Guild Wars 2

aaaand a new page bug fix

Astralporing.1957:

TexZero.7910:

I could just as easily turn this around on you. So here it goes. Where did the devs lock you out of raids.

They didn’t, but he has a point. Open world is a content meant for everyone. Raids, by design and stated devs intention, aren’t.
Besides, anyone that can do raids will do fine in open world. The opposite is obviously not true.
So, it’s not that one side gets 4 maps, and another gets a raid. No. Raiders get the maps as well… in addition to raids.

TexZero.7910:

Astralporing.1957:

10 other people is not “the whole gaming community”.

No, it’s not and you’re correct. However what you want to do to raiding would subdivide the existing raid community between that of the Adults and the Kiddie Pool.

No, the divide already exists and got created by introducing raids. All my suggestions might do is shift a bit the point where the divide lies.

By the way, i find it funny that you go out of your way to disparage the people that might want to play the easy mode, and yet at the same time are so afraid that these very same people might no longer want to play with you. If you think so poorly about those “kiddies” as you name them, why would you care if they’ll end up separated from the “real raiders”?

Hmm…Let’s just look at the design intent of raids. Challenging, but flexible group content. Pretty sure that’s not exclusionary. The sheer fact that you guys can complain about successful pug groups not accepting you due to your own personal choices is a testament to this. You adamantly refuse to recognize the group part of the group content and as such put all the blame on the “Challenging” part instead, when in reality raids are no more challenging than Fractals, Dungeons or even World Bosses.

If you would like to not put words in my mouth, i never once said that these people are kiddies. What i said is you’re idea creates another divide.

What’s worse is not only do you wish to create another divide instead of learning with the entire community, you also want the lesser version of the content to come with the exact same rewards.

I’ve said my pieces on that several times and it wont change, neither will yours so lets just leave it at that.

TexZero.7910:

Hmm…Let’s just look at the design intent of raids. Challenging, but flexible group content. Pretty sure that’s not exclusionary.

No, that isn’t. It’s the fact that they were meant to be a content most players won’t be able to finish. A challenging content for the experienced veterans. A content, that, by design, not anyone would be able to finish.
A content that by design was aimed at only small part of the game population.

TexZero.7910:

The sheer fact that you guys can complain about successful pug groups not accepting you due to your own personal choices is a testament to this.

I personally don’t complain about that, so please do not generalize.

TexZero.7910:

You adamantly refuse to recognize the group part of the group content and as such put all the blame on the “Challenging” part instead, when in reality raids are no more challenging than Fractals, Dungeons or even World Bosses.

That’s an interesting claim. So, please, do explain why raiders even wanted raids in the first place, if they already had that level of challenge elsewhere?

TexZero.7910:

If you would like to not put words in my mouth, i never once said that these people are kiddies.

Well, you did try to differentiate the content into “adult” and “kiddie pool” (your names, not mine) which really shows your contempt for the people wanting to play the latter. And yet at the same time you say that having those people split off from the raiders (assuming they aren’t split off already) would be some sort of a major disaster.

TexZero.7910:

What i said is you’re idea creates another divide.

And i say that it doesn’t, it just shifts the point at which the divide already exists.

TexZero.7910:

What’s worse is not only do you wish to create another divide instead of learning with the entire community, you also want the lesser version of the content to come with the exact same rewards.

Worse for you, maybe. For the game? That’s debatable.

Here’s there design objectives.

Im not going to say the results aren’t different than the finished product. But nowhere in there do they say. Yeah, we dont want Joe, Sam and Mary to raid.

https://youtu.be/veJMHxgUGxM?t=711

Have a nice day.

Why not put in different raid difficulties so everyone can enjoy it?

Astralporing.1957:

Open world is a content meant for everyone.

Well even the open world has some limits and it’s not for everyone as all the Heart of Thorns-hate posts clearly show.

I’d make a question though, would you rather the open world is split in difficulty and has parts that are for everyone and parts that are NOT for everyone, or keep the open world for everyone and let instanced content be not for everyone? Which one is better?

Astralporing.1957:

TexZero.7910:

I could just as easily turn this around on you. So here it goes. Where did the devs lock you out of raids.

They didn’t, but he has a point. Open world is a content meant for everyone. Raids, by design and stated devs intention, aren’t.
Besides, anyone that can do raids will do fine in open world. The opposite is obviously not true.
So, it’s not that one side gets 4 maps, and another gets a raid. No. Raiders get the maps as well… in addition to raids.

So do PvP-ers. So do WvW-ers. And – surprise, surprise – many of them don’t bother with open world. So in effect open world isn’t meant for everyone. It’s the closest thing to “meant for everyone” the game has to offer, but nevertheless your argument is flawed. The game is full of targeted content. And this is only normal. It needs to be. Or it couldn’t keep its players in. Open world is only good for keeping casual players and casual players do not tend to stick around for long. Sure, there will be exceptions. But they won’t be enough to keep the game alive.

Substatic.6958:

Why not put in different raid difficulties so everyone can enjoy it?

This is like asking “why not put in story-mode PvP so everyone can enjoy it”? Because the enjoyable part of raiding is the challenge. They are designed like that. Take that away and they lose all meaning and purpose. Nobody will enjoy that.

Feanor.2358:

Because the enjoyable part of raiding is the challenge. They are designed like that. Take that away and they lose all meaning and purpose. Nobody will enjoy that.

Plot twist: many of the players running raids now do not really enjoy them, and many are not there for the challenge.
Conversely, i’m sure that there would be players that would enjoy raids with lowered challenge level. I know i would.

I know you think you would. But you really wouldn’t. And, plot twist, the ones still raiding do enjoy them. We’re not there for the rewards. I have a full set of armor and 300+ LI more in bank I have no current plan using. And I’m still doing full clears every week.

Astralporing.1957:

Plot twist: many of the players running raids now do not really enjoy them, and many are not there for the challenge.

Why on earth would they do that?
Playing a game or a specific mode and not enjoying it? I would definitely quit that at least the game mode.

Vinceman.4572:

Astralporing.1957:

Plot twist: many of the players running raids now do not really enjoy them, and many are not there for the challenge.

Why on earth would they do that?

Two reasons. First is obviously the legendary armor. Second is wanting to play with your friends, if too many of them happen to be raiding. I personally know a number of people that play for one of those reasons (or both) and do not actually enjoy the challenge at all.

(i also know a few people that do not enjoy the difficulty, but do enjoy the feeling of belonging to an exclusive club of “better players”)

So yeah, some players are in this because they find the challenge fun, but there are also many other reasons why people might be raiding.

In my case, for example, i enjoy playing with friends. I’m also a completionist, and the legendary armor is also a nice bonus. On the other hand, i find raiding to be extremely stressful, which saps most of my enjoyment from the previous points. No, difficulty is not fun for me at all, and i’d definitely feel better and enjoy the game more if it was lowered a bit.

Astralporing.1957:

Two reasons. First is obviously the legendary armor. Second is wanting to play with your friends, if too many of them happen to be raiding. I personally know a number of people that play for one of those reasons (or both) and do not actually enjoy the challenge at all.

That’s called anecdotal evidence. And here’s mine: I know people who wanted the legendary armor but didn’t enjoy raids, who tried to raid and quit. Some of them my friends, who still like to play with me (for instance we regularly play new story episodes together). Meaning both your reasons aren’t universal and don’t apply to everyone.

Astralporing.1957:

(i also know a few people that do not enjoy the difficulty, but do enjoy the feeling of belonging to an exclusive club of “better players”)

So yeah, some players are in this because they find the challenge fun, but there are also many other reasons why people might be raiding.

Not in the long run. In the long run if you don’t enjoy some content you simply stop playing it.

Astralporing.1957:

In my case, for example, i enjoy playing with friends. I’m also a completionist, and the legendary armor is also a nice bonus. On the other hand, i find raiding to be extremely stressful, which saps most of my enjoyment from the previous points. No, difficulty is not fun for me at all, and i’d definitely feel better and enjoy the game more if it was lowered a bit.

So you a) want ALL rewards in the game and b) want them to not require any effort. Sorry, I prefer otherwise. And not because of some elitism. There are rewards in the game that I know I will never acquire. Like The Ascension or the Mistforged Triumphant armor. I want them to stay like they are, too. Because a) the game needs to have proper long-term goals which require actual effort and b) it needs to reward them accordingly. Rewarding with power makes them mandatory/compulsive, rewarding them with skins doesn’t. Rewarding with skins only works as long as the skins are exclusive. You wan’t easy legendary armor? Go grind PvP.

Astralporing.1957:

Two reasons. First is obviously the legendary armor. Second is wanting to play with your friends, if too many of them happen to be raiding. I personally know a number of people that play for one of those reasons (or both) and do not actually enjoy the challenge at all.

(i also know a few people that do not enjoy the difficulty, but do enjoy the feeling of belonging to an exclusive club of “better players”)

So yeah, some players are in this because they find the challenge fun, but there are also many other reasons why people might be raiding.

In my case, for example, i enjoy playing with friends. I’m also a completionist, and the legendary armor is also a nice bonus. On the other hand, i find raiding to be extremely stressful, which saps most of my enjoyment from the previous points. No, difficulty is not fun for me at all, and i’d definitely feel better and enjoy the game more if it was lowered a bit.

Well, then I don’t have anything to reply here except that I’m beyond that with my age.

First, if you play a game in your leisure time and you play stuff in there you don’t like or which stresses you, you are acting irrational. There’s no absolute need of anything in this game. I could accept effort, a little bit of stress and the will to do annoying things to ensure the wealth of your family or own property. But for a game? Seriously, that doesn’t sound healthy.
Secondly, it’s highly doubtful that friends are raiding the whole week since even the average player can clear all wings in 1 evening after a couple of successful boss kills, maybe a 2nd day for bosses that have failed the other day. Again, sounds not very rational rather not reliable.

Astralporing.1957:

Plot twist: many of the players running raids now do not really enjoy them, and many are not there for the challenge.
Conversely, i’m sure that there would be players that would enjoy raids with lowered challenge level. I know i would.

All of this can be easily twisted and applied to open world too.
Many of the players you cross while playing in open world do not really like the content itself and are just there driven by their completionist side, and some of them would enjoy it a lot more if it was harder.

So no, open world is not content MEANT for everyone.
It’s far more accesible than raids in the sense that it can arguably be played by everyone. There you have a point. It’s also true that it represents the majority of the content we have.

Should developers have focused exclusively on easy accesible content? I don’t know. As you said, it’s debatable. You’re going to lose some people no matter what you do, so trying to achieve a healthy mix doesn’t look like a terrible approach either.

TexZero.7910:

[…]create your own raid group[…]

I came back because this needs to be talked about right now before anyone makes the same mistake as me.

DO NOT. I REPEAT, DO NOT make your own group.

You will be taking on a massive amount of responsibility, like it or not, you will be thrust into an authority and leadership role and if you’re not looked up to as an authority then nobody will listen to you and the group will fail.

You will be forced to disband and recreate, recruit, and deal with irrational people insulting, questioning and ignoring you. Players growing complacent or lazy and not doing research, leading to wipes and sloppy kills. Unless you crush out this sort of behavior swiftly and cleanly; but few people have it in them to be so surgical all of the time, then your group will stagnate and fall apart.

You will deal with so much crap both in the forming and maintaining of a static.
I’ve both personally experienced, and witnessed groups fall apart because the leader vanished, wasn’t taking the job seriously, or was too lenient.

As my dear friend told me multiple times before during and after my group fell to crap due to my inability and unwillingness to manage it…

“Do not start your own group unless you GENUINELY want to be a raid leader, and you enjoy the responsibility that comes with it.”

Then there’s the fact that the entire group has to get along and play well together. Once cliques start forming its up to you to make sure they stop that. The entire group needs to be one happy family or new people will be put off and eventually (once cliques leave, and believe me, entire groups will leave together if you let any form) you’ll be left with nothing.

It will ruin the game for you if you do not want to do any of these things.
Or at the very least you’ll end up not wanting to do raids anymore and come complain on the forums about the awful community (heh)

Murdock.6547:

DO NOT. I REPEAT, DO NOT make your own group.

So you’d rather some random stranger creates the group. If everyone was thinking like that then we wouldn’t have any groups to begin with.

TexZero.7910

I could just as easily turn this around on you. So here it goes. Where did the devs lock you out of raids. I personally don’t see a sign on any portal saying anyone whose account is named Cristalyan.5728 isn’t permitted in. Raiding, like any other part of the game is a choice, an optional side portion of content you either choose to partake in or choose to isolate yourself from. Blaming the community at large for what is ultimately your decision is foolish.

:-)) I don’t think the developers really knows that Cristalyan is playing their game to stop me with a dedicated sign to play something. But I know that the developers stated that the raid is designed in such a way that most of the players won’t be able to complete it successfully. You know what most of the players means? That means that the raid is designed to be completed by only few players. That I belong to one side or to another is not important. What is important is that the developers denied the possibility to play and complete a certain part of the game to most of the players.

And no, when I bought the game I bought it as a whole, with the intention to play it as a whole and not only some portions of it. This was my intention. Unfortunately, the developers made HoT in such a way that most of the players cannot enjoy a “portion” of the game.

In conclusion – I don’t blame the community. The community cannot stop me to play what I want to play in this game. Also, the decision to not play the raids is not mine. This decision belongs to the developers who designed the raids in a way that only a few of the players can complete it.

Even if I completed the raid I don’t consider myself to be a raider. Why? Because accepting the bait with “the raid is only for a few chosen” you risk your freedom to have an option. If you consider yourself one of the Chosen, you will defend any ANet action regarding the raids – even if the action is against the community. Aaaah :-)) And by accepting that you are one of the Chosen, you automatically excluded yourself from the community :-)).

I think I will regularly raid when the developers will apologies for the statements regarding the exclusion promoted by the raids, admitting their mistake.
I always considered myself as a part of the GW2 Community. But is clear that the raids are not for the Community. The raids are for the Chosen.

If more and more parts of the game will be reserved for only a few players I think I will respect this also and I will stop playing GW2. As per the developers intention, I guess.

Murdock.6547:

TexZero.7910:

[…]create your own raid group[…]

I came back because this needs to be talked about right now before anyone makes the same mistake as me.

DO NOT. I REPEAT, DO NOT make your own group.

You will be taking on a massive amount of responsibility, like it or not, you will be thrust into an authority and leadership role and if you’re not looked up to as an authority then nobody will listen to you and the group will fail.

You will be forced to disband and recreate, recruit, and deal with irrational people insulting, questioning and ignoring you. Players growing complacent or lazy and not doing research, leading to wipes and sloppy kills. Unless you crush out this sort of behavior swiftly and cleanly; but few people have it in them to be so surgical all of the time, then your group will stagnate and fall apart.

You will deal with so much crap both in the forming and maintaining of a static.
I’ve both personally experienced, and witnessed groups fall apart because the leader vanished, wasn’t taking the job seriously, or was too lenient.

As my dear friend told me multiple times before during and after my group fell to crap due to my inability and unwillingness to manage it…

“Do not start your own group unless you GENUINELY want to be a raid leader, and you enjoy the responsibility that comes with it.”

Then there’s the fact that the entire group has to get along and play well together. Once cliques start forming its up to you to make sure they stop that. The entire group needs to be one happy family or new people will be put off and eventually (once cliques leave, and believe me, entire groups will leave together if you let any form) you’ll be left with nothing.

It will ruin the game for you if you do not want to do any of these things.
Or at the very least you’ll end up not wanting to do raids anymore and come complain on the forums about the awful community (heh)

Seems to me that you just haven’t been good at things you were trying to achieve. Of course, not everybody is born to be a good commander and most likely you are not.
But on the other hand it is not very hard to have a solid lead and human beings are always able to learn and improve – same applies for leading a squad.

Cristalyan.5728:

In conclusion – I don’t blame the community. The community cannot stop me to play what I want to play in this game. Also, the decision to not play the raids is not mine. This decision belongs to the developers who designed the raids in a way that only a few of the players can complete it.

The decision is yours though? The devs have decided to make raids hard (relatively hard) which means it demands dedication, time and practice. They didn’t decide to that certain people cant play raids, they decided to make raids challenging knowing some people would choose not to invest that commitment. The only person who decides whether or not a player raids is the player itself.

Your argument is “If you want to join the army, you need to lose 10 kilos and improve your fitness.” T which you reply “By asking me to be fit and in good shape, the army has decided i can never be a soldier”.

No. The army has set standars which you choose not to meet.

Cristalyan.5728:

:-)) I don’t think the developers really knows that Cristalyan is playing their game to stop me with a dedicated sign to play something. But I know that the developers stated that the raid is designed in such a way that most of the players won’t be able to complete it successfully. You know what most of the players means? That means that the raid is designed to be completed by only few players. That I belong to one side or to another is not important. What is important is that the developers denied the possibility to play and complete a certain part of the game to most of the players.

And no, when I bought the game I bought it as a whole, with the intention to play it as a whole and not only some portions of it. This was my intention. Unfortunately, the developers made HoT in such a way that most of the players cannot enjoy a “portion” of the game.

In conclusion – I don’t blame the community. The community cannot stop me to play what I want to play in this game. Also, the decision to not play the raids is not mine. This decision belongs to the developers who designed the raids in a way that only a few of the players can complete it.

Even if I completed the raid I don’t consider myself to be a raider. Why? Because accepting the bait with “the raid is only for a few chosen” you risk your freedom to have an option. If you consider yourself one of the Chosen, you will defend any ANet action regarding the raids – even if the action is against the community. Aaaah :-)) And by accepting that you are one of the Chosen, you automatically excluded yourself from the community :-)).

I think I will regularly raid when the developers will apologies for the statements regarding the exclusion promoted by the raids, admitting their mistake.
I always considered myself as a part of the GW2 Community. But is clear that the raids are not for the Community. The raids are for the Chosen.

If more and more parts of the game will be reserved for only a few players I think I will respect this also and I will stop playing GW2. As per the developers intention, I guess.

Well, if the design have been good from the start, you wouldn’t be able to complete explorable paths in dungeons as you were able after some months after release and today. Dungeons were thought to be the challenging content in this game and luckily for you everyone can participate in them but actually that wasn’t intended.

Feanor.2358:

Astralporing.1957:

Two reasons. First is obviously the legendary armor. Second is wanting to play with your friends, if too many of them happen to be raiding. I personally know a number of people that play for one of those reasons (or both) and do not actually enjoy the challenge at all.

That’s called anecdotal evidence. And here’s mine: I know people who wanted the legendary armor but didn’t enjoy raids, who tried to raid and quit. Some of them my friends, who still like to play with me (for instance we regularly play new story episodes together). Meaning both your reasons aren’t universal and don’t apply to everyone.

Of course they aren’t. Neither are yours. As i said, there are many reasons why people might want to run raids, and not all of them have anything to do with difficulty.

Feanor.2358:

Astralporing.1957:

(i also know a few people that do not enjoy the difficulty, but do enjoy the feeling of belonging to an exclusive club of “better players”)

So yeah, some players are in this because they find the challenge fun, but there are also many other reasons why people might be raiding.

Not in the long run. In the long run if you don’t enjoy some content you simply stop playing it.

Yes, and? Some stop, some start. Some stop earlier, others last more. For some the reasons can change partway. And yet the multitude of reasons (which are not necessarily tied to difficulty) remain.

Astralporing.1957:

You wan’t easy legendary armor? Go grind PvP.

Nah, already have the raid one.

There really is no legitimate argument against raids. It’s an extremely small part of the overall game content. There are several game modes in gw2 from pvp to wvw to PVE that appeal to different groups of players. Raiding is just another game mode that certain players enjoy. A lot of players wanted more challenging end game content and raids were an answer to that.

No players are under any obligation or requirement to raid. There is almost no piece of equipment or meta achievement that requires one to raid. The perks to raiding are almost exclusively for raiding.

Any player in the game can raid. The idea that raiding is limited to a small group of elite players is false. Anyone can start a raid group. My current group is composed almost entirely of players that had NO raid experience just a few months ago.

What is required to raid is simply persistence, patience, and the ability to delay gratification. Too many people simply expect to show up and immediately have access to successful and experienced groups. They expect to jump on lfg and within about 15 seconds have a group that will carry through the raid.

That’s not how it works. It’s not that hard to raid. The difficulty is incredibly overstated, but it does require a little effort and organization in your part. Guild wars is an MMO so you will need to find players to raid with. Not that hard. You may have to start with other beginner players but you will improve. I did. You just can’t expect to beat s raid the first time you try.

Challenging content is supposed to be challenging. If you don’t like to test yourself or prefer to button mash without thinking, it may not be an activity for you. But there is plenty of other parts of the game for players. Why do people feel entitled that s hand must cater to exclusively their needs and their needs alone?

Solstace.2514:

snip

This honestly looks like a copy and paste.

Feanor.2358:

Blaeys.3102:

Designing game content that is first and foremost fun for as many players as possible – that sounds like something we should be saying to devs a lot more often.

The thing is, the game needs harder content to cater for the tastes of different people. Targeting just one auditory won’t cut it. Hence the progressively harder content, from open world through various instanced content, to raids. If you’re looking to ‘much about’ harder content, you’re obviously having wrong expectations. Yes, it is still there so that players have fun playing it. However, it’s a different kind of fun. It’s the fun of being challenged and overcoming it. Which does happen, when your party all has the same mindset. Just think of the mindset needed for any content of the game. And if it doesn’t fit yours, don’t play it. Simple as that. The game is huge, there’ll always be plenty of content for you to have fun with it. That’s the beauty of it being diverse.

Raids aren’t actually significantly more challenging content though. The only major difference for an individual as opposed to soloing most dungeon bosses is that they have less to think about, you randomly get punished for other people’s mistakes, and if it fails, instead of waypointing and going back for another try, you deal with drama as various people quit/demand people be kicked.

Raids aren’t challenging content, as for the majority of the bosses, there’s only so much you can do yourself. It’s only difficult in the sense that it’s difficult to find a group to figure out the encounter in the first place, and then keep it around long enough that people figure out what to do. (As opposed to what I’ve typically seen in a rotating door of people leaving/getting kicked that ensures a steady stream of people that need to learn it.)

Depends how high is your personal bar for challenge. Not many people can solo a dungeon boss. Primarily because they won’t have the required patience and dedication to fail over and over again on it until they figure it out.

They need to curb this stone age old meta.
“Play your way” is what makes GW2 epic, but in raids it’s “play chronobunker, druid and ps warr, plus some other guys in dps spots” since the dawn of time.

This is disgusting. I want GW2 where I pick a profession and i can reliably do at least 2 outta 3 roles (support, tank, dps) as long as I’m using a proper build and know what i’m doing with it.

The 3 “gods” are long overdue for nerf bringing down to everyone else’s level.

Why is PS warr getting 600 range on his mights, when almost everyone else has 240?

Why is chrono having strongest upkeep of party quickness AND alacrity AND distortion? Others struggle to be even semi-decent with one of these!

Why is druid given completely unique powerful damage buffs, while everyone else has only might is replaced by ps warr again?

And if it’s cause “he’s got no damage himself!”, then fine! But make it so, that those who do have damage can be a viable replacement if only by grace of their damage.

I do look forward to PoF in this regard. I smell that this time around there will be great potential hidden in synergetic play between PoF specs. More deep and complex then simple “give me might”. We’ll see how it goes, i await it eagerly.

I think we ought to just leave well enough alone at this point, I mean, Raids might be this lovely little festering sore on what is mainly a pretty good community driven game, (for the most part), But really, what’s really the worst that can happen if we let things go the way they are currently going?

To use an analogy, Maybe letting the ship sail is the best course of action at this point.

Seriously, what’s really the worst that can happen?

I won’t agree with this approach – i want some major shakeups in raid meta. But in a-net’s defense, they did give us option for legendary armors from spvp and WvW, so thankfully we don’t have to deal with this Raid meta cancer anymore to get our armors:3

Feanor.2358:

Astralporing.1957:

TexZero.7910:

I could just as easily turn this around on you. So here it goes. Where did the devs lock you out of raids.

They didn’t, but he has a point. Open world is a content meant for everyone. Raids, by design and stated devs intention, aren’t.
Besides, anyone that can do raids will do fine in open world. The opposite is obviously not true.
So, it’s not that one side gets 4 maps, and another gets a raid. No. Raiders get the maps as well… in addition to raids.

So do PvP-ers. So do WvW-ers. And – surprise, surprise – many of them don’t bother with open world. So in effect open world isn’t meant for everyone. It’s the closest thing to “meant for everyone” the game has to offer, but nevertheless your argument is flawed. The game is full of targeted content. And this is only normal. It needs to be. Or it couldn’t keep its players in. Open world is only good for keeping casual players and casual players do not tend to stick around for long. Sure, there will be exceptions. But they won’t be enough to keep the game alive.

Substatic.6958:

Why not put in different raid difficulties so everyone can enjoy it?

This is like asking “why not put in story-mode PvP so everyone can enjoy it”? Because the enjoyable part of raiding is the challenge. They are designed like that. Take that away and they lose all meaning and purpose. Nobody will enjoy that.

WoW has raid difficulty and it is extremely successful and fun. They range from easier to GW2 raids, similar to GW2 raids, slightly harder, to extremely harder. It lets everyone enjoy raids. The difficulties have different rewards.

As a result you see 60+ groups in LFG at any one given moment (all raids), asking for any class. In GW2 you maybe see 2 or 3, all asking for the same 2 classes.

It’s good for casuals and hardcore players. It’s good for “bad” raid classes and specs. Casuals get to learn and experience the raid, and use more specs. Hardcore get a the option of playing harder Raids than what is currently available (which is frankly easy compared to other MMOs, which is why I’m confused by your elitism, btw). They all get what they want.

Another result of raid difficulties is participation is exponentially increased (as proven by WoW’s huge sample size once difficulties were released). Were is the issue? There is literally zero down sides.

I play GW2 for one reason – to have fun with my friends in my guild. That is why I chose to create a guild when the game came out and why I almost never pug anything.

Raids have been a two sided blade among my friends and my guild. On the one side, I have a group I raid with every week. While they aren’t the most skilled at the content, we are downing bosses.

On the other side, I have a lot more friends that, while they would like to do the content, they are turned off by the ridiculously lopsided experience based on meta vs non-meta or simply just don’t like how most of the encounters are tuned.

Different people play the game for different reasons. While some find raids a positive addition, I believe many more find them toxic and overly restrictive. A story mote version, using the same tech they use to implement challenge motes, would likely solve this issue – allowing them to develop really difficult raid encounters without boxing the content off from the more casual players – something that Anet obviously cared more about in the early days of the game.

It would give more people more ways to have fun as a team – which should be the whole point.

Blaeys.3102:

A story mote version, using the same tech they use to implement challenge motes, would likely solve this issue – allowing them to develop really difficult raid encounters without boxing the content off from the more casual players – something that Anet obviously cared more about in the early days of the game.

It would give more people more ways to have fun as a team – which should be the whole point.

Without specifying the difficulty you are looking for, you already have this in the game (at least wing 4, lets be real they will never go back and add story mote to older wings)

Its called normal mode…challenge mote is the problem because it is not repeatable? If the challenge mote was the repeatable “normal” mode but then the “story mote” was the current difficulty, would this solve the problem? Absolutely not. It would just mean one more button click when you enter the instance. Not only are you looking for a story version, but a story version that is easier than the current difficulty.

Its been 18 months…we should be long past the point of “we can/cannot have an easier version of raids in gw2”. It can definitely happen. The question is what resources is the community, or more importantly ANET willing to give up to dedicate the time/tech to be able to do so? Want easy mode raids? Do you want it if PoF only has 2 maps instead of 5? These are the questions to think about…not the blanket statement yes/no answers.

To all of the folks who think that raids changed the direction of the game for the worse…maybe some parts of the content did. But nobody seems to want to acknowledge that the game and ANET greatly benefit from being able to make more challenging content.

It widens the door for types of encounters they can design, allows them to implement new tech/mechanics that they can use elsewhere to benefit the game, it gives players a reason to improve which allows ANET to make more content/$$$, etc.

Remember all of the amazing reddit posts about how the checkpoint system in Siren’s JP with the special action key? Where did the tech for the special action key come from? Oh ya…raids. Just one small example of the types of indirect benefits that come from having to design more challenging content. Who knows, maybe if Sabetha didn’t require a green bomb to throw, we never would have had the special action key in the first place.

ButterPeanut.9746:

Blaeys.3102:

A story mote version, using the same tech they use to implement challenge motes, would likely solve this issue – allowing them to develop really difficult raid encounters without boxing the content off from the more casual players – something that Anet obviously cared more about in the early days of the game.

It would give more people more ways to have fun as a team – which should be the whole point.

Without specifying the difficulty you are looking for, you already have this in the game (at least wing 4, lets be real they will never go back and add story mote to older wings)

Its called normal mode…challenge mote is the problem because it is not repeatable? If the challenge mote was the repeatable “normal” mode but then the “story mote” was the current difficulty, would this solve the problem? Absolutely not. It would just mean one more button click when you enter the instance. Not only are you looking for a story version, but a story version that is easier than the current difficulty.

Its been 18 months…we should be long past the point of “we can/cannot have an easier version of raids in gw2”. It can definitely happen. The question is what resources is the community, or more importantly ANET willing to give up to dedicate the time/tech to be able to do so? Want easy mode raids? Do you want it if PoF only has 2 maps instead of 5? These are the questions to think about…not the blanket statement yes/no answers.

To all of the folks who think that raids changed the direction of the game for the worse…maybe some parts of the content did. But nobody seems to want to acknowledge that the game and ANET greatly benefit from being able to make more challenging content.

It widens the door for types of encounters they can design, allows them to implement new tech/mechanics that they can use elsewhere to benefit the game, it gives players a reason to improve which allows ANET to make more content/$$$, etc.

Remember all of the amazing reddit posts about how the checkpoint system in Siren’s JP with the special action key? Where did the tech for the special action key come from? Oh ya…raids. Just one small example of the types of indirect benefits that come from having to design more challenging content. Who knows, maybe if Sabetha didn’t require a green bomb to throw, we never would have had the special action key in the first place.

Changing health and damage values would be that resource intensive?

Also whatever they are doing with raids at the moment isn’t working. The raid scene in gw2 is practically dead compared to the other top MMOs. I attribute this to the combination of no raid difficulties and some of the worst PVE balance I’ve seen in a long time for a video game. The lack of difficulties makes GW2’s more casual playerbase have a harder time to slowly get introduced into them. The extreme imbalance makes it hard for even good players to join a group that only want very very specific classes and specs from a relatively tiny pool of builds.

And the ironic point about needing these meta builds is, the gw2 raids are actually easy compared to other games. But the specs are so imba it doesn’t even matter.

Substatic.6958:

Also whatever they are doing with raids at the moment isn’t working.

According to who?
The devs said multiple times that they are happy with how the raids turned out, and called them a huge success. Also the said that the Raids far exceeded their expectations concerning how many players actually Raid in this game compared to what they expected.
They added a second Raid team in the mix, which means we’ll get more Raids. You don’t add a second team to a failure, you add it to a success so it expands and gets even better.

So exactly how do you figure that what they are doing with Raids isn’t working?

Substatic.6958:

Changing health and damage values would be that resource intensive?

How does changing health and damage account for the people who don’t raid because they don’t want to find 9 other people?

How does changing damage and health account for attacks that don’t do damage, but instead kill you instantly?

How does changing health and damage account for loot balance?

How does changing damage and health account for mechanics that require specific number of people to complete a mechanic?

It has never been a simple change of reducing boss health and damage, and it never will be.

ButterPeanut.9746:

Substatic.6958:

Changing health and damage values would be that resource intensive?

How does changing health and damage account for the people who don’t raid because they don’t want to find 9 other people?

Dropping the health of a Boss Mob allows for a single player to do enough damage to kill them in the allocated time frame.

How does changing damage and health account for attacks that don’t do damage, but instead kill you instantly?

It doesn’t, as such there would still need to be skill involved to win.

How does changing health and damage account for loot balance?

Since all loot is allocated to single players, there is no more loot given if 6 people do the raid, no less should be given if 1 person does it. So loot would remain unchanged.

How does changing damage and health account for mechanics that require specific number of people to complete a mechanic?

what mechanic is this?

It has never been a simple change of reducing boss health and damage, and it never will be.

Sure it could.

STIHL.2489:

ButterPeanut.9746:

Substatic.6958:

Changing health and damage values would be that resource intensive?

How does changing health and damage account for the people who don’t raid because they don’t want to find 9 other people?

Dropping the health of a Boss Mob allows for a single player to do enough damage to kill them in the allocated time frame.

How does changing damage and health account for attacks that don’t do damage, but instead kill you instantly?

It doesn’t, as such there would still need to be skill involved to win.

How does changing health and damage account for loot balance?

Since all loot is allocated to single players, there is no more loot given if 6 people do the raid, no less should be given if 1 person does it. So loot would remain unchanged.

How does changing damage and health account for mechanics that require specific number of people to complete a mechanic?

what mechanic is this?

It has never been a simple change of reducing boss health and damage, and it never will be.

Sure it could.

I think you are misunderstanding what my first post was about. It is not about making equal difficulty raids that require less people. It is about making raids that are significantly easier than the current implementation.

There have been numerous posts about how easy mode would need to remove the 1 shot mechanics like sabetha’s flamewall. If that were pursued, it is not a simple “reduce boss health” fix.

“Since all loot is allocated to single players, there is no more loot given if 6 people do the raid, no less should be given if 1 person does it. So loot would remain unchanged.”
- This isn’t an argument about equal difficulty low mans, its an argument about easier difficulty raids that may or may not have a lower number of people as the maximum. If an easier mode with 5 people is implemented, it is very obvious that looting needs to be adjusted versus the current 10man difficulty. In addition, do you allow players to get loot from both forms in the same week. These are the kind of questions that take time/resources that are not “drop boss health/damage”.

VG green circles require 4 people. KC green circles require 6 people. Sloth mushrooms require 4 people (unless you kill before you get to #4, which is obviously not the case for “easy mode”). Xera platforms require 3 people minimum. Deimos mechanics require at least 2 people to tank and kite hands. Sabetha bombs require at least 2 people. These are some examples of the mechanics that have hard requirements on the number of players in the group. Simply lowering the damage/health of KC will never allow a group of 5 players to beat the boss. There must be more changes to account for that…aka more dev time/resources.

Substatic.6958:

Why not put in different raid difficulties so everyone can enjoy it?

They did:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/scale-raid-bosses-from-easiest-to-hardest

ButterPeanut.9746:

STIHL.2489:

ButterPeanut.9746:

Substatic.6958:

Changing health and damage values would be that resource intensive?

How does changing health and damage account for the people who don’t raid because they don’t want to find 9 other people?

Dropping the health of a Boss Mob allows for a single player to do enough damage to kill them in the allocated time frame.

How does changing damage and health account for attacks that don’t do damage, but instead kill you instantly?

It doesn’t, as such there would still need to be skill involved to win.

How does changing health and damage account for loot balance?

Since all loot is allocated to single players, there is no more loot given if 6 people do the raid, no less should be given if 1 person does it. So loot would remain unchanged.

How does changing damage and health account for mechanics that require specific number of people to complete a mechanic?

what mechanic is this?

It has never been a simple change of reducing boss health and damage, and it never will be.

Sure it could.

I think you are misunderstanding what my first post was about. It is not about making equal difficulty raids that require less people. It is about making raids that are significantly easier than the current implementation.

I see what you are talking about now.

There have been numerous posts about how easy mode would need to remove the 1 shot mechanics like sabetha’s flamewall. If that were pursued, it is not a simple “reduce boss health” fix.

“Since all loot is allocated to single players, there is no more loot given if 6 people do the raid, no less should be given if 1 person does it. So loot would remain unchanged.”
- This isn’t an argument about equal difficulty low mans, its an argument about easier difficulty raids that may or may not have a lower number of people as the maximum. If an easier mode with 5 people is implemented, it is very obvious that looting needs to be adjusted versus the current 10man difficulty. In addition, do you allow players to get loot from both forms in the same week. These are the kind of questions that take time/resources that are not “drop boss health/damage”.

VG green circles require 4 people. KC green circles require 6 people. Sloth mushrooms require 4 people (unless you kill before you get to #4, which is obviously not the case for “easy mode”). Xera platforms require 3 people minimum. Deimos mechanics require at least 2 people to tank and kite hands. Sabetha bombs require at least 2 people. These are some examples of the mechanics that have hard requirements on the number of players in the group. Simply lowering the damage/health of KC will never allow a group of 5 players to beat the boss. There must be more changes to account for that…aka more dev time/resources.

Meh, to be honest, this seems to all boil down to making a “easy enough to get the raid done to unlock collections mode”

And to be honest, cutting the main Boss’es life in half, (maybe by 60%..) and reducing the actual damage by say 40%, should be enough to provide that.. have it be a one time mode like the story mode of dungeons, where doing it again would not net any progressive rewards.

As for all the other mechanics.. meh.. leave them in, they are not dependent on build, dps, so make em dance.

Can we stop blaming the community for content that Anet badly implemented?

Raids are completely fine, there was elitism even before they came. I’ve been using a Condi Rev using Carrion gear on T2/T3 Fracs since pretty much HoT came out and I’ve had no problem. Remember when Dungeon LFG was “Lvl 80 exp only”? What about those peeps that think an elementalist with Zerk gear or a Ranger with Viper is automatically better than a Reaper with Soldier that will end up dealing more damage than the ranger and ele because he will fall down less? Worse, more LFGs aren’t even speedrun groups.

The thing is, Raids didn’t turn the community into an elite festa out of the blues, this always existed.

Now, the implementation of Raids and how Anet manages them is bad, but well, what can I expect when they promised no geaer threadmill but they still introduce it in the form of new stat combos each expac? Raids in every other MMO I know, except maybe Wildstar, have an “easy” mode. FFXIV, WoW, Rift… This, being a mostly casual game, SHOULD have it, but Anet has been quite naive with the way they handle it to the public, their statements pretty much being “we can but we won’t because this is so pro”. To be honest, I understand why people feels so frustrated; we get recolored enemies and NPC models as bosses in fractals, Raids get so much better enemy and scenario design…

Aldath.1275:

…we get recolored enemies and NPC models as bosses in fractals, Raids get so much better enemy and scenario design…

Did it occur to you that’s precisely BECAUSE raids aren’t complete faceroll (even tough they actually are lol)?

What separates raid and open world bosses are not enemy models or storytelling. In my 1 year of raiding I’ve barely paid any attention to the story aspects of raids. It’s their complex mechanics and attack patterns that make the fights so intriguing. If you dumb them down, they’ll just become the new open world bosses and all the people calling for ezmodes will immediately lose interest.

I’m not even kidding at this point. What do you think separates Keep Construct from Inquest Golem Mk II? If you think it’s the storytelling or model design you’re just being delusional. It’s the gameplay mechanics that define raids.

Aldath.1275:

Can we stop blaming the community for content that Anet badly implemented?

Raids are completely fine, there was elitism even before they came. I’ve been using a Condi Rev using Carrion gear on T2/T3 Fracs since pretty much HoT came out and I’ve had no problem. Remember when Dungeon LFG was “Lvl 80 exp only”? What about those peeps that think an elementalist with Zerk gear or a Ranger with Viper is automatically better than a Reaper with Soldier that will end up dealing more damage than the ranger and ele because he will fall down less? Worse, more LFGs aren’t even speedrun groups.

The thing is, Raids didn’t turn the community into an elite festa out of the blues, this always existed.

Now, the implementation of Raids and how Anet manages them is bad, but well, what can I expect when they promised no geaer threadmill but they still introduce it in the form of new stat combos each expac? Raids in every other MMO I know, except maybe Wildstar, have an “easy” mode. FFXIV, WoW, Rift… This, being a mostly casual game, SHOULD have it, but Anet has been quite naive with the way they handle it to the public, their statements pretty much being “we can but we won’t because this is so pro”. To be honest, I understand why people feels so frustrated; we get recolored enemies and NPC models as bosses in fractals, Raids get so much better enemy and scenario design…

Has it occurred to you that maybe this game is different because it already features easier group content? Like fractals?

maddoctor.2738:

They added a second Raid team in the mix, which means we’ll get more Raids. You don’t add a second team to a failure, you add it to a success so it expands and gets even better.

Ok it seems that I’ve missed some Dev post. Would like to see where Anet talked about adding a second Raid-Team. Would be really nice if they did so they can pump out raids faster.

And this, my friends, is why we can not have nice things.

Henry.5713:

And this, my friends, is why we can not have nice things.

I agree 100%, this game was really nice, till they put in something as out of place as raids into it.

STIHL.2489:

Henry.5713:

And this, my friends, is why we can not have nice things.

I agree 100%, this game was really nice, till they put in something as out of place as raids into it.

“Nice” is subjective, which makes your whole statement more or less irrelevant. There are players who stay in the game because of raids. I bet they’d use different adjectives.

thrag.9740:

Substatic.6958:

Why not put in different raid difficulties so everyone can enjoy it?

They did:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/scale-raid-bosses-from-easiest-to-hardest

That isn’t raid difficulty.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Raid_difficulty

Not like this isn’t the millionth thread on “how to fix raids” and “why raids are evil things that are ANet’s biggest regret!”, but, well, this is the first one I’ve seen today, so I might as well post here. Since there are several conversation points, I’ll knock ’em out checklist-style.

Are raids bad? No. They’re content that requires teamwork and/or skill to complete, which means not everyone will be able to complete them. Saying this is wrong is rather silly, since PvP and WvW are also content that require teamwork and/or skill to complete. The only content that doesn’t require teamwork and/or some modicum of skill to complete is Core Tyria’s open world. When looking at it in comparison to all of the aforementioned content, Core Tyria’s open world isn’t as overwhelming a percentage as you might expect.

Should raids have different difficulties? Yes, actually. This is a tough debate with good points on both sides. The way I see it, you’ve got one of the most casual MMOs in history, and the vast majority of GW2 players are intimidated by raids or ignorant on how raiding actually works. They need to be hand-held across stepping stones if they’re ever going to get into it. World of Warcraft saw fit to modify its difficulties into, basically, four tiers: LFR, for people who do not want to be organized whatsoever; Normal, for the average family & friends guild group that just wants to play together sometimes; Heroic, for the average raiding guild that has raiding as its primary focus; and Mythic, for the high-end raiding guilds. To compare them to GW2, LFR is zerging a World Boss, Normal is a high-end Fractal, and actual raids are somewhere between Normal and Heroic.

When designing difficulties, the mechanics should stay the same but the damage/punishment should be different. Also, harder modes should have more mechanics. GW2 only needs two modes, as others here have suggested: a “story” mode and a normal mode, or a normal mode with a (more extensive) Challenge Mode. I’d prefer the latter, for a more distinct separation (no one would expect something with “challenge” in its name to be easy). GW2 doesn’t need LFR or Mythic.

For GW2’s Normal, I’d expect all the mechanics in each fight to be present, but kill timers would be more generous. I’d expect one-shot mechanics to instead deal a percentage of health as damage (e.g., 75%). I’d expect any mechanics that require people to perform certain duties to be present, but more lenient (like they have more time to get to a certain spot, run away from the group, or to kill an add). For the Challenge Mode, I’d expect what we have now, with an additional mechanic – one that emphasizes teamwork and communication – for each boss.

Obviously, implementing all of that will require a lot of work, so I don’t expect to see it. Ultimately, I hope the general GW2 community stops being scared of raiding and gives it a shot; if they can’t or are unwilling to put forth the effort and practice required to get better, then they won’t be successful. Thing is, they may find that it requires less effort and practice than they fear, but they’ll never know unless they try. More people than I’d certainly ever expect seem to raid, which means ANet didn’t make them as hard as they could have.

Is PUGing raids stupid? Yes. Find or make a guild. It’s the better option in any MMO with raiding.

This thread seems to have gotten derailed.
Oh well. I standby my ideals that raids are fine, but people are crazy.
Strong points stand and i want to acknowledge them:

Find a group.
I have a backwards inconsistent schedule so until very recently i thought this was impossible. I feel lucky. And now i agree this helps even if you think you lack the time.

Lead if you cannot find one.
I disagree with this one wholly. Not everyone can lead. It comes with great effort and responsibility that few are willing to go through, not to mention pure charisma that SO many lack.

Tbh, the last poster is totally right. Pugging is dumb. I wish we could fix the pug mindset
somehow, but this idea is just fantasy.

Tarasicodissa.7084:

Aldath.1275:

…we get recolored enemies and NPC models as bosses in fractals, Raids get so much better enemy and scenario design…

Did it occur to you that’s precisely BECAUSE raids aren’t complete faceroll (even tough they actually are lol)?

What separates raid and open world bosses are not enemy models or storytelling. In my 1 year of raiding I’ve barely paid any attention to the story aspects of raids. It’s their complex mechanics and attack patterns that make the fights so intriguing. If you dumb them down, they’ll just become the new open world bosses and all the people calling for ezmodes will immediately lose interest.

I’m not even kidding at this point. What do you think separates Keep Construct from Inquest Golem Mk II? If you think it’s the storytelling or model design you’re just being delusional. It’s the gameplay mechanics that define raids.

And surely WoW and FFXIV is completely hard without Raids and that’s why they introduced dificulties, right? With the right build, Open World MMOs, unless they’re a korean grindfest (and even those) have a tendency to be faceroll easy, whereas instanced content is challenging, and even then the most challenging content is tiered for all players to enjoy, be it dungeons (fractals for us) or raids.

It is quite baffling to see people selling a raid spot for 100 gold and how DPS meters have bled into T3 fractals when the people who uses them can’t even pull their own rotation right.

Why is it so bad that people wants tiered raid systems? It’s not like suddenly the high tiered raids will stop being challenging. So, like, in soccer, I should expect junior leagues to be eliminated because they have to “git gud to enjoy soccer”?

The fact that Raiding in its current state has divided the community so much just shows how badly implemented they are, it’s content we paid for in the expansion, yet many people can’t enjoy because it became a Discord VIP club.

And yes, it gets tiring when all we face for years is a leyline anomaly, an overgrown asura or cat golems; at least they included Wii Fit trainer as a boss this time.

Feanor.2358:

STIHL.2489:

Henry.5713:

And this, my friends, is why we can not have nice things.

I agree 100%, this game was really nice, till they put in something as out of place as raids into it.

“Nice” is subjective, which makes your whole statement more or less irrelevant. There are players who stay in the game because of raids. I bet they’d use different adjectives.

That was my entire point, that “nice” is entirely subjective. Good to see it did not go to waste. And no doubt that players quit over raids being put in, which again.. makes everything subjective, just because you like it, does not mean it was a net positive for the game or the games community.