Guild Wars 2

95%+ of fractals players have been complaining about this for a year. Most are to the point where they don’t play FotM anymore because of this one terrible fractal.

Whoever is the person making the decision to leave it should be absolutely ashamed. They are ruining an entire game mode. Don’t have time to fix it now? Fine! But for crying out loud, take it out until you do get time.

And I say ashamed not just because players are annoyed…but because many devs put a lot of good work into this dungeon and this one terrible, terrible blight ruins it completely. It really sucks to put hard work into a project and have it ruined by someone else’s terrible decisions.

Fix it. Remove it. Nobody cares anymore. Just get it out of FotM. Please.

Mystic.5934:

zMajc.4659:

Do any devs actually play fractals above lvl 10?

At igher levels Dredge fractal is so long compared to other fractals that it’s better to just exit and start fractals from the start that go troug all the pain of doing it.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8xrv7IFopOqVGRpQ1JmMnZuaWs/edit?pli=1
TLDR: It is faster to restart fractals than play dredge fractal only if dredge takes more than ~2.3 times the time of the other possibilities. If the others take you 30 min, dredge would need to take 69+ minutes to merit restarting the run.

You forgot the chance of getting dredge again.

Ayrilana.1396:

Mystic.5934:

zMajc.4659:

Do any devs actually play fractals above lvl 10?

At igher levels Dredge fractal is so long compared to other fractals that it’s better to just exit and start fractals from the start that go troug all the pain of doing it.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8xrv7IFopOqVGRpQ1JmMnZuaWs/edit?pli=1
TLDR: It is faster to restart fractals than play dredge fractal only if dredge takes more than ~2.3 times the time of the other possibilities. If the others take you 30 min, dredge would need to take 69+ minutes to merit restarting the run.

You forgot the chance of getting dredge again.

No, that’s taken into account by the calculations above.

maxinion.8396:

Ayrilana.1396:

Mystic.5934:

zMajc.4659:

Do any devs actually play fractals above lvl 10?

At igher levels Dredge fractal is so long compared to other fractals that it’s better to just exit and start fractals from the start that go troug all the pain of doing it.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8xrv7IFopOqVGRpQ1JmMnZuaWs/edit?pli=1
TLDR: It is faster to restart fractals than play dredge fractal only if dredge takes more than ~2.3 times the time of the other possibilities. If the others take you 30 min, dredge would need to take 69+ minutes to merit restarting the run.

You forgot the chance of getting dredge again.

No, that’s taken into account by the calculations above.

I forgot to mention that players have a finite amount of time to play. If they rolled and got dredge again, more time was just wasted. I do agree that it could be quicker assuming you don’t get dredge again. The level of fractal you’re doing also matter as lower levels can simply be face rolled. Your party make up, skill, and synergy also has an impact which can’t easily be quantifiable.

If a group takes over an hour to do the fractal, I seriously question what it is exactly that they’re doing to make it take that long. I’m pretty sure DnT and rT can do it in about 30 minutes (or less) and I don’t see why the average pug can’t do it in 45 min.

Honestly, i think it’s just a matter of the fractal being one event too long. The individual events are interesting and challenging.

I’d like to see it brought down from:
Door>Bomb/turret>Rabs>Boss

to

Door>Bomb/Turret/Rabs>Boss

Basically, in stead of always doing rabs, you either get rabs, the bomb, or the turret, then go on to the boss. I think this owuld balance it out time-wise while keeping the most unique parts of it intact.

The door puzzle has never been impossible, people just got used to doing it the exploited way. The fact of the matter is that this, like a lot of content that is being added/changed requires some diversity in the party. Anet is (rightly so) moving away from an all-DPS mentality, and this was one of the first instances of content done in such a way that bringing a more balanced party is important for success, while not requiring specific classes to fill those roles.

Trying to keep a game intact where you can just DPS through everything with minimal effort is a losing proposition. Dredge is too long, but it isn’t too hard, a lot of people are just trying to fit a square peg in to a round hole be assuming that everything in the game can be done with a pure DPS group.

This is Anet’s fault for designing poor content and gear systems that rewarded doing just that, not the fault of the players for taking advantage. However, Anet is making the right moves by balancing away from that pure DPS meta. Asking dredge to be simply made more friendly to the existing broken meta is moving backward.

I pray while in the transition screen every time not to get the dredge map. It is not a difficult map but an annoying map. The bomb part is just stupid.

Ayrilana.1396:

I forgot to mention that players have a finite amount of time to play. If they rolled and got dredge again, more time was just wasted. I do agree that it could be quicker assuming you don’t get dredge again. The level of fractal you’re doing also matter as lower levels can simply be face rolled. Your party make up, skill, and synergy also has an impact which can’t easily be quantifiable.

If a group takes over an hour to do the fractal, I seriously question what it is exactly that they’re doing to make it take that long. I’m pretty sure DnT and rT can do it in about 30 minutes (or less) and I don’t see why the average pug can’t do it in 45 min.

So you can see why most players should not restart fractals. :P
also, those calculations DO take into account the chance of getting dredge again (I didn’t make these calculations). “Thus there is a one in five chance that dredge has a one in four chance of arising and a four in five chance that dredge has a one in five chance of arising = [you get dredge 21 times out of 100 runs]”

KingZ.2314:

I pray while in the transition screen every time not to get the dredge map. It is not a difficult map but an annoying map. The bomb part is just stupid.

I’d almost want to have a list presented to us in the event menu for which fractals are coming up – or at least the next one. I say ‘almost’ because there will definitely be people who will qq on the second fractal as soon as they see dredge is the 3rd. Unfortunately, the math probably backs them up as that method being shorter. (instead of 2.3 times as long, dredge would probably only need to be ~1.5 times as long to merit restarting = 30 min vs. 45 min)

Mystic.5934:

Ayrilana.1396:

I forgot to mention that players have a finite amount of time to play. If they rolled and got dredge again, more time was just wasted. I do agree that it could be quicker assuming you don’t get dredge again. The level of fractal you’re doing also matter as lower levels can simply be face rolled. Your party make up, skill, and synergy also has an impact which can’t easily be quantifiable.

If a group takes over an hour to do the fractal, I seriously question what it is exactly that they’re doing to make it take that long. I’m pretty sure DnT and rT can do it in about 30 minutes (or less) and I don’t see why the average pug can’t do it in 45 min.

So you can see why most players should not restart fractals. :P
also, those calculations DO take into account the chance of getting dredge again (I didn’t make these calculations). “Thus there is a one in five chance that dredge has a one in four chance of arising and a four in five chance that dredge has a one in five chance of arising = [you get dredge 21 times out of 100 runs]”

Yes but people still have a finite amount of time to play. Not many would want to risk getting dredge again even if the probability is 21%. That’s assuming the calculations are correct which i haven’t really looked at. The calculations are based on results over the ling run so you could very well get dredge back to back sometimes. Also, there’s the chance to roll again when you could get Cliffside as your second fractal along with dredge.

I’m not sure what your point is. The conclusions of the calculation is that it’s never best to re-roll, because on average it will take longer. Everything you bring up is calculated by the paper and contributes to re-roll length.

maxinion.8396:

I’m not sure what your point is. The conclusions of the calculation is that it’s never best to re-roll, because on average it will take longer. Everything you bring up is calculated by the paper and contributes to re-roll length.

No.

Ayrilana.1396:

maxinion.8396:

I’m not sure what your point is. The conclusions of the calculation is that it’s never best to re-roll, because on average it will take longer. Everything you bring up is calculated by the paper and contributes to re-roll length.

No.

This is literally the difference between strategy 2 and 3 in the paper. Strategy 2 resets every time they hit dredge, and calculates the expected time from the infinite series which this generates (since you can get dredge again. This is explicitly dealt with on pages 3-4). Strategy 3 allows for only n resets, and studies this for general n. So you can use their results to just allow for n = 1 (one reset), and compare the time to a full run through without resets and a full run with always reset.

No matter what, running through without resetting is the fastest.

Anywho, it seems we’re just talking past each other, so I’m going to stop derailing the thread.

Mystic.5934:

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8xrv7IFopOqVGRpQ1JmMnZuaWs/edit?pli=1
TLDR: It is faster to restart fractals than play dredge fractal only if dredge takes more than ~2.3 times the time of the other possibilities. If the others take you 30 min, dredge would need to take 69+ minutes to merit restarting the run.

This was an excellent read and I very much enjoyed it!

The only thing that I would have added is boundary situations that might appear that a fractal restart is merited. For example running Swamp, Snowblind and Volcanic. Given a decent experienced group, it is not uncommon to run these in 15 to 20min each. If these could be run in those times and in that order then this certainly would appear to break the model.

But it doesnt. In order for this to go against your model, a group would have to guarantee that the next restart would be those fractals in that order. And seeing that the odds of getting those are (1/5)*(1/5)=(1/25)=0.04 chance, it would be silly to risk restarting your fractal for that 4% or 8% chance (that is if you can include Aetherblade in your less that fifteen min completion list). And if you did restart, it would be wise to consider the time it would take to re-roll and such.

Well I’m basing everything on his actual post in this thread rather than the article as I know the majority of people will not read it. In his post he stated that if the dredge fractal will take 69 min or more, then you should reset. Many players will argue that it will take longer than that.

I’m personally against the notion of resetting hoping to get a better fractal. The risk of getting dredge again is a bit high to be worth doing just to save yourself an extra 10-20 minutes (based on the average time people who are complains says it takes them).

I’m also choosing to completely avoid the formulas and anything that complex as I know better based in what I had to deal with explaining the probability of a certain fractal coming up in a previous thread. The validity of the calculations/formulas are also not important in the sense that it’s not the central point in my argument.

Maybe my argument ironically got lost as I’ve been trying to keep things simple and understandable.

Seriously id like to see a DEV livestream fotm40+ dredge.
The increase spawn rate on the clown car is just abnormal and annoying.
The switchs you have to do and the gate at the end with vets hitting hard at high lvls is near impossible unless u have a cordinated FOTM group.

Dredge map is so unbalanced compared to the other maps its really sad.

To me even if it takes longer to restart and complete another set ,it’s still better than having to endure the dredge fractal. It’s just not fun at all to me.

Auesis.7301:

Fotm offers:

1) Pathetic guaranteed rewards (I can make 5x the gold of a 49 run, Dredge included, just by running a casual AC)
2) Pathetic RNG on new reward systems (haven’t seen a single Fractal weapon since the Fractured patch. At least I got 12 Warhorns and 4 Torches before.)
3) Terrible scaling and dungeon design, biggest culprit being Dredge. Instead of fixing the actual dungeon and making it any measure of fun, they fix workarounds and extend the length even more, completely blind to the actual problems.

Thanks, I’ll stick to normal dungeons. I’ll have Frostfang and Bolt by the time I get a Fractal Axe and Sword. Just for the record, I’ve been trying for either of those, every single day on 30s and 40s, FOR OVER AN ENTIRE YEAR.

THIS so much! I made a huge mistake going for fractal weapons. i Shouldve went for a legendary i would have it by now >.> .. but i alrdy spent a bunch of time and gold for fractals. So its hard to quit now…. IMO they just need to release the fractal weapon boxes like they said they would and up the gold reward to at least 3g at lvl 50(5g if u get dredge lol). Fractals is an obvious gold sink gambling game. I hate gambling…u mostly lose and their is no sense of progression once u reach lvl 50.

As for dredge they should just cut out the entire first part since everyone skips it anyway. Also wen u get the door u have to use bombs on, it can be pretty ridiculous how fast the dredge grab ur bombs. Idk if its a glitch or something but on occasion it takes several tries to get 1 bomb off. Sometimes it doesnt take so long tho :s

just remove your armor plant the bomb and die asap.
Or arrive stealthed to the door and plant it and run/take portal.

This is the next thing that will be patched in dredge fractal.

BTW i think you can thank a couple of famous dungeon players that every time i said how annoying dredge was, replied “L2P i can do it naked”……(its not i can t do the fractal even now….its just too long).

P.S. Another things that helps this fractal to be a huge annoyance is iwarden’s bug….

Before it at least a mesmer could bring some reflect uptime :|

I’m eagerly waiting for the change that makes you revealed when picking the bombs. Players would finally have to do it normally.

Do you think a team of tanks and healers could kill the dredge fast enough?

to do it normally they have to make dredges see through invisibility or just change the trigger to bomb steal….so they aim for the bomb whatever happens.

I agree with most of the above.
I run fractals 49 on daily basis, and getting the dredge on this particular level can (even with an experienced group) increase the length of your entire run from around 75-90 mins to a good 150 minutes.
- The cage is too hard without having a fully coordinated group with exactly the right stats and approach. (And even with I’d like to see the devs run this without fail)
- Especially the bomb run is poorly done. (Endless mobs)
- The ‘clown car’ is (however good loot) unnecessarily time consuming.
- The boss however, is fine.
I’d suggest getting rid of the endless mobs, or taking away some parts entirely. It is shocking to me anet is simply fixing exploits, without actually wondering WHY players have the need to exploit. Difficulty/length wise this fractal is in no league with the others you can possibly get in the 3rd level. (Aetherblade, Volcanic, Thaumanova Reactor, or evenCliffside) This makes the time spent/reward (which is already poor! Running 49 should absolutely be worth more than a 1g 40s reward) completely out of proportion. Oh, and in my 400 runs so far I’ve had ONE fractal weapon. ONE.

Another fact I find shocking is that this whole dungeon thread isn’t really getting ANY love from the devs. I know the devs are reading this, and am very much wondering why this ‘problem’ is not being acknowledged.

Can you please fix the dredge fractal! I love fractals but the only thing keeping me (and the people I play with) to enjoy it and want to progress, is the stupid dredge fractal! So many good ideas to make it more enjoyable have been posted so no need for me to do that also.

But I want to hear from the developers that they acknowledge the issue and will attend to it. If they don’t they should let us know so we can stop crying and focus our attention elswhere because then Fractals will never be what it could… :-(

TwilightStorm.7159:

- The cage is too hard without having a fully coordinated group with exactly the right stats and approach. (And even with I’d like to see the devs run this without fail)

You don’t need a full coordinated group. Just clear one side and have someone kite the rest.

TwilightStorm.7159:

— Especially the bomb run is poorly done. (Endless mobs)

Only 5 of the dredge spawn infinitely. The bomb run is not poorly done. It’s just that people fail to learn the mechanic and instead choose the “easier” way and rush the door with bombs or some variation of that.

quick example:
no reset at dredge) 30 min + 30 min + 60 min = 120 min
reset at dredge) 30 min + 30 min + (30 min + 30 min + 30 min) = 150 min
this is assuming 30 min for every non-dredge fractal and 60 min for every dredge fractal. your numbers may vary. It’s also assuming best-case scenario of you not getting dredge on the reset.
If you think you’re pro and can do all non-dredge fractals in 20 min but dredge takes 60:
no reset at dredge) 20 min + 20 min + 60 min = 100 min
reset at dredge) 20 min + 20 min + (20 min + 20 min + 20 min) = 100 min

Mystic.5934:

quick example:
no reset at dredge) 30 min + 30 min + 60 min = 120 min
reset at dredge) 30 min + 30 min + (30 min + 30 min + 30 min) = 150 min
this is assuming 30 min for every non-dredge fractal and 60 min for every dredge fractal. your numbers may vary. It’s also assuming best-case scenario of you not getting dredge on the reset.
If you think you’re pro and can do all non-dredge fractals in 20 min but dredge takes 60:
no reset at dredge) 20 min + 20 min + 60 min = 100 min
reset at dredge) 20 min + 20 min + (20 min + 20 min + 20 min) = 100 min

Those numbers seem right with an “optimal group” that knows what they’re doing.
If you don’t have an optimal group or run with pugs as I often do, dredge is a nightmare and not worth the hassle of running.

Why are you doing groups with people at high level fractals that do not know what they’re doing? I’d assume by that level that they would have a clue. I haven’t done fractals in quite some time but I don’t remember it being that bad the higher in level that you got. Of course things could have changed and terrible players got carried to the higher levels.

Ayrilana, since you just stated you haven’t done fractals in a while, I can very much imagine your reply to what I said about the dredge fractal. Note that this fractal has recently undergone several ‘bug fixes’ (to make it even longer, added more dredge, you can no longer die on the button, ‘shortcuts’ fixed etc.), and it may not be as easy as you remember it to be.

You say ‘simply’ have 1 member kite all the dredge around while one activates the console. (I am well aware you can clear one side of the cage) Well, yes, you make it sound very simple, but this one member will very likely not succeed in kiting the remaining 6-10 dredge (and a vet) around. What you said about the bomb run – yes, there are easy ways to do it. This all doesn’t nullify the fact it is wáy longer and harder compared to the other fractals you can get on the 3rd map.

Since Fractured. I haven’t really touched it since and the only change since then was fixing the exploit which I never used. Watch Obal’s video if you want to see how to do it. I haven’t seen his video recently but I believe he’s a zerker guardian on it doing the kiting. Kiting is not that difficult to do.

But Ayrilana, so far I’ve seen you post in every dredge thread here. Are you perhaps an undercover dev? It’s pretty obvious to me, since the vast majority of the players posting here (and some I know to be very experienced fractal runners) acknowledge the ‘problems’ concerning this fractal, that here is something wrong with this fractal. Yet you are one of the few that are defending it – nothing wrong with that. There are possibly lots of ways to do it slightly faster, but that doesn’t take away the fact that if you compare this fractal to the other it’s WAY too long and simply NOT fun.
The average time to finish the first (usually swamp) fractal is 10-15 min, 2nd is mostly 20-25, and third (except dredge, and cliff which will take about 30) is also pretty doable in 20-25. The bosses are 10-15. (these times are based on an experienced group running level 49.)
Now you look me in the eye and tell me, that running a dredge on level 49 which takes AT LEAST 60 minutes is completely within proportion if you look at the rewards.

Ayrilana.1396:

Since Fractured. I haven’t really touched it since and the only change since then was fixing the exploit which I never used.

Er no, that was not the only change. You’ve just been told about other changes: can no longer die on the buttons as you’ll get moved off them when you do, plus adding even more respawning dredge to the bomb run.

It’s not helpful to be posting l2play comments when you’re not informed yourself.

Lothirieth.3408:

Ayrilana.1396:

Since Fractured. I haven’t really touched it since and the only change since then was fixing the exploit which I never used.

Er no, that was not the only change. You’ve just been told about other changes: can no longer die on the buttons as you’ll get moved off them when you do, plus adding even more respawning dredge to the bomb run.

It’s not helpful to be posting l2play comments when you’re not informed yourself.

Perhaps you should be more informed. Those changes occurred during the Fractured living story.

Ayrilana.1396:

Lothirieth.3408:

Ayrilana.1396:

Since Fractured. I haven’t really touched it since and the only change since then was fixing the exploit which I never used.

Er no, that was not the only change. You’ve just been told about other changes: can no longer die on the buttons as you’ll get moved off them when you do, plus adding even more respawning dredge to the bomb run.

It’s not helpful to be posting l2play comments when you’re not informed yourself.

Perhaps you should be more informed. Those changes occurred during the Fractured living story.

Then why did you say the only change was the exploit one?

TwilightStorm.7159:

But Ayrilana, so far I’ve seen you post in every dredge thread here. Are you perhaps an undercover dev? It’s pretty obvious to me, since the vast majority of the players posting here (and some I know to be very experienced fractal runners) acknowledge the ‘problems’ concerning this fractal, that here is something wrong with this fractal. Yet you are one of the few that are defending it – nothing wrong with that. There are possibly lots of ways to do it slightly faster, but that doesn’t take away the fact that if you compare this fractal to the other it’s WAY too long and simply NOT fun.
The average time to finish the first (usually swamp) fractal is 10-15 min, 2nd is mostly 20-25, and third (except dredge, and cliff which will take about 30) is also pretty doable in 20-25. The bosses are 10-15. (these times are based on an experienced group running level 49.)
Now you look me in the eye and tell me, that running a dredge on level 49 which takes AT LEAST 60 minutes is completely within proportion if you look at the rewards.

I defend the fractal because I hate it when stuff gets nerfed. I personally find nothing wrong with the fractal except for the dredge car which is pretty much 10 minutes of auto attacking.

The only issues that I see continually brought is the cage room at the beginning and the bomb path. I see people who still think they should be able to stand on the panel and people to withstand the dredge attacks. People also expect to be ale to dash at the door and have all of the bombs go off.

People rely so much on online guides that any sense of learning, adapting, and finding new strategies is lost. There are mechanics that I have mentioned numerous times, and have even linked a video on a group using, that makes things a lot easier.

I will not support nerfing something because people choose to do it in a way that makes it more difficult and time consuming.

Lothirieth.3408:

Ayrilana.1396:

Lothirieth.3408:

Ayrilana.1396:

Since Fractured. I haven’t really touched it since and the only change since then was fixing the exploit which I never used.

Er no, that was not the only change. You’ve just been told about other changes: can no longer die on the buttons as you’ll get moved off them when you do, plus adding even more respawning dredge to the bomb run.

It’s not helpful to be posting l2play comments when you’re not informed yourself.

Perhaps you should be more informed. Those changes occurred during the Fractured living story.

Then why did you say the only change was the exploit one?

Fractured update brought the majority of the changes. I stopped playing fractals after the fractured living story completed. The only change since then was the recent one with the exploit fixed. I do remember playing many times with the new dredge at the beginning.

Dredge fractals is just too long its not hard. Biggest problems are clown car and the fact that dredge spawns to fast in the 1st platform(puzzle). Bombing room is not bad its just time consuming.
ps: not every class has reflection skills

There are some classes worth taking for high level fractals.

I personally feel these should take the following amount of time to complete under ideal conditions:

• Floor panel / gate challenge -> 5 min
• Bomb/turret path -> 10 min
• Dredge mini-boss (no car) -> 5 min
• Final boss -> 5-10 min

I did not count the obligatory 10 minutes to do the dredge car as I feel it should either be removed or creatively incorporated as a mechanic for the mini-boss fight. Various factors would impact the actual time.

I got NONE in my 375 runs. The reward is not even close to the effort. And guess how many gold we got in the daily chest? 1.2 g.
AC p3 offers 1.5g.

TwilightStorm.7159:

I agree with most of the above.
I run fractals 49 on daily basis, and getting the dredge on this particular level can (even with an experienced group) increase the length of your entire run from around 75-90 mins to a good 150 minutes.
- The cage is too hard without having a fully coordinated group with exactly the right stats and approach. (And even with I’d like to see the devs run this without fail)
- Especially the bomb run is poorly done. (Endless mobs)
- The ‘clown car’ is (however good loot) unnecessarily time consuming.
- The boss however, is fine.
I’d suggest getting rid of the endless mobs, or taking away some parts entirely. It is shocking to me anet is simply fixing exploits, without actually wondering WHY players have the need to exploit. Difficulty/length wise this fractal is in no league with the others you can possibly get in the 3rd level. (Aetherblade, Volcanic, Thaumanova Reactor, or evenCliffside) This makes the time spent/reward (which is already poor! Running 49 should absolutely be worth more than a 1g 40s reward) completely out of proportion. Oh, and in my 400 runs so far I’ve had ONE fractal weapon. ONE.

Another fact I find shocking is that this whole dungeon thread isn’t really getting ANY love from the devs. I know the devs are reading this, and am very much wondering why this ‘problem’ is not being acknowledged.