Guild Wars 2

Once again I went to look for a dungeon group and saw yet another post that read as follows:

“NO necros, rangers, engineers”

So my question is: does banning a particular class from a run really improve the quality of that run? What have your experiences been?

For some clarification: I’ve completed Hobby Dungeon Explorer 53 times as of late last summer (almost all of which were pugs) so I’m not ‘new’ to the dungeon scene. In my own experience I have seen every class played well and every class played ineffectively (based on the particular dungeon and the experience/mindset of the player). I have at least one of every class, have dungeoned on them all, and have experimented with a great variety of specs. I have not personally experienced SO much disappointment from a given class that I’ve felt the need to ban it on my own runs. My goal in asking this is to (1) understand why it is people take this course of action and (2) to see if it really does improve the quality of their run – or if that’s all bias with no basis.

Just like requiring players to meet a certain threshold in AP, this doesn’t guarantee a better run. All it does is improve the likelihood of a better run.

Of all of the classes, those ones tend to be the least efficient and often played poorly. A poorly played class of the others will generally play better than those three when played poorly.

Dungeon groups have 5 people max per run. Each ideally in a perfect world should contribute 20% to the group and their overall success. The reason people say no rangers or engis is that often when you get them in your group they don’t contribute as much as they should. For example, ranger would range when we are stacked AoEing mobs down. Or they would refuse to swap out stuff since a lot of the utilities that rangers have aren’t useful to a group. So in a way even if say you have an extra warrior that you don’t really need (3x, 4x) it still in a way a bit better since at least they are contributing a bit more than rangers and engis. Now that is not to say all are bad since I have seen some great rangers and engis but it is more rare than anything. And to take a chance then 9/10 times you know it won’t be good is a risk most people don’t want to take with limited playing time.

As for Necro unfortunately they don’t have a lot of team utilities and traits for them so naturally they are outclassed by other professions with significantly more team defense/support. Which is a totally different rationale for why people may not want a necro compared to ranger or engi.

I think it would be more efficient to just ban none zerkers, seeing as all zerkers bring something to the table…

except necro’s, they don’t.

Gyler.8150:

I think it would be more efficient to just ban none zerkers, seeing as all zerkers bring something to the table…

except necro’s, they don’t.

Necros have some mighty strong autos, but they don’t cleave. :<

FenrirSlakt.3692:

Gyler.8150:

I think it would be more efficient to just ban none zerkers, seeing as all zerkers bring something to the table…

except necro’s, they don’t.

Necros have some mighty strong autos, but they don’t cleave. :<

My necro DS pierces (you’d be surprised how often mobs line up for that), I bring aoe blind a chill. My well of suffering+death shroud combo wrecks entire groups of trash mobs more so than the warriors and add to that boon corrupting with corrupt boon+well of corruption makes the dredge fractal that much more bearable.

Necros bring great things to groups. Either people play crappy builds or they haven’t played a necro and they misunderstand the class.
In short Necros are great in dungeons they bring good group utility and good damage.

Gyler.8150:

I think it would be more efficient to just ban none zerkers, seeing as all zerkers bring something to the table…

except necro’s, they don’t.

I think I’m going to ask you to back up that statement a bit.

Besides putting out blanket statements, my own experience says otherwise. I used to run CoF back when that was the ‘zerk only farm’ thing and I happened to join a group that had a necro in their party. The necro MELTED the gate faster than any ascended-geared zerk warrior I have ever seen. Now, it was a single-target instance and I have NO idea what on earth it was that necro did. It doesn’t change the problem with cleaving and it is just one instance, but I think the point is that it might be a bit extreme to say necros bring ‘nothing’ to the table, unless that one necro managed to hack the game.

….. which, maybe they did, I have no clue. xD

Short answer:

1) All classes are viable when played/built correctly.
2) The classes you mentioned are often excluded because PUGs are notorious for running the wrong build. Bearbows, Staff Necro & FT Engie most of the time, all of which are atrocious and offer literally nothing to the group.

I’m going to bring up a piece of anecdotal information, but I promise I have a point.

One time I was in a Fractal, and we got Molten for our final boss. We all died, except the one pug we had (was a guild run, mostly) soloed the berserker down from 75% to 0% giving us the revive. This PUG was a 13K AP Necromancer.

My group was stunned. I mean, we had been carried, the entire run, by a Necromancer Achievement Hunter… How could that be?

Moral:

In my opinion, it isn’t the class, the gear check, the achievement points, etc that determines the QoL of a given run. It’s the bloody RNG. This is why initiatives like the Dungeon Mentor guild and the other initiatives are so important. By doing this, we are improving the PUG Roulette RNG, one student at a time.

Class banning has its place in speed running. However, in my opinion, to expect a PUG to be speed running quality is foolhardy. I’ve had fun fractals and dungeons with all classes. Especially this shortbow cutie.

jportell.2197:

FenrirSlakt.3692:

Gyler.8150:

I think it would be more efficient to just ban none zerkers, seeing as all zerkers bring something to the table…

except necro’s, they don’t.

Necros have some mighty strong autos, but they don’t cleave. :<

My necro DS pierces (you’d be surprised how often mobs line up for that), I bring aoe blind a chill. My well of suffering+death shroud combo wrecks entire groups of trash mobs more so than the warriors and add to that boon corrupting with corrupt boon+well of corruption makes the dredge fractal that much more bearable.

Necros bring great things to groups. Either people play crappy builds or they haven’t played a necro and they misunderstand the class.
In short Necros are great in dungeons they bring good group utility and good damage.

Nothing that any other class does easier with more DPS in the same gear. Necro was supposed to be condition heavy build since condition damage nets u no loot and since other people’s stacks interferes with yours….

Lilith Ajit.6173:

I’m going to bring up a piece of anecdotal information, but I promise I have a point.

One time I was in a Fractal, and we got Molten for our final boss. We all died, except the one pug we had (was a guild run, mostly) soloed the berserker down from 75% to 0% giving us the revive. This PUG was a 13K AP Necromancer.

My group was stunned. I mean, we had been carried, the entire run, by a Necromancer Achievement Hunter… How could that be?

Moral:

In my opinion, it isn’t the class, the gear check, the achievement points, etc that determines the QoL of a given run. It’s the bloody RNG. This is why initiatives like the Dungeon Mentor guild and the other initiatives are so important. By doing this, we are improving the PUG Roulette RNG, one student at a time.

Class banning has its place in speed running. However, in my opinion, to expect a PUG to be speed running quality is foolhardy. I’ve had fun fractals and dungeons with all classes. Especially this shortbow cutie.

Not surprised that necro can carry for a few bosses but not all. That used to be the case more often before the DS nerf. Ironically I think the worst class to solo a boss would be the guardian because of low hp and all the skills equipped for support.

I agree with Lilith any class can do very well in Fracs and Dungeons its just dependent on the players skill. The big problem with rangers is it’s harder to optimize then a lot of the other classes but really easy to level so you get a lot of 80’s who just don’t know their class such as the infamous bear bows. Whats more important then the class? the experience and skill of the player, and of course the gear which (should) come hand in hand.

Khal Drogo.9631:

jportell.2197:

FenrirSlakt.3692:

Gyler.8150:

I think it would be more efficient to just ban none zerkers, seeing as all zerkers bring something to the table…

except necro’s, they don’t.

Necros have some mighty strong autos, but they don’t cleave. :<

My necro DS pierces (you’d be surprised how often mobs line up for that), I bring aoe blind a chill. My well of suffering+death shroud combo wrecks entire groups of trash mobs more so than the warriors and add to that boon corrupting with corrupt boon+well of corruption makes the dredge fractal that much more bearable.

Necros bring great things to groups. Either people play crappy builds or they haven’t played a necro and they misunderstand the class.
In short Necros are great in dungeons they bring good group utility and good damage.

Nothing that any other class does easier with more DPS in the same gear. Necro was supposed to be condition heavy build since condition damage nets u no loot and since other people’s stacks interferes with yours….

This is why I run a zerker necro in dungeons I get great loot and have great dps…. like I said necro’s are misunderstood when it comes to running dungeons

Personally, I find that the worst class to find in a PUG is Guardian. PUG Guardians are often bunkery healing builds camping Staff. If I had to pick one class to ban when I PUG, I’d select Guard. However, I dislike judging people based on class alone, so I let anyone join my PUG groups.

Allaraina.8614:

Does banning a class improve quality of life?

Long story short, well… yes.
Thankfully I don’t pug anymore sooooo.
/rolls away singing Once upon a dream

The group comps we, [DD], usually run are:

3 ele, 1 war, 1 thief: all AC, all CoE
2 ele, 1 war, 1 thief, 1 guard: TA up/fwd, CM 1/3, HotW 1, SE 1/3
2 ele, 1 war, 1 thief, 1 mes: Arah 2/3, CoF 1/2

For record runs the group comps are sometimes different, but normal 17 path, 4 hour tours are with the above group comps. There will sometimes be a ranger, but never a necro or engi. Those classes are just unnecessary in high-end PvE.

Allaraina.8614:

The necro MELTED the gate faster than any ascended-geared zerk warrior I have ever seen.

Ignoring stuff like cof p1 “speedrun” groups were terribly bad and 4war+1mes was a silly composition only used cause warrior can achieve highest dps with least brain activity(not that pressing 3 and 4 with fgs is brain surgery) and mesmer was basically pull and timewarp bot..that necro learned to use fiery flesh golem exploit. Go figure.

On topic: While pugging I’ve met: 1-2 good necros, 3-4 good rangers, 0 good engis. I’ve honestly never met a grenade engi. It’s a bad thing to judge by class but since you can’t see the skill of a random player it’s safer to assume a zerker warrior just pressing 2 on cooldown is better than whatever those 3 classes do. When you see a full signet ranger with bear pet and shortbow or a staff necro fearing every single pull or even better, aggroing with ds #4 you’ll want to post a similar lfg. But yea, the worst are staff guards.

For me the worst class to pug is guardian. LOTS of then run pure staff, and to make things worse they are very full of thenselves, they really think they are carrying the team with their build and they act very elitist if you question the effectiveness of staff.

Rangers and necros on the other hand usually have low self steem lol, they believe that their class suck, unlike guardians and warriors who think they are gods even when using trash buids.

Its sad when people don’t take time to learn their class especially with engies their traits are so straight forward. I built mine just by thinking a little but an lo and behold when I checked for the meta mine was exactly the same. Just takes a little thinking people.

My bomb heal support build with full cleric gear keeps my party members alive!!!

Banning classes that spam garbage fields improves my quality of life when I lay down fire fields a split second late. Guardians are notorious for this but they can provide other useful boons so it balances out.

Don’t feel insulted when random, biased people “ban” your favorite Professions. Waste of your time and energy, however unfair it is-make your own groups and have fun instead.

If you are not playing for the ultimate min/maxing efficient experience, it’s not worth your time even mulling over. All those Professions can do great, and DO bring great stuff to runs, but often those players are driven by math and/or metas (good or outdated) and want “even more”-it’s not really that those Professions “bring nothing for PvE” at all, it’s just how the efficient minded player rolls.

(Also, not ALL those players know what they ask for, so no worries. Some may think it’s cool to hate on Rangers-for instance-or appear “elite.” Don’t believe that all elitists LFG tool groups are indeed elite . :P Easier to ping gear and belittle than actually play to that high level.)

Actually it’s not a matter of ultimate min/maxing, record beating nor ‘standard’ speedruns. Even if you seek to PUG a just plain, smooth run you are better off without certain classes.

You may call it prejudice, very well. I was pugging for over a year, got to fractal 49 with three different characters, did almost a hundred of runs at this difficulty level and countless dungeon paths – with PUGs only. During this time I’ve never seen a Spotter (Frost Spirit maybe two/three times), sword Ranger nor dagger Necro. On the other hand plenty of bearbows, staff condi necros, shout heal warriors and staff guardians – even though I was asking for “melee dps with offensive build”.

So to answer the question, yes, unfortunately banning certain classes does improve PUG experience. It’s all about probability. Rangers, necros and engineers are very risky, guardians and thieves are lottery. On the other hand PUG warriors, eles and especially mesmers are quite safe to group with.

You may not like it, nor do I, but Feature patch may intensify class banning along with gear checking among PUGs – depending on the damage nerf, zerker groups might not afford to carry one or two members with non optimal builds and gear.

Yeah however this^ can be pretty far from the truth… Just finished a fractal 14 (PRL is 39) with a full pug. On cliffside everyone AOE’d down all the chanters… We wiped on the final boss with me and one other guard being the last two standing.

On the molten facility bosses (zerker+firestorm) I was keeping the firestorm busy while I thought the other 4 people were killing the zerker. I look at the party UI to see that not only is one other guardian dead but I am actually DPS’ing down the firestorm faster than the three remaining players are DPS’ing down the berserker…. I finally switch over and the berserker is dead about 20s later (both were at 25% health when I switched).

I say in party chat “Am I the only DPS….I was out DPS’ing three of you with staff”
One ele says “I was doing heals”… -_- you take that for what you will…
Another ele says “I’m DPS” This ele was S/d so it is believable based off weapon choice.
Noone else in the party answers.

So in this fractal run I was the only one playing a “bad” class (necro) but I was the only one that apparently had DPS. And I was also dodging better than the rest of the people in my group. Most of it felt like a 2-3 person fractal.

So I think class banning is silly.

Also @Konrad for as many condi necros and bear bow rangers that I have come across in dungeons I have come across just as many 5 signet warriors, triple meditation and/or altruistic healing bunker guardians, PU condi mesmers (-_-), and “healer” eles who contribute almost nothing to a group.

So this banning of a class is ridiculous. It should be more geared toward’s builds and not classes.

Well, like I said, it’s all about probability. There are decent rangers among PUGs, no one denies it – they are however swarmed by masses of bearbows.

Well tbh, the bearbow sindrome is quite spread. My main is a ranger and i often cringe when i see a lb+bear ranger in the dungeon run.

For OP, banning some classes improves chances of a better run, but it’s not a fail proof method. Also ppl don’t read the lfg descriptions, so it’s kinda expected

The very best PUGs I have run with are made up of top or mid tier DPS classes, while the absolute worst were motley crews of mid-low tier DPS. I’m guessing this has been most other players’ experience as well, hence the ‘bans’.

Ranger can be quite good situationally, especially with the right build, but the pets make them a bit of a liability. Necro and Engy don’t bring anything to a party that another class could not do better.

Banning classes overall is mostly pointless, but limiting the amount of one class can often be a good idea. Your PuG isn’t going to suffer all that much from having a necro. It will however suffer if you have three of them, or if it’s taking the last spot and you really need x class to fill that spot instead.

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

Banning classes overall is mostly pointless, but limiting the amount of one class can often be a good idea. Your PuG isn’t going to suffer all that much from having a necro. It will however suffer if you have three of them, or if it’s taking the last spot and you really need x class to fill that spot instead.

This has me thinking … has anyone ever done a 5 necromancer AC run? Which weapon set does best on burrows I wonder ?

Someone should do this and stream it.

Ehhhhhhh. No idea… There’s just… they have no cleave, so all you can do is go dagger/horn with maybe wells I guess? You can’t play scepter, staff or axe. Not much left.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

This has me thinking … has anyone ever done a 5 necromancer AC run? Which weapon set does best on burrows I wonder ?

Someone should do this and stream it.

It’s not that bad, honestly. Flesh Golem charge clears pretty much every burrow and wells / dagger AA do a number on them too.

I have done a 5 necromancer run on AC, needless to say it was tricky because i was the only zerker.

but yes the way to do it is with warhorn 5 and well of corruption. send 2 one side send 2 other side. stack wells and locusts and your 5th person hovers middle and kites till the middle burrow pops and drop wells etc. (( assuming we are talking about path one. )

it CAN be done, but like anything you have to think about what your CLASS not your build can provide to the situation.

How many times have you heard some random warrior not dropping a banner because he runs shouts? or.. (insert random build concept here)

As an avid Necromancer player even I admit to the fact that Necros just dont provide what others do better.

Necromancer is a casual for fun, do anything class. unless something changes soon, they will never be part of the “speed run” meta. Which is more or less what the hate for zerker comes from is so many people trying to be speed runners. but not understanding all the nuances that make the speed run groups. ( DnT, rT, DD, LoD, etc) effective at what they do.

and i am rambling, so i will shut up.

Plox sword on necros!

Rising Dusk.2408:

It’s not that bad, honestly. Flesh Golem charge clears pretty much every burrow and wells / dagger AA do a number on them too.

This, really. The hardest part is targeting the last couple burrows on p1 under the mass of gravelings that have already spawned.

My experience with 5 necro AC wasn’t exactly great… waited 9-10 mins for group to fill (my guild is inactive =\), and got 4 guys running signet of the locust. Yeahh… pretty sure they were all condi builds besides me as well. Which was not fun for burrows. Got it finished and left after p1. This was a few weeks back, so no vid for you guys, sorry. If anyone else wants to give it a go, hit me up in-game. (I’m in NA)

Edit: removed a redundant statement

This kind of class discrimination happens because the players hear that a class is trash for pve (for example bearbow rangers) so they believe that, even without having knowledge about the class. In the past when cof p1 farm was popular everyone thought that warrior with greatsword was the best dps in the game, and they believed that you had to always have a mesmer in the group no matter what, and people didn’t even gear-checked mesmers for speedruns because of how over-hyped mesmers were. I remember in some pugs the leader making us wait a quite long time to fill the last slot with a mesmer for dungeons like TA, where mesmer is not even useful that much.

In the past the community also believed that AH guardians were the best thing to have in groups, until some people start to question why other setups like shout heal warriors were considered trash but AH guardians were meta, if you search those threads you will see some of the “elitist” crowd confirming that AH guardians are really useful and so on.

So basically, people just follow what others say like sheep.

Casmurro.9046:

So basically, people just follow what others say like sheep.

I agree. About 95%+ of players rely on others for their builds and have absolutely no idea how to create their own and experiment. What’s even worse is that newer guides now have skill rotations dumbing things down even further.

Ayrilana.1396:

I agree. About 95%+ of players rely on others for their builds and have absolutely no idea how to create their own and experiment. What’s even worse is that newer guides now have skill rotations dumbing things down even further.

Us 5% did a lot of work theorycrafting meta builds and writing guides. I would much prefer that the other 95% just used the builds and rotations that we came up with instead of trying to “create their own.” Why? Because when the 95% “experiment,” as you put it, what they come up with are bear-bows and shout-healers.

Players relying on others for builds is fine, but they should at least put some thought into why the build is good themselves instead of just eating up everything they’re told. The AH guardian is really the best example of people not thinking for themselves but instead just listening to a respected figure.

TL;DR You don’t need to make your own builds, but at least try to understand for yourself why the build is good/not good.

Anierna.6918:

Ayrilana.1396:

I agree. About 95%+ of players rely on others for their builds and have absolutely no idea how to create their own and experiment. What’s even worse is that newer guides now have skill rotations dumbing things down even further.

Us 5% did a lot of work theorycrafting meta builds and writing guides. I would much prefer that the other 95% just used the builds and rotations that we came up with instead of trying to “create their own.” Why? Because when the 95% “experiment,” as you put it, what they come up with are bear-bows and shout-healers.

Well I didn’t go into too much detail with my post but Mexican Cookie covered the rest.

The issues I see with people using others’ builds is that they have no idea why that particular build is optimal. It’s even worse when they follow a set skill rotation and then run into a situation where that doesn’t work.

I’ve repeated hobby dungeon explorer 113 times and I can tell you that most expert parties are better off without a necro, ranger or engie.

PowerCat.5738:

I’ve repeated hobby dungeon explorer 113 times and I can tell you that most expert parties are better off without a necro, ranger or engie.

You have never been in an expert party. You know nothing, Jon Slow.

I believe expert parties bring a ranger for the buffs. I don’t know about engineer though.

Engineer is just a vuln/combo field (smoke+fire) bot. I don’t believe anyone has found a reason to use one in a record run, but they’re perfectly viable to use in casual runs. It’s just a jack of all trades class; you don’t need it if you have other classes that bring everything the engineer does (i.e. a thief+ele).

Engineers are one of the better pug classes though (general dungeons).

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

PowerCat.5738:

I’ve repeated hobby dungeon explorer 113 times and I can tell you that most expert parties are better off without a necro, ranger or engie.

You have never been in an expert party. You know nothing, Jon Slow.

You don’t know me.

PowerCat.5738:

You don’t know me.

That’s exactly why I know.

jportell.2197:

I say in party chat “Am I the only DPS….I was out DPS’ing three of you with staff”
One ele says “I was doing heals”… -_- you take that for what you will…
Another ele says “I’m DPS” This ele was S/d so it is believable based off weapon choice.

Staff necro. You deserve your fate.

robertul.3679:

jportell.2197:

I say in party chat “Am I the only DPS….I was out DPS’ing three of you with staff”
One ele says “I was doing heals”… -_- you take that for what you will…
Another ele says “I’m DPS” This ele was S/d so it is believable based off weapon choice.

Staff necro. You deserve your fate.

More like: Necro. You deserve your fate.

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

PowerCat.5738:

You don’t know me.

That’s exactly why I know.

Being in DnT doesn’t make you the best gw2 player. Walk down from your throne of pretention and you’ll see there are skilled players out there.

Not everyone has something to prove by making youtube videos or claiming fame.

Good day, sir.

robertul.3679:

jportell.2197:

I say in party chat “Am I the only DPS….I was out DPS’ing three of you with staff”
One ele says “I was doing heals”… -_- you take that for what you will…
Another ele says “I’m DPS” This ele was S/d so it is believable based off weapon choice.

Staff necro. You deserve your fate.

Okay jack hole in this boss fight staff is the only ranged weapon i had besides axe. It’s not exactly safe trying to melee the firestorm while your party SHOULD be taking out the berserker.
And I say again with my staff (yes i know the DPS blows but I had no other options at the time.) I was out DPSing two eles and two guards. So my fate was to be stuck with so called “meta” classes that suck at life. Get over yourself. Meta classes have nothing to do with it it’s people running kitten low dps builds.

jportell.2197:

robertul.3679:

jportell.2197:

I say in party chat “Am I the only DPS….I was out DPS’ing three of you with staff”
One ele says “I was doing heals”… -_- you take that for what you will…
Another ele says “I’m DPS” This ele was S/d so it is believable based off weapon choice.

Staff necro. You deserve your fate.

Okay jack hole in this boss fight staff is the only ranged weapon i had besides axe. It’s not exactly safe trying to melee the firestorm while your party SHOULD be taking out the berserker.
And I say again with my staff (yes i know the DPS blows but I had no other options at the time.) I was out DPSing two eles and two guards. So my fate was to be stuck with so called “meta” classes that suck at life. Get over yourself. Meta classes have nothing to do with it it’s people running kitten low dps builds.

It’s not about being necro. It’s about using subpar weapons for your class. If those 2 guards were not dps you should be able to tell pretty fast, way before last fractal. Not many “support” guards with gs+s/f. Staff, mace, scepter are always a red flag. With ele is pretty easy to tell if they do a might rotation or just randomly press buttons.

Also this is the risk of not gearchecking and not paying attention during the run.
If you’re ok with them not running dps then maybe ask them to kite firestorm while you dps berserker? Although kiting is a bad strategy.
Edit: Level 14? I think if 5 people in full sentinel just press autoattacks berserker should be dead in 30-60s.