Guild Wars 2

Anet is gonna make the same mistake that Soe made back in the day with Star wars galaxies… they’re gonna do a massive revamp of the fight system (forcing players to change all their gear and weaponry) and in less than a week lose over 70% of their player base. Star wars galaxies for as much good work as they did afterwards (returning their fight system back to the original plataform and implementing a lot of cool features) did never recover. Then again history repeats itself.

Is almost as the fact that right now Gw2 is the or one of the best mmos out there isnt enough for them.

So only having one real viable build per class isn’t broken?

So ANet shouldn’t try to increase the variety of viable builds in a way that isn’t nerfing the one build?

Edit to fix phone autocorrect.

We are all in support of buffing other builds to create variety, however you will find not many people are in favor of nerfing the current successful builds.

As they say on the Old El Paso Ads, ‘Why can’t we just have both?’

J Eberle.9312:

We are all in support of buffing other builds to create variety, however you will find not many people are in favor of nerfing the current successful builds.

As they say on the Old El Paso Ads, ‘Why can’t we just have both?’

Too true.

Oh god, that takes me back.

Are you comparing this targeting of the DPS meta to CU/NGE because you’re worried the game is going to re-institute the Trinity, or you just don’t want to face the possibility of grind and are overreacting a bit ala’ a person comparing somebody to Hitler?

If it’s the former, I think you’re jumping the gun a bit. It seem to me they’re just trying to give already existing playstyles in the game more representation in PVE. There’s nothing in that idea that necessarily requires a massive revamp of the fighting system, especially not to the crazysauce level SWG did.

Nandor The Stampede.1593:

Anet is gonna make the same mistake that Soe made back in the day with Star wars galaxies… they’re gonna do a massive revamp of the fight system (forcing players to change all their gear and weaponry) and in less than a week lose over 70% of their player base. Star wars galaxies for as much good work as they did afterwards (returning their fight system back to the original plataform and implementing a lot of cool features) did never recover. Then again history repeats itself.

Is almost as the fact that right now Gw2 is the or one of the best mmos out there isnt enough for them.

SWG didn’t only change battle, they changed
- to Leveling system.
- UI’s.
- New Combat system.
- New Skill system.
- Added a Trait system.
- Introduced classes.
- Introduced Jedi’s to be playable classes from the start.
- Changed some game cores so alot of quests didn’t respond to the new coding and they where never fixed.
People who had worked hard and long to unlock stuff, to level weapon skills, to level other skills, to master their proffession it was all gone.
This was not only ‘just’ a fix to one single part of the game that didn’t work as intended, SWG NGE was a huge re-build on something that did work as intended.

Can you link so I know wth you are talking about?

If it’s about the fix to Zerker being the only thing that matters for Elitist I would say that it is not said anything of breaking anything. They are trying to make Zerkers less favored. I am sure that there will be Zerker builds that are still good and will work how they are meant to be working. In other words, more or less Glass Cannons.

But what where you talking about? Have I missed something?

Seera.5916:

So only having one real viable build per class isn’t broken?

Well, it’s not quite that bad. Admittedly I do play Ranger a lot and outside of SPvP I’m never certain when there even is a single viable Ranger build. It seems to come and go seasonally. That said, I know Ranger isn’t the worst off and there in lays the problem.

Kenaron.3654:

Seera.5916:

So only having one real viable build per class isn’t broken?

Well, it’s not quite that bad. Admittedly I do play Ranger a lot and outside of SPvP I’m never certain when there even is a single viable Ranger build. It seems to come and go seasonally. That said, I know Ranger isn’t the worst off and there in lays the problem.

I’m definitely not saying that the game should be made that every build is just as efficient as every other build for a class.

But the mechanics of the game mean that for most all PvE content, one build rules them all. And it’s the same build for all classes: zerker. It would be nice if there was some variety but still being able to maintain the average speed clear run time.

“Well for class A, you have the choice between builds 1, 2 and 3.” Where builds 1, 2, and 3 are builds that speed clearers would take with them if they didn’t already have a lot using that build.

I believe the problem with Ranger is that most players don’t use the meta build and refuse to believe the meta build when they are told it is better than their build. Or at least enough do to create a negative impression among many speed clearing dungeon runners.

Agreed. Nerf zerker in the way that I have to redo 8 alts with ascended weapons/armor will make me quit the game, no joke.

They should instead buff all other stats to make them more viable so we can CHOOSE (conditions for example).

I do think over builds should be viable in dungeons. everyone knows there shouldn’t be LFG’s that say ZERKERS ONLY LINK GEAR. Bad mechanics.

Charming Rogue.8071:

Agreed. Nerf zerker in the way that I have to redo 8 alts with ascended weapons/armor will make me quit the game, no joke.

They should instead buff all other stats to make them more viable so we can CHOOSE (conditions for example).

Well guess what, ya dun goof’d

Dont fix what isnt broken

I agree, but they need to fix what is broken.

Stacking, Skipping and berserker meta.

Seera.5916:

So only having one real viable build per class isn’t broken?

So ANet shouldn’t try to increase the variety of viable builds in a way that isn’t nerfing the one build?

Viable != optimal. Just because zerker gear is optimal doesn’t mean it’s the only set viable.

Mirsa.1628:

Seera.5916:

So only having one real viable build per class isn’t broken?

So ANet shouldn’t try to increase the variety of viable builds in a way that isn’t nerfing the one build?

Viable != optimal. Just because zerker gear is optimal doesn’t mean it’s the only set viable.

When I say viable, I mean viable for speed runs. Most people in here seemed to get what I meant so I didn’t see the problem or feel the need to edit my post.

you all realize the insanity of what you’re saying right? The basics of it, making it an even playing field.. will never happen. Ever. No game has ever been even. A game created by imperfect humans can only be imperfect.

You also realize that the fact that the traits affect specific stats directly will make some traits highly more valuable than others right? I mean conditions in pve ( and im only talking about pve here) will always take a backseat to stacking crits because bosses are immune more or less to conditions, and if they make the bosses subject to conditions, and someone figures out that over time you can kill a boss faster, people will just switch to conditions right? There will always be a meta build. There will always be a combination that surpasses the others even if by just a bit.

My last point, is that since Im assuming at least one of you can’t beat ac without spending 3hrs in it, that people dont just rush to dungeon bosses and just hack and slash right? they coordinate their abilities taking turns etc, dodging and or mitigating damage while hitting the boss right? and that in this context it makes sense to stack dps over any other trait bc u want to kill something faster and toughness is not gonna do it..

In other words, in order for me to take down something much more powerful than me, I kind of have to kill it faster than it can kill me. I mean sure, I can go fight a lion in medieval armor and try to punch it to death, but eventually he’s gonna bypass my armor and kill me. Or I guess I can take with me a bunch of painkillers and bandaids but Im pretty sure eventually Ill run out of those and the lion will kill me. This is just basic logic… Ill just have to hit it harder and faster than it can hit me.

If anet truly wants it so that there are different builds in regards to armor with not one having an obvious advantage over another, they need to get rid of all amor stats and just give it one basic number to all classes and profs.

P.S. My comparison to the nge to galaxies was exaggerated. Im surprised some of you remember that, which means you played that game, which means you have good taste. So, yes, I over exaggerated. Got called out on that. Good points regarding that. This is such a good game, I dont want it to be ruined.

Seera.5916:

Mirsa.1628:

Seera.5916:

So only having one real viable build per class isn’t broken?

So ANet shouldn’t try to increase the variety of viable builds in a way that isn’t nerfing the one build?

Viable != optimal. Just because zerker gear is optimal doesn’t mean it’s the only set viable.

When I say viable, I mean viable for speed runs. Most people in here seemed to get what I meant so I didn’t see the problem or feel the need to edit my post.

Speed runs imply that you are trying to do the dungeon as fast as it can be done. Doesn’t it make sense that there will only be one viable build? There will always be one build that is best, one that is fastest. No amount of nerfs/buffs will ever make it so that every build will be equal. They may get close with a few, but there will always be a superior option. In this game the superior option is simply to stack as many damage stats/modifiers as possible.

Because why bring anything else when you can just Zerk your way to victory.

http://youtu.be/4DDuIlRsf-0

http://youtu.be/i1WzkNLZXZ0

Seera.5916:

Mirsa.1628:

Seera.5916:

So only having one real viable build per class isn’t broken?

So ANet shouldn’t try to increase the variety of viable builds in a way that isn’t nerfing the one build?

Viable != optimal. Just because zerker gear is optimal doesn’t mean it’s the only set viable.

When I say viable, I mean viable for speed runs. Most people in here seemed to get what I meant so I didn’t see the problem or feel the need to edit my post.

For speed runs, you want the best build and gear. Optimal = best. How can there be more than one best? Seems like you need to brush up on your English definitions.

PTV, cleric, and condition damage sets are viable (aka feasible) for all content, just simply not the best.

Solori.6025:

Because why bring anything else when you can just Zerk your way to victory.

http://youtu.be/4DDuIlRsf-0

http://youtu.be/i1WzkNLZXZ0

Wethospu is a god.

0.0

Mirsa.1628:

Seera.5916:

Mirsa.1628:

Seera.5916:

So only having one real viable build per class isn’t broken?

So ANet shouldn’t try to increase the variety of viable builds in a way that isn’t nerfing the one build?

Viable != optimal. Just because zerker gear is optimal doesn’t mean it’s the only set viable.

When I say viable, I mean viable for speed runs. Most people in here seemed to get what I meant so I didn’t see the problem or feel the need to edit my post.

For speed runs, you want the best build and gear. Optimal = best. How can there be more than one best? Seems like you need to brush up on your English definitions.

PTV, cleric, and condition damage sets are viable (aka feasible) for all content, just simply not the best.

I would assume that most speed runs have a range of times that are done because nothing goes off at exactly the same time every run through. So there is a range and an average time.

Right now there is only one build set that can hit the current range of times and keep the average. Zerker.

If they changed the mechanics around in such a way that 3 builds have roughly the same range of times and the average times within a few seconds of each other, wouldn’t that be nice? And I’m not saying that the current bottom 2 builds have to be the other builds besides zerker to do speed runs, it could be builds #2 and #3.

Then there would be 3 best builds. If you were comparing 5 items that have different looks but 3 of them have the exact same stats and those stats are the best for whatever it is that the item is used for, wouldn’t those three items be considered the best stat wise? Leaving the true best up to the user on which one they feel is the better looking?

In the case of gear & builds, it would be 3 sets of gear and builds that provide the same average overall DPS (and whatever other mechanic they implement) but work differently in how they create that DPS. So the answer to which is the best question is would be which of the three play styles works best for you.

I’m would also say that zerker needs to be one of the builds since that would open a big can of worms if that isn’t good for speed clearing now that ascended has been released with it being soul bound on use and account bound on acquire. And not salvageable for even a fraction of the materials used.

Don’t assume that every speed run with everyone on meta and on their A game clocks in with the exact same total damage dealt or speed done (comparing runs of the same players in the same dungeon path with the same characters and gear and traits and skills used). Because as soon as there is a range of times or a range of damages dealt, then statistics comes into play and things that seem to be not in the range of reasonable speed clearing might just in fact be in that range. Which could happen if ANet changed mechanics. Right now, a speed clear with too many non-zerkers would be an outlier if done legit.

It would be nice if there were more non-zerker builds that could hit in the damage range of zerker builds and hit the range of times speed clears happen in to increase variety of play styles and strategies for speed clearers to not burn them out as quickly.

Seera.5916:

I would assume that most speed runs have a range of times that are done because nothing goes off at exactly the same time every run through. So there is a range and an average time.

Right now there is only one build set that can hit the current range of times and keep the average. Zerker.

If they changed the mechanics around in such a way that 3 builds have roughly the same range of times and the average times within a few seconds of each other, wouldn’t that be nice? And I’m not saying that the current bottom 2 builds have to be the other builds besides zerker to do speed runs, it could be builds #2 and #3.

Then there would be 3 best builds. If you were comparing 5 items that have different looks but 3 of them have the exact same stats and those stats are the best for whatever it is that the item is used for, wouldn’t those three items be considered the best stat wise? Leaving the true best up to the user on which one they feel is the better looking?

In the case of gear & builds, it would be 3 sets of gear and builds that provide the same average overall DPS (and whatever other mechanic they implement) but work differently in how they create that DPS. So the answer to which is the best question is would be which of the three play styles works best for you.

I’m would also say that zerker needs to be one of the builds since that would open a big can of worms if that isn’t good for speed clearing now that ascended has been released with it being soul bound on use and account bound on acquire. And not salvageable for even a fraction of the materials used.

Don’t assume that every speed run with everyone on meta and on their A game clocks in with the exact same total damage dealt or speed done (comparing runs of the same players in the same dungeon path with the same characters and gear and traits and skills used). Because as soon as there is a range of times or a range of damages dealt, then statistics comes into play and things that seem to be not in the range of reasonable speed clearing might just in fact be in that range. Which could happen if ANet changed mechanics. Right now, a speed clear with too many non-zerkers would be an outlier if done legit.

It would be nice if there were more non-zerker builds that could hit in the damage range of zerker builds and hit the range of times speed clears happen in to increase variety of play styles and strategies for speed clearers to not burn them out as quickly.

I’m okay with gear like rampager’s to have similar times. If, by any chance, you want gears like valkyrie to have statistical average time similar to zerkers but with less outliers (because of less risk) the only way is to change the content, traits, weapon skills and utility skills, not the gear.

Seera.5916:

It would be nice if there were more non-zerker builds that could hit in the damage range of zerker builds and hit the range of times speed clears happen in to increase variety of play styles and strategies for speed clearers to not burn them out as quickly.

Only if those gear sets are full on offensive such as rampagers, berserkers and assassins. Gear such as Knights, Valkyrie and Soldiers with partial defensive stats should NEVER have as much DPS as zerkers. If they did, then what would the point of zerks be?

Lol seriously, when I read some comments, I thought about :
“Hey, Blizzard, why T6 was the meta during Burning Crusade WoW ? Why is not T4 as optimal as T6 to clear T6 ? Please fix the meta ! "
That’s exactly the same here. As somebody said, there can only be one “best”, that’s how English works yes, optimal = best.
Does not mean at all that other stuffs are not viable, they’re just not optimal.
I also agree with buffing rampager to be about as powerful as assassin, but others should be a bit behind.
Also, to people who think that everything is faceroll with zerk, just go full zerk and try your luck to see if it’s as faceroll as you claim.
You can try against dredge for example :P

Solori.6025:

Because why bring anything else when you can just Zerk your way to victory.

http://youtu.be/4DDuIlRsf-0

http://youtu.be/i1WzkNLZXZ0

This better be a joke.. you’re really going to use some of the best players in the dungeon community to claim the gear they use is overpowered? Please tell me more about how you could do this by just equipping zerker gear.

Next to that, last time I checked zerker was an armorstat or playstyle, not a build. I personally switch between about 4 (trait) builds. Oh and does assassin’s gear also count as zerker? Because I dont mind switching to that if nobody complains about it.

Sanderinoa.8065:

This better be a joke.. you’re really going to use some of the best players in the dungeon community to claim the gear they use is overpowered? Please tell me more about how you could do this by just equipping zerker gear.

Next to that, last time I checked zerker was an armorstat or playstyle, not a build. I personally switch between about 4 (trait) builds. Oh and does assassin’s gear also count as zerker? Because I dont mind switching to that if nobody complains about it.

At least he didn’t said “Zerg your way to victory”.

Where is your proof OP?

Sanderinoa.8065:

Solori.6025:

Because why bring anything else when you can just Zerk your way to victory.

http://youtu.be/4DDuIlRsf-0

http://youtu.be/i1WzkNLZXZ0

This better be a joke.. you’re really going to use some of the best players in the dungeon community to claim the gear they use is overpowered? Please tell me more about how you could do this by just equipping zerker gear.

Next to that, last time I checked zerker was an armorstat or playstyle, not a build. I personally switch between about 4 (trait) builds. Oh and does assassin’s gear also count as zerker? Because I dont mind switching to that if nobody complains about it.

I would also be mad if no one linked my videos.

But I’m bit curious why he decided to link Skeletal Lich which is a complete faceroll. AC end bosses would have been much more interesting!

I honestly thought he was being sarcastic because I doubt anyone could slap on a zerk set and just do that >_>

Wethospu.6437:

Sanderinoa.8065:

Solori.6025:

Because why bring anything else when you can just Zerk your way to victory.

http://youtu.be/4DDuIlRsf-0

http://youtu.be/i1WzkNLZXZ0

This better be a joke.. you’re really going to use some of the best players in the dungeon community to claim the gear they use is overpowered? Please tell me more about how you could do this by just equipping zerker gear.

Next to that, last time I checked zerker was an armorstat or playstyle, not a build. I personally switch between about 4 (trait) builds. Oh and does assassin’s gear also count as zerker? Because I dont mind switching to that if nobody complains about it.

I would also be mad if no one linked my videos.

But I’m bit curious why he decided to link Skeletal Lich which is a complete faceroll. AC end bosses would have been much more interesting!

I too noticed this, but frankly easier solos seem to be substantially more popular anyways, as you know. Maybe he doesn’t know the lich so doesn’t know it’s easy, or doesnt know the AC bosses so doesn’t know they’re hard.

Oh and that first comment is unnecessary-.- there are plenty times you can accuse me of such things but not this time, I’m rightfully admitting that you are one of our best, and whether or not he is sarcastic, that has nothing to do with whether or not he mentions my running videos for it >.>

So what exactly are you asking for guys?

Condition builds to deal damage similar to power builds? That’s not acceptable. Condition builds are much more sustainable and easier to play than berserker builds. Getting 1, maybe a maximum of 2 stats to optimize your damage as compared to 3 (all of your set’s stats) cannot yield the same results.

I could agree with tweaking condition damage in such a way, that with a (possible) remake on rampager’s gear (to make it Power/Prec/Condition damage) it would make up for the sheer difference in numbers with berserker’s gear, so that condition damage could be a substitute for critical damage, opening up a path to several varied builds. It would be a simple and elegant solution to lack of build variety, but anything more complex than that would not be a matter of balancing builds, but overhauling all of the game’s content.

I really don’t thing zerker is gonna be so nerfed it’s going to destroy for players having spend hundreds and hundreds of gold to make their perfect set. What Anet is trying to do is make the game less discriminating towards anything other than berserker. If I run with rabid, carrion, soldier or knight players will question my choice and in some cases leave/kick. As for the moment it’s not that fun doing dungeons just stacking in a corner while the 4 warriors in group pops ‘’for great justice’’ and then just hundred blades down every mob.

There will always be imbalance and meta build but atm the game almost punishes you when you do pve and don’t have zerker gear. I appreciate Anets attempt to balance everything out more.

Making a statement as ’’don’t fix what isn’t broken’’ is your own entitled opinion but in regards to all other players in gw2 it sounds selfish. And that is just because you have gotten used to it, I can’t blame you for it. But the game is an mmorpg and you should be able to play whatever you want in regards to build or armorstats without taking too much kitten .

As for now, playing with zerker armor is shoved down the throats of many (new)players and immediately invokes a picture of this game not being as ’’free’’ as you would hope it to be.

Stacking is not hard to fix. For example Spider Queen. Make her melee to do 120% of berserker Warrior’s health without target limit. Or alternatively, buff her health a lot. Or alternatively, add few extra Spider Queens.

It’s a joke to face a one enemy which barely does any damage and which people can quite easily solo.

TLDR: The game will be broke no matter what they do. There will always be an optimal way of doing things. Currently by design DPS is the best.

Time to chime in with some very important facts. Overwhelming majority of content in GW2 is to take Mr. Meatbag 1, 2, and 3 from 100% to 0% then open chest. General consensus tells us that time is the best metric to judge dungeon run completion, which makes sense, due to reward being after an HP wall, that is often not threatening with practice.

Why is Damage King?
As long as players can effectively dodge all attacks that would cause a down or death. Zerk will always be the best load out. For example If lets say GL had an attack frequency high enough that even with perfect play in zerk gear you would get hit. some classes may have to spec into defensive stats or die. In fact people might stop taking these classes because their damage potential is nerfed.

Summary: Highest damage in slot item and item/trait combination will always be the best combination. By design you have to kill Mr. Meatbag to get loot. The only way to break DPS meta is to create mechanics that cause the player not to dps race or change the metric for rewards to be not based on time it takes to complete content. They can not do that for many reasons which I will not delve into.

When Will Defense Matter? Bearing in Mind the Above.
-Defense will only matter if a player can not possibly do without it. Eg. unavoidable damage Fractal 4 agony.
-Monster attack frequency exceeds dodges and can frequently down players.
-Some kind of Holy Trinity becomes meta because its the best.
-Dungeon Challenge is a puzzle with no set solution. (item and trait load out may change because utility will trump everything eg, portals mobility, boon duration etc. would help set record times)

Conclusion: stats are broken by design. There will be always a best way of doing something as long as the metric for success can be quantified such as time. If the metric for success is a pass or fail check then the optimal is what can complete the content with most consistency. Each system breaks somewhere find a game which has a system you like.

The only way to bypass all the above to create content that by nature is not repetitive and is therefore so unique and varied that comparing times between other parties is pointless. Such content would incorporate many mechanics based on random weights between mechanics. By doing this completion and rewards would be skill based and the effective value that items provide is less proportionate. Even this has a problem due to the smart ones carrying items for all situations and creating parties with a balance of utilities that can be applied to all situations which then would become the best party.

In the end: Balance between stats is impossible. If you want to make zerk unusable in certain areas, they will break the promise of play how you want. (people tend to misinterpret what that means, it means that all content can be completed with any itemization and party formation appropriate to the content).

I don’t think the problem is necessarily that zerker heavies do a lot of damage. The problem is that they can consistently do this high damage without risk of death.

In most games, a party of glass cannons simply wouldn’t work. They would get rolled before they could do any significant amount of damage. But certain attributes of the GW2 combat environment make an all glass cannon party not only viable, but optimal.

And I think some of those problems are…

1. Zerker heavies can still be fairly tough because of traits and skills despite the fact that they are doing glass cannon level damage.

2. The AI of many encounters is incredibly predictable and exploitable, and fairly cheesy tactics like stacking allow the zerker heavies to do full damage for most of the fight with little concern for their health.

3. The downed state makes it so it’s pretty easy for the group to get someone up even if they go to 0 hp. In other games, someone going down in a fight is a major problem.

If some of these were changed, I don’t think that zerker heavy would remain as the meta.

For example, if the AI was made more unpredictable, people couldn’t just stack and move to the right places to avoid all damage and zerkers would wind up going down. And if zerker heavies weren’t so survivable, they couldn’t tank the damage that they do wind up taking. And since dead characters do no damage, I don’t think zerkers would constantly be at the top of the meta if they died so much.

So if mobs do even more damage inexperienced players will have a harder time finishing dungeons and speedruns will take a little longer. All I see is a good guard tank in the group should do it. This is just speculation from my side. Not sure how solo’s and duo’s will be affected but we will probably see less legit sellers

xsquared.1926:

Seera.5916:

It would be nice if there were more non-zerker builds that could hit in the damage range of zerker builds and hit the range of times speed clears happen in to increase variety of play styles and strategies for speed clearers to not burn them out as quickly.

Only if those gear sets are full on offensive such as rampagers, berserkers and assassins. Gear such as Knights, Valkyrie and Soldiers with partial defensive stats should NEVER have as much DPS as zerkers. If they did, then what would the point of zerks be?

Just as long as there is variety in the builds available, I think it would be an improvement.

I definitely don’t think they should make the more purely defensive or bunker builds on par with the damage builds.

But they could probably change some mechanics around and stats and all that good stuff to get 2 other builds to run at the statistical average speed clear time.

If they could, the price of zerker gear will likely come down. The cost of the other two sets of gear will likely rise, but not to the degree zerker is now (with inflation adjusted for, of course).

Creslin.1758:

I don’t think the problem is necessarily that zerker heavies do a lot of damage. The problem is that they can consistently do this high damage without risk of death.

In most games, a party of glass cannons simply wouldn’t work. They would get rolled before they could do any significant amount of damage. But certain attributes of the GW2 combat environment make an all glass cannon party not only viable, but optimal.

And I think some of those problems are…

1. Zerker heavies can still be fairly tough because of traits and skills despite the fact that they are doing glass cannon level damage.

2. The AI of many encounters is incredibly predictable and exploitable, and fairly cheesy tactics like stacking allow the zerker heavies to do full damage for most of the fight with little concern for their health.

3. The downed state makes it so it’s pretty easy for the group to get someone up even if they go to 0 hp. In other games, someone going down in a fight is a major problem.

If some of these were changed, I don’t think that zerker heavy would remain as the meta.

For example, if the AI was made more unpredictable, people couldn’t just stack and move to the right places to avoid all damage and zerkers would wind up going down. And if zerker heavies weren’t so survivable, they couldn’t tank the damage that they do wind up taking. And since dead characters do no damage, I don’t think zerkers would constantly be at the top of the meta if they died so much.

The problem is if they change the mechanics of how the game works to such a degree that zerkers aren’t in high demand the number of people who would be up in arms would be extremely high.

The reason: ascended gear.

It’s account bound on acquire. It’s soul bound on use. It isn’t salvageable for even a fraction of the materials used to make it.

It takes months to FARM enough stuff to make a set. Not to mention the time gated bolts of damask. Light armor users will be very much up in arms since that class uses only bolts of damask and no metals or woods to supplement so it has the most needed bolts of damask. Or it takes TONS of gold to buy everything. But even then, the recipes require laurels, which might have been depleted while making the last set.

ANet is probably very wary of any move that would topple Zerker as an in demand build at this point. It would anger way too many people at this point.

Seera.5916:

Creslin.1758:

I don’t think the problem is necessarily that zerker heavies do a lot of damage. The problem is that they can consistently do this high damage without risk of death.

In most games, a party of glass cannons simply wouldn’t work. They would get rolled before they could do any significant amount of damage. But certain attributes of the GW2 combat environment make an all glass cannon party not only viable, but optimal.

And I think some of those problems are…

1. Zerker heavies can still be fairly tough because of traits and skills despite the fact that they are doing glass cannon level damage.

2. The AI of many encounters is incredibly predictable and exploitable, and fairly cheesy tactics like stacking allow the zerker heavies to do full damage for most of the fight with little concern for their health.

3. The downed state makes it so it’s pretty easy for the group to get someone up even if they go to 0 hp. In other games, someone going down in a fight is a major problem.

If some of these were changed, I don’t think that zerker heavy would remain as the meta.

For example, if the AI was made more unpredictable, people couldn’t just stack and move to the right places to avoid all damage and zerkers would wind up going down. And if zerker heavies weren’t so survivable, they couldn’t tank the damage that they do wind up taking. And since dead characters do no damage, I don’t think zerkers would constantly be at the top of the meta if they died so much.

The problem is if they change the mechanics of how the game works to such a degree that zerkers aren’t in high demand the number of people who would be up in arms would be extremely high.

The reason: ascended gear.

It’s account bound on acquire. It’s soul bound on use. It isn’t salvageable for even a fraction of the materials used to make it.

It takes months to FARM enough stuff to make a set. Not to mention the time gated bolts of damask. Light armor users will be very much up in arms since that class uses only bolts of damask and no metals or woods to supplement so it has the most needed bolts of damask. Or it takes TONS of gold to buy everything. But even then, the recipes require laurels, which might have been depleted while making the last set.

ANet is probably very wary of any move that would topple Zerker as an in demand build at this point. It would anger way too many people at this point.

You bring up valid points, but I don’t think that players investiture of time is a good reason to completely give up on balancing the game.

First, I see the fact that berserker gear seems to be the bar-none optimal choice for much of the game’s PvE content as a problem. It completely nullifies a huge amount of variety and forces people down one path. In a game that should be all about variety, different choices, and different builds…that doesn’t seem like a good thing.

Second, I don’t think anyone wants to see ANet nerf berserker gear to the point that it sucks. We just want OTHER builds to be viable/needed for dungeons to make it more interesting.

And third, I think that history has shown that ANet is now averse to nerfing something that people invested a lot of time in to the point where it isn’t viable as compared to the other classes. Case and point, I play and elementalist lol. If ANet is willing to repeatedly nerf the crap out of an entire class…I don’t think that your specific armor type is safe.

But Berserker IS broken! Fact is, it overshadows every other set in the game. (Though, if you ask me, the issue is other sets are underpowered…)

I just hope ANET is gentle to those with full-ascended berserker.

Your build is your weapons, utility skills and your traits.

Your gear is simply a reflection of how much damage you anticipate taking during whatever content you’re running.

Therefore Zerker gear does not “nullify” any “variety” or any “builds.” Builds are independent of gear, you can run a dps build in Soldier’s gear or a support build in Zerker gear.

If Zerker is optimal for PVE content that is because of players anticipating that they will not take significant damage during the PVE content and not some feature of Zerker.

#FixRampager2014

Creslin.1758:

Seera.5916:

Creslin.1758:

I don’t think the problem is necessarily that zerker heavies do a lot of damage. The problem is that they can consistently do this high damage without risk of death.

In most games, a party of glass cannons simply wouldn’t work. They would get rolled before they could do any significant amount of damage. But certain attributes of the GW2 combat environment make an all glass cannon party not only viable, but optimal.

And I think some of those problems are…

1. Zerker heavies can still be fairly tough because of traits and skills despite the fact that they are doing glass cannon level damage.

2. The AI of many encounters is incredibly predictable and exploitable, and fairly cheesy tactics like stacking allow the zerker heavies to do full damage for most of the fight with little concern for their health.

3. The downed state makes it so it’s pretty easy for the group to get someone up even if they go to 0 hp. In other games, someone going down in a fight is a major problem.

If some of these were changed, I don’t think that zerker heavy would remain as the meta.

For example, if the AI was made more unpredictable, people couldn’t just stack and move to the right places to avoid all damage and zerkers would wind up going down. And if zerker heavies weren’t so survivable, they couldn’t tank the damage that they do wind up taking. And since dead characters do no damage, I don’t think zerkers would constantly be at the top of the meta if they died so much.

The problem is if they change the mechanics of how the game works to such a degree that zerkers aren’t in high demand the number of people who would be up in arms would be extremely high.

The reason: ascended gear.

It’s account bound on acquire. It’s soul bound on use. It isn’t salvageable for even a fraction of the materials used to make it.

It takes months to FARM enough stuff to make a set. Not to mention the time gated bolts of damask. Light armor users will be very much up in arms since that class uses only bolts of damask and no metals or woods to supplement so it has the most needed bolts of damask. Or it takes TONS of gold to buy everything. But even then, the recipes require laurels, which might have been depleted while making the last set.

ANet is probably very wary of any move that would topple Zerker as an in demand build at this point. It would anger way too many people at this point.

You bring up valid points, but I don’t think that players investiture of time is a good reason to completely give up on balancing the game.

First, I see the fact that berserker gear seems to be the bar-none optimal choice for much of the game’s PvE content as a problem. It completely nullifies a huge amount of variety and forces people down one path. In a game that should be all about variety, different choices, and different builds…that doesn’t seem like a good thing.

Second, I don’t think anyone wants to see ANet nerf berserker gear to the point that it sucks. We just want OTHER builds to be viable/needed for dungeons to make it more interesting.

And third, I think that history has shown that ANet is now averse to nerfing something that people invested a lot of time in to the point where it isn’t viable as compared to the other classes. Case and point, I play and elementalist lol. If ANet is willing to repeatedly nerf the crap out of an entire class…I don’t think that your specific armor type is safe.

Oh, I totally agree. I main an elementalist as well.

And while time invested should not be the sole reason for changing something or not, it would likely need to be a factor in the timing of the changes.

If they release a change that nerfs zerker to not be the best in the game tomorrow, then people will be carrying pitchforks crying foul given the ascended armor.

But if they release that change say 9-12 months from now or longer, the outcry might not be as bad. People will have recouped their money, gotten over any burnout on farming the mats, regained laurels needed for the recipes, etc.

And I would much rather see a buff of the other builds over a nerf on zerker.

The only way they could stop everyone from running berserker would be to add a new stat combo that was better than berserker (somehow), but that would be almost equivalent to adding a new gear tier altogether. The damage is done.

Impossible to deny my logic. Furthermore, when ppl say zerker is the best build in the game… c’mon…. zerker is crap in pvp and wvw.

Nandor The Stampede.1593:

Impossible to deny my logic. Furthermore, when ppl say zerker is the best build in the game… c’mon…. zerker is crap in pvp and wvw.

And you do realize that you’re posting in the dungeon sub-forum and the best gear for dungeons is zerker, right?

Best build varies from area to area. This is the dungeon forum, if area is not specified, you should assume for dungeons.

Seera.5916:

Creslin.1758:

….

Oh, I totally agree. I main an elementalist as well.

And while time invested should not be the sole reason for changing something or not, it would likely need to be a factor in the timing of the changes.

If they release a change that nerfs zerker to not be the best in the game tomorrow, then people will be carrying pitchforks crying foul given the ascended armor.

But if they release that change say 9-12 months from now or longer, the outcry might not be as bad. People will have recouped their money, gotten over any burnout on farming the mats, regained laurels needed for the recipes, etc.

And I would much rather see a buff of the other builds over a nerf on zerker.

Well really, it’s all relative. Everyone wants to be the best, so a buff to other builds is essentially a nerf to zerker because it reduces its effectives.

Anyway, ideally I would like for several different builds to have a viable place in a dungeon. GW2 has been advertised to have a “trinity” of damage, control and support. The problem is that right now, damage is the only viable option.

There is no need for control and support builds because of a combination of damage builds having adequate control and/or support, and most of the damage in dungeons being completely avoidable or highly mitigated with knowledge of how to exploit the AI.

When I talk about “nerfing zerker” I don’t mean making the armor less valuable as top DPS. What I mean is changing the dungeons so that support and control are actually valuable for dungeons as well.

No matter what, zerker will be top DPS, and that’s fine. But I would like there to be a place for control and support too…I feel like a party of all glass cannons shouldn’t be able to just run through a dungeon with no fear of death.

-Edit

Just wanted to add that one way to change the zerker meta would be to add highly randomized, procedurally generated, events to dungeons that could just happen and are completely unpredicable.

Like maybe while everyone is stacking during the AC spider queen fight, a party of hostile grave robbers attacks! All of a sudden people are taking damage they didn’t expect, and glass cannons are going down hard.

The only reason all glass cannons works is because the dungeons are so predictable. When undpredictable things happen you need support and control to keep everyone up long enough to get out of trouble.

Anyway, the key to all this is that these events would HAVE to be VERY random. Not like scripted dynamic events. You should not know ahead of time where the event is going to happen, how bad it’s going to be, or exactly what it is no matter how many times you run a dungeon.

And to compensate for the increased difficulty, these events could give good rewards as well. I think it would make dungeons much more exciting, you would never know when all of a sudden all your plans are going to go to kitten.

I just want to address something from your first paragraph creslin…

I don’t think anyone here considers a buff to other stat types a nerf to berserker. If the stats become equally viable, then folks will be happy (it’s not like people want to be like “oh yeah I’m berserker and I’m x% better and I’ll be mad if other stats are equal”)

A buff to other stats has no effect on berserker. If they get buffed to be beyond that of berserker, friggan great! We can either run things at our previous berserker speed or be even quicker, which is cool. If they’re equal, nothing has changed, no one can be mad.

LittleLepton.8915:

I just want to address something from your first paragraph creslin…

I don’t think anyone here considers a buff to other stat types a nerf to berserker. If the stats become equally viable, then folks will be happy (it’s not like people want to be like “oh yeah I’m berserker and I’m x% better and I’ll be mad if other stats are equal”)

A buff to other stats has no effect on berserker. If they get buffed to be beyond that of berserker, friggan great! We can either run things at our previous berserker speed or be even quicker, which is cool. If they’re equal, nothing has changed, no one can be mad.

Well I’m not really talking about a change to stats…more of a change to the situation that makes a 100% glass cannon group optimal.

And I do actually think that people measure something based on its relative worth compared to similar things.

Just imagine that if stats were changed so that PVT gear gets a major crit damage % increase and all of a sudden did much better damage than berserkers. It would essentialyl be nerfing berserkers by making its peer better.

Creslin, it still would not affect our gameplay as it stands. It just means we could trust more pugs.

I’m fine with berserker/assassin gear not being the best for pve anymore….as long as the other “better” or as good sets have no defensive stats aswell AND if we get a choice to pick stats just like when they removed Magic Find.

For those people wanting high toughness bosses, there is already lv81/82 bosses in dungeons/fractals that take 20-40% less damage by default from direct attacks.

Berserker(3 offensive stats, 916 toughness+vitality) warrior giganticus lupicus solo world record = ~4:40 minutes

Rabid warrior(2 offensive stats, 1 defensive=toughness, around 2000 toughness and around 1000 vit i think) = ~6:20 minutes

Lv82 legendary boss has about 1,45 million HP.

Sounds about right, no?

Stop asking for your soldier, dire, settler etc. sets to do the same damage as a set with 3 offensive stats, people. THAT is what makes no sense.

#FixRampager2014

A few things:

1. Berserkerarmor is not an insta win. If you have not set foot outside AC or world events and you use DnT youtube videos as proof that ‘zerk’ is very unfair, please think again. A McLaren is a great performance vehicle but don’t think you’ll win F1 just by getting behind the wheel. Try ‘zerking’ without knowing the basics of the game, and find yourself on the floor more often than not.

2. Berserker is not broken. It is indeed optimal for PvE given understanding of game mechanics, experience in damage evasion and mitigation, and solid team composition. The McLaren is not a broken vehicle because it out performs your WRX on the track. That WRX competes in different venues. In GW2, ‘zerk’ gear may be king in PvE but don’t forget that WvW and sPvP are the other 2/3 of the game. Just because you wanted to bring your WRX to the F1 track doesn’t mean you are entitled to stand on equal footing with the vehicles that compete there. They sure as heck are not entitled to that right if they compete in your venues.

3. Other stats could use a boost. Someone here had a great point about making Toughness scale damage put out by retaliation. Someone else mentioned scaling HP better and increasing active benefits through defensive stats. All ideas worth considering.

4. The vitriol needs to stop. I’ve said it elsewhere and will say it again. Speed clears and fun are not mutually exclusive. Many folks who speed clear dungeons do it because they enjoy that style of gameplay. These are folks with careers, school, children, etc… The groups I have had the pleasure of running with are all a blast to play with and about as ‘casual’ in attitude as it gets. We all play together and have learned to synergize with another. Saying you are a casual player is no excuse to force players who enjoy putting out high numbers and clearing in low times to have to spend more padded time behind a screen to achieve the same objective. A real ‘casual’ player logs on when they can between their jobs. They enjoy the time they have in whatever way they want.

5. While a buff to some stats is worth considering (with WvW taken heavily into consideration as well), if you are claiming “z3rk0r = f4cer0ll” and have not stepped foot outside the Zerg, AC, CoF you are not qualified to voice such a hostile opinion. Again, just because some folks can do it, doesn’t mean you can. There is a learning curve. That’s part of why a lot of folks don’t do it as well.

6. Remember, they QQ will not end here. Again, ‘zerk does not equal good’. Good players are good for a multitude of reasons. Many of them settled on Berserker armor because it allows them to play in an optimal fashion. They will do the same thing regardless of the meta. No changes will make bad players good.

So, if you’re being reasonable and saying there is a problem with the PvE structure that allows this to happen, I agree with you. Hopefully it is addressed and we see a lot more (traits hopefully) builds and setups that approach optimal or become a part of the meta. No reason condi folks should be left out in the cold like this.

However if you’re QQing that zerkers are unfair because you are unable to play them well or are getting left out of speed clear parties despite rolling unfavorable gear, then realize your situation will not change even if the meta does.