Difficulty Level of raids
Raids must be so hard!! I did my first raid boss last night in a training group, had 3 Reapers, 2 DHs, 1 Chronomancer, 1 PS War, 1 Condi Thief, 2 Druids, and downed him in 5 attempts no one had previous experience outside of 1 player. Once the tank learned how to properly kite around the mechanics by the 3rd attempt it was in the bag, the group improved immensely, but yeah they are so hard that you have to use the Meta Comp and know the fight inside and out before going into /s
Some people find the mechanics easy-enough; many don’t. The first group has trouble understanding the fuss or emphasis on meta; the second group has trouble understanding why the first group thinks it’s easy.
And course, there are probably a lot more people in the middle, who think raids are about the right amount of challenge. And many of those will want to reduce that challenge as much as possible by insisting on a narrow set of builds/comps when they play with randoms, when they train, or when starting a new static group with no experience.
And some groups can succeed with masterwork gear, with six (or fewer) players, or weird comps (Sabetha vs 10 double-Quiped thieves) — that shows us that mechanics matter more than gear/comps.
The group I was with were all first time players to Raids sans 1 who was a Reaper, the group was mostly pugs 6 out of 10. It wasn’t Meta comp in the slightest, one of the 3 reapers was the tank, we did not have 100% Quickness or alacrity uptime the ps couldn’t maintain 25 might stacks, players kept getting ported by Blues mainly the tank, greens were being missed, it took only 5 attempts, only about 45 mins total to clear the boss.
I’m just saying the raids aren’t as hard as people are trying to make them out to be, Meta isn’t needed, having prior is not needed(it helps but is by no means necessary, High dps isn’t needed, only one player was consistently over 10k dps, the rest were around 4-7k sand the Chrono and healer Druid.
VG was killed
And I’m saying raids are, in fact, just as hard as people who try them think they are.
So sure, meta builds are overkill and meta-comps aren’t needed for some people. But that’s not the majority of players.Put another way, you (and your team) are better players than average. As a result, it might be hard for you to see that it’s difficult for others. Your experience isn’t typical.
It’s so funny people always try to belittle the “average” gw2 player saying they are bad, how do you know how skilled the “average” gw2 player is? But people are quick to say they are bads, so funny.
Yet it’s been proven time and again Raids aren’t the unconquerable, content they make it out to be, all it requires is paying attention to mechanics, nothing more nothing less, no super high dps is needed, no Perma Boons needednon eveyone, no Meta comp, all it takes is paying attention to mechanics, some bosses do need slightly higher dps but not too much higher.
Are you are saying the “average” player can’t remember 3-5 mechanics per fight or play their class in an average manner?
Are you are saying the “average” player can’t remember 3-5 mechanics per fight or play their class in an average manner?
Remember? Possibly. Remember and execute? Now, that’s something completely different. And you are severely overestimating what constitutes “playing the class in average matter”. Unless you have some really nonstandard definition of “average”.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Are you are saying the “average” player can’t remember 3-5 mechanics per fight or play their class in an average manner?
Remember? Possibly. Remember and execute? Now, that’s something completely different. And you are severely overestimating what constitutes “playing the class in average matter”. Unless you have some really nonstandard definition of “average”.
You think the majority of player are bads, so your view point is very skewed on what average is, Nd remembering them and executing the mechanics aren’t that much different, it took 5 attempts for 9 new to Raid players to figure out a semblance of a strategy that worked for them so hard right?
you don’t even need above average dps for the bosses, when you can Clear bosses with 9 people doing anywhere between 2-5 k dps and one person doing 10 shows as much, if 2-5k dps and 10k dps is above average when most Dps classes can achieve 2-5k with just AA alone so above avearage am I right? .
But go ahaead keep calling the average player bad since saying otherwise would defeat your argument for an easy mode, gotta love toxicity.
But go ahaead keep calling the average player bad since saying otherwise would defeat your argument for an easy mode, gotta love toxicity.
I think it needs to be said, that you should keep in mind when astral talks of average it’s average of his relative circle. The player base average is greatly above that because they actually care.
Are you are saying the “average” player can’t remember 3-5 mechanics per fight or play their class in an average manner?
Remember? Possibly. Remember and execute? Now, that’s something completely different. And you are severely overestimating what constitutes “playing the class in average matter”. Unless you have some really nonstandard definition of “average”.
You think the majority of player are bads, so your view point is very skewed on what average is, Nd remembering them and executing the mechanics aren’t that much different, it took 5 attempts for 9 new to Raid players to figure out a semblance of a strategy that worked for them so hard right?
you don’t even need above average dps for the bosses, when you can Clear bosses with 9 people doing anywhere between 2-5 k dps and one person doing 10 shows as much, if 2-5k dps and 10k dps is above average when most Dps classes can achieve 2-5k with just AA alone so above avearage am I right? .
But go ahaead keep calling the average player bad since saying otherwise would defeat your argument for an easy mode, gotta love toxicity.
The simple fact the DPS’s were dpoing 10k and under proves they are in fact bad, and this is coming from a meh player. The fact the PS cant keep up 25 might, especially if it was condi, is hell trash.
No one said content can’t be completed with bad players, but calling any of those players decent is an insult to those who can actually do well, or actual decent players. Ones that are no where ner perfect but dont do lower than my non buffed dps in a full party.
My ele and reaper can do 8-13k dps solo. If you can’t do at least that in a party of 10……
Are you are saying the “average” player can’t remember 3-5 mechanics per fight or play their class in an average manner?
Remember? Possibly. Remember and execute? Now, that’s something completely different. And you are severely overestimating what constitutes “playing the class in average matter”. Unless you have some really nonstandard definition of “average”.
You think the majority of player are bads, so your view point is very skewed on what average is, Nd remembering them and executing the mechanics aren’t that much different, it took 5 attempts for 9 new to Raid players to figure out a semblance of a strategy that worked for them so hard right?
you don’t even need above average dps for the bosses, when you can Clear bosses with 9 people doing anywhere between 2-5 k dps and one person doing 10 shows as much, if 2-5k dps and 10k dps is above average when most Dps classes can achieve 2-5k with just AA alone so above avearage am I right? .
But go ahaead keep calling the average player bad since saying otherwise would defeat your argument for an easy mode, gotta love toxicity.
The simple fact the DPS’s were dpoing 10k and under proves they are in fact bad, and this is coming from a meh player. The fact the PS cant keep up 25 might, especially if it was condi, is hell trash.
No one said content can’t be completed with bad players, but calling any of those players decent is an insult to those who can actually do well, or actual decent players. Ones that are no where ner perfect but dont do lower than my non buffed dps in a full party.
My ele and reaper can do 8-13k dps solo. If you can’t do at least that in a party of 10……
Did I ever say they were good? Did I ever say they were bad, did I ever say they were average? No.
If you read my original statement in regards to that team it was on the emphasis of Raids aren’t hard since with that non Meta non optimal performance group that was doing below average on everything beat a boss.
The person that got 10k was also rezzing everyone that was going downed to failing mechanics.
Again I never made a statement on if anyone in that group was bad good or otherwise, I just stated the facts of what happened and what the outcome was, and before that boss fight only one player had killed the boss only once before.
I was just pointing out the toxicity a certain player has for bashing all of the “average” players as that person puts are bad, and can’t kill a single boss.
You think the majority of player are bads (sic), so your view point is very skewed on what average is
And what makes you think your perception of average is not also skewed?
I think it needs to be said, that you should keep in mind when astral talks of average it’s average of his relative circle. The player base average is greatly above that because they actually care.
The question is, “Since average would be a skill level rating in the middle of the distribution, just how many players are in each rating band?” Your perceptions of what average is is more likely to be skewed than that of someone playing content in the open world, because (according to conventional wisdom, anyway) fewer players are going to be playing harder content.
You think the majority of player are bads (sic), so your view point is very skewed on what average is
And what makes you think your perception of average is not also skewed?
I think it needs to be said, that you should keep in mind when astral talks of average it’s average of his relative circle. The player base average is greatly above that because they actually care.
The question is, “Since average would be a skill level rating in the middle of the distribution, just how many players are in each rating band?” Your perceptions of what average is is more likely to be skewed than that of someone playing content in the open world, because (according to conventional wisdom, anyway) fewer players are going to be playing harder content.
Well seeing how I have PvXed for close to 5 years now between the multitude of guilds I have been in / am in I get to see a lot of the Player base, and how they operate, especially large PvE based guilds like GSCH, EG and a lot of other large guilds over the years, I have never isolated myself to like minded people, and I am sure the majority if not all of those players could down VG if they wanted to, so yeah based of of my large experience with this game I have a pretty good idea on the Average gw2 players skill capabilities.
I just did my first raid with an almost complete pug group that was their first time in Raids and we downed him in a few attempts, with very suboptimal dps and many mistakes, the boss wasn’t that hard once mechanics were learned in 5 attempts everyone had enough of a warm and fuzzy that we were able to down it in a completely non Meta comp, with suboptimal dps no one breaking to far over 5k besides 1 player.
Plus I don’t go around making broad blanket statements like calling the majority of players bad to justify getting a gamemode changed for personal rewards.
I think the solution to this is simply allow players who have never done content before to open up an empty raid instance so they can read all the lore bits. Because access to the story is what the controversy is, right?
Or are we going to move the target again? I assume certain people ignoring valid points in this thread is because they haven’t figured out exactly how to change the target are the debate in their favor.
Tarnished Coast
Oolune :: Engineer — Arrow Of Oolune :: Human Ranger -- Shadow Of Oolune :: Human Thief
Box The Turtle :: Human Warrior — Bolobuns Of Steel :: Human Guardian
Oolune :: Engineer — Arrow Of Oolune :: Human Ranger -- Shadow Of Oolune :: Human Thief
Box The Turtle :: Human Warrior — Bolobuns Of Steel :: Human Guardian
You think the majority of player are bads (sic), so your view point is very skewed on what average is
And what makes you think your perception of average is not also skewed?
I think it needs to be said, that you should keep in mind when astral talks of average it’s average of his relative circle. The player base average is greatly above that because they actually care.
The question is, “Since average would be a skill level rating in the middle of the distribution, just how many players are in each rating band?” Your perceptions of what average is is more likely to be skewed than that of someone playing content in the open world, because (according to conventional wisdom, anyway) fewer players are going to be playing harder content.
Well seeing how I have PvXed for close to 5 years now between the multitude of guilds I have been in / am in I get to see a lot of the Player base, and how they operate, especially large PvE based guilds like GSCH, EG and a lot of other large guilds over the years, I have never isolated myself to like minded people, and I am sure the majority if not all of those players could down VG if they wanted to, so yeah based of of my large experience with this game I have a pretty good idea on the Average gw2 players skill capabilities.
I just did my first raid with an almost complete pug group that was their first time in Raids and we downed him in a few attempts, with very suboptimal dps and many mistakes, the boss wasn’t that hard once mechanics were learned in 5 attempts everyone had enough of a warm and fuzzy that we were able to down it in a completely non Meta comp, with suboptimal dps no one breaking to far over 5k besides 1 player.
Plus I don’t go around making broad blanket statements like calling the majority of players bad to justify getting a gamemode changed for personal rewards.
It’s not a simple justification, it’s a undebatable fact. Most players of any videogame, are bad. We have years of stats proving this.
Blanket statement it may be, that doesn’t make it untrue. The simple fact you sit here and call it suboptimal DPS, then get mad at us and say it’s ‘elitist’ because we call such players bad is the funniest thing I’ve heard all day.
Hypocritical.
You think the majority of player are bads (sic), so your view point is very skewed on what average is
And what makes you think your perception of average is not also skewed?
I think it needs to be said, that you should keep in mind when astral talks of average it’s average of his relative circle. The player base average is greatly above that because they actually care.
The question is, “Since average would be a skill level rating in the middle of the distribution, just how many players are in each rating band?” Your perceptions of what average is is more likely to be skewed than that of someone playing content in the open world, because (according to conventional wisdom, anyway) fewer players are going to be playing harder content.
Well seeing how I have PvXed for close to 5 years now between the multitude of guilds I have been in / am in I get to see a lot of the Player base, and how they operate, especially large PvE based guilds like GSCH, EG and a lot of other large guilds over the years, I have never isolated myself to like minded people, and I am sure the majority if not all of those players could down VG if they wanted to, so yeah based of of my large experience with this game I have a pretty good idea on the Average gw2 players skill capabilities.
I just did my first raid with an almost complete pug group that was their first time in Raids and we downed him in a few attempts, with very suboptimal dps and many mistakes, the boss wasn’t that hard once mechanics were learned in 5 attempts everyone had enough of a warm and fuzzy that we were able to down it in a completely non Meta comp, with suboptimal dps no one breaking to far over 5k besides 1 player.
Plus I don’t go around making broad blanket statements like calling the majority of players bad to justify getting a gamemode changed for personal rewards.
It’s not a simple justification, it’s a undebatable fact. Most players of any videogame, are bad. We have years of stats proving this.
Blanket statement it may be, that doesn’t make it untrue. The simple fact you sit here and call it suboptimal DPS, then get mad at us and say it’s ‘elitist’ because we call such players bad is the funniest thing I’ve heard all day.
Hypocritical.
Not mad for one bahahaha, and I never said that he dps wasnt suboptimal lol Read what Astral said he said the average player can’t do that or do Raids, which is false. I agree with you Frost that is horrible dps, my response is saying that the average gw2 player can achieve that horrible dps and clear the bosses and that they are not so bad that they can’t do something that is mainly just following mechanics.
And I never called anyone an elitist, said some people are toxic bahahaha
Reading it’s an amazing thing.
TL;Dr
Anyone can clear Raids.
The average Gw2 player can do the pitiful amount of dps needed for most bosses to clear them.
This dps was horrible, boss still died
Most Boss encounters aren’t difficult
Raids for the majority are easy and rely only on mechanics
Raids aren’t as Hard as certain people try to make them out to be.
Are you are saying the “average” player can’t remember 3-5 mechanics per fight or play their class in an average manner?
Remember? Possibly. Remember and execute? Now, that’s something completely different. And you are severely overestimating what constitutes “playing the class in average matter”. Unless you have some really nonstandard definition of “average”.
It’s not “completely different”, it’s just a matter of practice. I doubt there are many people who can “remember and execute” on their first try. And even if you’re one of them, you’ll still likely need to do the practice as not all of your group mates would be.
Now, the strange notion you should somehow be able to execute all the mechanics flawlessly on your first attempt aside, the mechanics of the raid bosses in this game are simple enough. I’m pretty confident the vast majority of the players can handle them – remembering and executing – if they made the effort. It’s not an issue with the mechanics. It’s an issue with the vast majority wanting to skip the effort part.
I’m pretty confident the vast majority of the players can handle them – remembering and executing – if they made the effort.
Oh, i agree. It’s the time necessary for it that’s up for the question. Vast majority of players won’t be able to do learn VG in 5 attempts, 45 minutes, like in the example Sly gave. Not even close. Any group capable of that is way, way above the average.
Sly claiming that this is the average skill level of the GW2 community does not make it true.
That is what i was arguing against.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
I’m pretty confident the vast majority of the players can handle them – remembering and executing – if they made the effort.
Oh, i agree. It’s the time necessary for it that’s up for the question. Vast majority of players won’t be able to do learn VG in 5 attempts, 45 minutes, like in the example Sly gave. Not even close. Any group capable of that is way, way above the average.
Sly claiming that this is the average skill level of the GW2 community does not make it true.
That is what i was arguing against.
Why its way above average??
You say he cant claim the average skill level of GW2, while you do the same?
So its only valid if its support your side
Let me say this, Dark soul series, the new zelda are all way harder then GW2 raids, and they sold million of copies, so maybe the average skill level of the gamers are not bad as you say.
Or maybe they are? We dont know, so stop using this argument.
But without this argument you dont have an argument at all to support why raids should move their original goal right?
I’m pretty confident the vast majority of the players can handle them – remembering and executing – if they made the effort.
Oh, i agree. It’s the time necessary for it that’s up for the question. Vast majority of players won’t be able to do learn VG in 5 attempts, 45 minutes, like in the example Sly gave. Not even close. Any group capable of that is way, way above the average.
Sly claiming that this is the average skill level of the GW2 community does not make it true.
That is what i was arguing against.
Why its way above average??
You say he cant claim the average skill level of GW2, while you do the same?
So its only valid if its support your sideLet me say this, Dark soul series, the new zelda are all way harder then GW2 raids, and they sold million of copies, so maybe the average skill level of the gamers are not bad as you say.
Or maybe they are? We dont know, so stop using this argument.But without this argument you dont have an argument at all to support why raids should move their original goal right?
Are you implying Zelda is as mechnically intensive as a raid boss? Not even close. Generally there are not multiple overlapping mechanics in zelda games.
As for Dark souls, same ratio of bad players. Plenty of people play games they suck at. Just looks at league of legends, and dark souls.
Or maybe they are? We dont know, so stop using this argument.
You might address that at Sky. He was the one that mentioned his experience, claimed it was representative of the whole community, and used it as an argument.
But seriously, do you too really think, that a group of 10 average gw2 players that’ve never seen VG before, is highly likely to learn the fight and down the boss in 5 atempts?
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Or maybe they are? We dont know, so stop using this argument.
You might address that at Sky. He was the one that mentioned his experience, claimed it was representative of the whole community, and used it as an argument.
But seriously, do you too really think, that a group of 10 average gw2 players that’ve never seen VG before, is highly likely to learn the fight and down the boss in 5 atempts?
Why is this the hypothetical? Why not 10 players who have watched a YouTube video of the encounter? Why not 10 players who have beat fotm 100? Why not five new players and five veteran players?
Your standard also makes no sense when compared to other content. Five unfamiliar players would similarly take forever to beat arah p4.
It’s not a good hypothetical, because it doesn’t mirror the game we’re in. Raids have been out for a while.
And even if you were right, you haven’t justified an easy mode. There’s plenty of easy content.
Generally one look at the lfg and u will find that things have shifted a lot since the release of leg armor meaning :
1) Lfg is packed with groups almost all day,i see so many training runs and generally people have become more lenient with requirements.Especially on weekends the amount of these runs is enormous.
2)Lfg requirements have dropped drastically. Apart from monday clears there are a ton of low LI runs or even no LI runs (experienced,know mechanics etc).Even though to my experience most of these runs have a 50% kill chance, it is an opportunity for those that dont have the experience to join in and play.
There has been a huge influx of new players in the raid scene the last couple of months regardless of being casual or hardcore or anything. I always thought that people complaining about raid accessibility are those that impose limits on themselves, either entitlement, dellusion or rl issues (work, time, family).
Unfortunately for those who still cry about story mode the fact that raids are only getting more popular shows how people are willing and able to invest the time and effort instead of qqing for difficulty scales and other “carebear” changes.
Even though I’m cynical enough to believe that the actual average skill level in GW2 is pretty low, where the average skill level for the entire player-base is is not really the point. PvE challenge is not a fixed point. Once players figure out mechanics and know what the AI is going to do, challenge devolves down to execution. Challenge comes from uncertainty. PvE content does not present uncertainty as the content ages.
Before that other game threw together LFR, what characterized raids was commitment. It took commitment to gear, commitment to sit through the process of organizing a lot of people, commitment to watch videos and read walk throughs, and most of all, commitment to try again after wipes. It’s commitment that turns this type of PvE content from a pastime to a hobby. If I had to say, I’d say that ANet wants raids to appeal to hobbyists.
As content ages, even harder content, it becomes more accessible. For one thing, there are more veterans, and more resources on third party sites. If it still takes some commitment to actually engage with that stuff, then so be it.
Why is this the hypothetical? Why not 10 players who have watched a YouTube video of the encounter? Why not 10 players who have beat fotm 100? Why not five new players and five veteran players?
Because of the claim that this situation was representative of average players.
Again, don’t ask me. Ask the person that introduced that example as an argument in a discussion.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
(edited by Astralporing.1957)
I still find it funny that some think that making a story (easier) mode would somehow be detrimental to the game. It could literally be a mote that gives non-standard boons (think outnumbered in wvw)…no substantial development time needed. A small amount of dev time would open up raids to a lot of players that otherwise wouldn’t participate in the content.
There’s really no downside except the possibility of some egos being infringed upon, and tbh who gives a kitten about them?!
Serenity now~Insanity later
I still find it funny that some think that making a story (easier) mode would somehow be detrimental to the game. It could literally be a mote that gives non-standard boons (think outnumbered in wvw)…no substantial development time needed. A small amount of dev time would open up raids to a lot of players that otherwise wouldn’t participate in the content.
There’s really no downside except the possibility of some egos being infringed upon, and tbh who gives a kitten about them?!
And wasted development time on content that will only be ran through once, slower development time on Raid releases(which would impact actual Raiders enjoyment).
I still find it funny that some think that making a story (easier) mode would somehow be detrimental to the game. It could literally be a mote that gives non-standard boons (think outnumbered in wvw)…no substantial development time needed. A small amount of dev time would open up raids to a lot of players that otherwise wouldn’t participate in the content.
There’s really no downside except the possibility of some egos being infringed upon, and tbh who gives a kitten about them?!
And wasted development time on content that will only be ran through once, slower development time on Raid releases(which would impact actual Raiders enjoyment).
Actual raiders eh? I can see where your position is and it’s the type I mentioned earlier. Seeing that the very same mechanic could be used for increased difficulty your point becomes moot as it would benefit both ends of the spectrum.
Serenity now~Insanity later
I still find it funny that some think that making a story (easier) mode would somehow be detrimental to the game. It could literally be a mote that gives non-standard boons (think outnumbered in wvw)…no substantial development time needed. A small amount of dev time would open up raids to a lot of players that otherwise wouldn’t participate in the content.
There’s really no downside except the possibility of some egos being infringed upon, and tbh who gives a kitten about them?!
And wasted development time on content that will only be ran through once, slower development time on Raid releases(which would impact actual Raiders enjoyment).
Actual raiders eh? I can see where your position is and it’s the type I mentioned earlier. Seeing that the very same mechanic could be used for increased difficulty your point becomes moot as it would benefit both ends of the spectrum.
Actual raiders are players that raid, the people that want easy mode don’t raid, pretty simple term there, and the easy mode people want the mechanics removed and dumbed down so much that they are meaningless.
And Raids have a specific target audience, the people that want challenging content and that is who raids and are called Raiders for them completing raids, people that don’t raid and want an easy mode aren’t Raiders…
And including will slow down development time for the people that are the target audience the current Raiders.
You are trying to say that people that don’t Raid are Raiders ok bahahaha
(edited by Sly.9518)
I don’t think you read the post b4 responding.
Serenity now~Insanity later
I don’t think you read the post b4 responding.
Who say raiders want a nightmare mode? Raider dont want difficulty slider.
Dont want easy mode, dont want nightmare mode. So no it wont benefit the two end of the spectrum.
I don’t think you read the post b4 responding.
Who say raiders want a nightmare mode? Raider dont want difficulty slider.
Dont want easy mode, dont want nightmare mode. So no it wont benefit the two end of the spectrum.
Who says they don’t? There are definitely players that intentionally do it already by limiting their number of players, gear, and/or builds. All of the mechanics are already in the game. It’s a solution that doesn’t require a lot of effort and addresses the issue brought up. It’s almost win/win.
Using the “wasting dev time” argument we could say that raids in general are doing just that seeing that those devs could be working on more populated aspects of the game. It doesn’t really hold water.
Minimal input for maximum output should always be considered and I think something like this does that nicely.
Serenity now~Insanity later
(edited by Essence Snow.3194)
I don’t think you read the post b4 responding.
Who say raiders want a nightmare mode? Raider dont want difficulty slider.
Dont want easy mode, dont want nightmare mode. So no it wont benefit the two end of the spectrum.Who says they don’t? All of the mechanics are already in the game. It’s a solution that doesn’t require a lot of effort and addresses the issue brought up. It’s almost win/win.
Using the “wasting dev time” argument we could say that raids in general are doing just that seeing that those devs could be working on more populated aspects of the game. It doesn’t really hold water.
Minimal input for maximum output should always be considered and I think something like this does that nicely.
More bodies on a project doesn’t mean increased productivity sorry that’s been proven, raids are able to push out consistent quality products with a very small team with a small scope, Open world PvE has more Devs and have less consistency funny isn’t it.
And adding single run through content is a waste of dev time, since no one will run it more than once for the lore since that’s all they want the easy mode for is lore.
I don’t think you read the post b4 responding.
Who say raiders want a nightmare mode? Raider dont want difficulty slider.
Dont want easy mode, dont want nightmare mode. So no it wont benefit the two end of the spectrum.Who says they don’t? All of the mechanics are already in the game. It’s a solution that doesn’t require a lot of effort and addresses the issue brought up. It’s almost win/win.
Using the “wasting dev time” argument we could say that raids in general are doing just that seeing that those devs could be working on more populated aspects of the game. It doesn’t really hold water.
Minimal input for maximum output should always be considered and I think something like this does that nicely.
More bodies on a project doesn’t mean increased productivity sorry that’s been proven, raids are able to push out consistent quality products with a very small team with a small scope, Open world PvE has more Devs and have less consistency funny isn’t it.
And adding single run through content is a waste of dev time, since no one will run it more than once for the lore since that’s all they want the easy mode for is lore.
What? I never said anything about adding people. Even if I were to, where the heck did you get that bit about adding people != increased productivity? If that were true there’d never be more than one person per job.
Also, since when would it be limited to a single run? There are a lot of people that play this game and they don’t all think alike. While one person might only want it for the story another might like it for another reason. You make it sound like the option to run it again wouldn’t exist. Think about story modes in dungeons. They still get run/rerun by vets and new players.
Serenity now~Insanity later
I don’t think you read the post b4 responding.
Who say raiders want a nightmare mode? Raider dont want difficulty slider.
Dont want easy mode, dont want nightmare mode. So no it wont benefit the two end of the spectrum.Who says they don’t? All of the mechanics are already in the game. It’s a solution that doesn’t require a lot of effort and addresses the issue brought up. It’s almost win/win.
Using the “wasting dev time” argument we could say that raids in general are doing just that seeing that those devs could be working on more populated aspects of the game. It doesn’t really hold water.
Minimal input for maximum output should always be considered and I think something like this does that nicely.
More bodies on a project doesn’t mean increased productivity sorry that’s been proven, raids are able to push out consistent quality products with a very small team with a small scope, Open world PvE has more Devs and have less consistency funny isn’t it.
And adding single run through content is a waste of dev time, since no one will run it more than once for the lore since that’s all they want the easy mode for is lore.
What? I never said anything about adding people. Even if I were to, where the heck did you get that bit about adding people != increased productivity? If that were true there’d never be more than one person per job.
Also, since when would it be limited to a single run? There are a lot of people that play this game and they don’t all think alike. While one person might only want it for the story another might like it for another reason. You make it sound like the option to run it again wouldn’t exist. Think about story modes in dungeons. They still get run/rerun by vets and new players.
Hmm so you didn’t say, “those devs could be working on more populated aspects of the game.” which would mean putting the Devs from Raids working on projects that already have dev teams working on them… which means adding bodies…
And I dont know anyone that reruns Story mode dungeons since they are only used to unlock explorable and have zero function outside of that.
The People wanting easymode say they only want it for the Lore so that’s what should get if it’s ever implemented, the lore and they will only run it once since there would be zero reason to run it again.
I don’t think you read the post b4 responding.
Who say raiders want a nightmare mode? Raider dont want difficulty slider.
Dont want easy mode, dont want nightmare mode. So no it wont benefit the two end of the spectrum.Who says they don’t? All of the mechanics are already in the game. It’s a solution that doesn’t require a lot of effort and addresses the issue brought up. It’s almost win/win.
Using the “wasting dev time” argument we could say that raids in general are doing just that seeing that those devs could be working on more populated aspects of the game. It doesn’t really hold water.
Minimal input for maximum output should always be considered and I think something like this does that nicely.
More bodies on a project doesn’t mean increased productivity sorry that’s been proven, raids are able to push out consistent quality products with a very small team with a small scope, Open world PvE has more Devs and have less consistency funny isn’t it.
And adding single run through content is a waste of dev time, since no one will run it more than once for the lore since that’s all they want the easy mode for is lore.
What? I never said anything about adding people. Even if I were to, where the heck did you get that bit about adding people != increased productivity? If that were true there’d never be more than one person per job.
Also, since when would it be limited to a single run? There are a lot of people that play this game and they don’t all think alike. While one person might only want it for the story another might like it for another reason. You make it sound like the option to run it again wouldn’t exist. Think about story modes in dungeons. They still get run/rerun by vets and new players.
Hmm so you didn’t say, “those devs could be working on more populated aspects of the game.” which would mean putting the Devs from Raids working on projects that already have dev teams working on them… which means adding bodies…
And I dont know anyone that reruns Story mode dungeons since they are only used to unlock explorable and have zero function outside of that.
The People wanting easymode say they only want it for the Lore so that’s what should get if it’s ever implemented, the lore and they will only run it once since there would be zero reason to run it again.
Yes I did say that, but not in the context you are trying to imply.
Every project has a level of DR. In terms of bodies that DR needs to be evaluated given a set of variables that make up the parameters. If you change those parameters then the DR needs to be reevaluated. In this case; adding modes (if you will) changes the parameters, DR would need to be considered on that basis.
The whole things boils down to the the result an amount of effort going into the modification would garner. If it would increase raid population by an amount that warrants the effort, there’s no reason not to.
Unfortunately none of us here have the information needed to see if it would be a warranted option. So what our discussion here entails is a difference of opinion. I just hope those who have the ability to weigh the option (not you or me)make it a consideration.
Serenity now~Insanity later
I don’t think you read the post b4 responding.
Who say raiders want a nightmare mode? Raider dont want difficulty slider.
Dont want easy mode, dont want nightmare mode. So no it wont benefit the two end of the spectrum.Who says they don’t? All of the mechanics are already in the game. It’s a solution that doesn’t require a lot of effort and addresses the issue brought up. It’s almost win/win.
Using the “wasting dev time” argument we could say that raids in general are doing just that seeing that those devs could be working on more populated aspects of the game. It doesn’t really hold water.
Minimal input for maximum output should always be considered and I think something like this does that nicely.
More bodies on a project doesn’t mean increased productivity sorry that’s been proven, raids are able to push out consistent quality products with a very small team with a small scope, Open world PvE has more Devs and have less consistency funny isn’t it.
And adding single run through content is a waste of dev time, since no one will run it more than once for the lore since that’s all they want the easy mode for is lore.
What? I never said anything about adding people. Even if I were to, where the heck did you get that bit about adding people != increased productivity? If that were true there’d never be more than one person per job.
Also, since when would it be limited to a single run? There are a lot of people that play this game and they don’t all think alike. While one person might only want it for the story another might like it for another reason. You make it sound like the option to run it again wouldn’t exist. Think about story modes in dungeons. They still get run/rerun by vets and new players.
Hmm so you didn’t say, “those devs could be working on more populated aspects of the game.” which would mean putting the Devs from Raids working on projects that already have dev teams working on them… which means adding bodies…
And I dont know anyone that reruns Story mode dungeons since they are only used to unlock explorable and have zero function outside of that.
The People wanting easymode say they only want it for the Lore so that’s what should get if it’s ever implemented, the lore and they will only run it once since there would be zero reason to run it again.
Yes I did say that, but not in the context you are trying to imply.
Every project has a level of DR. In terms of bodies that DR needs to be evaluated given a set of variables that make up the parameters. If you change those parameters then the DR needs to be reevaluated. In this case; adding modes (if you will) changes the parameters, DR would need to be considered on that basis.
The whole things boils down to the the result an amount of effort going into the modification would garner. If it would increase raid population by an amount that warrants the effort, there’s no reason not to.
Unfortunately none of us here have the information needed to see if it would be a warranted option. So what our discussion here entails is a difference of opinion. I just hope those who have the ability to weigh the option (not you or me)make it a consideration.
They made the decision the Devs stated they are happy with the difficulty of Raids and have no plans in the foreseeable future to add an easymode raid, this was stated not that long ago
(edited by Sly.9518)
And that changes nothing about stating our opinions.
Serenity now~Insanity later
Raids must be so hard!! I did my first raid boss last night in a training group, had 3 Reapers, 2 DHs, 1 Chronomancer, 1 PS War, 1 Condi Thief, 2 Druids, and downed him in 5 attempts no one had previous experience outside of 1 player. Once the tank learned how to properly kite around the mechanics by the 3rd attempt it was in the bag, the group improved immensely, but yeah they are so hard that you have to use the Meta Comp and know the fight inside and out before going into /s
Some people find the mechanics easy-enough; many don’t. The first group has trouble understanding the fuss or emphasis on meta; the second group has trouble understanding why the first group thinks it’s easy.
And course, there are probably a lot more people in the middle, who think raids are about the right amount of challenge. And many of those will want to reduce that challenge as much as possible by insisting on a narrow set of builds/comps when they play with randoms, when they train, or when starting a new static group with no experience.
And some groups can succeed with masterwork gear, with six (or fewer) players, or weird comps (Sabetha vs 10 double-Quiped thieves) — that shows us that mechanics matter more than gear/comps.
The group I was with were all first time players to Raids sans 1 who was a Reaper, the group was mostly pugs 6 out of 10. It wasn’t Meta comp in the slightest, one of the 3 reapers was the tank, we did not have 100% Quickness or alacrity uptime the ps couldn’t maintain 25 might stacks, players kept getting ported by Blues mainly the tank, greens were being missed, it took only 5 attempts, only about 45 mins total to clear the boss.
I’m just saying the raids aren’t as hard as people are trying to make them out to be, Meta isn’t needed, having prior is not needed(it helps but is by no means necessary, High dps isn’t needed, only one player was consistently over 10k dps, the rest were around 4-7k sand the Chrono and healer Druid.
VG was killed
And I’m saying raids are, in fact, just as hard as people who try them think they are.
So sure, meta builds are overkill and meta-comps aren’t needed for some people. But that’s not the majority of players.Put another way, you (and your team) are better players than average. As a result, it might be hard for you to see that it’s difficult for others. Your experience isn’t typical.
It’s so funny people always try to belittle the “average” gw2 player saying they are bad, how do you know how skilled the “average” gw2 player is? But people are quick to say they are bads, so funny.
Yet it’s been proven time and again Raids aren’t the unconquerable, content they make it out to be, all it requires is paying attention to mechanics, nothing more nothing less, no super high dps is needed, no Perma Boons needednon eveyone, no Meta comp, all it takes is paying attention to mechanics, some bosses do need slightly higher dps but not too much higher.
Are you are saying the “average” player can’t remember 3-5 mechanics per fight or play their class in an average manner?
What are you on about? I’m not belittling the average player, I’m complimenting you and your team. In PvE meta events, hero challenges, and the like, we have plenty of opportunity to see how the typical player approaches mechanics. We see folks pushing foes away out of AoE circles, having trouble breaking defiance, and trouble avoiding the worst mechanics.
I don’t think that makes the typical “bad” — that makes them “typical”.
As I’ve said many times, it’s really hard for good players to realize that they are better than the typical player. And it’s hard for people who don’t understand game mechanics to understand why good players think they are easy. That’s got nothing to with having a low opinion or a high opinion — that’s part of the human condition.
John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”
Raids must be so hard!! I did my first raid boss last night in a training group, had 3 Reapers, 2 DHs, 1 Chronomancer, 1 PS War, 1 Condi Thief, 2 Druids, and downed him in 5 attempts no one had previous experience outside of 1 player. Once the tank learned how to properly kite around the mechanics by the 3rd attempt it was in the bag, the group improved immensely, but yeah they are so hard that you have to use the Meta Comp and know the fight inside and out before going into /s
Some people find the mechanics easy-enough; many don’t. The first group has trouble understanding the fuss or emphasis on meta; the second group has trouble understanding why the first group thinks it’s easy.
And course, there are probably a lot more people in the middle, who think raids are about the right amount of challenge. And many of those will want to reduce that challenge as much as possible by insisting on a narrow set of builds/comps when they play with randoms, when they train, or when starting a new static group with no experience.
And some groups can succeed with masterwork gear, with six (or fewer) players, or weird comps (Sabetha vs 10 double-Quiped thieves) — that shows us that mechanics matter more than gear/comps.
The group I was with were all first time players to Raids sans 1 who was a Reaper, the group was mostly pugs 6 out of 10. It wasn’t Meta comp in the slightest, one of the 3 reapers was the tank, we did not have 100% Quickness or alacrity uptime the ps couldn’t maintain 25 might stacks, players kept getting ported by Blues mainly the tank, greens were being missed, it took only 5 attempts, only about 45 mins total to clear the boss.
I’m just saying the raids aren’t as hard as people are trying to make them out to be, Meta isn’t needed, having prior is not needed(it helps but is by no means necessary, High dps isn’t needed, only one player was consistently over 10k dps, the rest were around 4-7k sand the Chrono and healer Druid.
VG was killed
And I’m saying raids are, in fact, just as hard as people who try them think they are.
So sure, meta builds are overkill and meta-comps aren’t needed for some people. But that’s not the majority of players.Put another way, you (and your team) are better players than average. As a result, it might be hard for you to see that it’s difficult for others. Your experience isn’t typical.
It’s so funny people always try to belittle the “average” gw2 player saying they are bad, how do you know how skilled the “average” gw2 player is? But people are quick to say they are bads, so funny.
Yet it’s been proven time and again Raids aren’t the unconquerable, content they make it out to be, all it requires is paying attention to mechanics, nothing more nothing less, no super high dps is needed, no Perma Boons needednon eveyone, no Meta comp, all it takes is paying attention to mechanics, some bosses do need slightly higher dps but not too much higher.
Are you are saying the “average” player can’t remember 3-5 mechanics per fight or play their class in an average manner?
What are you on about? I’m not belittling the average player, I’m complimenting you and your team. In PvE meta events, hero challenges, and the like, we have plenty of opportunity to see how the typical player approaches mechanics. We see folks pushing foes away out of AoE circles, having trouble breaking defiance, and trouble avoiding the worst mechanics.
I don’t think that makes the typical “bad” — that makes them “typical”.
As I’ve said many times, it’s really hard for good players to realize that they are better than the typical player. And it’s hard for people who don’t understand game mechanics to understand why good players think they are easy. That’s got nothing to with having a low opinion or a high opinion — that’s part of the human condition.
I never said you belittled the team I was in…. I said people belittling the “average” player….#reading. And again look at a lot of the posts when it comes to the “average” player most in this thread keep saying or implying that they are bad like yours and Astrals posts…..
The team I was in was doing extremely subpar performance and beat the Raid bosses with extremely subpar dps and mechanics awareness, most classes AA higher dps than the players were maintaining in dps…. and you are trying to claim that is above average performance….
I still find it funny that some think that making a story (easier) mode would somehow be detrimental to the game. It could literally be a mote that gives non-standard boons (think outnumbered in wvw)…no substantial development time needed. A small amount of dev time would open up raids to a lot of players that otherwise wouldn’t participate in the content.
In a prior thread on this very topic, Gayle Gray cautioned posters about basing arguments around assumptions as to just how much work would be involved in developing different modes for raid content.
Also, since when would it be limited to a single run? There are a lot of people that play this game and they don’t all think alike. While one person might only want it for the story another might like it for another reason. You make it sound like the option to run it again wouldn’t exist. Think about story modes in dungeons. They still get run/rerun by vets and new players.
I don’t think that you’ll find many raiders that are against a story mode with minimal rewards like no mag shards, no asc drops, no minis, no guaranteed exotics but white, green and yellow stuff. I’m also okay with that although in my opinion current raids aren’t that hard as some are trying to say.
The problem of such a story mode would indeed be the wasted dev time because people play it once and no, you can’t make a comparison with story dungeon modes because people are running them thanks to the loot per time, for example AC story, or to unlock explorable mode with their first char or alts. Same principle doesn’t work for raids. Besides that dungeon story modes are also rarely visited by players.
The only thing to get people to rerun raid story modes and to justify development time would be to increase the rewards but then you have to increase the current normal raid rewards as well, a thing Anet would never do although the actual rewards are not very superb, not to speak from running them more than once a week.
I would really like to have a profound solutions and valid ideas – not pipe dreams – on these problems before claiming that a story mode is so heavily needed although the lore can be obtained in a cleared raid instance.
Took me 3 runs of the dungeon to get the bug.
I still find it funny that some think that making a story (easier) mode would somehow be detrimental to the game. It could literally be a mote that gives non-standard boons (think outnumbered in wvw)…no substantial development time needed. A small amount of dev time would open up raids to a lot of players that otherwise wouldn’t participate in the content.
Right. What about balancing this? Still think “no substantial development time needed”? Because if you do, you’re wrong. I’m saying this as a game developer.
Hmm so you didn’t say, “those devs could be working on more populated aspects of the game.” which would mean putting the Devs from Raids working on projects that already have dev teams working on them… which means adding bodies…
Or it could mean adding devs where there’s not enough of them at the moment (we both know that there’s a lot of that around). Or maybe it meant adding devs on some new projects. Who knows?
For example, the dev(s) that worked on legendary armor could have done a set or two of armor (not necessarily legendary) for the rest of the game instead. So, here, already raids has cost us at least one set of armor.
The People wanting easymode say they only want it for the Lore
Noone actually says that. Even Blaeys, who is not concerned with rewards at all, still doesn’t want that mode for the lore alone, or even primarily for lore.
They made the decision the Devs stated they are happy with the difficulty of Raids and have no plans in the foreseeable future to add an easymode raid, this was stated not that long ago
I remember them saying the same about introducing raids, you know.
The team I was in was doing extremely subpar performance and beat the Raid bosses with extremely subpar dps and mechanics awareness, most classes AA higher dps than the players were maintaining in dps…. and you are trying to claim that is above average performance….
Because it is. If that was the norm, we wouldn’t have high req LFGs because there wouldn’t be any need for them.
The group you were in had subpar performance only according to your expectations. Your expectations however were really high compared to the average level of the community.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Or it could mean adding devs where there’s not enough of them at the moment (we both know that there’s a lot of that around). Or maybe it meant adding devs on some new projects. Who knows?
For example, the dev(s) that worked on legendary armor could have done a set or two of armor (not necessarily legendary) for the rest of the game instead. So, here, already raids has cost us at least one set of armor.
Or the game would be like it is now, just without raids. I prefer the version with them.
Took me 3 runs of the dungeon to get the bug.
Or the game would be like it is now, just without raids. I prefer the version with them.
Possibly. But then, i’s equally possible that the same would apply to the game with easy mode. And i would prefer the version with it.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Or the game would be like it is now, just without raids. I prefer the version with them.
Possibly. But then, i’s equally possible that the same would apply to the game with easy mode. And i would prefer the version with it.
I already said and I think most of the raiders agree: An easy mode without rewards besides whites, greens and rares is ok if the development would be done by the LS team assisted by one member of the raid team to prevent problems etc.
Took me 3 runs of the dungeon to get the bug.
Or the game would be like it is now, just without raids. I prefer the version with them.
Possibly. But then, i’s equally possible that the same would apply to the game with easy mode. And i would prefer the version with it.
I already said and I think most of the raiders agree: An easy mode without rewards besides whites, greens and rares is ok if the development would be done by the LS team assisted by one member of the raid team to prevent problems etc.
I would rather see the LS team just working on LS content with a new map.
I still find it funny that some think that making a story (easier) mode would somehow be detrimental to the game. It could literally be a mote that gives non-standard boons (think outnumbered in wvw)…no substantial development time needed. A small amount of dev time would open up raids to a lot of players that otherwise wouldn’t participate in the content.
In a prior thread on this very topic, Gayle Gray cautioned posters about basing arguments around assumptions as to just how much work would be involved in developing different modes for raid content.
I fully understand that about full fledged modes, but that’s not what I’m suggesting. I’m simply suggesting a buff which would essentially accomplish the same thing, but with much less dev time needed. Again all of the mechanics are already in the game. They could just add an option to a mote that gives players 10% reduction in dmg taken or something.
I will concede that idk how that would work with limiting loot.
Serenity now~Insanity later
I still find it funny that some think that making a story (easier) mode would somehow be detrimental to the game. It could literally be a mote that gives non-standard boons (think outnumbered in wvw)…no substantial development time needed. A small amount of dev time would open up raids to a lot of players that otherwise wouldn’t participate in the content.
In a prior thread on this very topic, Gayle Gray cautioned posters about basing arguments around assumptions as to just how much work would be involved in developing different modes for raid content.
I fully understand that about full fledged modes, but that’s not what I’m suggesting. I’m simply suggesting a buff which would essentially accomplish the same thing, but with much less dev time needed. Again all of the mechanics are already in the game. They could just add an option to a mote that gives players 10% reduction in dmg taken or something.
I will concede that idk how that would work with limiting loot.
Do you really think groups fail fights like escort or MO because of damage? It’s always mechanics.
I still find it funny that some think that making a story (easier) mode would somehow be detrimental to the game. It could literally be a mote that gives non-standard boons (think outnumbered in wvw)…no substantial development time needed. A small amount of dev time would open up raids to a lot of players that otherwise wouldn’t participate in the content.
In a prior thread on this very topic, Gayle Gray cautioned posters about basing arguments around assumptions as to just how much work would be involved in developing different modes for raid content.
I fully understand that about full fledged modes, but that’s not what I’m suggesting. I’m simply suggesting a buff which would essentially accomplish the same thing, but with much less dev time needed. Again all of the mechanics are already in the game. They could just add an option to a mote that gives players 10% reduction in dmg taken or something.
I will concede that idk how that would work with limiting loot.
Do you really think groups fail fights like escort or MO because of damage? It’s always mechanics.
Sort of, yes, as I see them linked. When you say mechanics, which ones are you referring to?
Serenity now~Insanity later
Sort of, yes, as I see them linked. When you say mechanics, which ones are you referring to?
The ones that make you fail. You know, like not CC-ing the wargs at Escort, going through the whole squad with poison on Matthias, failing to go to VG greens, missing a bomb throw on Sabetha… need I give more examples?
Sort of, yes, as I see them linked. When you say mechanics, which ones are you referring to?
The ones that make you fail. You know, like not CC-ing the wargs at Escort, going through the whole squad with poison on Matthias, failing to go to VG greens, missing a bomb throw on Sabetha… need I give more examples?
Nope you’re good. A dmg modifier would give leeway for a lot of mechanics, but ofc not all. Since the ones that wouldn’t be effected aren’t the only ones, it still has the same effect for the most part. Unless ofc you are saying that those and only those mechanics (context of ones that wouldn’t be effected) are the reasons for all failure in all of raids?
Serenity now~Insanity later
Sort of, yes, as I see them linked. When you say mechanics, which ones are you referring to?
The ones that make you fail. You know, like not CC-ing the wargs at Escort, going through the whole squad with poison on Matthias, failing to go to VG greens, missing a bomb throw on Sabetha… need I give more examples?
Nope you’re good. A dmg modifier would give leeway for a lot of mechanics, but ofc not all. Since the ones that wouldn’t be effected aren’t the only ones, it still has the same effect for the most part. Unless ofc you are saying that those and only those mechanics (context of ones that wouldn’t be effected) are the reasons for all failure in all of raids?
Damage is almost never the reason for failure.
On VG, it’s failing to mind the green and blue circles.
On Sabetha, it’s failing the cannons.
On sloth, it’s failing the poison, mushroom, or shake mechanics.
On trio, it’s failing to mind the cage
On matt, it’s failing the many mechanics
On escort, it’s running into mines
On KC, it’s failing to kill the ghosts
On Xera, it’s failing to dodge and kill shards
On Deimos, it’s failing to manage the agony mechanic
On MO, it’s failing to avoid the spikes
On Sam, it’s failing to dodge or cc
On Deimos, it’s a failure from tank, hand kiter, oil, or tears
Gorseval is the only real boss with a dps check. Otherwise, groups of 10 would hit the enrage timer all the time.
Your easy mode would solve nothing. Several raids don’t have dps checks, and groups still fail. Any easy mode would need to be much more involved.