Difficulty Level of raids

Difficulty Level of raids

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Posted by: Chris McSwag.4683

Chris McSwag.4683

You can complete pretty much all encounters with 50% of the dps of a highly skilled group, that’s how forgiving the bosses are. Mechanics wise there are some punishing ones and some not so punishing, but it’s not like they require a degree in rocket science to learn.

[eS] Ethereal Synergy
DPS Benchmarks, Raids, Low-mans etc.

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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

My point was that at the level we’re speaking of there will be other problems than just those you claim are the only ones that might happen.

And tweaking every single mechanic that some person might fail at isn’t reasonable.

Possibly, but that would completely change the flow of the encounter, which is something to be avoided.

No it wouldn’t change the flow for the vast majority of the encounter other than one simple bit of it. Unlike changing multiple other mechanics by reducing their dps or increasing their time. THAT’s what changes the flow of the encounter.

In my approach you learn how to execute all mechanics

No you don’t actually do that, by changing aspects like damage and hit points it’s not the same encounter anymore.

As you youself have admitted – it’s the greens that cause wipes.

The greens on bad platforms. Regular greens do not.

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Posted by: Astralporing.1957

Astralporing.1957

The greens on bad platforms. Regular greens do not.

Apparently we’re playing with different people, because i see that all the time, even with groups that on average are more likely to kill the boss than not (and notice that the target group of easy mode would be generally below that level).

In thinking about the mechanics of easy mode, don’t assume skill ability on the level of normal mode. That’s counterproductive.

Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November

(edited by Astralporing.1957)

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Posted by: TexZero.7910

TexZero.7910

The greens on bad platforms. Regular greens do not.

Apparently we’re playing with different people, because i see that all the time, even with groups that on average are more likely to kill the boss than not (and notice that the target group of easy mode would be generally below that level).

In thinking about the mechanics of easy mode, don’t assume skill ability on the level of normal mode. That’s counterproductive.

Greens in the “wrong” sector is a timing issue caused by poor tank movement. AKA a mechanic. You cannot dumb this down to the point everyone can do it as movement is core to the fight.

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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

Apparently we’re playing with different people, because i see that all the time, even with groups that on average are more likely to kill the boss than not (and notice that the target group of easy mode would be generally below that level).

I’ll blame people using builds from online websites for that. When I was first doing VG on my Ele (during the first week) I always slotted Lighting Flash to go to the greens faster, other builds also have blink skills to help them get to greens faster. When first dealing with CC bars it’s a great idea to bring more CC skills just to be safe, remember the good old slick shoes on Gorseval to break it as fast as possible for example. Or go to certain bosses with 3 healers instead of 2, the enrage timer is rarely a problem and besides having more healers means the dps players will be up for more time and ultimately deal more dps

When you are learning a fight it’s not a bad thing to tweak your build and composition to make your life easier, call it using “training wheels”. Then once you know better how to do an encounter you can remove those. I still use Lighting Flash to get to the cannons at Sabetha, even though I shouldn’t after all this time I should be ready to go up there without it, and it’s a dps loss. Bad habits I guess.

Instead of looking first to change the mechanics of an encounter, why not see if there are skills/traits already in the game that can make those same mechanics easier?

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Posted by: FrostDraco.8306

FrostDraco.8306

Apparently we’re playing with different people, because i see that all the time, even with groups that on average are more likely to kill the boss than not (and notice that the target group of easy mode would be generally below that level).

I’ll blame people using builds from online websites for that. When I was first doing VG on my Ele (during the first week) I always slotted Lighting Flash to go to the greens faster, other builds also have blink skills to help them get to greens faster. When first dealing with CC bars it’s a great idea to bring more CC skills just to be safe, remember the good old slick shoes on Gorseval to break it as fast as possible for example. Or go to certain bosses with 3 healers instead of 2, the enrage timer is rarely a problem and besides having more healers means the dps players will be up for more time and ultimately deal more dps

When you are learning a fight it’s not a bad thing to tweak your build and composition to make your life easier, call it using “training wheels”. Then once you know better how to do an encounter you can remove those. I still use Lighting Flash to get to the cannons at Sabetha, even though I shouldn’t after all this time I should be ready to go up there without it, and it’s a dps loss. Bad habits I guess.

Instead of looking first to change the mechanics of an encounter, why not see if there are skills/traits already in the game that can make those same mechanics easier?

The problem isnt the builds, the builds are fine. The problem is the player thats so vapid they cant think to change utility to suit them better. Like ele’s that dont take rebound on KC, instead of FGS.

Or condi necros that don’t slot parasitic contagion in curses when they are having issues staying alive.

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Posted by: Feanor.2358

Feanor.2358

The problem isnt the builds, the builds are fine. The problem is the player thats so vapid they cant think to change utility to suit them better. Like ele’s that dont take rebound on KC, instead of FGS.

I stopped taking “Rebound!” on KC long time ago. It really isn’t much good tbh. The only thing that wipes us occasionally is when we fail to kill spirits and CC the boss fast enough to cancel the big circles attack. And Rebound doesn’t save us as it only mitigates a single hit.

My pedanticism satisfied, in general you’re right. There isn’t “one build to rule them all”. You’re always better tweaking something here and there to match what the fight needs. Rebound on Xera for buttons, Gale Song on Sloth for the free stunbreak, Tempest Defence on KC for the extra damage and so forth. Heck, I still take Lightning Flash when doing Sabetha cannons. I’m fully aware it’s suboptimal to do so, but my group has the dps to kill her anyway so I don’t see a point risking the fight just to be “optimal”.

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Posted by: FrostDraco.8306

FrostDraco.8306

The problem isnt the builds, the builds are fine. The problem is the player thats so vapid they cant think to change utility to suit them better. Like ele’s that dont take rebound on KC, instead of FGS.

I stopped taking “Rebound!” on KC long time ago. It really isn’t much good tbh. The only thing that wipes us occasionally is when we fail to kill spirits and CC the boss fast enough to cancel the big circles attack. And Rebound doesn’t save us as it only mitigates a single hit.

My pedanticism satisfied, in general you’re right. There isn’t “one build to rule them all”. You’re always better tweaking something here and there to match what the fight needs. Rebound on Xera for buttons, Gale Song on Sloth for the free stunbreak, Tempest Defence on KC for the extra damage and so forth. Heck, I still take Lightning Flash when doing Sabetha cannons. I’m fully aware it’s suboptimal to do so, but my group has the dps to kill her anyway so I don’t see a point risking the fight just to be “optimal”.

I mostly use incase we missed too many orbs for the magic attack. When its over 15 stacks i just rebound.

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Posted by: Amaimon.7823

Amaimon.7823

what if all the fractals at the highest fractal-level got a challenge mote?
or you designate the challenge mode during fractal select (and it’ll give a warning you need F100’s worth of AR) and turn any fractal into a CM version?
would that be a nice thing?
Fighting the giant jellyfish with challenging mechanics

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Posted by: CptAurellian.9537

CptAurellian.9537

Fighting the giant jellyfish with challenging mechanics

That would suck. Nothing more, nothing less. Underwater stuff is so imbalanced that this fractal should always be excluded from any kind of rework. It’s not worth the effort.

With regard to the other fractals, I’m less opposed but still don’t really like the idea. Apart from all the development time that could be spent on new fractals, I’ve got a feeling that challenge modes for every fractal might have some unintended side effects on the community.

Warning! This post may contain traces of irony, sarcasm and peanuts.

There is no loyalty without betrayal. -Ann Smiley

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Posted by: thrag.9740

thrag.9740

One thing I want to contribute. If every fractal gets a challenge mote maybe they should just be called…. tier 5? Seriously what is the point of a scaling difficulty system if you don’t use it when trying to actually introduce more difficulty.

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Posted by: Astralporing.1957

Astralporing.1957

One thing I want to contribute. If every fractal gets a challenge mote maybe they should just be called…. tier 5? Seriously what is the point of a scaling difficulty system if you don’t use it when trying to actually introduce more difficulty.

Using already existing scaling system for this would imply suffering other consequences of said system (namely – inflated mob stats, and, what’s worse, increased required AR). Thanks, i’ll pass.

Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November

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Posted by: FrostDraco.8306

FrostDraco.8306

One thing I want to contribute. If every fractal gets a challenge mote maybe they should just be called…. tier 5? Seriously what is the point of a scaling difficulty system if you don’t use it when trying to actually introduce more difficulty.

Using already existing scaling system for this would imply suffering other consequences of said system (namely – inflated mob stats, and, what’s worse, increased required AR). Thanks, i’ll pass.

Implying AR was ever an issue for anyone running t4.

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Posted by: zealex.9410

zealex.9410

One thing I want to contribute. If every fractal gets a challenge mote maybe they should just be called…. tier 5? Seriously what is the point of a scaling difficulty system if you don’t use it when trying to actually introduce more difficulty.

Using already existing scaling system for this would imply suffering other consequences of said system (namely – inflated mob stats, and, what’s worse, increased required AR). Thanks, i’ll pass.

Implying AR was ever an issue for anyone running t4.

^

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Posted by: Astralporing.1957

Astralporing.1957

One thing I want to contribute. If every fractal gets a challenge mote maybe they should just be called…. tier 5? Seriously what is the point of a scaling difficulty system if you don’t use it when trying to actually introduce more difficulty.

Using already existing scaling system for this would imply suffering other consequences of said system (namely – inflated mob stats, and, what’s worse, increased required AR). Thanks, i’ll pass.

Implying AR was ever an issue for anyone running t4.

Suuure, i’d so love to need to replace all the infusions in all my fractal characters. Again.

Yes, annoyiance for annoyance’s sake is an issue.

Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November

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Posted by: thrag.9740

thrag.9740

Hold on. Right now, cm is inconsistent with the tier system. Who says t5 has to have higher AR or do any of the other stuff? We can trade one inconsistency for another, but at least then we can just have our own lfg for that tier etc.

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Posted by: Astralporing.1957

Astralporing.1957

Hold on. Right now, cm is inconsistent with the tier system. Who says t5 has to have higher AR or do any of the other stuff? We can trade one inconsistency for another, but at least then we can just have our own lfg for that tier etc.

There’s no point in mentioning using an already existing tiering system if you’re not really intending to use it at all.
It’s exactly because CM is inconsistent with the tier system that it’s called CM, not tier 5.

Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November

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Posted by: runeblade.7514

runeblade.7514

You can complete pretty much all encounters with 50% of the dps of a highly skilled group, that’s how forgiving the bosses are. Mechanics wise there are some punishing ones and some not so punishing, but it’s not like they require a degree in rocket science to learn.

How about a lowly skilled group? I can’t be a highly skilled player if I can’t learn the boss.

5x Warrior, 5x Ranger, 4x Elementalist, 4x Engineer,
4x Necromancer, 3x Mesmer, 4x Guardian, 4x Thief, 4 Revenant

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Posted by: TexZero.7910

TexZero.7910

How about a lowly skilled group? I can’t be a highly skilled player if I can’t learn the boss.

You can’t be highly skilled if your only request is to be carried by those that already do instead of learning the skills yourself.

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Posted by: runeblade.7514

runeblade.7514

How about a lowly skilled group? I can’t be a highly skilled player if I can’t learn the boss.

You can’t be highly skilled if your only request is to be carried by those that already do instead of learning the skills yourself.

I can’t learn the skills myself if no one takes me in the first place.

5x Warrior, 5x Ranger, 4x Elementalist, 4x Engineer,
4x Necromancer, 3x Mesmer, 4x Guardian, 4x Thief, 4 Revenant

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Posted by: Vinceman.4572

Vinceman.4572

I can’t learn the skills myself if no one takes me in the first place.

Practice in training runs. If you don’t find one, you can open one on your own!

Took me 3 runs of the dungeon to get the bug.

(edited by Vinceman.4572)

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Posted by: TexZero.7910

TexZero.7910

How about a lowly skilled group? I can’t be a highly skilled player if I can’t learn the boss.

You can’t be highly skilled if your only request is to be carried by those that already do instead of learning the skills yourself.

I can’t learn the skills myself if no one takes me in the first place.

You can do more than follow

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Posted by: FrostDraco.8306

FrostDraco.8306

How about a lowly skilled group? I can’t be a highly skilled player if I can’t learn the boss.

You can’t be highly skilled if your only request is to be carried by those that already do instead of learning the skills yourself.

I can’t learn the skills myself if no one takes me in the first place.

No one has to take you, take your bloody self. Get off your bum and make things happen, instead of relying on other people to do it for you.

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Posted by: MerlinGamer.7410

MerlinGamer.7410

When people say they have come from other raids in MMOs I would be curious to find out how the base games difficulty curve matches up with the raiding content. It may be that we are looking at the difficulty level in the wrong direction here. Something that Guild Wars 2 is absolutely horrible at is communicating how skilled a player you are. For instance I decided to take some meta exotic gear on a character and go do some of the season 2 bosses and just literally do nothing more than hold the 1 key down and be semi competent on my dodges. Most of the time I either killed the boss or the boss was extremely low before I died at which point I could finish them off in the downed state and rally.
What am I supposed to take away from this? Should I feel awesome at the game for soloing these bosses? You could argue that its reinforcing me to play badly but if I’m clearing content like this then how is it communicating to me at any point that I am playing badly?
Going through fractals 1 to 100 is a difficulty curve and perhaps you’re expected to have done that before taking on the raids, this is something that is often communicated to people on this forum. However its not really very well communicated in game. Also I have spoken to people who say that you should raid first because its a quick way of getting the ascended you need to do the fractals. It’s…a little backwards but if it really is that efficient a way then perhaps they do have a bit of a point.
Perhaps the developers need to add a little bit more hard solo content so that people find the room to improve themselves, rather than being told over and over and over by the content that they are amazing at this game by being able to clear absolutely everything with little to no effort. If you go on a league of legends community you will often see people blaming their team and not themselves and perhaps we have something like this going on now. Both from the high level people and the people who are asking for hundreds upon hundreds of LI (must get a more experienced team syndrome).
I’m not entirely sure that an easy mode would completely fix all of this but it could potentially help a little bit. Although I am starting to see that it’s a lot of work for little pay off.
I dunno, call me a bit of an SJW if you must but I just feel that there’s something a little bit sucky about the fact that there is content that some people may never ever get to experience, but I guess that’s just part of the genre and its far worse in other mmos.

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Posted by: FrostDraco.8306

FrostDraco.8306

When people say they have come from other raids in MMOs I would be curious to find out how the base games difficulty curve matches up with the raiding content. It may be that we are looking at the difficulty level in the wrong direction here. Something that Guild Wars 2 is absolutely horrible at is communicating how skilled a player you are. For instance I decided to take some meta exotic gear on a character and go do some of the season 2 bosses and just literally do nothing more than hold the 1 key down and be semi competent on my dodges. Most of the time I either killed the boss or the boss was extremely low before I died at which point I could finish them off in the downed state and rally.

This is one of the major issues with GW2’s core game. There is no metric for how bad/good you are in reference of overall things. OR in reference to other players. In some other games you know who is dishing the major DPS or is playing their class properly, because they have aggro. You can see health values, so you know how much damage you did, but also how much hp that NPC has/is losing, which gives you an idea of what you are doing compared to others.

What am I supposed to take away from this? Should I feel awesome at the game for soloing these bosses? You could argue that its reinforcing me to play badly but if I’m clearing content like this then how is it communicating to me at any point that I am playing badly?

It’s not, and thats the problem. That’s why people feel disjointed when they start raiding. Because their whole time in this game, player skill has barely mattered. Even in HoT, people just zerg over things with bodies, while people like myself are fine with soloing if need be. And telling people to solo anything, even if you tell them how, or show them how, gets you treated like the bad guy.

Going through fractals 1 to 100 is a difficulty curve and perhaps you’re expected to have done that before taking on the raids, this is something that is often communicated to people on this forum.

That’s not the case, that’s just what people suggest. fractals is a bit harder than raids at t4 is what people i know who are great in raids tell me, but to me, fractals is easy as pie, and while raids is as well, not as easy as fractals. It’s all perspective.

However its not really very well communicated in game. Also I have spoken to people who say that you should raid first because its a quick way of getting the ascended you need to do the fractals. It’s…a little backwards but if it really is that efficient a way then perhaps they do have a bit of a point.

Raids is not an efficient way of getting ascended, fractals is. I wouldn’t trust anyone actually saying that, because thats just patently false. Those are people that refuse to craft anything, and thats just not going to cut it. I meet people like that often that cry about how ascended is so time consuming to get, because they don’t want to spend the gold to craft, which is easier to replace than magnetite. It is backward to give you that kind of skewed advice. Another one of my issues with this community. people say backwards things like that a lot.

Perhaps the developers need to add a little bit more hard solo content so that people find the room to improve themselves, rather than being told over and over and over by the content that they are amazing at this game by being able to clear absolutely everything with little to no effort. If you go on a league of legends community you will often see people blaming their team and not themselves and perhaps we have something like this going on now. Both from the high level people and the people who are asking for hundreds upon hundreds of LI (must get a more experienced team syndrome).

I’ve been wanting this as well. The mordremoth fight for instance is easy to solo. People refuse to. Same with Zhaitan, and all the other story champs.

I’m not entirely sure that an easy mode would completely fix all of this but it could potentially help a little bit. Although I am starting to see that it’s a lot of work for little pay off.

It probably wont. What it does is split the community. People who have an easy mode will never have a reason to run the harder raids unless they get absolutely nothing from the story/easy mode. You see it now in dungeons, where people who are lazy just run all the story modes for tokens rather than doing the explorable.

I dunno, call me a bit of an SJW if you must but I just feel that there’s something a little bit sucky about the fact that there is content that some people may never ever get to experience, but I guess that’s just part of the genre and its far worse in other mmos.

An SJW would never self reflect to think that what they say could be incorrect. It does suck, but if it didn’t, people would never strive to get better at this game. Something i feel is already desperately lacking.

Raids is easy to experience. Slightly harder to complete. And even harder to complete every week. It takes work.

People wouldn’t have such a hard time just experiencing raids if they put in the work and learned the fights. I lead pug squads for stuff all the time. And i never have issues finding at least SOME people who want to do the boss im on. The rest i ask for guildies to fill in if i can.

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Posted by: FrostDraco.8306

FrostDraco.8306

One thing I want to contribute. If every fractal gets a challenge mote maybe they should just be called…. tier 5? Seriously what is the point of a scaling difficulty system if you don’t use it when trying to actually introduce more difficulty.

Using already existing scaling system for this would imply suffering other consequences of said system (namely – inflated mob stats, and, what’s worse, increased required AR). Thanks, i’ll pass.

Implying AR was ever an issue for anyone running t4.

Suuure, i’d so love to need to replace all the infusions in all my fractal characters. Again.

Yes, annoyiance for annoyance’s sake is an issue.

Implying thats a hard task? I have about 100+9s sitting in my bank from fractal dailies. If you are doing t4’s everyday this isnt an issue in the slightest.

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Posted by: Vinceman.4572

Vinceman.4572

You see it now in dungeons, where people who are lazy just run all the story modes for tokens rather than doing the explorable.

Just a question: Have I missed something? Dungeon story mode is giving token now? Because even when it’s daily it’s called “explorable”. Is that description wrong/buggy?

Took me 3 runs of the dungeon to get the bug.

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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

Something that Guild Wars 2 is absolutely horrible at is communicating how skilled a player you are.

The devs are getting better at this. Nearly every update since release added some higher difficulty mobs in the game, for example the Young Karka when Southsun was introduced were above the difficulty of release mobs. During the LS1 times there were various encounters of a much higher difficulty than the core game too. LS2 contains some interesting (and higher difficulty) fights too in the story mode or around SW
Heart of Thorns also raised the difficulty. There are trying to improve the challenge of the game but every time they add something difficult the idea to beat it is: “get more people”.

Perhaps the developers need to add a little bit more hard solo content so that people find the room to improve themselves, rather than being told over and over and over by the content that they are amazing at this game by being able to clear absolutely everything with little to no effort.

In my opinion a challenge mode version of the story would be excellent. Starting with LS4 so as not to change old content, add a challenge mote for the story fights. You finish the normal version to see the story and then play the challenge version to see the “real” fight. They did this in some LS2 instances, adding some extra/harder achievements to the story, something that is missing from LS3. They also did it in Hearts and Minds.

However, the main problem with a challenge mode version of the story is incentive to repeat them. Incentive to play them with others.

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Posted by: TexZero.7910

TexZero.7910

You see it now in dungeons, where people who are lazy just run all the story modes for tokens rather than doing the explorable.

Just a question: Have I missed something? Dungeon story mode is giving token now? Because even when it’s daily it’s called “explorable”. Is that description wrong/buggy?

There’s a repeatable for doing 8 dungeon paths, story included. It gives 5g and 150 tokens.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chest_of_Dungeoneering

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Posted by: Astralporing.1957

Astralporing.1957

You see it now in dungeons, where people who are lazy just run all the story modes for tokens rather than doing the explorable.

Really? That’s hardly lazy, because doing 8 story modes is definitely more difficult and takes longer than doing 8 easiest explore paths. Not to mention it gives much, much less rewards.

One thing I want to contribute. If every fractal gets a challenge mote maybe they should just be called…. tier 5? Seriously what is the point of a scaling difficulty system if you don’t use it when trying to actually introduce more difficulty.

Using already existing scaling system for this would imply suffering other consequences of said system (namely – inflated mob stats, and, what’s worse, increased required AR). Thanks, i’ll pass.

Implying AR was ever an issue for anyone running t4.

Suuure, i’d so love to need to replace all the infusions in all my fractal characters. Again.

Yes, annoyiance for annoyance’s sake is an issue.

Implying thats a hard task? I have about 100+9s sitting in my bank from fractal dailies. If you are doing t4’s everyday this isnt an issue in the slightest.

Now calculate what that means in terms of getting another +50 AR or so on all your fractal characters. And how much gold that would require.
And how much gold converting has already cost you to get that stack, by the way (as 9s do not drop from fractals).

No, it’s not hard. Just costly and annoying.

There are trying to improve the challenge of the game but every time they add something difficult the idea to beat it is: “get more people”.

Perhaps it’s because:
1. it works
2. huge majority of the players do not want the challenge of the game to increase. (just remember how people disliked difficulty increase in HoT areas, and how much did that cost Anet in term of sales).

Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November

(edited by Astralporing.1957)

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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

2. huge majority of the players do not want the challenge of the game to increase. (just remember how people disliked difficulty increase in HoT areas, and how much did that cost Anet in term of sales).

Ever thought that’s because the difficulty spike was sudden? Which is the exact same issue with Raids. If there was a much better difficulty progression then HoT difficulty wouldn’t be a problem. And LS1 was harder than the core game yet there wasn’t much of an issue back then. Instead, there was praise. LS2 was harder too, back it was much smaller in scale

I’m not sure how the difficulty increase in HoT areas affected sales. In order to play in the HoT areas and experience the difficulty you have to buy the game. And don’t tell me about guild mates/friends or what people post on these forums, we all know that internet posters tend to exaggerate way too much.

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Posted by: Vinceman.4572

Vinceman.4572

There’s a repeatable for doing 8 dungeon paths, story included. It gives 5g and 150 tokens.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chest_of_Dungeoneering

Ofc, that’s nothing new but according to the statement from above it makes no sense because like Astralsporing already said:
“That’s hardly lazy, because doing 8 story modes is definitely more difficult and takes longer than doing 8 easiest explore paths. Not to mention it gives much, much less rewards.”

It’s worse than making a good choice like for example AC story + 1,2,3 + CM story + 3 and maybe CoF 1+2.

Took me 3 runs of the dungeon to get the bug.

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Posted by: Astralporing.1957

Astralporing.1957

Ever thought that’s because the difficulty spike was sudden?

More like because it has been applied wholesale to everything in new expac, and was unavoidable.
Remember, that originally there was a difficulty progress leading from early areas to oiginal difficulty Orr zones. In the end the latter were nerfed significantly because even with that progress majority of players considered those zones to be too difficult. HoT is actually somewhere around the pre-nerf difficulty level of those zones.

Which is the exact same issue with Raids. If there was a much better difficulty progression then HoT difficulty wouldn’t be a problem.

I seriously doubt that. More likely you’d simply run into problems earlier. The main reason why people stopped complaining about the difficulty of a certain earlier content was either because it got nerfed, or because they lost interest in that content. The complains about raids will end only when it will either get more accessible, or the people complaining will no longer be interested in anything about them.

And LS1 was harder than the core game yet there wasn’t much of an issue back then. Instead, there was praise.

You might just not remember the forums then. There was an outcry even against karkas, and aethers and twisted watchworks weren’t generally that loved either. They still aren’t, but it’s next to invisible because they are either in a zone almost noone goes to (karkas) or not in open world at all (aethers, twisted watchworks). Praise was coming from the same subset of community that loves raids and thought HoT was okay.

I’m not sure how the difficulty increase in HoT areas affected sales. In order to play in the HoT areas and experience the difficulty you have to buy the game.

Yes. And then all the people that bought the game started posting everywhere how bad HoT is and how it’s aimed at hardcores only. And the negativity started even before, during beta events.

Yes, it was not the only thing that added to general negative opinion of the expac, but it was definitely one of the major factors. Basically, the expac received bad press since the very beginning, and difficulty increase was one of the main things that contributed to that. If you think that didn’t affect sales…

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Difficulty Level of raids

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

HoT is actually somewhere around the pre-nerf difficulty level of those zones.

Not even close. The zones of Orr weren’t difficult even at release, they were annoying and frustrating to navigate due to loads of cc and crippling effects, it wasn’t because you died there, Orr was always a joke to fight in. If you actually fought the mobs they were the exact same as they are now, they just felt stronger. Now they are much weaker because players now have more experience in the game. Plus Ascended, plus better/optimized builds plus elite specializations. HoT and release Orr are nothing alike.

I seriously doubt that. More likely you’d simply run into problems earlier.

Doubt it all you want but if players were more experienced in harder content then entering Raids wouldn’t be as much of a problem as it is now.

You might just not remember the forums then.

I remember them very well, along with the l2p comments that I guess most people realized were true and what was the problem dealing with those mobs. It’s really funny that the reason the young karka were strong was because players didn’t want to adapt their builds to fight them. In a similar manner players don’t want to adapt their builds to play Raids either. Just compare a young karka with a Raid mechanic.
To make a Young Karka a joke you bring projectile reflects, without them they are harder, but with a reflect they are a joke.
To make getting to a green circle at VG faster you bring blink/movement/teleport skills and suddenly it becomes an easy task.
I know it’s a crude comparison but in both cases those refusing to adapt their builds are those who are having trouble with the content. Adapt and it becomes much easier.

Yes. And then all the people that bought the game started posting everywhere how bad HoT is and how it’s aimed at hardcores only. And the negativity started even before, during beta events.

But the vast majority of the Guild Wars 2 population and most casual players do not read the forums. How can something they do not read affect their buying or not buying the game?

(edited by maddoctor.2738)

Difficulty Level of raids

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Posted by: Astralporing.1957

Astralporing.1957

HoT is actually somewhere around the pre-nerf difficulty level of those zones.

Not even close. The zones of Orr weren’t difficult even at release, they were annoying and frustrating to navigate due to loads of cc and crippling effects, it wasn’t because you died there, Orr was always a joke to fight in. If you actually fought the mobs they were the exact same as they are now, they just felt stronger.

They had more cc, and the mob density and respawn rates were much, much higher than now. Though i can understand how you don’t remember that, since it got nerfed really fast.

Now they are much weaker because players now have more experience in the game. Plus Ascended, plus better/optimized builds plus elite specializations. HoT and release Orr are nothing alike.

HoT is original Orr upgraded for players with ascended. Relative difficulty is about the same.

I seriously doubt that. More likely you’d simply run into problems earlier.

Doubt it all you want but if players were more experienced in harder content then entering Raids wouldn’t be as much of a problem as it is now.

Sure. What i question is whether players would like that harder content to get experienced in it in the first place. Observation so far tells me that no, they wouldn’t.

It doesn’t matter if you go up with one step or with ten, if people are complaining not about how hard it is to go up, but how high you go.

Yes. And then all the people that bought the game started posting everywhere how bad HoT is and how it’s aimed at hardcores only. And the negativity started even before, during beta events.

But the vast majority of the Guild Wars 2 population and most casual players do not read the forums. How can something they do not read affect their buying or not buying the game?

Because it wasn’t only on the forums. It was everywhere, even within the game itself. If a player learned there’s a new expac, they also learned that it is kitten.

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Difficulty Level of raids

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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

Though i can understand how you don’t remember that, since it got nerfed really fast.

I think you are the one who don’t remember it very well. Orr wasn’t so hard even at release and the only reason they nerfed the mobs was because it was hard to move around. Not because the mobs were killing people. Orr mobs could not kill people. And be a bit more precise, they added Risen Nobles to Orr who are much harder to fight than any release mob found around Orr.

They also upgraded veteran and champion risen spawning during events to have new abilities because the old versions had no skills worth talking about. They updated champion wraiths, champion spiders, most Orr bosses, veteran risen chicken and so on to give them powerful skills that they did not have at release at all. So basically this nerf you are talking about was actually a buff. They buffed the mob difficulty around Orr while reducing their annoyance factor.

HoT is original Orr upgraded for players with ascended. Relative difficulty is about the same.

HoT mobs have more mechanics and abilities to deal with than Orr mobs ever had. Orr mobs can be killed while auto attacking and not using skills (and could be done even at release), while wearing sub-standard gear. That’s highly impossible with most HoT mobs. You really don’t remember Orr at all if you are saying that Orr difficulty was ever close to HoT difficulty.

It doesn’t matter if you go up with one step or with ten, if people are complaining not about how hard it is to go up, but how high you go.

It’s how many are complaining that is the issue. People will always be complaining about everything, can’t go around that. Limiting the amount of complaining is another thing. And having multiple, proper, tiers of progression helps with that, it’s how the Fractals system work. Btw I always thought that the argument around here was that the Fractal system was good because it offered tiers of difficulty. But I guess it’s not very good after all.

Because it wasn’t only on the forums. It was everywhere, even within the game itself. If a player learned there’s a new expac, they also learned that it is kitten.

Amazing. So the argument of casuals not reading online forums/websites and not researching their games, transforms based on how it suits you? If it suits you that casual players don’t have outside of the game knowledge then it is so. If it suits you that they do then it is so.

And besides that. Suppose that someone says that HoT is bad. How would ANYONE else know that it is bad for them too? How would they know if the difficulty is good for them or not, based on what others say?

Difficulty Level of raids

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Posted by: Astralporing.1957

Astralporing.1957

They also upgraded veteran and champion risen spawning during events to have new abilities because the old versions had no skills worth talking about. They updated champion wraiths, champion spiders, most Orr bosses, veteran risen chicken and so on to give them powerful skills that they did not have at release at all. So basically this nerf you are talking about was actually a buff. They buffed the mob difficulty around Orr while reducing their annoyance factor.

You are talking about individual difficulty. Originally, there was no individual mobs in Orr. The mob density was through the roof, once you attacked a mob (or it attacked you), all nearby ones got involved within seconds, and by the time you got those covered, two new waves were already spawned. And all of them had cc skills, so they kept pushing and pulling. Risen nobles are a joke compared to this, because you can just kill them without involving their neighbors (and there’s at most 1-2 neighbors, not 20 like before).

Btw I always thought that the argument around here was that the Fractal system was good because it offered tiers of difficulty. But I guess it’s not very good after all.

It is, because it is instanced content, and doesn’t require preparations elsewhere. Try that in open world, or require a stairway of different content types, and you will get complains.

Because it wasn’t only on the forums. It was everywhere, even within the game itself. If a player learned there’s a new expac, they also learned that it is kitten.

Amazing. So the argument of casuals not reading online forums/websites and not researching their games, transforms based on how it suits you?

Nope. That’s the point, you didn’t have to research the game to hear those opinions. It was enough to just spend some time in LA (or any major world boss event) listening to the map chat. That stuff was everywhere.

And besides that. Suppose that someone says that HoT is bad. How would ANYONE else know that it is bad for them too? How would they know if the difficulty is good for them or not, based on what others say?

Most people do not buy games they hear are bad just to be sure. If the negative massively overwhelms the positive, most people assume it is true, at least to some degree. Unless they happen to actually like those things that are brought up as examples of how bad it is, of course.

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Difficulty Level of raids

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Posted by: Ashen.2907

Ashen.2907

I found original Orr to be more annoying than difficult. Mob desnity combined with omnipresent CC made getting anywhere a pain, but not really dangerous.

Difficulty Level of raids

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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

The mob density was through the roof, once you attacked a mob (or it attacked you), all nearby ones got involved within seconds, and by the time you got those covered, two new waves were already spawned.

That’s not true. It wasn’t so bad at all. You make it sound like it was unplayable but I was there and many others were there and it wasn’t bad at all. I repeat once more, the reason they tweaked Orr was to make it easier to navigate and less of a pain.

Patch notes: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/January_2013

The Risen creatures all across Orr have had their population density adjusted.

Reduced the creature amount. Combined with

Various Risen creatures have had their skills adjusted to use fewer crowd-control skills.

Together with

Uncontested waypoints have been added to Cursed Shore and Straits of Devastation. Players that have already achieved map completion will retain it without having to discover these new waypoints.

The Patch was all about getting around Orr faster. I guess people didn’t like that they had to kill mobs to move around but wanted to rush through to go to events or to gather materials. But saying that it was actually hard to beat the mobs? That’s not true. Orr was a playground even at release.

It is, because it is instanced content, and doesn’t require preparations elsewhere. Try that in open world, or require a stairway of different content types, and you will get complains.

You can have both easy and hard events in the Open World (as we do) or you are saying that things like Tequatl and Triple Trouble shouldn’t exist? Games should cater to all types of players and this includes the open world part. And as I said, people will always complain, it’s good to ignore some of those.

Most people do not buy games they hear are bad just to be sure. If the negative massively overwhelms the positive, most people assume it is true, at least to some degree. Unless they happen to actually like those things that are brought up as examples of how bad it is, of course.

Difficulty isn’t something you can quantify like that. You can say that HoT zones are a labyrinth to navigate, you can say that they require vertical play (and gliding) you can say that mastery points are hidden in areas that look like jumping puzzles, you can say that some hero challenges have champion mobs guarding them, you can say that the maps have meta events that you must stay on for hours to get rewarded (at release).

Those are all things you can hear and not buy the game because you don’t like what you hear. But actual difficulty? “Hey the game is too hard, don’t buy it” How do you know how difficult it is unless you try it? We are talking about difficulty here you seem to have forgotten that.

(edited by maddoctor.2738)

Difficulty Level of raids

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Adrenalin.5719

Adrenalin.5719

Almost every raid encounter has a role that consists of almost exclusively doing damage; usually the dpser without mobility/range/cleave (the guys who are not tempest) can reduce themselves to dps and a minimum of mechanics. Try those positions if you struggle. Even better with a class that has an easy rotation.

fanboy | A passionate fan of elements of geek culture, letting his passion override social graces
and common sense.

Difficulty Level of raids

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Posted by: Henry.5713

Henry.5713

Personal perception of game difficulty does vary greatly between different groups of players in this game. It is the very reason why there is content catering towards each and every player. From very casual PvE to raids, from WvW blobs to high level tPvP.

And I just don’t understand why it bothers some players so much to not have all content being catered towards their own perception of difficulty.
Many of us do not consider any Open World content, including HoT, to be any challenge. We do not enjoy it much and hardly ever play it. You know, content that is very rewarding if not the most rewarding in this game. So what? There is other stuff to do, better challenges to take and greater fun to be had.

On old Orr, I don’t remember it to have been that hard. Annoying, yes sure and especially if you didn’t run a mobile build. Enemies still died in a cleave or two for me. I had already moved on to dungeons and hardly ever moved to that map long before they nerfed the numbers of enemies, so I don’t remember how much of a difference it made.

Difficulty Level of raids

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Posted by: Blaeys.3102

Blaeys.3102

Personal perception of game difficulty does vary greatly between different groups of players in this game. It is the very reason why there is content catering towards each and every player. From very casual PvE to raids, from WvW blobs to high level tPvP.

And I just don’t understand why it bothers some players so much to not have all content being catered towards their own perception of difficulty.
Many of us do not consider any Open World content, including HoT, to be any challenge. We do not enjoy it much and hardly ever play it. You know, content that is very rewarding if not the most rewarding in this game. So what? There is other stuff to do, better challenges to take and greater fun to be had.

On old Orr, I don’t remember it to have been that hard. Annoying, yes sure and especially if you didn’t run a mobile build. Enemies still died in a cleave or two for me. I had already moved on to dungeons and hardly ever moved to that map long before they nerfed the numbers of enemies, so I don’t remember how much of a difference it made.

Almost no one is advocating for the removal of challenging content. I, for one, believe the game needs more of it.

But not at the cost of accessibility. Challenging content should be an extension of what the game is – not an entirely separate game mode made for a small percentage of the game’s population. At that point, they might as well be making two completely separate games.

Difficulty Level of raids

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Posted by: Feanor.2358

Feanor.2358

Almost no one is advocating for the removal of challenging content. I, for one, believe the game needs more of it.

But not at the cost of accessibility. Challenging content should be an extension of what the game is – not an entirely separate game mode made for a small percentage of the game’s population. At that point, they might as well be making two completely separate games.

There is no accessibility cost. The game offers exactly the same tools for accessing raids as it does for accessing any other content.

Difficulty Level of raids

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Posted by: Astralporing.1957

Astralporing.1957

Almost no one is advocating for the removal of challenging content. I, for one, believe the game needs more of it.

But not at the cost of accessibility. Challenging content should be an extension of what the game is – not an entirely separate game mode made for a small percentage of the game’s population. At that point, they might as well be making two completely separate games.

There is no accessibility cost. The game offers exactly the same tools for accessing raids as it does for accessing any other content.

The same argument is often used to justify the wealth disparity in RL. In both cases it’s not really convincing.

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Remember, remember, 15th of November

Difficulty Level of raids

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Absurdo.8309

Absurdo.8309

Personal perception of game difficulty does vary greatly between different groups of players in this game. It is the very reason why there is content catering towards each and every player. From very casual PvE to raids, from WvW blobs to high level tPvP.

And I just don’t understand why it bothers some players so much to not have all content being catered towards their own perception of difficulty.
Many of us do not consider any Open World content, including HoT, to be any challenge. We do not enjoy it much and hardly ever play it. You know, content that is very rewarding if not the most rewarding in this game. So what? There is other stuff to do, better challenges to take and greater fun to be had.

On old Orr, I don’t remember it to have been that hard. Annoying, yes sure and especially if you didn’t run a mobile build. Enemies still died in a cleave or two for me. I had already moved on to dungeons and hardly ever moved to that map long before they nerfed the numbers of enemies, so I don’t remember how much of a difference it made.

Almost no one is advocating for the removal of challenging content. I, for one, believe the game needs more of it.

But not at the cost of accessibility. Challenging content should be an extension of what the game is – not an entirely separate game mode made for a small percentage of the game’s population. At that point, they might as well be making two completely separate games.

It’s effectively the removal of hard content (by opportunity cost) if the devs need to design and implement easy mode for every raid and future raid.

Difficulty Level of raids

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Posted by: Feanor.2358

Feanor.2358

Almost no one is advocating for the removal of challenging content. I, for one, believe the game needs more of it.

But not at the cost of accessibility. Challenging content should be an extension of what the game is – not an entirely separate game mode made for a small percentage of the game’s population. At that point, they might as well be making two completely separate games.

There is no accessibility cost. The game offers exactly the same tools for accessing raids as it does for accessing any other content.

The same argument is often used to justify the wealth disparity in RL. In both cases it’s not really convincing.

It doesn’t have to be convincing when it’s true. Let’s not derail the topic into a society debate and focus on the game.

When you think about it, what is the accessibility issue? It’s being difficult to find a group. Why is it difficult? Because groups tend to reject players who don’t meet their criteria. What does that mean when you compare it to other content, where it is very easy to find a group and not get rejected? It means the players care more about your performance. In low tier fractals you can enter with literally anything and nobody would care. For one simple reason – you’ll still faceroll the content regardless of your builds. Up the challenge a bit and players start asking questions. Up it a little further and they start requiring specific roles and builds in their group.

You cannot have challenging content and keep the same level of “friendliness” of the community. I’m putting quotes there because it’s wrong to count that as friendliness. It really is a simple indifference. The more challenging the content becomes, the less indifferent and the less tolerant toward inefficiencies the people become. In this sense, accessibility will always be the cost of challenging content. However, that cost only applies if you’re unwilling to adapt. In other words, it is only ever an issue if you make it one yourself. It’s all in your mind.

Difficulty Level of raids

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Posted by: Solstace.2514

Solstace.2514

You can complete pretty much all encounters with 50% of the dps of a highly skilled group, that’s how forgiving the bosses are. Mechanics wise there are some punishing ones and some not so punishing, but it’s not like they require a degree in rocket science to learn.

Completely agree. Way too much focus on dps. Don’t get me wrong, it’s important and makes raids easier but I’d take mastery of the mechanics of the raid over extra dps. What causes most raids to fail isn’t lack of dps but failing or performing badly at some specific mechanic.

Difficulty Level of raids

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Posted by: Astralporing.1957

Astralporing.1957

In this sense, accessibility will always be the cost of challenging content. However, that cost only applies if you’re unwilling to adapt. In other words, it is only ever an issue if you make it one yourself. It’s all in your mind.

Not true, for more reason than one. First, not everyone is able to adapt. The content can only be considered challenging if there are people that are unable to do it. Second, the cost is not on an individual, but on a whole community. You, personally may adapt, but everyone else is still paying the price of your fun. Third, even if you personally adapt, you may still end up paying the price – that is, if you happened to have friends that ended up on the other side of the divide.

In the end, it’s that third case that’s most damaging.

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Remember, remember, 15th of November

Difficulty Level of raids

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Posted by: Feanor.2358

Feanor.2358

The point is, if you claim the game needs challenging content, then said price is inevitable. The game cannot do anything to offset it, only you can and your actions ultimately only affect yourself.

If you claim the game needs to be casual everywhere, that’s another story. However, these game exist and they have names like “Candy crush saga”.

Difficulty Level of raids

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Astralporing.1957

Astralporing.1957

The point is, if you claim the game needs challenging content, then said price is inevitable.

Well, i don’t claim it. I never asked for any challenging content at all. I was perfectly fine with the difficulty of pre-HoT game.

Besides, it’s not really inevitable. The price is a direct result not of the challenge level, but of the fact that it’s a group content, and a 10-man at that. With 5-man content the cost would be much, much smaller, for example. It would also be much smaller if there were no incentives to bring in players that didn’t really like that type of content, and/or if it was less time-consuming.

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Remember, remember, 15th of November

(edited by Astralporing.1957)