Don't use the term "Rez-rushing"
That is true rez rushing does make it seem like it’s the players doing something bad…
When you look into an abyss, the abyss also looks into you.
Who is to say which word is a buzzword which is not?
Who is to say which word is a buzzword which is not?
Which word is more replaceable? “Respawning” or “Rez-rushing?” They mean the same thing, but “Respawning” has existed for far longer than “Rez-rushing,” and “Rez-rushing” only has a negative connotation because Robert Hroda decided to use the term in a negative post in which he wagged his finger angrily at players that played the game (GW2) correctly and optimally. “Rez-rushing” literally has no meaning. It’s a thin, paper-mache cover of negativity that an ANet developer slipped over the otherwise neutral definition of the word “Respawning” and then marketed to the GW2 player base in order to justify his implementation of a terrible game-play feature.
I am curious, Swagg, if you could link the earliest post where Robert uses this term?
Genevieve Talbot [NP] – Noble Phantasm on Stormbluff Isle
That is true rez rushing does make it seem like it’s the players doing something bad…
Not gearing properly, not bringing and using the right weapons/utilities, not learning the boss tells and not dodging properly are things players are doing badly.
I’m not debating how good the mechanics are, but all bosses are doable w/o ‘res-rushing’
Nanuuk (80 Mes), Guardian Nuuk (80 Guard),
Warrior Nuuk (80 War)
[ALS], Anvil Rock
Warrior Nuuk (80 War)
[ALS], Anvil Rock
I am curious, Swagg, if you could link the earliest post where Robert uses this term?
Hey folks, I’m Robert Hrouda, a content designer on Guild Wars 2. In the coming months, we’ll make some changes to dungeon mechanics to make them a more fun and challenging experience. I wanted to give you a heads-up on our plans for phase 1 of our dungeons evolution—specifically, the removal of “res-rushing”—as well as a brief overview of our plans for phase 2.
“Res-rushing” is when a player uses a waypoint to resurrect immediately after being defeated in a dungeon and then runs back to the fight, instead of waiting for their party members to resurrect them.
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/robert-hrouda-on-upcoming-changes-to-dungeon-mechanics/
SoR Server
Libertys Knight 80 Warrior, Mrs Liberty 80 Ranger
Hitechredneck 80 Guard, Legendary Bozo 80 Mez
Libertys Knight 80 Warrior, Mrs Liberty 80 Ranger
Hitechredneck 80 Guard, Legendary Bozo 80 Mez
That is true rez rushing does make it seem like it’s the players doing something bad…
Not gearing properly, not bringing and using the right weapons/utilities, not learning the boss tells and not dodging properly are things players are doing badly.
I’m not debating how good the mechanics are, but all bosses are doable w/o ‘res-rushing’
I think you mean “respawning.”
Also your point is taken, and has been made already elsewhere several times. It holds true when you know what you’re doing in dungeons, but I can’t imagine how new players would feel playing this game and this stuff happening to them. It also makes dungeon running far more tedious and difficult than need be for parties that aren’t all level 80 warriors and guardians as per the dungeon meta-game at the moment.
You make the case that “not dying solves the problem.” It does to an extent. But never dying doesn’t remove the awful feature that is “no respawns if party is in combat.” That whole situation is like having a split in the foundation of your house and saying “Well, my house hasn’t collapsed yet so it isn’t a bad feature.” You are defending that bad foundation.
Who is to say which word is a buzzword which is not?
Which word is more replaceable? “Respawning” or “Rez-rushing?” They mean the same thing, but “Respawning” has existed for far longer than “Rez-rushing,” and “Rez-rushing” only has a negative connotation because Robert Hroda decided to use the term in a negative post in which he wagged his finger angrily at players that played the game (GW2) correctly and optimally. “Rez-rushing” literally has no meaning. It’s a thin, paper-mache cover of negativity that an ANet developer slipped over the otherwise neutral definition of the word “Respawning” and then marketed to the GW2 player base in order to justify his implementation of a terrible game-play feature.
One is specific, one is general and not completely relevant.
Just because you call it a buzzword doesn’t mean it is a buzzword.
You can call torture an “enhanced interrogation technique”, doesn’t change the fact that it is still torture.
It may be the first time I’ve heard this particular word, but it’s far from the first time I’ve seen the practice or seen a community and/or developers call it a special name.
I was just remarking in another thread how interesting it was that different gaming communities come up with different terms for it. Heck, Graveyard zerging from WoW even has it’s own Wiki page (http://www.wowwiki.com/Graveyard_zerg).
That is true rez rushing does make it seem like it’s the players doing something bad…
Not gearing properly, not bringing and using the right weapons/utilities, not learning the boss tells and not dodging properly are things players are doing badly.
I’m not debating how good the mechanics are, but all bosses are doable w/o ‘res-rushing’
I think you mean “respawning.”
Also your point is taken, and has been made already elsewhere several times. It holds true when you know what you’re doing in dungeons, but I can’t imagine how new players would feel playing this game and this stuff happening to them. It also makes dungeon running far more tedious and difficult than need be for parties that aren’t all level 80 warriors and guardians as per the dungeon meta-game at the moment.
You make the case that “not dying solves the problem.” It does to an extent. But never dying doesn’t remove the awful feature that is “no respawns if party is in combat.” That whole situation is like having a split in the foundation of your house and saying “Well, my house hasn’t collapsed yet so it isn’t a bad feature.” You are defending that bad foundation.
Devs have already said in blogs they’re working on boss mechanics.
So, 1) currently dungeons are still doable and 2) they’re working to make the foundation better. I don’t see a problem as long as they stick to continued improvements that they’ve stated.
Until then experienced people need to teach the new guys or stick to their group if they don’t have the patience. I just led at least 2 completely new people through CoE 2&3. I had a third that rage quit but he was unwilling to listen and adapt. His subsequent deaths led him to jut leave the party.
Nanuuk (80 Mes), Guardian Nuuk (80 Guard),
Warrior Nuuk (80 War)
[ALS], Anvil Rock
Warrior Nuuk (80 War)
[ALS], Anvil Rock
Thank you Libertys Knight, I appreciate that.
I’d like to say this, given that the post Robert Hrouda made that Liberys linked is from Jan 28th, 2013. I don’t believe Robert Hrouda coined the term. In fact, I believe the player community coined the term, and choosing to say that Robert or Anet made the term so they could forward an agenda is Libelous.
I have 2 points.
1. Rez Rushing is synonymous with Waypoint Zerging.
There are many names that have been given to the act defined. Libertys’ post gives the definition, and I believe that “Res Zerging”, “Res Rushing”, “Waypoint Zerging”, “Corpse Running” etc. all mean the same thing.
2. People have been using this term since before Jan 28th.
Kuthos.9623 makes mention of both “Waypoint Zerging” and “Rez Zerging” in the same post mentioned here:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Corpse-Running-Waypoints-and-Boss-Fights/first#post383027
As you can see, this post is 3 months old. I’m sure given a bit more digging, I could potentially find older posts relating to the same topic.
My point in making this post is that people are quick to judge and scapegoat. Before throwing accusations around, please consider carefully the veracity of your claims.
I personally think character-wise that Robert is a very communicative and helpful person who works for the good of the player base with the power he has been allotted by his position. Why crucify him for something he didn’t do?
Genevieve Talbot [NP] – Noble Phantasm on Stormbluff Isle
This term has existed since early in the game when players complained about the absurdities of dungeons and their inability to understand why it even exists in this game. They mentioned it months ago this waypoint zerg being changed. The term is buried somewhere in one of these early posts by either the devs or players.
rez rushing rez rushing rez rushing
Doesn’t matter what it’s called, it’s gone. Good riddance too.
Also “Res-Rushing” was coined about 10-15 years ago in other MMOs like EQ, UO, WoW, etc.
Even though I’m sure the Devs will hate this, I’m going to make comparisons to wow, which could be argued in the most successful mmo in ages.
In wow you can’t rez a dead player in combat. Players who choose to go to the graveyard can’t re-enter the boss fight and are locked out.
In GW2 you can rez a dead player in combat, and while we also can’t “graveyard” anymore we don’t get locked out of boss fights.
Technically we’re a step ahead (but I’ll agree some bosses are too hard).
Going to add my to cents to this being a vetern play from many MMOs that spans over 15 years. The dungeons are doable but not doable to the point of taking new peeps in. So they fixed rez rushing so what they should have fixed the other bugs to like the mobs pulling you through walls and hitting you throu walls when you cant hit back. I got 27K HP and a heal that returns a 10th of that while I am taking a 10K tic from a dot and 10K hits from the boss….no dedicated healers in game. Anet promised that you would not need picked classes to complete dungeons….they failed on that…now you need at least 2 AOE. Peeps had just started to get good at the dungeons with all their flaws and Anets slaps the customers in the face. GW2 had a good run , however when ESO hits I forsee only the diehard PVPers still handing around.
Then I’ll go ahead and continue to make my point that, regardless of when the term “rez-rushing” was first coined, it remains this strawman term that has no purpose except to somehow stigmatize the idea of respawning in a game and continuing to contribute to that game as expected.
Anet is guilty of trying to use this worthless term to justify a bad dungeon mechanic.
Thank you Libertys Knight, I appreciate that.
I’d like to say this, given that the post Robert Hrouda made that Liberys linked is from Jan 28th, 2013. I don’t believe Robert Hrouda coined the term. In fact, I believe the player community coined the term, and choosing to say that Robert or Anet made the term so they could forward an agenda is Libelous.
I have 2 points.
1. Rez Rushing is synonymous with Waypoint Zerging.
There are many names that have been given to the act defined. Libertys’ post gives the definition, and I believe that “Res Zerging”, “Res Rushing”, “Waypoint Zerging”, “Corpse Running” etc. all mean the same thing.2. People have been using this term since before Jan 28th.
Kuthos.9623 makes mention of both “Waypoint Zerging” and “Rez Zerging” in the same post mentioned here:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Corpse-Running-Waypoints-and-Boss-Fights/first#post383027As you can see, this post is 3 months old. I’m sure given a bit more digging, I could potentially find older posts relating to the same topic.
My point in making this post is that people are quick to judge and scapegoat. Before throwing accusations around, please consider carefully the veracity of your claims.
I personally think character-wise that Robert is a very communicative and helpful person who works for the good of the player base with the power he has been allotted by his position. Why crucify him for something he didn’t do?
u wot m8?
Then I’ll go ahead and continue to make my point that, regardless of when the term “rez-rushing” was first coined, it remains this strawman term that has no purpose except to somehow stigmatize the idea of respawning in a game and continuing to contribute to that game as expected.
Anet is guilty of trying to use this worthless term to justify a bad dungeon mechanic.
Arena Net considered the cries of players saying how terrible it was that people Waypoint Zerged. You can see it in the post I linked in my previous post.
They made a decision as a Reaction to the player base.
The responsibility of these changes lies with us, the player base. That’s you. That’s me. I never personally asked for some of these changes, but then again I never stood against them either.
In the end, you’re going to have to live with it. Will it be modified? I think that there will be a few tweaks (possibly things like people who fall in lava during boss fights get teleported to a reachable platform so they could get ressed).
Should we stop posting suggestions? Certainly not, but I think flinging blame around because you’re angry about a change is irresponsible and immature. If you want change to happen, if you want to forward an agenda on these forums, you probably shouldn’t be flinging insults around.
u wot m8?
y r not use yuor hed soemtimes?
Genevieve Talbot [NP] – Noble Phantasm on Stormbluff Isle
(edited by DigitalKirin.9714)
Then I’ll go ahead and continue to make my point that, regardless of when the term “rez-rushing” was first coined, it remains this strawman term that has no purpose except to somehow stigmatize the idea of respawning in a game and continuing to contribute to that game as expected.
Anet is guilty of trying to use this worthless term to justify a bad dungeon mechanic.
Arena Net considered the cries of players saying how terrible it was that people Waypoint Zerged. You can see it in the post I linked in my previous post.
They made a decision as a Reaction to the player base.
The responsibility of these changes lies with us, the player base. That’s you. That’s me. I never personally asked for some of these changes, but then again I never stood against them either.
In the end, you’re going to have to live with it. Will it be modified? I think that there will be a few tweaks (possibly things like people who fall in lava during boss fights get teleported to a reachable platform so they could get ressed).
Are you Robert Hroda using an alt account?
Also-“-just going to have to live with it?” Are you not a player (unless you really are an ANet developer in disguise)? As a player—the one who invests time and money into this game—are you not entitled to determining how this game develops? I know I am. I’m voicing my concern for the path down which GW2 is treading. This dungeon change isn’t a matter of “Oh, just don’t die, you scrub.” It’s a matter of them literally undermining their own game-play designs in part of a prevailing effort to seemingly turn their backs on several of the forward-thinking philosophies present in Guild Wars 1 and the GW2 MMO Manifesto.
Should we stop posting suggestions? Certainly not, but I think flinging blame around because you’re angry about a change is irresponsible and immature. If you want change to happen, if you want to forward an agenda on these forums, you probably shouldn’t be flinging insults around.
I’m not flinging insults; I’m raising points. Whether you want to try to skirt around those with ad hominem arguments is your choice, but it won’t prove me wrong.
y not use yuor hed soemtimes?
Now who’s insulting whom?
(edited by Swagg.9236)
Are you Robert Hroda using an alt account?
Nope. If he has something to say, I’m sure he’d use his actual account.
Also-“-just going to have to live with it?” Are you not a player (unless you really are an ANet developer in disguise)? As a player—the one who invests time and money into this game—are you not entitled to determining how this game develops?
They’ve made a change based on the request of the general player base. You can voice your opinion otherwise. I’m not saying you shouldn’t. In fact, you should because that’s how change gets made. But there’s a good way and a bad way of pushing an agenda.
As of right now, the current state of the game is that you can’t waypoint zerg. If you want some kind of change, you’re going to have to point out why three+ months of people asking for change to the current state of affairs is worse than the previous state of affairs. If you cannot do this, then you’re going to have to live with how the game currently is.
I’m not flinging insults; I’m raising points.
“Rez-rushing” only has a negative connotation because Robert Hroda decided to use the term in a negative post in which he wagged his finger angrily at players that played the game (GW2) correctly and optimally. “Rez-rushing” literally has no meaning. It’s a thin, paper-mache cover of negativity that an ANet developer slipped over the otherwise neutral definition of the word “Respawning” and then marketed to the GW2 player base in order to justify his implementation of a terrible game-play feature.
These accusations are libelous. You insult someone when you spread libel.
Whether you want to try to skirt around those with ad hominem arguments is your choice, but it won’t prove me wrong.
Ad hominem attacks are where one person makes personal attacks to weaken another person’s credibility in an attempt to make a person’s argument invalid instead of pointing out the logical flaws in their arguments.
I have not questioned your character or moral being. I’ve pointed out that your argument fails to stand on its own value.
Now who’s insulting whom?
u wot m8?
Genevieve Talbot [NP] – Noble Phantasm on Stormbluff Isle
The bad design decision was having the ability to respawn and engage the boss again and again, which they have now fixed. If this impairs your ability to do dungeons than maybe you shouldn’t have been doing them to begin with. Adapt and become a better player or leave it be.
resing and rezrushing is not the same. respowning is what you said it is. rezrushing is tactic using respowning to kill a boss.
I’ll go ahead and define the term ‘Respawn’ for you in the context of GW2, OP.
Respawn: the act of returning to a previous point in the game after being defeated when engaging the enemy is no longer an option.
Technically, when you’re completely defeated but an ally is still alive, you still have the option of engaging the enemy. All you have to do is be rezzed. If your allies are no longer alive, the enemy is defeated, it was choosen by your allies to disengage or there never was an enemy to begin with that is when you then respawn.
The only reason that “Rez-rushing” as a term even exists is so a select few ANet developers can delude themselves into thinking that running to a fully dead ally in the midst of a boss fight or environmental death trap, kneeling by said ally and subjecting one’s self to certain death situations for 15-second intervals qualifies as “teamwork.” Moreover, apparently dying and sitting out of a boss fight because your teammates are smart enough not to kill themselves trying to resurrect a fully dead ally while there are 1 or 2-hit KO attacks flying about the area also qualifies as “teamwork” in the eyes of ArenaNet. In a game where raw, consistent damage is king (given that there is no trinity), developers decided on a whim that crippling a dungeon group’s ability to do damage should someone in that group die was a good idea.
It’s a 5-man team; not a 40-man raid where losing 2 or 3 people might not be that big of a deal, or getting some sort of spawn wave might actually have an impact on battle. You NEED all five people there constantly to be successful. Removing that just makes dungeons more artificially difficult, tedious and annoying.
I’ve kept silent long enough on this issue hoping for the speedy implementation of “phase 2”. However, since we do not have an ETA on the promised “dungeon boss re-evaluation”, I am compelled to weigh in on this potentially game-breaking change to dungeons.
I have 4 level 80 characters fully kitted in exotics thanks to dungeon rewards. For me, dungeons were not only my “end game”, but a rewarding and challenging method of level advancement since the personal story and renowned hearts get rather monotonous after the second alt. The open world is impoverished from a loot standpoint, so the dungeon token system is the only reliable means of securing decent gear without cashing in gems for gold or playing “TP Wars”.
Despite me being in a very active guild, I ran with lots of PUG groups since guildies were not always available. Some of these groups were quite experienced, but more than half had at least one or two party members that were new to the dungeon or had < level 80 toons they were trying to level. It was rewarding to see first-timers express their appreciation in chat saying “Hey, that was great! Thanks for showing me the ropes!”. As it stands now, a mixed group of experienced and inexperienced players is a recipe for complete frustration.
Case in point, I was in a mixed PUG group the other day in Honor of the Waves. We were on path 1 for TWO HOURS because the party kept wiping due to players becoming a target for the boss during the unreasonably long revival process. Some say, “Well, you just need to use different traits with the new roolz”. My warrior is has 30 points invested in toughness with gear to match and has a +400 toughness bonus when rezzing other players.
It didn’t make a bit of difference.
So after an excruciating couple of hours, we finally get to the last boss: The Butcher. After a furious and valiant effort by all, his health was well over 90% finished when a couple of simple errors ballooned into a full party wipe facilitated mostly by resurrectors becoming easy targets for the boss’s “cheap” 1/2 shot kills. I cannot tell you how demoralizing it was to see The Butcher’s health bar fill up from 10% back up to 100% after the wipe. It was more than one player could take. He apologized in chat, but said he did not wish to continue. He did not “rage quit” by disengaging from the party, but was simply too exhausted to continue.
You know what? I honestly did not blame him one bit.
I am utterly positive that this player’s experience is not unique. So go ahead, plaster the thread with l2p posts with snide remarks about someone’s lack of experience or ability, if doing so somehow elevates you. The fact of the matter is that we already had “elite” dungeons before the patch: Arah and Fractals. Why bring ALL dungeons up to masochistic levels to the exclusion players with less experience and/or ability? Not everyone has cat-like reflexes and even talented players have bad days. ONE simple mistake is now unforgiving and has tremendous consequences for the party. One man down represents a 20% reduction in DPS and overall party effectiveness in an environment where bosses have prodigious amounts of hit points and one-shot kills.
snip
I feel ya. I had a similar run in CoF on Magg’s path. I’ve done this dungeon plenty of times even after the changes to dungeon rules…and this was a full guild party too! But at the ‘Defend Magg’ part the elementalist just died for some reason, the ranger was plinking at range and not using anything to help the group but mediocre damage, and maybe Staff isn’t the best weapon to use on a guardian in that fight? It was just me (war) and thief pulling everyone’s weight.
I don’t have the heart to tell them they’re bad (they’re casual players like me but I always PuG) or maybe they’re used to running with others in our guild that are SUPER AWESOMER than I am, but we barely made it through that dungeon after a couple of hours and multiple team wipes on different sections. I guess if I spec for shouts and use GS rather than my regen banners and condition removing warhorn, but then how am I rocking other dungeons so hard, taking out trash with ease and constantly the dependable rezzer when bosses start spamming AoEs?
I’m just going to chalk it up to some teams being good and some being bad. Apparently I’m not good at carrying weak players like some of my guild but I can contribute strongly when people know how to play. I’d say you’re in the same boat. You can only rez someone from downed so many times before they go insta-dead anyway. At which point, it gets harder to keep the fight going, or more productively, simply ending the fight.
All in all, I feel you but feel you’re not looking at the big picture. The game should be rewarding you (the players) with challenges that you legitimately pass. Do you feel the previous means of defeating dungeons was legitimate? I know, more often than not, players used rez-rushing as a means of kittening any efforts to help their allies in need. Why bother with support abilities? Just get max DPS and if you get unlucky, rush back. Someone goes down? Don’t risk it. They can rush back.
Now? You’d better dang will find a way to keep people alive or you may be in for a disappointing defeat.
All in all, I feel you but feel you’re not looking at the big picture. The game should be rewarding you (the players) with challenges that you legitimately pass. Do you feel the previous means of defeating dungeons was legitimate? I know, more often than not, players used rez-rushing as a means of kittening any efforts to help their allies in need. Why bother with support abilities? Just get max DPS and if you get unlucky, rush back. Someone goes down? Don’t risk it. They can rush back.
So there is no misunderstanding, I happen to AGREE with the changes in principle. However, the boss encounters were originally calibrated to work within a system which allowed waypoint reviving immediately after dying. Hence the necessity of a “phase 2” promised by the developers, which cannot happen quickly enough.
Why for the love of Tyria did they roll out a partially-developed system that essentially breaks dungeons for multitudes of players, save for a small segment of highly experienced dungeoneers? Why did they not implement this new system including the reworked boss encounters? It just makes no sense whatsoever.
I like to just think that it’ll only get easier then.
Why for the love of Tyria did they roll out a partially-developed system that essentially breaks dungeons for multitudes of players, save for a small segment of highly experienced dungeoneers? Why did they not implement this new system including the reworked boss encounters? It just makes no sense whatsoever.
They can look at metrics and certainly tell what areas caused people to respawn often, and they already tweaked accordingly.
But the larger problem is that fixing things so that Support and Control are no longer being trivialized inevitably means a Meta Shift away from being too skewed towards Damage. And how the blazes do you balance around a future yet unseen Meta?
We’ve never had incentive to explore what the infinite creativity of millions of players can come up with in regards to support and control. If we don’t know what we’re capable of, how would they?
/edit: clarity
(edited by Vox Hollow.2736)