profession’s build choices must suffice for every bit of content a player might want to engage with.

The 50% less falling damage trait is about as niche as it gets, but I don’t hear arguments that it should be part of the instanced content meta. Other build elements have their niche or potential niche. There are a lot of players who wear survival gear in open PvE, for instance. That does not mean it needs to be an optimal choice everywhere. So, as far as “Remove it from the game” goes, no, players don’t get to decide that a build element has no place in the game because meta players won’t allow it in a raid.

Alright that’s a fair point I’ll give you that it isn’t new with raids I remember dungeons being zerk only.

However a complaint I’ve heard people say a lot is “random builds” and “random gear”. As for traits I really really really wish that anet would add the system they had in gw1 when you could 1 click a build and save/share it with people. Although if all the traits were at least somewhat balanced with each other then you might be missing out on a bit of synergy but it seems with the “random build” complaint that you can really kitten yourself if you don’t know what you’re doing and I’m hearing complaints on the other side that a potentially legitimate strategy on their side is being disregarded as it isn’t meta.

MerlinGamer.7410:

I’m hearing complaints on the other side that a potentially legitimate strategy on their side is being disregarded as it isn’t meta.

Yes, that can happen.

Adherence to the meta in pick-up-groups is risk management. In what is mostly a random grouping setup, players have almost no control over who joins a group. They insist on a meta comp and the accompanying encounter tactics because those things have worked on prior tries. There is risk in allowing other players to deviate because there is no certainty that the deviation is going to produce a positive result.

Throw in the idea that unless an encounter is new, the people insisting on the meta have done the encounter before, maybe a lot of times. Having succeeded before, maybe many times, failure would be seen as a waste of time. Thus, there is little incentive to try a new way of doing the encounter when the old way works and the new way might not.

Absurdo.8309:

Blaeys.3102:

Absurdo.8309:

On the flip side, I don’t feel like a hero in the living story, because it’s too easy. Where’s the hard mode draconis mons?

There’s plenty of content to go around. It sounds selfish when you request that every single piece of lore cater to every player.

Plus, this is some side lore, not even the main story of guild wars 2.

First, it most definitely isnt selfish. Your example is faulty. The difference between Draconis Mons and the raids is that the Draconis Mons experience is not exclusionary in any sense. The same cannot be said of of the raid experience where off builds or playstyles result in extreme levels of frustration. And, if there were a way to include harder content in open world in a way that made sense, I would be all for it.

Second, there is no such thing as side lore. That is a semantic distinction one developer tried to float to justify exclusionary design – nothing more. These are stories that take place in the world of Tyria and involve characters/settings/etc in that world. And, they are stories players are interested in experiencing – that is what really matters. You could just as easily call all of the stories in the game side stories since there are several story arcs that have started or played out since the game started.

It’s 100% exclusionary. I don’t get the hero vibe from that content, so I’m excluded from being a hero.

Sure, I could get the lore from pressing 1 through the content, but that’s not the same as experiencing a heroic adventure.

… or, maybe it’s ok that guild wars 2 has a lot of content across all experience levels. Different strokes for different folks.

When you’re kicked from the map for playing a toon you enjoy, then you can call it exclusionary.

You are trying to make this a this or that/black and white argument (with failed sarcasm) when it really isn’t.

An MMO isnt a linear storyline where we follow the hero down a preset path. Instead, it is a living world and environment built around two things – the individual player and the community. It is ArenaNet’s task to make the player and the community feel like the main focus of that world – the heroes of Tyria.

Raids have taken that away from a segment of the population. That build and playstyle that Sarah put hours of love and attention into making uniquely hers felt like that hero. Now, with the addition of restrictively designed raids, that character is a second class hero – able to take on and defeat all of the terrors of the world – except for the worst of the worst.

I know there are a lot of people that don’t play that way – that take min-maxing and being the highest performing character possibly very seriously. And there is nothing wrong with that. There should be content that pushes their limits.

But for the others – for players like Sarah – the current game environment is shattering that sense of epic heroism. And that is both disheartening and un-fun.

So, yes, you can be the best of the best in the game. Have fun min maxing and pushing the math of the game to the limits. But, please realize that there are other kinds of players out there as well – an entire community of players that need that immersive heroic feel (even if you don’t). It is about realizing the world doesnt revolve around a single kind of player – that, ESPECIALLY at end game and ESPECIALLY in the are designed to provide the most epic experience – varying levels of accessibility are critical to the game’s success.

Blaeys.3102:

Absurdo.8309:

Blaeys.3102:

Absurdo.8309:

On the flip side, I don’t feel like a hero in the living story, because it’s too easy. Where’s the hard mode draconis mons?

There’s plenty of content to go around. It sounds selfish when you request that every single piece of lore cater to every player.

Plus, this is some side lore, not even the main story of guild wars 2.

First, it most definitely isnt selfish. Your example is faulty. The difference between Draconis Mons and the raids is that the Draconis Mons experience is not exclusionary in any sense. The same cannot be said of of the raid experience where off builds or playstyles result in extreme levels of frustration. And, if there were a way to include harder content in open world in a way that made sense, I would be all for it.

Second, there is no such thing as side lore. That is a semantic distinction one developer tried to float to justify exclusionary design – nothing more. These are stories that take place in the world of Tyria and involve characters/settings/etc in that world. And, they are stories players are interested in experiencing – that is what really matters. You could just as easily call all of the stories in the game side stories since there are several story arcs that have started or played out since the game started.

It’s 100% exclusionary. I don’t get the hero vibe from that content, so I’m excluded from being a hero.

Sure, I could get the lore from pressing 1 through the content, but that’s not the same as experiencing a heroic adventure.

… or, maybe it’s ok that guild wars 2 has a lot of content across all experience levels. Different strokes for different folks.

When you’re kicked from the map for playing a toon you enjoy, then you can call it exclusionary.

You are trying to make this a this or that/black and white argument (with failed sarcasm) when it really isn’t.

An MMO isnt a linear storyline where we follow the hero down a preset path. Instead, it is a living world and environment built around two things – the individual player and the community. It is ArenaNet’s task to make the player and the community feel like the main focus of that world – the heroes of Tyria.

Raids have taken that away from a segment of the population. That build and playstyle that Sarah put hours of love and attention into making uniquely hers felt like that hero. Now, with the addition of restrictively designed raids, that character is a second class hero – able to take on and defeat all of the terrors of the world – except for the worst of the worst.

I know there are a lot of people that don’t play that way – that take min-maxing and being the highest performing character possibly very seriously. And there is nothing wrong with that. There should be content that pushes their limits.

But for the others – for players like Sarah – the current game environment is shattering that sense of epic heroism. And that is both disheartening and un-fun.

So, yes, you can be the best of the best in the game. Have fun min maxing and pushing the math of the game to the limits. But, please realize that there are other kinds of players out there as well – an entire community of players that need that immersive heroic feel (even if you don’t). It is about realizing the world doesnt revolve around a single kind of player – that, ESPECIALLY at end game and ESPECIALLY in the are designed to provide the most epic experience – varying levels of accessibility are critical to the game’s success.

You are, again, ignoring the other side.

Content can be too easy. Raids and fractals keep me in the game, not the living story or the new maps. Because that content is too easy and boring. 100% serious here, I am absolutely excluded from some of the easy content, because it’s so boring I can’t bring myself to play it.

But I don’t demand that every piece of content have a hard mode variant. I recognize there are players who like this content. I say good on them.

But your position is selfish. All content must be easy.

I’m actually fine with easy mode raids, with no rewards. But only if: (1) the living world team works on it, or (2) the raid team gets more members to offset the work involved.

But I don’t think your hypothetical players want that.

Finally, no one is excluding people from the content. You can go in right now. Nothing is stopping you.

I don’t believe that an easy mode raid is needed. I very much believe that not all content is or ought to be for everyone. However, Djinn is correct that the combination of raid design and player tendencies do mean that raids are exclusionary in a way that open world content is not. No one is asking for LI, specific builds, specific gear or anything else to allow people into open world content.

While people like Djinn could start their own groups, that is also going to be problematic with raids (unlike dungeons). People are going to expect someone who starts a raid group to know what they’re doing and to be competent with regard to playing in the content. When it becomes apparent that is not the case, people are going to bail and look for a different group. Even those who cannot get into other groups are going to bail.

The issue comes down to commitment. People who are really committed to raids are raiding. Players new to raiding and who have the commitment get themselves geared up and join training runs, wherein they get the experience.

The people asking for more accessibility are less committed. Commitment is necessary to push through adversity. Adversity (i.e., the possibility that an inexperienced group is going to face wiping a lot in order to learn) is a part of raid design. While there is some possibility of failure in open world, the possibility is much lower.

Absurdo.8309:

Blaeys.3102:

Absurdo.8309:

Blaeys.3102:

Absurdo.8309:

On the flip side, I don’t feel like a hero in the living story, because it’s too easy. Where’s the hard mode draconis mons?

There’s plenty of content to go around. It sounds selfish when you request that every single piece of lore cater to every player.

Plus, this is some side lore, not even the main story of guild wars 2.

First, it most definitely isnt selfish. Your example is faulty. The difference between Draconis Mons and the raids is that the Draconis Mons experience is not exclusionary in any sense. The same cannot be said of of the raid experience where off builds or playstyles result in extreme levels of frustration. And, if there were a way to include harder content in open world in a way that made sense, I would be all for it.

Second, there is no such thing as side lore. That is a semantic distinction one developer tried to float to justify exclusionary design – nothing more. These are stories that take place in the world of Tyria and involve characters/settings/etc in that world. And, they are stories players are interested in experiencing – that is what really matters. You could just as easily call all of the stories in the game side stories since there are several story arcs that have started or played out since the game started.

It’s 100% exclusionary. I don’t get the hero vibe from that content, so I’m excluded from being a hero.

Sure, I could get the lore from pressing 1 through the content, but that’s not the same as experiencing a heroic adventure.

… or, maybe it’s ok that guild wars 2 has a lot of content across all experience levels. Different strokes for different folks.

When you’re kicked from the map for playing a toon you enjoy, then you can call it exclusionary.

You are trying to make this a this or that/black and white argument (with failed sarcasm) when it really isn’t.

An MMO isnt a linear storyline where we follow the hero down a preset path. Instead, it is a living world and environment built around two things – the individual player and the community. It is ArenaNet’s task to make the player and the community feel like the main focus of that world – the heroes of Tyria.

Raids have taken that away from a segment of the population. That build and playstyle that Sarah put hours of love and attention into making uniquely hers felt like that hero. Now, with the addition of restrictively designed raids, that character is a second class hero – able to take on and defeat all of the terrors of the world – except for the worst of the worst.

I know there are a lot of people that don’t play that way – that take min-maxing and being the highest performing character possibly very seriously. And there is nothing wrong with that. There should be content that pushes their limits.

But for the others – for players like Sarah – the current game environment is shattering that sense of epic heroism. And that is both disheartening and un-fun.

So, yes, you can be the best of the best in the game. Have fun min maxing and pushing the math of the game to the limits. But, please realize that there are other kinds of players out there as well – an entire community of players that need that immersive heroic feel (even if you don’t). It is about realizing the world doesnt revolve around a single kind of player – that, ESPECIALLY at end game and ESPECIALLY in the are designed to provide the most epic experience – varying levels of accessibility are critical to the game’s success.

You are, again, ignoring the other side.

Content can be too easy. Raids and fractals keep me in the game, not the living story or the new maps. Because that content is too easy and boring. 100% serious here, I am absolutely excluded from some of the easy content, because it’s so boring I can’t bring myself to play it.

But I don’t demand that every piece of content have a hard mode variant. I recognize there are players who like this content. I say good on them.

But your position is selfish. All content must be easy.

I’m actually fine with easy mode raids, with no rewards. But only if: (1) the living world team works on it, or (2) the raid team gets more members to offset the work involved.

But I don’t think your hypothetical players want that.

Finally, no one is excluding people from the content. You can go in right now. Nothing is stopping you.

You have the same feelings as me, content being exclusive for being to hard so some people cant bring themselves to “get better” the opposite is true as well, content being too easy so people like you and me cant bring themselves to bear with the boredom of said content so we cant play it either.

So the people saying that all content should be easy are being selfish, they want all the content for themselves.

To be fair there is a difference between content that you decide not to do and content that other people decide you can’t do. Suppose for whatever reason even after “gitting gud” that person is still not at the standard for raids. Even though they really want to do the raid they might not be able to do so if no team will ever accept them. If you decide that easy content is beneath you then the only person who’s restricting you is yourself.

MerlinGamer.7410:

To be fair there is a difference between content that you decide not to do and content that other people decide you can’t do. Suppose for whatever reason even after “gitting gud” that person is still not at the standard for raids. Even though they really want to do the raid they might not be able to do so if no team will ever accept them. If you decide that easy content is beneath you then the only person who’s restricting you is yourself.

You mean learning simple mechanics? Since hat is the only thing the majority of people fail at in Raids, since the dps requirements are extremely low on the majority of bosses, there isn’t really any git gud aspect besides learning simple mechanics and role. Take by for example at the most 7 out of 10 people need to maintain 7620 dps to kill him with 1 minute on the enrage timer….. most people don’t even come close to hitting the enrage timer….they mostly fail to not paying attention.

Just AAing some classes can maintain 3-5k dps….. let that sink in

MerlinGamer.7410:

I think this is a good idea, and I really don’t understand the objections.

The OP is asking for a completely separate mode with separate rewards. Your raiding experience will not be changed at all as you can just click on hard mode. If the original point was to nerf the difficulty across the board of raids then I would be with you in objecting but I don’t see the harm of a completely separate box that aims to be more inclusive.
If you buy an expansion pack then you are paying for the development cycle of that expansion pack. If part of that development cycle is based on raids then you are getting a worse deal on that pack if you are someone who doesn’t raid then someone who can enjoy all the content.

As someone who doesn’t raid, let me give you an objective view of how this debate has developed:

When raids were first released people complained about them being too hard. Keep in mind people also used to complain vistas were too difficult, and we even had people whining about dungeon difficulty at launch.

At first, some raiders pushed back against the idea of needing an easy mode, but many more said “yes I think it would be good to have an easy mode without the rewards leading to Legendary Armor.” Basically make it more like dungeon scale rewards. After this, many people complaining about raid difficulty turned the argument to “what no, we should still get legendary armor even playing on easy mode.”

That is why you see the argument you see now, so hopefully you will be informed going forward and not be confused. There are large swaths of non-raiders who want both the prestige of raiding but also to do it in a dumbed down brain dead mode.

Personally, I think it would be alright to see a dumbed down brain dead 5-man raid that has exotic gear to work towards and doesn’t share any achievements with the regular raid mode. Don’t call it a raid because that is an insult, just call it whatever the name for he raid is and explorable mode or something. I don’t deserve to unlock raid achievements and gear if I am not willing to put in the blood and sweat. Maybe some people see that as unfair, but too bad. Go play a game where you have the whole armory available to you at level 1 and don’t need to work for anything.

In any case, this is why you see this argument Merlin. Because it isn’t just a debate of whether an easy mode should exist or not. It turns into a debate then of whether easy mode should allow you to work toward Legendary armor and such. Personally I think if people want to play a dumbed down version of raids that’s would be as unchallenging and boring as dungeons, let them have it without the same rewards. I’d get to see the raid wing story then at least I guess, but I’d probably only do it once because it would be boring. Besides, I could already explore the maps in an open instance.

Also, two more points directed specifically at some silly things you said in your post (one that, now rereading, shows you have huge bias and are being intentionally obtuse):

1) Yes, raids were part of the expansion. Yes, everyone who bought he expansion has access to raids. No, a game developer doesnt have any responsibility to make the content easy enough for everyone who buys it to complete it. Sorry, but that is a terrible mindset. You bought it, you can access it, if you can’t complete it it’s on you.

2) Of course people like the exclusivity of it. Why are you acting like that is a bad thing? It has exclusiveness because it is difficult content. They go hand in hand. They enjoy it being exclusive and enjoy it being exclusive because it is difficult and they can overcome that and show that they are good at it. That is a normal thing and a big part of gaming. So you trying to use it to devalue their argument is hilarious.

Also, no one is blocking anyone else from content. It is super easy to find 9 other players to play with if you aren’t picky. Just advertise in lfg and map chat you are forming a raid party for new, inexperienced, or nonmeta players. Don’t call it training, just say all welcome. I promise you will find people.

Oolune.4357:

MerlinGamer.7410:

I think this is a good idea, and I really don’t understand the objections.

The OP is asking for a completely separate mode with separate rewards. Your raiding experience will not be changed at all as you can just click on hard mode. If the original point was to nerf the difficulty across the board of raids then I would be with you in objecting but I don’t see the harm of a completely separate box that aims to be more inclusive.
If you buy an expansion pack then you are paying for the development cycle of that expansion pack. If part of that development cycle is based on raids then you are getting a worse deal on that pack if you are someone who doesn’t raid then someone who can enjoy all the content.

As someone who doesn’t raid, let me give you an objective view of how this debate has developed:

When raids were first released people complained about them being too hard. Keep in mind people also used to complain vistas were too difficult, and we even had people whining about dungeon difficulty at launch.

At first, some raiders pushed back against the idea of needing an easy mode, but many more said “yes I think it would be good to have an easy mode without the rewards leading to Legendary Armor.” Basically make it more like dungeon scale rewards. After this, many people complaining about raid difficulty turned the argument to “what no, we should still get legendary armor even playing on easy mode.”

That is why you see the argument you see now, so hopefully you will be informed going forward and not be confused. There are large swaths of non-raiders who want both the prestige of raiding but also to do it in a dumbed down brain dead mode.

Personally, I think it would be alright to see a dumbed down brain dead 5-man raid that has exotic gear to work towards and doesn’t share any achievements with the regular raid mode. Don’t call it a raid because that is an insult, just call it whatever the name for he raid is and explorable mode or something. I don’t deserve to unlock raid achievements and gear if I am not willing to put in the blood and sweat. Maybe some people see that as unfair, but too bad. Go play a game where you have the whole armory available to you at level 1 and don’t need to work for anything.

In any case, this is why you see this argument Merlin. Because it isn’t just a debate of whether an easy mode should exist or not. It turns into a debate then of whether easy mode should allow you to work toward Legendary armor and such. Personally I think if people want to play a dumbed down version of raids that’s would be as unchallenging and boring as dungeons, let them have it without the same rewards. I’d get to see the raid wing story then at least I guess, but I’d probably only do it once because it would be boring. Besides, I could already explore the maps in an open instance.

Also, two more points directed specifically at some silly things you said in your post (one that, now rereading, shows you have huge bias and are being intentionally obtuse):

1) Yes, raids were part of the expansion. Yes, everyone who bought he expansion has access to raids. No, a game developer doesnt have any responsibility to make the content easy enough for everyone who buys it to complete it. Sorry, but that is a terrible mindset. You bought it, you can access it, if you can’t complete it it’s on you.

2) Of course people like the exclusivity of it. Why are you acting like that is a bad thing? It has exclusiveness because it is difficult content. They go hand in hand. They enjoy it being exclusive and enjoy it being exclusive because it is difficult and they can overcome that and show that they are good at it. That is a normal thing and a big part of gaming. So you trying to use it to devalue their argument is hilarious.

Also, no one is blocking anyone else from content. It is super easy to find 9 other players to play with if you aren’t picky. Just advertise in lfg and map chat you are forming a raid party for new, inexperienced, or nonmeta players. Don’t call it training, just say all welcome. I promise you will find people.

It’s also clear that the lore argument is just an excuse, as no one complains about not being able to experience the lore of arah.

Absurdo.8309:

It’s also clear that the lore argument is just an excuse, as no one complains about not being able to experience the lore of arah.

Maybe it’s because experiencing it is way easier.

Oolune.4357:

At first, some raiders pushed back against the idea of needing an easy mode, but many more said “yes I think it would be good to have an easy mode without the rewards leading to Legendary Armor.” Basically make it more like dungeon scale rewards.

Actually, no. Even then the common reaction was “don’t let the casuals in, they will get the mud on our carpets”

Oolune.4357:

There are large swaths of non-raiders who want both the prestige of raiding but also to do it in a dumbed down brain dead mode.

Personally i don’t care about the “prestige” of raids. From what i see, for the most part the ones concerned about that (or even feeling that there is any prestige to be had) are just raiders themselves. And not even all of them (there is a number of raiders that ar in it just because they find it fun).

That’s what this is all about – a PR campaign in which raiders try to persuade non-raiders that this one specific content they run is somehow much more prestigious than the rest of the game. That it’s somehow unique for other reasons than just having current dev attention.

That is why many raiders do not want easy mode.

Absurdo.8309:

Oolune.4357:

MerlinGamer.7410:

I think this is a good idea, and I really don’t understand the objections.

The OP is asking for a completely separate mode with separate rewards. Your raiding experience will not be changed at all as you can just click on hard mode. If the original point was to nerf the difficulty across the board of raids then I would be with you in objecting but I don’t see the harm of a completely separate box that aims to be more inclusive.
If you buy an expansion pack then you are paying for the development cycle of that expansion pack. If part of that development cycle is based on raids then you are getting a worse deal on that pack if you are someone who doesn’t raid then someone who can enjoy all the content.

As someone who doesn’t raid, let me give you an objective view of how this debate has developed:

When raids were first released people complained about them being too hard. Keep in mind people also used to complain vistas were too difficult, and we even had people whining about dungeon difficulty at launch.

At first, some raiders pushed back against the idea of needing an easy mode, but many more said “yes I think it would be good to have an easy mode without the rewards leading to Legendary Armor.” Basically make it more like dungeon scale rewards. After this, many people complaining about raid difficulty turned the argument to “what no, we should still get legendary armor even playing on easy mode.”

That is why you see the argument you see now, so hopefully you will be informed going forward and not be confused. There are large swaths of non-raiders who want both the prestige of raiding but also to do it in a dumbed down brain dead mode.

Personally, I think it would be alright to see a dumbed down brain dead 5-man raid that has exotic gear to work towards and doesn’t share any achievements with the regular raid mode. Don’t call it a raid because that is an insult, just call it whatever the name for he raid is and explorable mode or something. I don’t deserve to unlock raid achievements and gear if I am not willing to put in the blood and sweat. Maybe some people see that as unfair, but too bad. Go play a game where you have the whole armory available to you at level 1 and don’t need to work for anything.

In any case, this is why you see this argument Merlin. Because it isn’t just a debate of whether an easy mode should exist or not. It turns into a debate then of whether easy mode should allow you to work toward Legendary armor and such. Personally I think if people want to play a dumbed down version of raids that’s would be as unchallenging and boring as dungeons, let them have it without the same rewards. I’d get to see the raid wing story then at least I guess, but I’d probably only do it once because it would be boring. Besides, I could already explore the maps in an open instance.

Also, two more points directed specifically at some silly things you said in your post (one that, now rereading, shows you have huge bias and are being intentionally obtuse):

1) Yes, raids were part of the expansion. Yes, everyone who bought he expansion has access to raids. No, a game developer doesnt have any responsibility to make the content easy enough for everyone who buys it to complete it. Sorry, but that is a terrible mindset. You bought it, you can access it, if you can’t complete it it’s on you.

2) Of course people like the exclusivity of it. Why are you acting like that is a bad thing? It has exclusiveness because it is difficult content. They go hand in hand. They enjoy it being exclusive and enjoy it being exclusive because it is difficult and they can overcome that and show that they are good at it. That is a normal thing and a big part of gaming. So you trying to use it to devalue their argument is hilarious.

Also, no one is blocking anyone else from content. It is super easy to find 9 other players to play with if you aren’t picky. Just advertise in lfg and map chat you are forming a raid party for new, inexperienced, or nonmeta players. Don’t call it training, just say all welcome. I promise you will find people.

It’s also clear that the lore argument is just an excuse, as no one complains about not being able to experience the lore of arah.

There’s a story mode for Arah, although I can see why someone might want to forget it. I believe there are people who really do want a raid story mode for lore purposes, just as I believe there are people who care about raids for the challenge and who care nothing for the rewards or prestige. That doesn’t mean I would bet on either group being of significant size.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Absurdo.8309:

Oolune.4357:

MerlinGamer.7410:

I think this is a good idea, and I really don’t understand the objections.

The OP is asking for a completely separate mode with separate rewards. Your raiding experience will not be changed at all as you can just click on hard mode. If the original point was to nerf the difficulty across the board of raids then I would be with you in objecting but I don’t see the harm of a completely separate box that aims to be more inclusive.
If you buy an expansion pack then you are paying for the development cycle of that expansion pack. If part of that development cycle is based on raids then you are getting a worse deal on that pack if you are someone who doesn’t raid then someone who can enjoy all the content.

As someone who doesn’t raid, let me give you an objective view of how this debate has developed:

When raids were first released people complained about them being too hard. Keep in mind people also used to complain vistas were too difficult, and we even had people whining about dungeon difficulty at launch.

At first, some raiders pushed back against the idea of needing an easy mode, but many more said “yes I think it would be good to have an easy mode without the rewards leading to Legendary Armor.” Basically make it more like dungeon scale rewards. After this, many people complaining about raid difficulty turned the argument to “what no, we should still get legendary armor even playing on easy mode.”

That is why you see the argument you see now, so hopefully you will be informed going forward and not be confused. There are large swaths of non-raiders who want both the prestige of raiding but also to do it in a dumbed down brain dead mode.

Personally, I think it would be alright to see a dumbed down brain dead 5-man raid that has exotic gear to work towards and doesn’t share any achievements with the regular raid mode. Don’t call it a raid because that is an insult, just call it whatever the name for he raid is and explorable mode or something. I don’t deserve to unlock raid achievements and gear if I am not willing to put in the blood and sweat. Maybe some people see that as unfair, but too bad. Go play a game where you have the whole armory available to you at level 1 and don’t need to work for anything.

In any case, this is why you see this argument Merlin. Because it isn’t just a debate of whether an easy mode should exist or not. It turns into a debate then of whether easy mode should allow you to work toward Legendary armor and such. Personally I think if people want to play a dumbed down version of raids that’s would be as unchallenging and boring as dungeons, let them have it without the same rewards. I’d get to see the raid wing story then at least I guess, but I’d probably only do it once because it would be boring. Besides, I could already explore the maps in an open instance.

Also, two more points directed specifically at some silly things you said in your post (one that, now rereading, shows you have huge bias and are being intentionally obtuse):

1) Yes, raids were part of the expansion. Yes, everyone who bought he expansion has access to raids. No, a game developer doesnt have any responsibility to make the content easy enough for everyone who buys it to complete it. Sorry, but that is a terrible mindset. You bought it, you can access it, if you can’t complete it it’s on you.

2) Of course people like the exclusivity of it. Why are you acting like that is a bad thing? It has exclusiveness because it is difficult content. They go hand in hand. They enjoy it being exclusive and enjoy it being exclusive because it is difficult and they can overcome that and show that they are good at it. That is a normal thing and a big part of gaming. So you trying to use it to devalue their argument is hilarious.

Also, no one is blocking anyone else from content. It is super easy to find 9 other players to play with if you aren’t picky. Just advertise in lfg and map chat you are forming a raid party for new, inexperienced, or nonmeta players. Don’t call it training, just say all welcome. I promise you will find people.

It’s also clear that the lore argument is just an excuse, as no one complains about not being able to experience the lore of arah.

There’s a story mode for Arah, although I can see why someone might want to forget it. I believe there are people who really do want a raid story mode for lore purposes, just as I believe there are people who care about raids for the challenge and who care nothing for the rewards or prestige. That doesn’t mean I would bet on either group being of significant size.

The lore for Arah Story and Arah Explorable Mode path 1 ~ 4 are different just in case you don’t know

IndigoSundown.5419:

There’s a story mode for Arah, although I can see why someone might want to forget it. I believe there are people who really do want a raid story mode for lore purposes, just as I believe there are people who care about raids for the challenge and who care nothing for the rewards or prestige. That doesn’t mean I would bet on either group being of significant size.

Yeah there are people, but the majority of the people who want an easy mode are more interested in the rewards, not the lore.

The dungeon story modes tell different stories than the explorable paths. Nobody complained about the lore in arah explorable.

MerlinGamer.7410:

Story telling in a video game requires experience, it’s keen esthetic. It’s not the same as reading a book.

You’re on to something here. It’s a different media. It relies on different approaches to create the intended emotions in the consumer. Challenge is one of these. Although I fully understand the gripe of the casual players who feel raids (and subsequently their story) are inaccessible to them, I honestly don’t think an easy/story mode of the raids would be a good solution. For the above reason. You’d be losing a major part of what makes you involved/emotionally invested in the story.

Astralporing.1957:

Oolune.4357:

At first, some raiders pushed back against the idea of needing an easy mode, but many more said “yes I think it would be good to have an easy mode without the rewards leading to Legendary Armor.” Basically make it more like dungeon scale rewards.

Actually, no. Even then the common reaction was “don’t let the casuals in, they will get the mud on our carpets”

Actually, yes. You clearly were not following the raid chaos closely in the beginning. And that is a funny way to view he raid community atmosphere in the beginning since I remember a very welcoming group that only ever had negative posts when others tried saying that about them.

Astralporing.1957:

That’s what this is all about – a PR campaign in which raiders try to persuade non-raiders that this one specific content they run is somehow much more prestigious than the rest of the game. That it’s somehow unique for other reasons than just having current dev attention.

That is why many raiders do not want easy mode.

You clearly have some kind of complex. An easy mode wouldn’t degrade that effort at all. It wouldn’t change that at all unless Legendary armor was also available in the easy mode. Which would be stupid considering the difficulty differences. I am sorry that someone has clearly wronged you in some horrible way, but you’re absolutely wrong about the people you are attempting to judge.

It is a normal thing to want to accomplish something in game and to have a reward to show off for it. The raiding community gives plenty of assistance to non raiders looking to start or just looking to experience the maps without he pain. If the community as a whole didn’t want to let others in, they wouldn’t share build information. They would start training guilds or hold training runs. They wouldn’t give advice on forums. You are making up an idea about them and attempting to cover them with it, but the truth is that if I decided I wanted to raid tonight I could go home after work, look up various guides and use information supplied by experienced raiders, and I could start the journey of completing the raid wings. Might it be hard? Yes, it is a video game for crying out loud. There is meant to be challenge some times, otherwise why not just make you level 80 with full BiS gear and access to all content from the beginning?

But I could do it, and I would know exactly how to accomplish my goals BECAUSE of information provided by the people you are ignorantly and thoughtless attacking.

Oolune.4357:

Astralporing.1957:

Oolune.4357:

At first, some raiders pushed back against the idea of needing an easy mode, but many more said “yes I think it would be good to have an easy mode without the rewards leading to Legendary Armor.” Basically make it more like dungeon scale rewards.

Actually, no. Even then the common reaction was “don’t let the casuals in, they will get the mud on our carpets”

Actually, yes. You clearly were not following the raid chaos closely in the beginning. And that is a funny way to view he raid community atmosphere in the beginning since I remember a very welcoming group that only ever had negative posts when others tried saying that about them.

Astralporing.1957:

That’s what this is all about – a PR campaign in which raiders try to persuade non-raiders that this one specific content they run is somehow much more prestigious than the rest of the game. That it’s somehow unique for other reasons than just having current dev attention.

That is why many raiders do not want easy mode.

You clearly have some kind of complex. An easy mode wouldn’t degrade that effort at all. It wouldn’t change that at all unless Legendary armor was also available in the easy mode. Which would be stupid considering the difficulty differences. I am sorry that someone has clearly wronged you in some horrible way, but you’re absolutely wrong about the people you are attempting to judge.

It is a normal thing to want to accomplish something in game and to have a reward to show off for it. The raiding community gives plenty of assistance to non raiders looking to start or just looking to experience the maps without he pain. If the community as a whole didn’t want to let others in, they wouldn’t share build information. They would start training guilds or hold training runs. They wouldn’t give advice on forums. You are making up an idea about them and attempting to cover them with it, but the truth is that if I decided I wanted to raid tonight I could go home after work, look up various guides and use information supplied by experienced raiders, and I could start the journey of completing the raid wings. Might it be hard? Yes, it is a video game for crying out loud. There is meant to be challenge some times, otherwise why not just make you level 80 with full BiS gear and access to all content from the beginning?

But I could do it, and I would know exactly how to accomplish my goals BECAUSE of information provided by the people you are ignorantly and thoughtless attacking.

This is by far the best thing i’ve read on these forums in a while.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Absurdo.8309:

Oolune.4357:

MerlinGamer.7410:

I think this is a good idea, and I really don’t understand the objections.

The OP is asking for a completely separate mode with separate rewards. Your raiding experience will not be changed at all as you can just click on hard mode. If the original point was to nerf the difficulty across the board of raids then I would be with you in objecting but I don’t see the harm of a completely separate box that aims to be more inclusive.
If you buy an expansion pack then you are paying for the development cycle of that expansion pack. If part of that development cycle is based on raids then you are getting a worse deal on that pack if you are someone who doesn’t raid then someone who can enjoy all the content.

As someone who doesn’t raid, let me give you an objective view of how this debate has developed:

When raids were first released people complained about them being too hard. Keep in mind people also used to complain vistas were too difficult, and we even had people whining about dungeon difficulty at launch.

At first, some raiders pushed back against the idea of needing an easy mode, but many more said “yes I think it would be good to have an easy mode without the rewards leading to Legendary Armor.” Basically make it more like dungeon scale rewards. After this, many people complaining about raid difficulty turned the argument to “what no, we should still get legendary armor even playing on easy mode.”

That is why you see the argument you see now, so hopefully you will be informed going forward and not be confused. There are large swaths of non-raiders who want both the prestige of raiding but also to do it in a dumbed down brain dead mode.

Personally, I think it would be alright to see a dumbed down brain dead 5-man raid that has exotic gear to work towards and doesn’t share any achievements with the regular raid mode. Don’t call it a raid because that is an insult, just call it whatever the name for he raid is and explorable mode or something. I don’t deserve to unlock raid achievements and gear if I am not willing to put in the blood and sweat. Maybe some people see that as unfair, but too bad. Go play a game where you have the whole armory available to you at level 1 and don’t need to work for anything.

In any case, this is why you see this argument Merlin. Because it isn’t just a debate of whether an easy mode should exist or not. It turns into a debate then of whether easy mode should allow you to work toward Legendary armor and such. Personally I think if people want to play a dumbed down version of raids that’s would be as unchallenging and boring as dungeons, let them have it without the same rewards. I’d get to see the raid wing story then at least I guess, but I’d probably only do it once because it would be boring. Besides, I could already explore the maps in an open instance.

Also, two more points directed specifically at some silly things you said in your post (one that, now rereading, shows you have huge bias and are being intentionally obtuse):

1) Yes, raids were part of the expansion. Yes, everyone who bought he expansion has access to raids. No, a game developer doesnt have any responsibility to make the content easy enough for everyone who buys it to complete it. Sorry, but that is a terrible mindset. You bought it, you can access it, if you can’t complete it it’s on you.

2) Of course people like the exclusivity of it. Why are you acting like that is a bad thing? It has exclusiveness because it is difficult content. They go hand in hand. They enjoy it being exclusive and enjoy it being exclusive because it is difficult and they can overcome that and show that they are good at it. That is a normal thing and a big part of gaming. So you trying to use it to devalue their argument is hilarious.

Also, no one is blocking anyone else from content. It is super easy to find 9 other players to play with if you aren’t picky. Just advertise in lfg and map chat you are forming a raid party for new, inexperienced, or nonmeta players. Don’t call it training, just say all welcome. I promise you will find people.

It’s also clear that the lore argument is just an excuse, as no one complains about not being able to experience the lore of arah.

There’s a story mode for Arah, although I can see why someone might want to forget it. I believe there are people who really do want a raid story mode for lore purposes, just as I believe there are people who care about raids for the challenge and who care nothing for the rewards or prestige. That doesn’t mean I would bet on either group being of significant size.

Arah story and arah p4 are entirely different paths. Not an easy mode of the same path.

Is Arah a fair comparison?

I’ve done Arah several times, its one of my favourite locations in the game and if I mention it in guild chat it doesn’t immediately start an argument. Also the tokens go directly into your wallet so there’s none of this 200+ LI or gtfo stuff going on with it.

MerlinGamer.7410:

Is Arah a fair comparison?

I’ve done Arah several times, its one of my favourite locations in the game and if I mention it in guild chat it doesn’t immediately start an argument. Also the tokens go directly into your wallet so there’s none of this 200+ LI or gtfo stuff going on with it.

You must never have been around when 11k AP or gtfo was around for Arab or any other dungeon.

Sly.9518:

MerlinGamer.7410:

Is Arah a fair comparison?

I’ve done Arah several times, its one of my favourite locations in the game and if I mention it in guild chat it doesn’t immediately start an argument. Also the tokens go directly into your wallet so there’s none of this 200+ LI or gtfo stuff going on with it.

You must never have been around when 11k AP or gtfo was around for Arab or any other dungeon.

I have been around that. I simply never joined those LFG’s. They were often still waiting for players when i was finished anyway.

For every elitist LFG out there, there was another, non-exclusionary that offered pretty much the same chances of succeeding.

That’s not how I remember it.

Feanor.2358:

That’s not how I remember it.

I have been pugging dungeons at that time, and generally avoided the high requirement LFGs like a plague, so i do remember it well. I never had a problem with finding a nonexclusionary group i could do the dungeon with.

AP was an awful gating system and that’s probably why you never see it anymore. The problem it had is you could grind completely unrelated content to bring it up. I suppose though that comparative to li, you didn’t have to go into arah to get the first ap point in the first place.

MerlinGamer.7410:

Is Arah a fair comparison?

I’ve done Arah several times, its one of my favourite locations in the game and if I mention it in guild chat it doesn’t immediately start an argument. Also the tokens go directly into your wallet so there’s none of this 200+ LI or gtfo stuff going on with it.

Yep. The difficulty is on – par. It doesn’t start an argument because people irrationally hate raids.

There are plenty of LFGs with no LI requirement too.

Astralporing.1957:

Sly.9518:

MerlinGamer.7410:

Is Arah a fair comparison?

I’ve done Arah several times, its one of my favourite locations in the game and if I mention it in guild chat it doesn’t immediately start an argument. Also the tokens go directly into your wallet so there’s none of this 200+ LI or gtfo stuff going on with it.

You must never have been around when 11k AP or gtfo was around for Arab or any other dungeon.

I have been around that. I simply never joined those LFG’s. They were often still waiting for players when i was finished anyway.

For every elitist LFG out there, there was another, non-exclusionary that offered pretty much the same chances of succeeding.

See you’re thinking of the time when we had LFG.

When people talk about dungeons and groups being hard it was before that when we had to use 3rd Party sites for LFGs.

But hey selective memories and all.

TexZero.7910:

See you’re thinking of the time when we had LFG.

When people talk about dungeons and groups being hard it was before that when we had to use 3rd Party sites for LFGs.

Used those for fractals only (and ran into no problems – but then the very fact that those people were also using a third party site was a filter already). For dungeons, using /s at the entrance was usually enough to get a group relatively fast. Again, no problems with elitism.

In fact, i haven’t even noticed the existence of high-req groups until LFG was a thing.

Even with LFG most of the random Arah pug groups without “exp” tag (or more) were disbanding after 15 minutes or later on. Either wiping constantly on the skip to the first boss and 2nd boss especially at path 1 or pre- and post-Alphard at path 2, or struggling hard at Lupi until a good player joined and soloed the boss for them. Man, I was calling Arah my living room, did all 4 paths on a daily basis and hell yeah, I was joining so many unexperienced group to get them their victory.
Of course, for AC paths or CoF p1/2 you were slightly slower than good groups and needed only a couple of minutes more but that wasn’t true for Arah where groups could still be in for 45 minutes to over an hour, even after the zerk change to power, precision and ferocity. I also met premade groups at Simin in path 4 that couldn’t kill her although everybody could after the latest adjustments. Remember that group because I had to leave since they were not able to deal enough damage plus they messed around with sparks. I tried my best in french but it was hopeless. Never forget. ^^

Raids must be so hard!! I did my first raid boss last night in a training group, had 3 Reapers, 2 DHs, 1 Chronomancer, 1 PS War, 1 Condi Thief, 2 Druids, and downed him in 5 attempts no one had previous experience outside of 1 player. Once the tank learned how to properly kite around the mechanics by the 3rd attempt it was in the bag, the group improved immensely, but yeah they are so hard that you have to use the Meta Comp and know the fight inside and out before going into /s

Sly.9518:

Raids must be so hard!! I did my first raid boss last night in a training group, had 3 Reapers, 2 DHs, 1 Chronomancer, 1 PS War, 1 Condi Thief, 2 Druids, and downed him in 5 attempts no one had previous experience outside of 1 player. Once the tank learned how to properly kite around the mechanics by the 3rd attempt it was in the bag, the group improved immensely, but yeah they are so hard that you have to use the Meta Comp and know the fight inside and out before going into /s

Some people find the mechanics easy-enough; many don’t. The first group has trouble understanding the fuss or emphasis on meta; the second group has trouble understanding why the first group thinks it’s easy.

And course, there are probably a lot more people in the middle, who think raids are about the right amount of challenge. And many of those will want to reduce that challenge as much as possible by insisting on a narrow set of builds/comps when they play with randoms, when they train, or when starting a new static group with no experience.

And some groups can succeed with masterwork gear, with six (or fewer) players, or weird comps (Sabetha vs 10 double-Quiped thieves) — that shows us that mechanics matter more than gear/comps.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Sly.9518:

Raids must be so hard!! I did my first raid boss last night in a training group, had 3 Reapers, 2 DHs, 1 Chronomancer, 1 PS War, 1 Condi Thief, 2 Druids, and downed him in 5 attempts no one had previous experience outside of 1 player. Once the tank learned how to properly kite around the mechanics by the 3rd attempt it was in the bag, the group improved immensely, but yeah they are so hard that you have to use the Meta Comp and know the fight inside and out before going into /s

Some people find the mechanics easy-enough; many don’t. The first group has trouble understanding the fuss or emphasis on meta; the second group has trouble understanding why the first group thinks it’s easy.

And course, there are probably a lot more people in the middle, who think raids are about the right amount of challenge. And many of those will want to reduce that challenge as much as possible by insisting on a narrow set of builds/comps when they play with randoms, when they train, or when starting a new static group with no experience.

And some groups can succeed with masterwork gear, with six (or fewer) players, or weird comps (Sabetha vs 10 double-Quiped thieves) — that shows us that mechanics matter more than gear/comps.

The group I was with were all first time players to Raids sans 1 who was a Reaper, the group was mostly pugs 6 out of 10. It wasn’t Meta comp in the slightest, one of the 3 reapers was the tank, we did not have 100% Quickness or alacrity uptime the ps couldn’t maintain 25 might stacks, players kept getting ported by Blues mainly the tank, greens were being missed, it took only 5 attempts, only about 45 mins total to clear the boss.

I’m just saying the raids aren’t as hard as people are trying to make them out to be, Meta isn’t needed, having prior is not needed(it helps but is by no means necessary, High dps isn’t needed, only one player was consistently over 10k dps, the rest were around 4-7k sand the Chrono and healer Druid.

VG was killed

Sly.9518:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Sly.9518:

Raids must be so hard!! I did my first raid boss last night in a training group, had 3 Reapers, 2 DHs, 1 Chronomancer, 1 PS War, 1 Condi Thief, 2 Druids, and downed him in 5 attempts no one had previous experience outside of 1 player. Once the tank learned how to properly kite around the mechanics by the 3rd attempt it was in the bag, the group improved immensely, but yeah they are so hard that you have to use the Meta Comp and know the fight inside and out before going into /s

Some people find the mechanics easy-enough; many don’t. The first group has trouble understanding the fuss or emphasis on meta; the second group has trouble understanding why the first group thinks it’s easy.

And course, there are probably a lot more people in the middle, who think raids are about the right amount of challenge. And many of those will want to reduce that challenge as much as possible by insisting on a narrow set of builds/comps when they play with randoms, when they train, or when starting a new static group with no experience.

And some groups can succeed with masterwork gear, with six (or fewer) players, or weird comps (Sabetha vs 10 double-Quiped thieves) — that shows us that mechanics matter more than gear/comps.

The group I was with were all first time players to Raids sans 1 who was a Reaper, the group was mostly pugs 6 out of 10. It wasn’t Meta comp in the slightest, one of the 3 reapers was the tank, we did not have 100% Quickness or alacrity uptime the ps couldn’t maintain 25 might stacks, players kept getting ported by Blues mainly the tank, greens were being missed, it took only 5 attempts, only about 45 mins total to clear the boss.

I’m just saying the raids aren’t as hard as people are trying to make them out to be, Meta isn’t needed, having prior is not needed(it helps but is by no means necessary, High dps isn’t needed, only one player was consistently over 10k dps, the rest were around 4-7k sand the Chrono and healer Druid.

VG was killed

And I’m saying raids are, in fact, just as hard as people who try them think they are.
So sure, meta builds are overkill and meta-comps aren’t needed for some people. But that’s not the majority of players.

Put another way, you (and your team) are better players than average. As a result, it might be hard for you to see that it’s difficult for others. Your experience isn’t typical.