Guild Wars 2

CptAurellian.9537:

snip.

They’re exploitative because they exploit oversights in how the game or fight works.

Exploits and bugs are not the same.
Distortion working on green circles for VG is an exploit, not a bug. Technically speaking both are working as intended, even if that’s not how the fight is intended.
Anet doesn’t fix this because they likely see it as a unique and interesting alternative way to clear the content. So why on earth would they take peoples’ toys away when they’re having fun?

But this doesn’t change the fact that all of the people in the party don’t have to deal with green circles. one or two players now deal with the mechanics instead of four. Personal responsibility has been cut in half for that mechanic.
Druids often solo deal with seekers, stand the boss in the right spot and then tides every now and then. No longer a party problem, just the druid’s problem.
So most of the fight, two to four people actually do the mechanics in a group of ten.
A fraction of the group experiences any sort of ‘difficulty’ while the rest simply dps a dummy. And because the enrage for VG is 53k and some change; you will likely never see an enrage timer.

And it’s worth mentioning that in both of these examples it’s a single button press.
One of which is an instant cast.

When I think exploit, I think of the old portal strategy in mo and escort. These break the encounter is some way. To me, distorting mechanics isn’t so much an exploit as it is an oversight in balance, wouldn’t you agree?

Murdock.6547:

Distortion working on green circles for VG is an exploit, not a bug.

No it’s not. What are you even on about here?

Sephylon.4938:

When I think exploit, I think of the old portal strategy in mo and escort. These break the encounter is some way. To me, distorting mechanics isn’t so much an exploit as it is an oversight in balance, wouldn’t you agree?

Exactly this.

Murdock.6547:

Exploits and bugs are not the same.
Distortion working on green circles for VG is an exploit, not a bug. Technically speaking both are working as intended, even if that’s not how the fight is intended.

Source? How do you know Anet intended for only a single method of handling mechanics?

CptAurellian.9537:

Sephylon.4938:

When I think exploit, I think of the old portal strategy in mo and escort. These break the encounter is some way. To me, distorting mechanics isn’t so much an exploit as it is an oversight in balance, wouldn’t you agree?

Exactly this.

I can agree, and Arenanet did in fact stick to their guns with this and instead create something like Deimos where you have to use a block as Distort or Dodge doesn’t work on that AoE attack.

I’m of the belief that the Raid Dev Team has picked and combed through the feedback, strategies, builds, anything 10-man relevant when it comes to their first set of Raids. They probably don’t want to go back to fix KC but instead get around to it when the tech is developed to make those the AI and mechanics actually work…maybe for a future encounter. But they do learn from how Green Circles are treated with invulns and specifically narrowed down a new type of attack that needs to be blocked and is undodgable/goes through invuln.

No one can say how difficult the next raid will be. I hope they push us again since we are getting new tools, stats and builds to develop with PoF Specs, and since the recent new Fractal CM I have confidence we will see a Difficulty increase with the new Expansion. Or at least the mechanics will be engaging and fresh enough for us all.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Okay so if it is admitted that it was always about loot, then what? Why is this bad? You have yet to give proper reason as to why locking prestige behind challenge is any way shape or form bad when we have clear societal reasons that dictate that doing so benefits society as an entirety and provides people an avenue to become someone better than they are now. I can give you millions of reasons as to why its good to do this.

I have to say, I love your honesty, it’s refreshing to not deal with people that try to sugar coat their self serving desires, and there is a greater level of openness we can have in a discussion once we are really willing to get to the point, and our earnest motives. So, with that said, lets us dispense with the illusions and understand that the only reason for these discussions back and forth is pure unadulterated self serving greed… on both sides.

So, what’s the problem if they make PvE content for your level and style of play that is not only different but against how I want to enjoy this game. I mean we can use all kinds of analogies in real life to justify those that are better at the game should get more reward, and we will use all kinds of things like Employment to Sports.

Well first off, Sports does not work, because PvE , most notably Instanced based PvE is not even remotely competitive as there is absolutely zero competition against other players. Since all PvE is scripted, PvE is akin to doing a choreographed dance. Now you might at this point mention things like “Dancing with the Stars” but again, Instance Based PvE content, there is no competition, no one has to defeat anyone else to get a victory.

There is no victory or defeat to another team in PvE, thus it is not competitive or sport like.

You’re not even really competing against the NPC, you’re simply learning the dance steps and position among your troupe on how to put on a passingly good enough show. in short PvE is a routine not a sport.

Lets go to Employment. This one tricky, because no matter how many times it gets said, it seems to get lost on the receiver, but, this is a game, not a job. In fact, playing this games is so far removed from being my job, that I paid to play it.

Yes, I paid to play it, and truth be told, I paid just as much if not more then you did to play this game. So, involving PvE, why should you get more content designed for your style of play then me when we both invested the same amount of money?

lets go back to that whole Greed Thing and realize that this is my entertainment, not something I am doing professionally, this is my escape from my professional life and truth be told, the reality is, no matter how much we might want to believe otherwise, people don’t fund someone else’s fun.

Remember, you mentioned how competition among companies keeps costs down, allows them to grow and get better, and that goes back to this little discussion between us. Anet is selling entertainment, I don’t work for them, they in essence work for me, for all of us, and their job is to keep us happy and entertained, and in return we continue to pay into their game.

Raids came in and put that out as the PVE “End Game”, so now the whole game for a PvE player is about getting ready to raid, well what happens to all the people that didn’t want to raid, that loved this game because it did not have that myopic end game ? Well truth be told, often enough they don’t quit, (some do), but they still try to have fun other ways, but almost always they feel… I’m gonna say ‘A little let down" maybe go so far as to say ’slightly annoyed’ that they are not enraged, they are not kittened, mostly, it’s more a feeling of having the wind taken out of their sails.

But what happens when that happens? Oh right, they spend less. Now they may not stop spending at all, but they will spend less, I know I used to drop 40 – 80 a month on this game before HoT came out, and I bought 2 of their largest X-pac’s, (gifted one to a friend because I wanted to share this game with them)… yah… that ended.

Let me ask you directly a question, and this is to you, no one else, did Anet make money off you? Did your feelings of being great and better then other people inspire you to spend at least as much as they lost by me feeling left out and leaving?

(rephrased: Did you suddenly start spending around 40 a month more because there was content just for you and your level of play?)

Now.. see the real world problem with being a company that panhandles frivolous entertainment in a competitive and I might add saturated market trying to sell content that makes entire demographics feel left out?.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

You have yet to give proper reason as to why locking prestige behind challenge is any way shape or form bad when we have clear societal reasons that dictate that doing so benefits society as an entirety and provides people an avenue to become someone better than they are now. I can give you millions of reasons as to why its good to do this.

Actually, no, we don’t have any such clear societal reasons for that. You’re mistaking the cause and effect here. Locking prestige behind challenge is often beneficial, that’s true, but it’s never about locking prestige behind challenge in general. It’s always because promoting people to rise to that specific challenge is beneficial. Notice, that i didn’t say beneficial for the society, because quite often it’s not the society as a whole that benefits, but only a small subset of it (sometimes at the cost of a different subset).

Also, loot does not equal prestige.

STIHL.2489:

snip.

This is a really good post TBH.

One side comment that I will add is that often for me, I like the comparison to things like “sport or pvp” not because they are focused on winning/losing against someone, but rather on your own side you coordinate with a team of other people. I was a competitive swimmer for 20 years and in some scenarios (not all) you aren’t really racing against the competition, but rather against the clock. That being said, the biggest enjoyment is still being involved with your other teammates, even if you aren’t “winning/losing”. For me (maybe not everyone), I get a similar feeling with raiding in that you are working together to accomplish something, not necessarily against someone.

I have a sincere question related to the “wind out of your sails” feeling, because it isn’t something that I feel but I’m curious about. If you had 100% confirmation that without raiding you would not have any additional content that you did like, would you still feel this way? Or is the feeling due to the feeling of “oh man I could have had more of <X> if the time wasn’t spent on raiding”? If the raids are only an addition to the game and not having them is only a subtraction, then the “let down” feeling makes less sense to me because functionally every other part of the game is the same. In fact, there could be other areas of the game that are worse off due to not having raiding (looking at special action key, but I know that isn’t important to you in particular).

ButterPeanut.9746:

STIHL.2489:

snip.

This is a really good post TBH.

One side comment that I will add is that often for me, I like the comparison to things like “sport or pvp” not because they are focused on winning/losing against someone, but rather on your own side you coordinate with a team of other people. I was a competitive swimmer for 20 years and in some scenarios (not all) you aren’t really racing against the competition, but rather against the clock. That being said, the biggest enjoyment is still being involved with your other teammates, even if you aren’t “winning/losing”. For me (maybe not everyone), I get a similar feeling with raiding in that you are working together to accomplish something, not necessarily against someone.

I have a sincere question related to the “wind out of your sails” feeling, because it isn’t something that I feel but I’m curious about. If you had 100% confirmation that without raiding you would not have any additional content that you did like, would you still feel this way? Or is the feeling due to the feeling of “oh man I could have had more of <X> if the time wasn’t spent on raiding”? If the raids are only an addition to the game and not having them is only a subtraction, then the “let down” feeling makes less sense to me because functionally every other part of the game is the same. In fact, there could be other areas of the game that are worse off due to not having raiding (looking at special action key, but I know that isn’t important to you in particular).

This s a wonderful question, and I’ll do my best to answer is as fully as I can. Personally, it’s not the Raid itself that is the problem, but the lack of parallel progression paths that is the actual problem. raids took a game that was once very open at what could be considered end-game and with raids there is this very myopic “This is End-Game” presence about them, which is mainly due to their loot/rewards. While some might praise that hand held direction towards what to do at cap, it becomes this coerced direction for everyone that wants to progress in the PvE of this game.

Previous to Raids, there was no sense of that deftness of direction, but, now their is. But in doing so, they pretty much took everyone that was not into raiding or wanting to get involved in raiding, or maybe just the people that did not want to deal with scheduling their around these activities, or did not want to have to deal wit coordinated group activities, and liked soloing, or maybe just being that naked Norn running around Jormag and while maybe didn’t add much DPS, did add a lot of flavor to the event, in short, it took all the people that simply wanted to play a game for the sake of it being a game, where they always felt like they were moving along, even if they were just goofing around and took that feeling of progress no matter how incremental and tore it asunder, to throw in their in face that.. No.. No you are not making any progress anymore., and making it clear, Unless they are willing to raid, there really is no future for them in this game.

While such a feeling often does not enrage people, it does not kitten them, it does discourage them, it makes them feel like there is really no reason to keep playing. because they simply no longer see the goal as something they want to get to. Which is what taking the wind of someone sails means.. it removes their motivation to keep moving forward.

Now, of course they may still play, they may really love the other parts of the game, so they hang around and do that, they will do what they can to starve off what they know is the inevitable, but they do so, now knowing that what they are doing is trying to not make progress towards an ‘end game’ , but for all intents and purposes, they are only buying time till they get burned out and leave.. as at some point, they know that unless they are willing to do what it takes to become a Raider, they are stonewalled. Some simply deny it, others realize it and still hang around in hope things will change, while others, this game is now a time pass till the next one comes out, and yet others will just walk away.

But no matter what, there is a feeling, a sense, that their is no real future here for them. so, they often quietly cease to be as invested into the game. Suddenly other things are more important, much, more important. suddenly.. 10 dollars feels like a lot money where once a C-note was money well spent.

It is what it is. we can’t change human nature, we all play for the same self serving reasons.

STIHL.2489:

Previous to Raids, there was no sense of that deftness of direction, but, now their is. But in doing so, they pretty much took everyone that was not into raiding or wanting to get involved in raiding, or maybe just the people that did not want to deal with scheduling their around these activities, or did not want to have to deal wit coordinated group activities, and liked soloing, or maybe just being that naked Norn running around Jormag and while maybe didn’t add much DPS, did add a lot of flavor to the event, in short, it took all the people that simply wanted to play a game for the sake of it being a game, where they always felt like they were moving along, even if they were just goofing around and took that feeling of progress no matter how incremental and tore it asunder, to throw in their in face that.. No.. No you are not making any progress anymore., and making it clear, Unless they are willing to raid, there really is no future for them in this game.

I agree with you, but I also don’t believe this is specific to raiding (hence not putting the blame on raiding). The reward structure in WvW is completely reworked and has a focused goal. Same with PvP. Interestingly enough, I would argue that all of the living story S3 maps are also affected by this. The goal of all of those maps it to complete the content for the unique map currency which can be used for exclusive rewards, both ascended and legendary.

To me, this seems like an entire game shift in design (clear trackable rewards for repeatable content)…not just a problem that was "caused’ by raiding.

ButterPeanut.9746:

STIHL.2489:

ButterPeanut.9746:

STIHL.2489:

thrag.9740:

Yh, idgaf how wow does raids. This is a different game, not a wow clone, if you want wow go play wow.

This post perfectly encapsulates why raids never should have been put into the game to start.

Nice blanket statement that is not true at all for so many people.

Its as if there are other reasons people do/don’t play WoW other than raids and reasons why people do/don’t play gw2 other than raids…oh wait thats exactly what the reality is.

If not for some desire to make this game mimic the raid culture of WoW, why would anyone want a raid put into a game that never had them to start with?

A similarly named content can be added without “mimicing raid culture”. Nowhere in gw2 is there a gear treadmill between raids.

I for one loved gw2 combat, community, play style, etc but wanted more challenging group content in the game that I already liked. Raiding alone wasn’t going to pull me to WoW, nor was not having raiding in gw2 pulling me away. I wasn’t going to WoW either way, but I sure as heck wanted more challenging group content in the game I was sticking with.

If a single addition of a type of content into a game you currently are playing drives you away from playing that game, then you clearly didn’t enjoy it as much as you thought.

Here are just a few things that this game never had “to start with”:
- Fractals
- Ascended
- Expansions
- Revenant
- Wardrobe
- Salvage All
- etc

Would you tell someone who loved Revenant that they should have gone to WoW? Or some other game where an “energy based melee class” existed?

Games will continue to change and add content. Otherwise they die and don’t make money. Saying that something shouldn’t exist because “it didn’t have it to start with” 100% invalidates your entire opinion on the subject.

The key difference is how they’re replacing old content with mechanics that punish you for not being flawless. If you don’t like the new Fractal-Raids or Raids, then your only option for group content is dungeons, which aren’t exactly popular these days.

Makai.3429:

The key difference is how they’re replacing old content with mechanics that punish you for not being flawless. If you don’t like the new Fractal-Raids or Raids, then your only option for group content is dungeons, which aren’t exactly popular these days.

Every content punishes you for not being flawless, that’s what games do. The only difference is the actual margin of error you get. Raids do have lower margin, but that’s not a bad thing. It’s simply a choice the game offers to its players. Do you like to be challenged? Then go raid. Do you not like it? Then don’t. Simple as that.

You also imply the new fractals have raid-like margins, which is only true for their Challenge Mode. Which is kind of suggested by the name, right? And it offers exactly the same choice, right?

Last, but not least, raids do not “replace” any content. You might argue dungeons got abandoned, but they got abandoned before raids were released and their own difficulty overlaps with that of the fractals. So the game didn’t actually lose any difficulty tiers, it only gained an additional one.

Feanor.2358:

Makai.3429:

The key difference is how they’re replacing old content with mechanics that punish you for not being flawless. If you don’t like the new Fractal-Raids or Raids, then your only option for group content is dungeons, which aren’t exactly popular these days.

Every content punishes you for not being flawless, that’s what games do. The only difference is the actual margin of error you get. Raids do have lower margin, but that’s not a bad thing. It’s simply a choice the game offers to its players. Do you like to be challenged? Then go raid. Do you not like it? Then don’t. Simple as that.

You also imply the new fractals have raid-like margins, which is only true for their Challenge Mode. Which is kind of suggested by the name, right? And it offers exactly the same choice, right?

Last, but not least, raids do not “replace” any content. You might argue dungeons got abandoned, but they got abandoned before raids were released and their own difficulty overlaps with that of the fractals. So the game didn’t actually lose any difficulty tiers, it only gained an additional one.

I don’t mind a good challenge (I’ve completed Hotline Miami and its sequel and unlocked all achievements on both), but GW2’s version of challenge is just bad: OHKOs if your foot is off by a pixel, and God help you if your finger slips once or if you can’t see what’s going on since visual noise = challenge. Two gods help you if you’re colorblind, since Anet won’t do a thing to make your experience better.

Blatant exaggerations don’t make your point any more valid.

Feanor.2358:

Blatant exaggerations don’t make your point any more valid.

We’ve had these conversations before. You just can’t seem to understand where I’m coming from.

Feanor.2358:

Every content punishes you for not being flawless, that’s what games do. The only difference is the actual margin of error you get. Raids do have lower margin, but that’s not a bad thing.

Actually this isn’t true for all players in a Raid. There is only a limited number of players in a Raid encounter that must be flawless in order for the team to succeed, the others don’t have such a hard job to do.

I will give you an example, Sabetha. At the Sabetha fight you need 2 people to go up to the cannons and 1 kiter. That’s basically it, the other 7 people need to only concern themselves about the flamewall and doing their rotations correctly. You’d probably need a 4th person with a tag or icon to show the rest where to stack so it’s easier for the kiter to get the bombs but it’s not essential.

Perhaps this is the key in making Raids more accessible. Once the group fills the essential slots of a Raid, they could fill the rest without any harsh requirements. Stack on tag, do your rotation, circle strafe during flame wall, is all the rest need to do at Sabetha, and occasionally go kick a bomb. Not really a higher difficulty than most dungeons or fractals.

The same principle applies to most Raid bosses, with the exception of those with Fixation mechanics (Slothasor and Keep Construct), or random party-wipe area of effects (Matthias and Slothasor), where everyone must be flawless in order to succeed.

maddoctor.2738:

Feanor.2358:

Every content punishes you for not being flawless, that’s what games do. The only difference is the actual margin of error you get. Raids do have lower margin, but that’s not a bad thing.

Actually this isn’t true for all players in a Raid. There is only a limited number of players in a Raid encounter that must be flawless in order for the team to succeed, the others don’t have such a hard job to do.

You seem to misunderstand me. Nobody really has to be flawless, even in raids. There is always a tolerance toward mistakes. Sometimes greater (like in the open world), sometimes smaller (like in fractal cms or raids). But that’s how games work – they present you challenges, they punish you if you fail them and they reward you if you beat them.

maddoctor.2738:

Perhaps this is the key in making Raids more accessible. Once the group fills the essential slots of a Raid, they could fill the rest without any harsh requirements. Stack on tag, do your rotation, circle strafe during flame wall, is all the rest need to do at Sabetha, and occasionally go kick a bomb. Not really a higher difficulty than most dungeons or fractals.

The problem is, every player you pug is a risk. Sure, it’s not that hard. But you still don’t know if they aren’t going to do something stupid. Miss a bomb throw on Sab, get interrupted 24/7 on Gorse and end up with abysmal dps or whatnot. I don’t encourage high requirements for raiding (my group leader doesn’t use any aside from class/role requirement when we pug to fill the group), but I understand why people who raid pugging resort to them. It’s just an attempt to reduce that risk.

To answer your direct question to me stihl. I had purchased the tier 3 ultimate edition each release which is 100 or so dollars each time. Gem purchases were regular for a little bit until everything dungeons became a corner stack fest with people getting booted out of groups for playing necro at which point I didn’t want to be associated with the game anymore.

When heart of thorns was announced it was perceived that the cheese meta was to be eliminated via more complex ai and a less emphasis on zerker nuking content so I had purchased the ultimate edition for that reason. For a time in raids at least in the beginning people were using all sorts of different builds rather than the high meta builds which is what I wanted to see, hell world first featured a condition scrapper from what I remember. For a time pwiw ideology existed, play what was desired but play it well.

I do not think of myself in the way you described, allow me to clarify. I am a big advocate of luminosity, I believe games should be more educational and should test the brain, not do the opposite which is why I stay away from most phone games. Our children who will be our future are not taught the values of working for a reward, many just want it now with no commitment. This message needs to change, games can be a part of that message. A few years ago a person put on their job application that they play world of Warcraft and landed a high level management position. I want to be able to do that same for guildwars 2. I want to be proud of the fact that I play this game and be able to tell other people in real life that I play this game. This is why challenging content must exist.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

To answer your direct question to me stihl. I had purchased the tier 3 ultimate edition each release which is 100 or so dollars each time. Gem purchases were regular for a little bit until everything dungeons became a corner stack fest with people getting booted out of groups for playing necro at which point I didn’t want to be associated with the game anymore.

When heart of thorns was announced it was perceived that the cheese meta was to be eliminated via more complex ai and a less emphasis on zerker nuking content so I had purchased the ultimate edition for that reason. For a time in raids at least in the beginning people were using all sorts of different builds rather than the high meta builds which is what I wanted to see, hell world first featured a condition scrapper from what I remember. For a time pwiw ideology existed, play what was desired but play it well.

I do not think of myself in the way you described, allow me to clarify. I am a big advocate of luminosity, I believe games should be more educational and should test the brain, not do the opposite which is why I stay away from most phone games. Our children who will be our future are not taught the values of working for a reward, many just want it now with no commitment. This message needs to change, games can be a part of that message. A few years ago a person put on their job application that they play world of Warcraft and landed a high level management position. I want to be able to do that same for guildwars 2. I want to be proud of the fact that I play this game and be able to tell other people in real life that I play this game. This is why challenging content must exist.

Nahh man. Whatever myth you heard about playing WoW being a doorway to opportunity is just that.. a myth. You have just as much a chance to be turned away by the hiring manager because you play an opposing faction as you do for playing WoW to get you hired.

Truth is, No one ever is going to say “Wow, you play a really challenging life absorbing video game that takes up all your free time you must know your kitten”

No one says that, not even computer game companies say that.

Sorry to bust your bubble, but the Reality is, (according to Forbes) games that are known to be very involved/addicting like WoW, actually work against you to put on your resume, as most of the time, companies will assume that you will be thinking about the game while at work.. a major No No. if you are applying for anything that requires you to be mentally on your toes.

Also.. as it stands, since you did not in fact increase you spending because Raids brought you joy and a feeling of accomplishment, to match the loss from my leaving because I felt pushed aside, just between the two us, Anet lost money.

Being good at video games does not equate to being good at life or being qualified for a professional position of any kind.

Video games are pastimes – hobbies that we enjoy in our time off. Playing GW2 (or any other MMO) is not your career nor does it prepare you for anything truly meaningful in life.

That said, it isn’t a bad thing either. It does bring people together – creating new friendships and building new online communities. The problem with raids – the way they are in GW2 – is that they reinforce the idea that those friendships have to be based on how well other people focus on and master a particular aspect of the game. Some of us (not all) find that limiting and obstructive to how we like to bring people together.

But, if that “elite of the elite” group is what you are looking for from the game, that is fine. There really is nothing wrong with that. The issue is, a lot of different kinds of people play the game – and some of us actually see limited scope raid experiences like the ones offered here as antithetical to the community building experience we want from GW2.

But it is a matter of perspective – dependent upon why you enjoy games like this to begin with.

And, to repeat and emphasize – mastering a video game isn’t an indication of how hard you work or how successful you will be in an actual professional career. Trying to make that correlation is a little absurd.

one of the most viewed threads in this forum outside of stickies at roughly 5k rn.
and I think out of the 200+ posts maybe six or so are on topic.
and that’s being generous.

people are right. the forums aren’t even on this plane of existence.

Your thread was infected with a circular discussion.
I wonder how many people read the OP post or the thread title.