Gnome Child [Gc]
Disapointed with raids
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Yeah dlonie, I do think you are insane. I’ve owned this game since shortly after launch and i’ve only recently reached the 2k hour mark, I’ve read the forums since I started playing and I always see the same names posting here, I know first hand that some of the people disagreeing with me, saying “it’s just a beta, they’re just trash mobs, we love the agony mechanic etc” are people that have 5k+ hours in the game, it would only make sense that they try and defend the game they have put so much time into. I’m glad I haven’t put as much time into the game as some of these people, because I have friends that have played other mmos and are in the 5 digit number of hours played with other games and they are legitimately too scared to leave because they have put way too much time into it.
I’m not saying this is the case for everyone that has played a lot, but I do know I would not believe a word they have said, given the past dungeon rework, the fractured update, aetherpath, the halting development of dungeons the ever growing list of dungeon bugs that seems to mysteriously go unnoticed.
(edited by Evapor.6849)
Not sure what to say then. You are, of course, free to be rude and offer hostile, unconstructive criticism of fresh, unbalanced content that you have neither played nor even seen the entirety of, while the people who made it sitting right here asking “How can we make this better?”. If that’s who you want to be, cool. Have fun.
The rest of us will still just be shaking our heads though.
(edited by dlonie.6547)
Well because Evapor and Bladex now get Personal I think it best to ignore them now
In most limited betas they showcase their absolute best of the best, they often refine the content and make sure it is grabbing the players attention, I don’t like that this was what they chose, I’m certain that there will be much better encounters and more developed areas that we did not get to see, I don’t think the vale guardian boss was interesting, I’m very excited to see that the bosses will have actual phases and I hope they expand on it, I hear they have wildstar developers on their team and I’ve heard good things about those raids.
My constructive criticism is me saying i’m not a fan tick, unavoidable damage. I’m not a fan of forcing everyone to run a gimmick build by making the boss straight up immune, the boss models and animations aren’t very good in my opinion. I even suggested adding a build template system if they are going to force people to change traitlines and gear before each encounter, this is already something I do in the live game when I go from condi to power for example, it’s tedious and uninteresting. If this isn’t constructive I don’t know what is.
Well because Evapor and Bladex now get Personal I think it best to ignore them now
Where exactly do you see me “getting personal”?, but feel free to ignore me, your input isn’t really useful anyways
Evapor, I dont think they want the same player to swap between condi and power between bosses as required. I think the reason they designed a “condi-vulnerable” boss is to force to bring in your party, both a power and a condi player, so 1 player of each.
Unfortunately for them the mechanic is really boring and in the end, people would just rather to have 1 player swap gear and to bring 2 players with different gear.
“You haven’t killed the boss yet. I’m glad you’re saying content you haven’t beat is too easy, seems smart.”
Anyone who’s experienced enough can guesstimate how hard content is after the appropriate number of pulls; more pulls are needed the more complex and difficult the content you’re doing is. Your comment just shows how inexperienced you are when it comes to consuming actually difficult content. Please note that I’m not defending the guy you’re quoting, I’m bashing you for saying something incredibly stupid in response to someone who said something even dumber.
“Why are people so confused by the fact that these first three mobs are NOT actually the boss?”
My guess is a complete lack of experience with raiding and the fact that they’ve been accustomed to entirely trivial content for 3 years and that experiencing something that can’t be beaten by randomly mashing buttons on your keyboard for 30 seconds has warped their sense of what “difficulty” really is.
“Even if the mechanics aren’t desirable for the boss, they’re a lot more engaging than anything else is in this game.”
Doesn’t matter if the end result is still an easy fight. If a group can get the boss down to 25% within a few hours of the raid going live, then the fight isn’t nearly difficult enough to be considered challenging. More difficult than anything else in GW2? Probably. Difficult compared to actually hard raid encounters from other games or just other games/mods in general? Not at all.
“they’re looking to open a dialogue with us and they certainly seem to be saying the right things when it comes to being accepting of feedback and constructive criticism”
Saying that content is dull and easy can be seen as constructive criticism. Go read up on what the term actually means.
“the more people that something requires to participate in does not make it more challenging”
Coordination, logistics and drama. Ever heard of those?
“and that is a reason to play tanky/healer type builds”
I haven’t seen anything that requires tank/healer builds so far. Maybe other bosses will require those builds, but from what I’ve seen so far, it’s definitely not needed for the first boss unless he does something special at very low health.
Wildstar had 40 man raids, only a small percentage of the community actually tried to raid, and even smaller percentage would be able to get a group that size, people told the devs at carbine that 40 man raiding was a bad idea yet they released and surprise surprise, it failed. Spending 20 minutes before each encounter baby monitoring all the sheep in your group should not be considered part of the difficulty, I suppose making sure 10 peoples schedules line up for every weekly lockout is what you consider to be part of the immersive challenge.
“they’re looking to open a dialogue with us and they certainly seem to be saying the right things when it comes to being accepting of feedback and constructive criticism”
Saying that content is dull and easy can be seen as constructive criticism. Go read up on what the term actually means.
Ok: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_criticism
Constructive criticism is the process of offering valid and well-reasoned opinions about the work of others, usually involving both positive and negative comments, in a friendly manner rather than an oppositional one.
Let’s see if this thread has lived up to that, shall we?
- Valid and well reasoned opinions? Well, opinions are subjective, so it’s hard to say. But I’d say that expecting unbalanced content in a beta test to be an accurate prediction of the final product’s exact form is not a very well reasoned exercise. Particularly when judging from only seeing a portion of the encounter, not in person, but on a twitch stream. Beta content is typically tuned to be easier so that the devs can get feedback on the entire fight. If no one could get the boss lower than say, 90%, over the course of the weekend, there wouldn’t be much to get feedback on, eh? That’s sort of the entire point of this weekend.
- Negative comments? Oh yeah. This thread’s got tons of them.
- Positive comments? Not so much.
-Friendly, non-oppositional tone? Well, let’s just say some of us are trying harder than others here.
That profile doesn’t sound like constructive criticism to me. It sounds like uninformed kittening.
shrugs
(edited by dlonie.6547)
I wasn’t aware that opinions were locked behind a pre-purchase wall, ill just copy what I said since you apparently didn’t read it. Do I need to be ingame and witness the recoloured mobs or the immune, unavoidable damage to say firmly I don’t like this.
In most limited betas they showcase their absolute best of the best, they often refine the content and make sure it is grabbing the players attention, I don’t like that this was what they chose, I’m certain that there will be much better encounters and more developed areas that we did not get to see, I don’t think the vale guardian boss was interesting, I’m very excited to see that the bosses will have actual phases and I hope they expand on it, I hear they have wildstar developers on their team and I’ve heard good things about those raids.
My constructive criticism is me saying i’m not a fan tick, unavoidable damage. I’m not a fan of forcing everyone to run a gimmick build by making the boss straight up immune, the boss models and animations aren’t very good in my opinion. I even suggested adding a build template system if they are going to force people to change traitlines and gear before each encounter, this is already something I do in the live game when I go from condi to power for example, it’s tedious and uninteresting. If this isn’t constructive I don’t know what is.
I wasn’t aware that opinions were locked behind a pre-purchase wall, ill just copy what I said since you apparently didn’t read it. Do I need to be ingame and witness the recoloured mobs or the immune, unavoidable damage to say firmly I don’t like this.
It’d help. But really, the main problem people have with your posts is that you’ve been making claims about content, when the facts clearly aren’t in yet. You saw 20% of the first boss fight, before balancing, and were rushing to condemn the CGC as not being developed with challenge in mind, and spouting paranoid conspiracies that they pulled the content because they were embarrassed that players were progressing in it.
Then you went on to claim that mobs that actually have very unique (albeit underpowered) mechanics were “literal recolors” of the same fight.
It doesn’t make you seem like a terribly levelheaded individual when you step back and look at your posts this weekend, and at the end of the day, we haven’t even seen the boss get killed yet. Could it be too easy? Sure. But do you think it might be prudent to wait until someone gets it down before you start making those sorts of accusations towards the raid team?
In most limited betas they showcase their absolute best of the best
There are other factors at play here. They’ve mentioned that this boss was chosen because it doesn’t require any masteries and there are no story spoilers as part of the fight. Sure, I’d love to see their best, too, but we got the introductory boss to test instead. It doesn’t mean it’s meant to be the pinnacle of challenge in the raid, and again — we haven’t even seen all of his phases, so we don’t really even know what he can do.
I don’t think the vale guardian boss was interesting
That’s sort of the problem — you saw 20% of the fight. Assuming that he’s like most other multiphase bosses in this game that phase at 75%, you saw one phase and dismissed the entire encounter. Does that seem rational?
Would you dismiss Lupi as a wholly unchallenging boss because a party can easily range him through phase 1 with next to no effort? No, it’s a single phase, and it gets more interesting as the encounter progresses.
My constructive criticism is me saying i’m not a fan tick, unavoidable damage. I’m not a fan of forcing everyone to run a gimmick build by making the boss straight up immune, the boss models and animations aren’t very good in my opinion. I even suggested adding a build template system if they are going to force people to change traitlines and gear before each encounter, this is already something I do in the live game when I go from condi to power for example, it’s tedious and uninteresting. If this isn’t constructive I don’t know what is.
That is better. If it’d been expressed without the premature conclusions and paranoid outburst the first time around, you might not have made such a large splash.
Who knew all it takes is a few red posts to make everyone in the dungeon a rabid Anet defender? (Joking… kinda.)
My constructive criticism is me saying i’m not a fan tick, unavoidable damage. I’m not a fan of forcing everyone to run a gimmick build by making the boss straight up immune, the boss models and animations aren’t very good in my opinion. I even suggested adding a build template system if they are going to force people to change traitlines and gear before each encounter, this is already something I do in the live game when I go from condi to power for example, it’s tedious and uninteresting. If this isn’t constructive I don’t know what is.
IMO these are all valid criticisms that can be made without having played the game.
Want people to use less zerker gear? Unavoidable damage! Want condi people? Direct damage immunity! Want direct damage people? Condi immunity!
More unavoidable agony and Alphards, is that what the game really needs?
“- Valid and well reasoned opinions? Well, opinions are subjective, so it’s hard to say. But I’d say that expecting unbalanced content in a beta test to be an accurate prediction of the final product’s exact form is not a very well reasoned exercise.”
You’re dead wrong. No company would do a semi open beta test of their product if the product wasn’t already completed or nearly completed. It just isn’t done. You show a (nearly) complete product in order to mass test and find bugs before launch that your QA team missed and to gather feedback for last minute or post launch balancing/design tweaks. Alpha tests are for testing extremely buggy and unfinished content, NOT a beta test 3 weeks from live. This is pretty much as finished as it gets.
“Particularly when judging from only seeing a portion of the encounter, not in person, but on a twitch stream. Beta content is typically tuned to be easier so that the devs can get feedback on the entire fight.”
There’s no indication that they made the boss easier for the beta event. And I’ve never heard of a MMO design team and engineers taking time off of making the product ready for launch by spending hours and hours designing and implementing a system to let the lowest common denominator beat difficult content. If there is such a practice out there, feel free to point it out with concrete evidence so I can laugh at them for wasting precious time and funds that could have went towards making the real end product better.
“If no one could get the boss lower than say, 90%, over the course of the weekend, there wouldn’t be much to get feedback on, eh?”
If no one had been able to get the boss below 90% over the course of the beta weekend event, then Anet could’ve proudly patted themselves on the back and said that they had, in fact, released appropriately challenging raid content. Beta testers don’t need to beat the fight or even get close to beating it to provide good feedback or to find bugs. If the devs are competent and if the testers are competent, then the devs can extrapolate data based on the feedback given. Take for example all the people commenting on “the first 3 bosses”: the devs can infer that these players are extremely inexperienced and that their feedback on TUNING is worthless and that their feedback on mechanics should be taken with caution as it probably doesn’t represent the thoughts of their target audience. Another example would be a competent tester posting feedback about the fight in regards to exact group composition, traits, utilities, consumables, strategies and phases they’ve gone through. With that feedback, the devs can guess how skilled and how well min-maxed the group is and roughly know if that group’s approximate skill, coordination, gear and trait choices matches those that the devs, QA and alpha testers used to test/beat the fight. After doing that, they can know how well balanced their fight is; and if enough raid groups post feedback of the sort, they can then adjust values for the boss to be more in line with the intended difficulty of the fight. Nothing in there needs to have a raid group of beta testers be able to beat the fight in order to provide helpful feedback.
“That’s sort of the entire point of this weekend.”
Like I said above, the point of this weekend is advertising, PR, polishing, testing and bug hunting. They’re not putting up an unfinished product for us to beat our heads against. Unless they decide that their first boss is a complete failure as it is and overhaul it (which I think they should, given that a group has already almost beat it with only a few hours worth of attempts), then what we’ve seen on the beta test yesterday is pretty close to what we’re going to get come raid release.
“- Negative comments? Oh yeah. This thread’s got tons of them.
- Positive comments? Not so much."
Have you considered that the fact that there is an overwhelming disparity between the negative and positive feedback is due to the fact that the content they released is subpar compared to what their competitors have been putting out for over 15 years and doesn’t meet the expectations of players who thought that the content would be, you know, challenging?
“Friendly, non-oppositional tone? Well, let’s just say some of us are trying harder than others here.”
Apologists and white knights are far, far more harmful when giving feedback than people who only give negative feedback or people who do little more than complain. They give the developers a false sense of security in their content, basically telling them that everything is fine and nothing should be changed when it’s the opposite. The best feedback is the harsh truth with no sugar coating, no nice words to soften the blow and no tact. You should aim to give feedback to designers as bluntly as you swing a sledgehammer. Thoughtful and inspired suggestions are always a plus, but not necessary; it’s the devs’ job to improve, build upon and change their own content to match their vision, but it’s also their job to make sure that the content matches what was advertised and lives up to the hype around said content.
Want people to use less zerker gear? Unavoidable damage!
Most of the damage on that fight looks to be avoidable. The ticking aura is quite low damage, it just ensures there is some value in the aoe healing and support. Nothing to do with gear, there is a timer to stop you sponging it to death anyway. If your group has regeneration, which isn’t difficult, that outheals the aura. Though I wouldn’t want every single boss to have an aura like that.
Just feel like there’s a whole bunch of players who are so used to just mashing 1 with the exact same traits/utilities every fight that if that suddenly doesn’t seem possible they scream “this is BULL!”
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I’m going to only reply to a part of this, since my response to most of your points is the same: beta content is not release content.
If no one had been able to get the boss below 90% over the course of the beta weekend event, then Anet could’ve proudly patted themselves on the back and said that they had, in fact, released appropriately challenging raid content. Beta testers don’t need to beat the fight or even get close to beating it to provide good feedback or to find bugs. If the devs are competent and if the testers are competent, then the devs can extrapolate data based on the feedback given.
This doesn’t make a lot of sense. If it never got below 90%, how would that expose bugs and balance issues in phases that the boss never reached? Take Lupi: How would getting him to 90% show that his phase 3 dome currently misses by a mile, or that his phase 2 shadowstep sometimes sends him across the room, turns him invisible, and prevents his telegraphs from being useful?
A beta test is not the time for them to pat themselves on the back for stumping the players. That’s what happens at release. A beta test is for testing as much of the encounter as possible while changing many variables to expose weaknesses and bugs.
Beta tests are not for showing off. They’re for testing. Hence test.
Take for example all the people commenting on “the first 3 bosses”: the devs can infer that these players are extremely inexperienced and that their feedback on TUNING is worthless and that their feedback on mechanics should be taken with caution as it probably doesn’t represent the thoughts of their target audience.
Not sure what this is about. Every complaint I’ve seen about the guardians is that they’re too easy. Are you saying the inexperienced players are the ones finding it too easy, and the experienced players are finding it to be properly challenging? Please correct me if I’m not understanding you correctly.
Apologists and white knights are far, far more harmful when giving feedback than people who only give negative feedback or people who do little more than complain.
Point me at a post that’s apologetic or whiteknighting. What I see is people simply saying “we haven’t seen the entire fight yet, we don’t have all of the facts to draw conclusions.” That’s not whiteknighting to me, that’s being reasonable and actually wanting to get the entire story before assessing it.
“This doesn’t make a lot of sense. If it never got below 90%, how would that expose bugs and balance issues in phases that the boss never reached?”
It wouldn’t, but that’s not the point. I’m addressing two different things there: if no one gets the boss low (and everything is functioning properly), then the boss is most likely genuinely difficult, which is a good thing. However, if the boss does get lower and other parts of the fights are discovered and tested, then the devs can get feedback on that too, but that may mean the earlier phases aren’t all difficult, or at least are manageable.
“A beta test is for testing as much of the encounter as possible while changing many variables to expose weaknesses and bugs.”
From my experience, the devs can just tag along in the more progressed/competent raid groups doing beta tests and cheat to help the raids get to other phases. But maybe the GW2 devs don’t have access to those tools or don’t want to proceed that way? What I do know is that you can’t have everything during a time limited beta test. The devs won’t get feedback on every little part of the encounters they’ve created; that’s the job of their QA team and alpha testers. If the Anet devs want to spend their time and resources to make the content more accessible in order to get a broader, it certainly is their prerogative, however, diluting the feedback they receive by allowing lesser skilled/practiced players to give somewhat relevant feedback may prove detrimental by making it harder for the devs to discern the tester’s perceived difficulty of the fight. Can’t have everything.
“Not sure what this is about.”
Anyone who’s ever raided, even casually, would know that the first three mobs are trash pulls. Anyone calling them “bosses” or “mini bosses” is clearly completely inexperienced when it comes to raiding. Those players aren’t the target audience for the GW2 raids and thus can be largely ignored.
“Point me at a post that’s apologetic or whiteknighting. "
NikeEU.7690, Pandabro.8743, Laggo.8973, Purple Miku.7032, HwaRyun.1807, TheFamster.7806, Brimstar.9036 and Zui.9245 all give off white knight vibes. It seems to me that they’re all attacking the people who are criticizing the raid for being too easy and lacking in the mechanical depth department without actually addressing the points being brought up. Again, to me, that’s stereotypical white knight behavior: relentlessly bash anyone who dares to say something negative about what you like.
To go more in depth: the main point of this thread is that the raid boss and its trash are too easy and lacking in terms of mechanics. While the few people who are bringing up and defending the topic are doing so in a horrendous way (backseat raiding, HA!), it doesn’t diminish their point in the slightest. If their arguments had been met with valid counterarguments and if people had tried to prove that the raids were actually difficult and that the mechanics required a lot of attention and understanding to properly handle, then they would be justified in arguing back with the general point of the thread. However, very little to none of this is happening, hell, the more level headed responses in this thread tend to agree that the raid seems, so far, to be too easy. What I’m seeing from the people I named are basically the equivalent of that image macro where the guy says “b-b-b-but it’s just a beta, b-b-b-but it’s just the first phase, b-b-b-but it’s just the fight boss in the raid”.
I guess that settles it they won’t bother trying to fix the raids for this weekend because it ain’t worth their time, if you honestly think this weekend was about getting players in to test an unfinished encounter then you should probably stop reading and continue living in your bubble, enjoy the release.
NikeEU.7690, Pandabro.8743, Laggo.8973, Purple Miku.7032, HwaRyun.1807, TheFamster.7806, Brimstar.9036 and Zui.9245 all give off white knight vibes. It seems to me that they’re all attacking the people who are criticizing the raid for being too easy and lacking in the mechanical depth department without actually addressing the points being brought up. Again, to me, that’s stereotypical white knight behavior: relentlessly bash anyone who dares to say something negative about what you like..
K so you’ve already proven yourself to be completely clueless referring to me of all people as a white knight. It’s very rare for me to take a stance that’s in defense of anet. This time is one of them because I tend to side with those that think rationally and don’t behave like self-entitled children.
There’s absolutely no post of mine where I “relentlessly bash anyone who dares say something negative about what I don’t like” here. I didn’t say even once that I even like the raids. In fact, I found them to be an overall disappointment. Does that mean that I’m not allowed to post to tell some guy who hasn’t even tried the content at all that he’s being ridiculous? Am I a white knight for trying to get someone to chill out and actually try the content before going into a fit of hysterical rage?
I’m still hysterical, there’s people actually apologizing to anet for the raids not working.
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