Serenity now~Insanity later
Difficulty Level of raids
Sort of, yes, as I see them linked. When you say mechanics, which ones are you referring to?
The ones that make you fail. You know, like not CC-ing the wargs at Escort, going through the whole squad with poison on Matthias, failing to go to VG greens, missing a bomb throw on Sabetha… need I give more examples?
Nope you’re good. A dmg modifier would give leeway for a lot of mechanics, but ofc not all. Since the ones that wouldn’t be effected aren’t the only ones, it still has the same effect for the most part. Unless ofc you are saying that those and only those mechanics (context of ones that wouldn’t be effected) are the reasons for all failure in all of raids?
Damage is almost never the reason for failure.
On VG, it’s failing to mind the green and blue circles.
On Sabetha, it’s failing the cannons.
On sloth, it’s failing the poison, mushroom, or shake mechanics.
On trio, it’s failing to mind the cage
On matt, it’s failing the many mechanics
On escort, it’s running into mines
On KC, it’s failing to kill the ghosts
On Xera, it’s failing to dodge and kill shards
On Deimos, it’s failing to manage the agony mechanic
On MO, it’s failing to avoid the spikes
On Sam, it’s failing to dodge or cc
On Deimos, it’s a failure from tank, hand kiter, oil, or tearsGorseval is the only real boss with a dps check. Otherwise, groups of 10 would hit the enrage timer all the time.
Your easy mode would solve nothing. Several raids don’t have dps checks, and groups still fail. Any easy mode would need to be much more involved.
Everyone of those mechanic failures results in dmg to the player, so reducing that dmg does give leeway. You have mistaken dmg reduction or modifier for only a dps check.
Missing the point.
Outgoing player damage, is not the cause for failure.
Not performing mechanics is, and you should be punished for not doing them. We get that you guys don’t like insta-gibs, or wipes but sorry that’s how you learn. If you can cheese your way through mechanics and not suffer than the mechanics may as well not exist as they are not reinforcing proper play habbits.
Missing the point.
Outgoing player damage, is not the cause for failure.
Not performing mechanics is, and you should be punished for not doing them. We get that you guys don’t like insta-gibs, or wipes but sorry that’s how you learn. If you can cheese your way through mechanics and not suffer than the mechanics may as well not exist as they are not reinforcing proper play habbits.
Uhm…I didn’t say outgoing dmg was, ya’ll keep saying I did. I said dmg reduction, which is a counter measure to the insta-gibs and wipes of the mechanics. For example: instead of being one shot downed you’d be hit to 5-10%. This still makes it punishing and encourages not being hit by it, but allows leeway.
Serenity now~Insanity later
Missing the point.
Outgoing player damage, is not the cause for failure.
Not performing mechanics is, and you should be punished for not doing them. We get that you guys don’t like insta-gibs, or wipes but sorry that’s how you learn. If you can cheese your way through mechanics and not suffer than the mechanics may as well not exist as they are not reinforcing proper play habbits.Uhm…I didn’t say outgoing dmg was, ya’ll keep saying I did. I said dmg reduction, which is a counter measure to the insta-gibs and wipes of the mechanics. For example: instead of being one shot downed you’d be hit to 5-10%. This still makes it punishing and encourages not being hit by it, but allows leeway.
If they perform the already extremely easy mechanics like 4 people in green circle they won’t take that damage… and Green Circle doesn’t instagib if no one is in it, it only does 90% of players Life…. and I think you miss the point of Instagib mechanics like Gorsevals World render….. you either do the mechanics or beat out the timer or anyone behind gets punished, if World render only did 90% damage player could ignore it completely and recover from the damage quite easily which negates even having that mechanic in the first place…..
And one more time Raiders are happy with Raids and their difficulty, Anet is happy with Raids and their difficulty. Since the two main factors for Raids existing are happy with Raids there is no issue…
While that is true, I don’t believe that would translate well to fights like escort, sab, or trio where it’s the npcs that are taking damage. Or on sacrifice mechanics like sam and mat, where the group’s lack of cc or missing the timing of ccs is what causes failures. It would help on some, but not all and considering these mechanics are present in all raid wings in one way or the other, anet would have to do more than put a damage reduction on players for easy/story mode.
While that is true, I don’t believe that would translate well to fights like escort, sab, or trio where it’s the npcs that are taking damage. Or on sacrifice mechanics like sam and mat, where the group’s lack of cc or missing the timing of ccs is what causes failures. It would help on some, but not all and considering these mechanics are present in all raid wings in one way or the other, anet would have to do more than put a damage reduction on players for easy/story mode.
Ty for the decent response. For some reason some of the other posters are not interested in discussion.
I agree and to that extent the mote could also offer other boons/buffs/debuffs that would address cc concerns. Each mote could have a specific aspect to it for the corresponding raid.
Serenity now~Insanity later
That might work. Not sure how much they should give though. If they give too much, they run the risk of making the encounter too trivial. Too little and there would be no difference than normal mode.
That might work. Not sure how much they should give though. If they give too much, they run the risk of making the encounter too trivial. Too little and there would be no difference than normal mode.
That I agree with. We’d want it to partially be a stepping stone to get those players into regular raids to help keep that population healthy. That imo would be the ultimate goal…to get more players into raiding.
Serenity now~Insanity later
That I agree with. We’d want it to partially be a stepping stone to get those players into regular raids to help keep that population healthy. That imo would be the ultimate goal…to get more players into raiding.
Trust me, people that really want to get into raid either have already found their way into them or don’t need a tuned down version. The (pug) meta has so much room for errors/mistakes from 1-4 players that you can easily carry or introduce new raiders to the existent content on the fly with short explanations – sometimes during the fight.
We killed 6 bosses 15 minutes ago with 1 player new to 5 of them and 2 more which were new to 3 of those bosses. Our group is far from being a speedrun or above average group + our main chronotank and 3 other starters weren’t with us in this run.
All you have to do to get into raiding is open your mouth and look out for opportunities.
Took me 3 runs of the dungeon to get the bug.
(edited by Vinceman.4572)
That I agree with. We’d want it to partially be a stepping stone to get those players into regular raids to help keep that population healthy. That imo would be the ultimate goal…to get more players into raiding.
Trust me, people that really want to get into raid either have already found their way into them or don’t need a tuned down version. The (pug) meta has so much room for errors/mistakes from 1-4 players that you can easily carry or introduce new raiders to the existent content on the fly with short explanations – sometimes during the fight.
We killed 6 bosses 15 minutes ago with 1 player new to 5 of them and 2 more which were new to 3 of those bosses. Our group is far from being a speedrun or above average group + our main chronotank and 3 other starters weren’t with us in this run.All you have to do to get into raiding is open your mouth and look out for opportunities.
And that is actually an issue upon itself. The population of raids like any content is heavily weighted to the front end…ie lots of players joining when content is released…then as time goes on the population dwindles, especially new players. New players (at this point) basically need to join groups that are willing to take them. There really isn’t a healthy influx of players. So instead of 10 new players joining up together, we get 10 new players joining 5-10 different groups. With only a certain amount of available groups the latter becomes restrictive in a sense.
This isn’t about individuals. It’s about the population of raids in general.
Serenity now~Insanity later
And the population of raids in general is fine. There are a lot of people that only log into the game for doing raids.
Took me 3 runs of the dungeon to get the bug.
Raids are by far the most healthy “mode” in the game, there arent complaints about quality or difficulty by the active raiding playerbase. Most people that complain are usually “tourists” in a sense that they dont really care about them, they just want to “experience” them whatever the hell that means…..so we’re talking about people with no experience whatsoever trying to make solid arguments about things they dont know.
Difficulty is one of those things. Surprisingly enough if u go into raids knowing your class and build inside out, learning the mechanics is gonna be a piece of cake. Problem is most of the newcomers dont commit any time to learning their own classes, dont listen to commanders, dont even answer when spoken to, completely clueless just hoping to get carried.That’s right, so so many people that wanna get carried and as soon as someone calls them out they instantly leave the group b4 they get any more attention.It’s like hiding behind your finger.
This is the playerbase that asks for difficulty scales, the entitled, the delusional, the lazy, the “stuck in the open world” mindset. And when no1 hears them they bring up the excuse that “raids have lore and i want it cause i paid for the game”. You paid for access to the game, not progression/completion which is by all means a personal commitment and not something to be catered by Anet.
You’d think by those responses that I didn’t mention “new players” multiple times.
As for that entitlement rant…….you can keep that.
Serenity now~Insanity later
I was talking specifically about the new players, u can read that in my post.
As for the entitlement rant, its one of the most harsh truths about the newer generation of players and very much connected to why they feel raids are not accessible.
It’s one and the same.
You’d think by those responses that I didn’t mention “new players” multiple times.
As for that entitlement rant…….you can keep that.
New Player – Raid
Raid – New Player
I think i see where your misunderstanding is.
Raids aren’t meant for NEW PLAYERS. That’s what the first 99% of the game is for.
I was talking specifically about the new players, u can read that in my post.
As for the entitlement rant, its one of the most harsh truths about the newer generation of players and very much connected to why they feel raids are not accessible.
It’s one and the same.
Because the MMORPG veterans all like raids soo much.[/sarcasm]
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
I was talking specifically about the new players, u can read that in my post.
As for the entitlement rant, its one of the most harsh truths about the newer generation of players and very much connected to why they feel raids are not accessible.
It’s one and the same.Because the MMORPG veterans all like raids soo much.[/sarcasm]
Raiders like Raids hence why there are Raids, majority of Raiders are veteran mmorpg players, but there are certain veterans * cough * cough * that want the rewards of Raids but with out putting in the full effort.
You’d think by those responses that I didn’t mention “new players” multiple times.
As for that entitlement rant…….you can keep that.
New Player – Raid
Raid – New PlayerI think i see where your misunderstanding is.
Raids aren’t meant for NEW PLAYERS. That’s what the first 99% of the game is for.
By new I mean new to raids in this game…ie those who either chose not to join while it had it’s population spike or a newer player to the game that’s just getting to raids who also didn’t benefit from the population spike.
Somehow I don’t think that’d be a good selling point for Anet, “Buy our game, but don’t expect to raid b/c you’ll be new to it.”
Serenity now~Insanity later
I was talking specifically about the new players, u can read that in my post.
As for the entitlement rant, its one of the most harsh truths about the newer generation of players and very much connected to why they feel raids are not accessible.
It’s one and the same.Because the MMORPG veterans all like raids soo much.[/sarcasm]
Most of the MMO veterans either raid or have raided at some point unless you are talking about the players that cant even clear t4’s after all these years.
Not to mention raids in their pure form were nothing like GW2. The gear treadmill was huge, the difficulty was brutal and full clears could take all day.
U can full clear GW2 in 2-3 hours. That is by far too ez compared to other games.So stop talking about raids when u yourself dont raid, dont have any experience with it and dont know what your talking about. If u ever watched any, any stream/video etc u will see that most veterans in this game either do raids/pvp/wvw cause everything else got boring really fast. And the rest of them are logging in for half an hour, mb kill a world boss and then go to the forums to complain how hard this game is.
You’d think by those responses that I didn’t mention “new players” multiple times.
As for that entitlement rant…….you can keep that.
New Player – Raid
Raid – New PlayerI think i see where your misunderstanding is.
Raids aren’t meant for NEW PLAYERS. That’s what the first 99% of the game is for.
By new I mean new to raids in this game…ie those who either chose not to join while it had it’s population spike or a newer player to the game that’s just getting to raids who also didn’t benefit from the population spike.
Somehow I don’t think that’d be a good selling point for Anet, “Buy our game, but don’t expect to raid b/c you’ll be new to it.”
No more like, don’t expect to jump into raiding instantly because that’s sane. Play the game, learn the game, find a group of players (guild) then raid. You see that’s the selling point. Playing the content, if you choose not to, that ceases to be an Anet problem.
No more like, don’t expect to jump into raiding instantly because that’s sane. Play the game, learn the game, find a group of players (guild) then raid. You see that’s the selling point. Playing the content, if you choose not to, that ceases to be an Anet problem.
And nor should they, but once they’ve played the game and gotten to a point that raids may be the next logical step, they won’t benefit like a lot of us vets did by having the population spike at the launch of raids. That was a time when it didn’t really matter if a few players left the group as there were plenty to fill the spots. I know I spent countless hours during that time and never really had the issues that players face now of finding groups that even stay together while learning. Granted when we learned there weren’t guides, but we had plenty of willing players to rough it out with. Now we either have dedicated groups or join exp only groups. Have you tried semi recently pugging with a new/ no exp needed group? I feel pity for them, spending hours to form a group only to have rage q’ers leave then have to spend hours more to only have the same thing happen again. It simply isn’t the same process now as it was when we learned.
Serenity now~Insanity later
No more like, don’t expect to jump into raiding instantly because that’s sane. Play the game, learn the game, find a group of players (guild) then raid. You see that’s the selling point. Playing the content, if you choose not to, that ceases to be an Anet problem.
And nor should they, but once they’ve played the game and gotten to a point that raids may be the next logical step, they won’t benefit like a lot of us vets did by having the population spike at the launch of raids. That was a time when it didn’t really matter if a few players left the group as there were plenty to fill the spots. I know I spent countless hours during that time and never really had the issues that players face now of finding groups that even stay together while learning. Granted when we learned there weren’t guides, but we had plenty of willing players to rough it out with. Now we either have dedicated groups or join exp only groups. Have you tried semi recently pugging with a new/ no exp needed group? I feel pity for them, spending hours to form a group only to have rage q’ers leave then have to spend hours more to only have the same thing happen again. It simply isn’t the same process now as it was when we learned.
I’ve joined plenty of pug groups, never had this issue. Lead my fair share of training runs too. You know what the real problem is as much as the next person and it’s not population. It’s people wanting to be carried through content for the rewards with minimal input.
No more like, don’t expect to jump into raiding instantly because that’s sane. Play the game, learn the game, find a group of players (guild) then raid. You see that’s the selling point. Playing the content, if you choose not to, that ceases to be an Anet problem.
And nor should they, but once they’ve played the game and gotten to a point that raids may be the next logical step, they won’t benefit like a lot of us vets did by having the population spike at the launch of raids. That was a time when it didn’t really matter if a few players left the group as there were plenty to fill the spots. I know I spent countless hours during that time and never really had the issues that players face now of finding groups that even stay together while learning. Granted when we learned there weren’t guides, but we had plenty of willing players to rough it out with. Now we either have dedicated groups or join exp only groups. Have you tried semi recently pugging with a new/ no exp needed group? I feel pity for them, spending hours to form a group only to have rage q’ers leave then have to spend hours more to only have the same thing happen again. It simply isn’t the same process now as it was when we learned.
I’ve joined plenty of pug groups, never had this issue. Lead my fair share of training runs too. You know what the real problem is as much as the next person and it’s not population. It’s people wanting to be carried through content for the rewards with minimal input.
You’re stuck in your bias. “They must want to be carried.” That has become evident of quite a few posters here. The reward deal has been addressed multiple times as well as the fallacy of everyone wanting to be carried. I can see I’m wasting my time with you…gday.
Serenity now~Insanity later
No more like, don’t expect to jump into raiding instantly because that’s sane. Play the game, learn the game, find a group of players (guild) then raid. You see that’s the selling point. Playing the content, if you choose not to, that ceases to be an Anet problem.
And nor should they, but once they’ve played the game and gotten to a point that raids may be the next logical step, they won’t benefit like a lot of us vets did by having the population spike at the launch of raids. That was a time when it didn’t really matter if a few players left the group as there were plenty to fill the spots. I know I spent countless hours during that time and never really had the issues that players face now of finding groups that even stay together while learning. Granted when we learned there weren’t guides, but we had plenty of willing players to rough it out with. Now we either have dedicated groups or join exp only groups. Have you tried semi recently pugging with a new/ no exp needed group? I feel pity for them, spending hours to form a group only to have rage q’ers leave then have to spend hours more to only have the same thing happen again. It simply isn’t the same process now as it was when we learned.
I’ve joined plenty of pug groups, never had this issue. Lead my fair share of training runs too. You know what the real problem is as much as the next person and it’s not population. It’s people wanting to be carried through content for the rewards with minimal input.
You’re stuck in your bias. “They must want to be carried.” That has become evident of quite a few posters here. The reward deal has been addressed multiple times as well as the fallacy of everyone wanting to be carried. I can see I’m wasting my time with you…gday.
Uh, sure am.
Because for those that want story apparently watching a video of it just wont cut their story needs. Talking to Glenna to view cinematics is also off the table. So please explain how it’s not Rewards or Effort based issues at this point ?
Educate me since i’m so blinded to the issues.
Totally agree with OP !!!
Myself I am a ‘on and off’ casual player, so more a single player sort of say.
I play for few months and after that not for few months.. this goes on since launch..
These raids are to kitten hard for casual payers like myself, I’m not steady active enough to stay in a guild which could clear the raid. And in Pick up groups i get kicked out because i don’t know the tactics of bosses….. Sigh
This is very frustrating, not so much for not seeing the raid but more for never going to complete the farm for legendary armor pieces.
The least A’net could do is make it an Very Hard single player experience for the casual players also. Just like that one boss in the Queens Gauntlet (Liadri the Concealing Dark).
That was fun and hard!
Yvilthi lvl 80 human Ranger
Yv Ilthi lvl 80 human Mesmer
Yv Ilthi lvl 80 human Mesmer
Because for those that want story apparently watching a video of it just wont cut their story needs. Talking to Glenna to view cinematics is also off the table. So please explain how it’s not Rewards or Effort based issues at this point ?
So, i guess everyone that asks for LS1 to be returned in some form to the game are also only about rewards, right? There can be no other reasons why someone might want to actually play throughout it, instead of watching a recap, right?
The least A’net could do is make it an Very Hard single player experience for the casual players also. Just like that one boss in the Queens Gauntlet (Liadri the Concealing Dark).
Then most of the raiders wouldn’t get it, and we just can’t have that.[/sarcasm]
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Totally agree with OP !!!
Myself I am a ‘on and off’ casual player, so more a single player sort of say.
I play for few months and after that not for few months.. this goes on since launch..These raids are to kitten hard for casual payers like myself, I’m not steady active enough to stay in a guild which could clear the raid. And in Pick up groups i get kicked out because i don’t know the tactics of bosses….. Sigh
This is very frustrating, not so much for not seeing the raid but more for never going to complete the farm for legendary armor pieces.The least A’net could do is make it an Very Hard single player experience for the casual players also. Just like that one boss in the Queens Gauntlet (Liadri the Concealing Dark).
That was fun and hard!
It’s called t4 fractals? Those are a stepping stone to raids.
No more like, don’t expect to jump into raiding instantly because that’s sane. Play the game, learn the game, find a group of players (guild) then raid. You see that’s the selling point. Playing the content, if you choose not to, that ceases to be an Anet problem.
And nor should they, but once they’ve played the game and gotten to a point that raids may be the next logical step, they won’t benefit like a lot of us vets did by having the population spike at the launch of raids. That was a time when it didn’t really matter if a few players left the group as there were plenty to fill the spots. I know I spent countless hours during that time and never really had the issues that players face now of finding groups that even stay together while learning. Granted when we learned there weren’t guides, but we had plenty of willing players to rough it out with. Now we either have dedicated groups or join exp only groups. Have you tried semi recently pugging with a new/ no exp needed group? I feel pity for them, spending hours to form a group only to have rage q’ers leave then have to spend hours more to only have the same thing happen again. It simply isn’t the same process now as it was when we learned.
It’s much easier to raid now than at raid release. All of the strategies and builds are hashed out. Plus, more experienced players can cover newbie mistakes.
I recently took a 6 month hiatus, and started wing 4 a couple of weeks ago. It was really easy, especially since the rest of my (pug) group was experienced.
I get the feeling you haven’t tried raids. Or tried once, and failed. They are not that bad. Start with the easier ones.
Totally agree with OP !!!
Myself I am a ‘on and off’ casual player, so more a single player sort of say.
I play for few months and after that not for few months.. this goes on since launch..These raids are to kitten hard for casual payers like myself, I’m not steady active enough to stay in a guild which could clear the raid. And in Pick up groups i get kicked out because i don’t know the tactics of bosses….. Sigh
This is very frustrating, not so much for not seeing the raid but more for never going to complete the farm for legendary armor pieces.The least A’net could do is make it an Very Hard single player experience for the casual players also. Just like that one boss in the Queens Gauntlet (Liadri the Concealing Dark).
That was fun and hard!
Before last week I had never raided, I Was in a group with 9 other people only one person had ever cleared Vg once we beat VG in 5 attempts which equated to about 45 mins of time, raids aren’t that difficult, especially if you use the resources Raiders provide to help casuals get into raiding to make it easier for them.
This topic again… once again without any valid proposals, no offered solutions, no actual points for discussion, just a vague “please add an easy mode of Raids by ‘simply’ reducing hit points and damage” (love the word “simply” btw).
Let’s talk about an actual example instead of vague arguments and since it’s the first boss of the Raids, let’s focus on Vale Guardian.
Question 1: Do you think the mobs before the boss need to be nerfed? Personally I can’t imagine a team of players who already beat the rest of the game, having trouble clearing those, but I’m asking just in case.
The adds before Vale Guardian teach you valuable lessons, and that’s the training/easy mode right there, and included by design.
The red one that you need condition damage and some form of seeker control
The blue teaches you to run to the green circles before they expire or bad things happen and also about boon stripping.
The green one teaches you to avoid the blue circles or you will get teleported around
The first part of the VG fight, up until after the first split phase has no mechanics different to those 3 mobs. I can say with a high decree of certainty that no group that can reach Vale Guardian, will ever fail to reach the split phase as well, which means the mechanics present up to that point require no tweaks at all, things like green circle damage, or seeker damage, it’s already an easy mode up to that point.
I want to clear this out before moving on
So, i guess everyone that asks for LS1 to be returned in some form to the game are also only about rewards, right? There can be no other reasons why someone might want to actually play throughout it, instead of watching a recap, right?
If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck….
I doubt i need to say much more. Those that solely want the “Lore” can get it via other means, be it text or video.
Now then lets get to the meat of where your analogy is horrible for a second. Show me the limited time content of raids ???
Yep, it’s not a thing so your comparison is pretty much shallow and without merit.
The first part of the VG fight, up until after the first split phase has no mechanics different to those 3 mobs. I can say with a high decree of certainty that no group that can reach Vale Guardian, will ever fail to reach the split phase as well, which means the mechanics present up to that point require no tweaks at all, things like green circle damage, or seeker damage, it’s already an easy mode up to that point.
You’d be surprised. Yeah, the introductory guardians let the players learn the mechanics (in theory), but the consequences of failing those (and, let’s be honest, new players will be failing them for a long time before they learn) ale far less severe than in the actual boss fight. Apart from greens, all other mechanics are relatively easy to cope with. If there are no other mechanics to consider, that is. It’s the combination of those that is deadly.
So, teleports alone are not a problem. They become a problem if the person getting teleported is a tank, or one of the green circle runners. Seekers are easy to go around and avoid… but not of they are on your path toward greens, or are in greens. Situations that were simple with the introductory miniguardians suddenly require additional attention and methods to deal with. Experienced players will have no problem adjusting, but those new to raiding are most likely to get overwhelmed in the beginning.
Personally, i have yet to see any group consisting of players new to raiding that would be able to get through first phase on their first try without messing up something really badly.
Still, i’m nitpicking here. In general, you are right in the first phase being an easy mode and something any group (well, almost any) should be able to learn after reasonable number of tries. It’s the next phases that create a real problem.
But to answer your question: no, i don’t think that the individual split guardians need to be adjusted.
Now then lets get to the meat of where your analogy is horrible for a second. Show me the limited time content of raids ???
What does it matter in what way the content is limited? Your reasoning applies in any case. By your own words, watching the videos and reading about story should be enough, so noone should really be asking about reintroducing LS1, unless they were interested in rewards.
I just haven’t the faintest idea what rewards people that do ask for it might be interested in.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
The first part of the VG fight, up until after the first split phase has no mechanics different to those 3 mobs. I can say with a high decree of certainty that no group that can reach Vale Guardian, will ever fail to reach the split phase as well, which means the mechanics present up to that point require no tweaks at all, things like green circle damage, or seeker damage, it’s already an easy mode up to that point.
You’d be surprised. Yeah, the introductory guardians let the players learn the mechanics (in theory), but the consequences of failing those (and, let’s be honest, new players will be failing them for a long time before they learn) ale far less severe than in the actual boss fight. Apart from greens, all other mechanics are relatively easy to cope with. If there are no other mechanics to consider, that is. It’s the combination of those that is deadly.
So, teleports alone are not a problem. They become a problem if the person getting teleported is a tank, or one of the green circle runners. Seekers are easy to go around and avoid… but not of they are on your path toward greens, or are in greens. Situations that were simple with the introductory miniguardians suddenly require additional attention and methods to deal with. Experienced players will have no problem adjusting, but those new to raiding are most likely to get overwhelmed in the beginning.
Personally, i have yet to see any group consisting of players new to raiding that would be able to get through first phase on their first try without messing up something really badly.
Still, i’m nitpicking here. In general, you are right in the first phase being an easy mode and something any group (well, almost any) should be able to learn after reasonable number of tries. It’s the next phases that create a real problem.
But to answer your question: no, i don’t think that the individual split guardians need to be adjusted.
Now then lets get to the meat of where your analogy is horrible for a second. Show me the limited time content of raids ???
What does it matter in what way the content is limited? Your reasoning applies in any case. By your own words, watching the videos and reading about story should be enough, so noone should really be asking about reintroducing LS1, unless they were interested in rewards.
I just haven’t the faintest idea what rewards people that do ask for it might be interested in.
For seekers that why classes bring CCs such as knock backs and roots, blues can be side stepped or blocked or invulnerable or evaded through very simple stuff.
Hmm yet I was in a group with 9 new players that completed the raid in 5 attempts, yeah such a long time, so many attempts…….. the first attempt we got him to Phase three where players didn’t get too green in time since it spawned a panel behind the boss.
The fights as a whole aren’t that hard, you just want to try and justify getting an easy mode for easy rewards.
Now then lets get to the meat of where your analogy is horrible for a second. Show me the limited time content of raids ???
What does it matter in what way the content is limited? Your reasoning applies in any case. By your own words, watching the videos and reading about story should be enough, so noone should really be asking about reintroducing LS1, unless they were interested in rewards.
I just haven’t the faintest idea what rewards people that do ask for it might be interested in.
You’re really trying to say that an apple is a potato here and it’s quite sad. The stretch is so bad it’s almost more sad than comical.
LS1 was temporary event based story driven content that had unique rewards most of which is either able to be purchased via the BLTC, or for laurels. Now then, lets compare that apple to the potato that is raids.
Raids are permanent, challenge based, story-lite content. They have unique rewards, that anyone who plays can attain.
You’re literally comparing two separate things whose only commonality is that they contain starches here. It’s a really poor attempt to stretch the debate.
Also as stated, if you want the lore of raids there plenty of ways to get said lore. Text (wiki), Video (twitch/youtube), Cinematics (NPC), Open instances. Literally nothing is stopping you from getting the lore. The only thing you’re stopped from getting is rewards.
Hmm yet I was in a group with 9 new players that completed the raid in 5 attempts, yeah such a long time, so many attempts
Well, lucky you. Your experience is not really representative of the community however.
If it was, noone would bother with LFG restrictions. They wouldn’t have been necessary.
LS1 was temporary event based story driven content that had unique rewards most of which is either able to be purchased via the BLTC, or for laurels.
Yes. There are also text, video and cinematic sources describing it. And yet requests for it to be brought back return on a regular basis. And story is the main reason cited.
If your assumptions were true, no such requests would appear. And yet they do.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Hmm yet I was in a group with 9 new players that completed the raid in 5 attempts, yeah such a long time, so many attempts
Well, lucky you. Your experience is not really representative of the community however.
If it was, noone would bother with LFG restrictions. They wouldn’t have been necessary.
LS1 was temporary event based story driven content that had unique rewards most of which is either able to be purchased via the BLTC, or for laurels.
Yes. There are also text, video and cinematic sources describing it. And yet requests for it to be brought back return on a regular basis. And story is the main reason cited.
If your assumptions were true, no such requests would appear. And yet they do.
And you have nothing to back your claims besides your hypothetical situations, when it has been proven multiple times that you don’t have to be highly skilled or know the encounters inside and out , funny isn’t it
Hmm yet I was in a group with 9 new players that completed the raid in 5 attempts, yeah such a long time, so many attempts
Well, lucky you. Your experience is not really representative of the community however.
If it was, noone would bother with LFG restrictions. They wouldn’t have been necessary.
LS1 was temporary event based story driven content that had unique rewards most of which is either able to be purchased via the BLTC, or for laurels.
Yes. There are also text, video and cinematic sources describing it. And yet requests for it to be brought back return on a regular basis. And story is the main reason cited.
If your assumptions were true, no such requests would appear. And yet they do.
You are compairing content that people say they cant acess because they dont want to invest time with content that people cant acess because its not in the game.
That invalidates all your argument and if you cant see how failed is your comparison then there is nothing more to discuss.
And you have nothing to back your claims besides your hypothetical situations
what “hypothetical” situations?
You are compairing content that people say they cant acess because they dont want to invest time with content that people cant acess because its not in the game.
So? In both cases one of the arguments is about a story. Are you telling me that somehow text and video are enough to satisfy the story in the case of one content, but not in the case of another? Why is that, exactly?
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
You are compairing content that people say they cant acess because they dont want to invest time with content that people cant acess because its not in the game.
So? In both cases one of the arguments is about a story. Are you telling me that somehow text and video are enough to satisfy the story in the case of one content, but not in the case of another? Why is that, exactly?
Because the two cases aren’t even remotely the same. At some point the intentional trolling has to stop.
There is a big difference between content still in game and content that’s been removed from the game.
When you intentionally choose not to go play content you give up all claims to the lore being your driving factor especially when there’s no lore in the actual fights of the raids themselves and every lore bit can be attained via a cleared instance or talking to the NPC’s to watch the in-game cinematic.
One requires players to go outside the game because the core experience has been removed from the game, the other is one where players choose not to do it because they don’t want to invest the time and effort to experience it in the game. There is no equivalency as LS1 gives players no choice. Raids do, but people just don’t want to take it. That’s not Anets responsibility.
I feel like the biggest problem has been Anet’s “do what you want” approach to high level content. They’ve discouraged a linear or strict method of progression in the early game, and this extends to the endgame progression. Without the structure of a more linear system, it’s difficult to scale up content gradually and teach players how to play the game. In the open world, nothing really hurts you so this isn’t an issue but the ramp up path to raids is really muddied. Ideally, if you can max out your fractal level and beat Nightmare CM, you should be equipped skill wise for raids. No way known that you can’t beat Escort or VG as a DPS class if you can handle Ensolyss assuming others are capable. The problem is that progression for fractals is more demanding than that of raids. Ascended trinkets and exotic gear is all that’s needed even for relative newcomers to complete all raids. The difficulty comes in learning the encounters, whereas you cannot progress in the fractal system without acquiring a full ascended set. So when Arenanet preps fractals as a stepping stone to raids, it’s kind of wasted as a lot of people looking to try raids would do so before being ready because gearing up and learning to play high end content is not a priority. They’ve been discouraged to view endgame progression as progression, and more as a buffet of activities, then get sullen when they cannot handle it.
An easy mode would help the transition and I wouldn’t mind it’s inclusion provided the raid team has additional staff taken from the LW team or newly hired so as to keep the current work flow consistent. The problem is more to do with people attacking content before they’re ready (because the entire game builds itself up as a modular thing and that you can do everything) then feeling shafted because of their expectations. An easy mode would help, but not really fix that fundamental problem. Unfortunately, because the game encourages that mindset of being super casual friendly and that you’re able to do everything, it causes certain elements of the player base to have a feeling of entitlement. That because they paid for the game, they’re entitled to access every facet of it and any difficulty barrier that they choose not to overcome means that the game is somehow discriminating against them. The idea of personal skill progression being integral to completing content doesn’t factor. It’s the games fault, it’s the elitists’ fault, etc.
Having a shardless, rewardless story mode has merit for the few people who just want easy access to lore but that is such a minute number, I don’t think it’s worth devoting resources towards. As for everyone else, an Easy Mode might help but the fundamental problem is that Guild Wars 2’s design is horizontal in nature not vertical, so it does a poor job of teaching people how to play pve content outside of the fractal progression system. But because fractals have a steeper equipment requirement than raids, and because they’re sealed off in their own world, too many people attempt raids before they’re really ready. I mean we’ve had complaints even to this day that HoT maps are too hard. Any kind of Easy Mode in raids would still be too hard for such people. I would like to see more accessibility through an improved LFG UI, perhaps integrate guild recruitment/run ads so that people can use in game tools to find new guilds and static groups. And again I’m not opposed to a rewardless story mode provided it doesn’t lengthen the time between releases. I just don’t think it does much good since the problems go further than that.
Don’t get me wrong, I love horizontal progression and not needing to worry about the gear treadmill. It just requires a bit of initiative on the part of prospective raiders if they want to start raiding. Whether that be to find training groups, join a guild, complete fractal progression and Nightmare CM, or all of the above.
(edited by CrustyBot.3564)
Still, i’m nitpicking here. In general, you are right in the first phase being an easy mode and something any group (well, almost any) should be able to learn after reasonable number of tries. It’s the next phases that create a real problem.
Yes, it’s the next phases that cause a “problem”. The first phase is the “easy mode” that you can train for by fighting the 3 initial mobs, the second phase (after first split) adds a couple new mechanics and it’s “normal mode”, then the last phase uses the previous mechanics but makes them more deadly (2 lit floors at the same time plus an extra seeker) and that’s the “hard mode”.
As I’ve always said in threads like this one, tweaking the end mechanics is what will make Raids more accessible to newer and less skilled players, not tweaking and adjusting the entire thing.
Sabetha gets double timed bombs at the end
Slothasor gets the shake attack after 50%
Keep Construct gets four rotating fields during break bar after 33%
and so on
But to answer your question: no, i don’t think that the individual split guardians need to be adjusted.
Which is why those same attacks used by the VG do not need to be adjusted either. It’s other mechanic that could be tweaked.
Everyone of those mechanic failures results in dmg to the player, so reducing that dmg does give leeway. You have mistaken dmg reduction or modifier for only a dps check.
Except not. Failing to protect the cage at trio, or Sabetha’s platform, or Glenna, results in immediate failure. There’s no damage to the players, you’re just failing the objective. Same goes for Gorseval’s World Eater, by the way. Same goes for getting knocked into spears by Samarog.
But even if they all did result in damage to the player and nothing else, reducing the damage would solve nothing. It would either be reduced enough to ignore all the mechanics – turning raids essentially into world bosses, thus defeating their purpose – or it will make mechanics that directly wipe you into ones that only pressure you. Increasing the pressure, however, will NOT help players to deal with said mechanics. Or the rest of the mechanics in the fight, for that matter. It will only make things worse. You’d still be wiping, just a bit later, after you’ve lost several members of the team and everything has fallen apart. It’s pointless.
You are compairing content that people say they cant acess because they dont want to invest time with content that people cant acess because its not in the game.
So? In both cases one of the arguments is about a story. Are you telling me that somehow text and video are enough to satisfy the story in the case of one content, but not in the case of another? Why is that, exactly?
Because the two cases aren’t even remotely the same. At some point the intentional trolling has to stop.
There is a big difference between content still in game and content that’s been removed from the game.
Yes, there is. It just happens that this difference has no impact whatsoever on the argument you were using.
Either the text, videos and cinematics can replace the feel of the story for everyone, or they can’t. If they can, they can do that for all forms of content. If they can’t do that for one form of content, then you cannot claim they can do it for others. No matter how you try to obfuscate the issue.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Raids must be so hard!! I did my first raid boss last night in a training group, … downed him in 5 attempts no one had previous experience outside of 1 player. …
Some people find the mechanics easy-enough; many don’t. The first group has trouble understanding the fuss or emphasis on meta; the second group has trouble understanding why the first group thinks it’s easy.
….
The group I was with were all first time players to Raids sans 1 who was a Reaper, …It wasn’t Meta comp in the slightest, … it took only 5 attempts, only about 45 mins total to clear the boss.
I’m just saying the raids aren’t as hard as people are trying to make them out to be, Meta isn’t needed, having prior is not needed(it helps but is by no means necessary, High dps isn’t needed, only one player was consistently over 10k dps, the rest were around 4-7k sand the Chrono and healer Druid.
VG was killed
And I’m saying raids are, in fact, just as hard as people who try them think they are.
So sure, meta builds are overkill and meta-comps aren’t needed for some people. But that’s not the majority of players.Put another way, you (and your team) are better players than average. As a result, it might be hard for you to see that it’s difficult for others. Your experience isn’t typical.
It’s so funny people always try to belittle the “average” gw2 player saying they are bad, how do you know how skilled the “average” gw2 player is? But people are quick to say they are bads, so funny.
Yet it’s been proven time and again Raids aren’t the unconquerable, content they make it out to be, all it requires is paying attention to mechanics, nothing more nothing less, no super high dps is needed, no Perma Boons needednon eveyone, no Meta comp, all it takes is paying attention to mechanics, some bosses do need slightly higher dps but not too much higher.
Are you are saying the “average” player can’t remember 3-5 mechanics per fight or play their class in an average manner?
What are you on about? I’m not belittling the average player, I’m complimenting you and your team. In PvE meta events, hero challenges, and the like, we have plenty of opportunity to see how the typical player approaches mechanics. We see folks pushing foes away out of AoE circles, having trouble breaking defiance, and trouble avoiding the worst mechanics.
I don’t think that makes the typical “bad” — that makes them “typical”.
…
I never said you belittled the team I was in…. I said people belittling the “average” player….#reading. And again look at a lot of the posts when it comes to the “average” player most in this thread keep saying or implying that they are bad like yours and Astrals posts…..
The team I was in was doing extremely subpar performance and beat the Raid bosses with extremely subpar dps and mechanics awareness, most classes AA higher dps than the players were maintaining in dps…. and you are trying to claim that is above average performance….
Apparently, we aren’t using average or typical in the same way. I’m talking about the typical player in the PvE community — most haven’t even tried raids. Many that have tried never succeeded & stopped trying.
Perhaps you are referring to average performance for a raid. In that case, I doubt any single player has a really good idea about what that might look like, because very few of us collect enough data over enough time to see. The closest that we’ve seen is a few Redditors posting their observations over a few months of weekly PUGs — the typical DPS they saw is far, far lower than that posted by QT or any other benchmarkers. And that was for their successful attempts.
We’ve known for a long time that high DPS isn’t essential for most of the encounters. We’ve also known that many of the encounters are very forgiving of all sorts of mistakes.
My point remains that raids aren’t easy for everyone who plays this game. Those who succeed are often unable to understand why that is, just as those who have never succeeded don’t understand how anyone considers raids to be easy. It’s a cognitive bias issue that pops up in just about every human endeavor.
So read my posts again. I’m not saying that players are bad. I’m saying that not everyone finds raids easy, because, for those people, raids are not easy. And I’m further saying that you’re a good enough player that it’s hard for you to see how that’s even possible.
John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”
Which is why those same attacks used by the VG do not need to be adjusted either. It’s other mechanic that could be tweaked.
Not necessarily. You are mistaking the reason why those later phases are more difficult.
Remember, that there is a major difference between trying to face each of those mechanics separatedly, and trying to face them when they are thrown at you together.
In the end, most of the failure at VG is likely caused by greens. Of those, most are not a result of players directly failing to execute that mechanic properly. It’s usually the sideeffect of another mechanic interfering (or even of a chain reaction of several mechanics in sequence) – runners getting downed/delayed by seekers, blues in greens, greens spawning on lightning floor, greens spawning on lightning floor due to too slow cc, runners getting downed/distracted by aoe during cc, cc getting slowed down due to people getting distracted with blues/greens. And of course the crowd’s favourite: some mechanics failing because players were too busy with ressing those that got downed due to the previous problem.
VG is not difficult because its individual mechanics are difficult. It’s difficult because the combination of those simple mechanics can be deadly. It doesn’t get more difficult in later phases because the later mechanics are more difficult (the most dangerous of them – greens – is present from the very beginning). It’s simply because there’s more mechanics to consider.
So while targetting the latter mechanics may seem an obvious choice, adjusting any of them (especially greens) would help.
My personal suggestions?
add 1 sec to greens (from the time they appear till the damage), and/or require only 3 people in greens
decrease the cc bar
perhaps decrease boss HP a bit (since that always helps)
Maybe drop the additional seeker in 3rd phase
Gorse is primarily a dps check, so just decreasing hp of boss and spirits should do. There’s no need to adjust any of the mechanics.
Sabetha:
general changes: increasing platform hp and decreasing Sabetha’s can’t hurt.
Decreasing hps of Kernan, knuckles and Karde (especially Karde) is definitely going to help. Maybe decrease the turret damage from Kernan spawn, or slow turret spawn rate.
Cannons: no idea. Maybe allow the same player to go to each cannon, without the need of backup? And/or increase the number of throwable bombs. (the second option, while useful, might throw off the timing of anyone trying to transition from easy to normal, so if we went with it i’d likely mean getting the bombs at twice the rate of normal)
timed bombs: might drop the second one during later phases.
heavy bombs: maaaybeeee lower platform damage.
no change to flamewall
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
(edited by Astralporing.1957)
Fix the targeting in this game and allow for macros,just minor ones, and that will make raids and the mechanics sooo much “easier”. Not face roll or do solo easy but just a bit of help in the mechanics department,thats all. Kinda wish dps meters never came into the game only because of the “saltiness” that comes from them.
And as mentioned above, I for one have never done T4 fracts, have barely stepped into the T1 range, yet I do raids. I reckon I would fail pretty bad in fracts atm but yet I see no need to dumb them down, same can be said for raids.
So while targetting the latter mechanics may seem an obvious choice, adjusting any of them (especially greens) would help.
To keep things sort, I’ll only respond to the VG part:
Getting to the green circles in time should never be an issue. It’s the “bad greens” that cause wipes and they appear mostly because the tank doesn’t know when to cross to another platform segment (or low CC but that’s easy to overcome). If you try VG with an expert tank, even if the other 9 players are relatively new, the encounter will most likely succeed with only a few tries.
I find it interesting that in your proposals for VG you didn’t mention the lit platforms at all, while in my experience getting a green circle on a lit platform is the prime reason for any kind of wipe at VG by inexperienced groups, experienced groups mitigate that “problem” with Distortion and/or Rebound but inexperienced groups will likely fail when a “bad green” spawn.
For all Raid encounters, the amount of tries needed to beat an encounter is irrelevant. It’s more like “How many tries to reach Phase 2?”, “How many tries to reach Phase 3?” and so on. Raid encounters aren’t binary success/failure but have multiple levels of success. Thinking in that way can more easily help identifying what’s causing the failure on all encounters and tweak accordingly.
Getting to the green circles in time should never be an issue.
It shouldn’t, but it still happens. We’re not talking here about the level of skill that can do the normal mode, after all. People will get teleported, sometimes. They will get into the green circle in the last second, on low hps. They will get downed.
It’s the “bad greens” that cause wipes
Greens? Definitely. Bad ones (i assume you mean greens on the lightning floor)? Yes, but not exclusively. Other messups can happen too.
and they appear mostly because the tank doesn’t know when to cross to another platform segment (or low CC but that’s easy to overcome).
In my experience, most of the time vg doesn’t cross into the next segment because either tank is downed, or cc was too slow (where first is often caused by second)>though, to admit, i haven’t had a chance to see too many non-expert tanks. Somehow not many players wanted to try that role.
If you try VG with an expert tank, even if the other 9 players are relatively new, the encounter will most likely succeed with only a few tries.
It will definitely be easier, but proper VG pathing alone doesn’t help that much. Though expert tank will likely also distort greens and possibly (if planning to carry hard) be a minstrel. Distorting greens alone can significantly help.
I find it interesting that in your proposals for VG you didn’t mention the lit platforms at all
I wanted the easy mode to retain at least some teaching value, so tried to not touch anything that would significantly alter timing and pathing. And, in my opinion, any change to the floor would have the opportunity to cause massive changes to the strategy. I’d rather have the easy mode fight be easier, but not significantly different than the normal one.
(yes, i considered the floor, i just couldn’t come up with any satisfactory solution)
, while in my experience getting a green circle on a lit platform is the prime reason for any kind of wipe at VG by inexperienced groups, experienced groups mitigate that “problem” with Distortion and/or Rebound but inexperienced groups will likely fail when a “bad green” spawn.
Yes, green on lit floor is always bad news, but that’s not the only reason of wipes. The second is teleports in greens during third phase. The last major problem that i often see is too slow cc. It either causes the abovementioned problem with greens, or, if too long, can result in someone getting downed. It’s not unusual for someone to go down if the boss bar is not broken immediately. That, too is generally a third-phase issue and rarely happens during the second. Might be something with running having an impact on healers’ efficiency.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
(edited by Astralporing.1957)
They will get downed.
That’s good, people getting downed and then perma-dead is part of the Raids. Hey players might miss this so let’s nerf it, players might not be able to handle that, let’s nerf it.
Which leads to the major issue of how much to nerf the mechanics, how much development time will be spent to make these kinds of changes (multiple changes) to a Raid. Ultimately, how agreeing to tweak even the little things of a fight (like the green circles are) will affect the speed at which future Raids will be created.
I’m going more for a reduction or removal of the most offending abilities because that’s exactly how challenge motes work. It’s something that we’ve seen done and something that CAN happen in a relatively lower time frame, as proven by the challenge motes themselves. Adding a new mechanic on top of the others, or removing a current, doesn’t require the same amount of testing than tweaking numbers for many abilities.
I wanted the easy mode to retain at least some teaching value, so tried to not touch anything that would significantly alter timing and pathing.
Adjusting the timer for a green circle to explode doesn’t alter timing?
Funny how you are talking about teaching value here. Which one is better for teaching VG? Having phase 1 and phase 2 the exact same as the normal fight, but tweak one ability of phase 3, or fight a reduced version of every single phase? I’d choose the first one as a superior training method than the second, at least most of the fight is the same and once you go to the next version you will know how to deal with all the mechanics up to that point, which is exactly how Challenge Motes work.
That, too is generally a third-phase issue and rarely happens during the second. Might be something with running having an impact on healers’ efficiency.
Exactly why I’m saying that the previous phases of VG do not require any alterations at all. Most mistakes (if not all) happen at phase 3 anyway and very rare to happen at phase 2. There is a similar pattern for all Raid bosses, how can ANY group of nobodies fail at Deimos before fighting the first Saul? You just stand still, tank and spank for crying out loud.
They will get downed.
That’s good, people getting downed and then perma-dead is part of the Raids. Hey players might miss this so let’s nerf it, players might not be able to handle that, let’s nerf it.
…you completely missed the point here, didn’t you?
My point was that at the level we’re speaking of there will be other problems than just those you claim are the only ones that might happen.
If we could expect players easy mode would be meant for to execute mechanics as they are on the current difficulty, there would be no need for easy mode at all.
I’m going more for a reduction or removal of the most offending abilities because that’s exactly how challenge motes work. It’s something that we’ve seen done and something that CAN happen in a relatively lower time frame, as proven by the challenge motes themselves. Adding a new mechanic on top of the others, or removing a current, doesn’t require the same amount of testing than tweaking numbers for many abilities.
Possibly, but that would completely change the flow of the encounter, which is something to be avoided.
I wanted the easy mode to retain at least some teaching value, so tried to not touch anything that would significantly alter timing and pathing.
Adjusting the timer for a green circle to explode doesn’t alter timing?
The timing at which greens would spawn would remain the same. Though you may be right here. Reducing requirements of greens to three players (which shouldn’t be a hard change to make, seeing as it works exactly like that during the splits already) would likely be a better choice.
Funny how you are talking about teaching value here. Which one is better for teaching VG? Having phase 1 and phase 2 the exact same as the normal fight, but tweak one ability of phase 3, or fight a reduced version of every single phase? I’d choose the first one as a superior training method than the second, at least most of the fight is the same and once you go to the next version you will know how to deal with all the mechanics up to that point, which is exactly how Challenge Motes work.
In my approach you learn how to execute all mechanics, and, hopefully, by the time you decide to go for normal mode (if you ever decide to go for it), you will be good enough at them that slight increase of difficulty at some of them would pose no problem. In yours, when transitioning the players would get stuck at the same spot they would have been stuck if they started with the normal mode. Easy mode would not give them any help in learning how to get over that part.
That, too is generally a third-phase issue and rarely happens during the second. Might be something with running having an impact on healers’ efficiency.
Exactly why I’m saying that the previous phases of VG do not require any alterations at all. Most mistakes (if not all) happen at phase 3 anyway and very rare to happen at phase 2.
Still, in VG’s (and many other bosses too) case, it’s the early stages mechanics, not the late ones, that wipe players. Those are just there to introduce more distractions and chaos.
As you youself have admitted – it’s the greens that cause wipes.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November