Guild Wars 2

I strongly disagree with gimping the spy kits. Its a game its supposed to be fun. We are supposed to play how we want. I would have went the opposite way on the spy kits and made them last twice as long.

Yes I have done the dredge part with my ranger without the spy kit on levels less than 20. Solo play a pressure plate get downed still get back up without dying. But asking me to do that with my mesmer is frankly ridiculous unless you guys let me max out all my traits instead of 30-30-0-0-10.

If you want to do it without spykits then fine put it in your gwlfg and I am happy not to play with you. It is a game and a playstyle after all. The control platform with plates does not even have the depth for a dredge to burrow through the metal plate yet they magically appear in numbers. The ranger’s stance at the door you have to destroy with the dredge cannon is always diagonal no matter how I try to point him.

It is a game. Length of boss health bars, mobs health bars are too long in dungeons. An exercise in frustration yet I grind that 1 to 5. Some things should be easy, especially a game you play for fun. Like you guys who want it more difficult try playing without accessories or armor or maybe just white armor. Make that an achievement for the hardcore.

I pug and I pug hard. Often the simpler course of action is best and thats using the spy kits. Lots of people are complaining of the grind to get to 80 which is nothing compared to world completion. Now why shouldn’t I use ash legion and order of whispers spy kits to my hearts content and double their length, so I am not spamming them.

Oh I have played Skyrim they didn’t have any spy kits and I didn’t play it for more than a month. Take away variety, take away our option to have fun and play how we want to is what you guys did with the spy kit. It was another way to play, quite legitimate too.

I just dislike it when someone comes out and says, my way or the highway.

Dredge is perfectly possible without the spy kits (did a 38 group without them just now). It does, however, take much longer and require much more effort. Most players who aren’t elitist who do things for the sake of being challenged look at everything they do for loot like Fractals as a matter of time and effort put in versus amount of loot received. Right now, loot from Fractals of the Mist is downright lousy. Rares and exotics seem to get rarer with each passing day, there are 2 types of Ascended equipment that you can’t get from Fractals of the Mist now, and the difficulty of Fractals hasn’t been affected to reflect this change in the situation. It’s still hard as hell in pug groups. It’s still nearly impossible to melee unless you’re a high toughness Guardian or other tanky character. But the reward for that difficulty and time is growing slim compared to the reward for doing things that would take just as much time like running CoF Path 1 six to eight times in the time it would take to do an average Fractal run. As this goes on, less and less people will keep trying to do Fractals and as a result, the content waste away like story mode because it’s simply not worth doing for reasons beyond what you can get at level 10.

Its lvl 30 GoZero. No reason to go past 30…..

GoZero.9708:

Dredge is perfectly possible without the spy kits (did a 38 group without them just now). It does, however, take much longer and require much more effort.

Kudos to you and your teammates, especially if it is a PUG party. May I also ask that have you used the tactic of tanking with one teammate to assist, whether have you reset at all and your party composition?

I’ve kited mobs away from the panel many times allowing successful caps of the door on 30+ without spy kits. Am I successful doing so on the first attempt every time? No of course not. But to say it’s impossible? That’s silly.

Minion of Vey.4398:

I’ve kited mobs away from the panel many times allowing successful caps of the door on 30+ without spy kits. Am I successful doing so on the first attempt every time? No of course not. But to say it’s impossible? That’s silly.

The operative word is kite. Some people tactics are to tank at the button to maintain aggro off the console activation after lvl 30. That was what my original post was about.

Also fine and dandy, if you got a bunch of good players (with at least one “compulsory” guardian) as a PUG party but more often than not, it is not going to happen. Don’t get me wrong I like skill check dungeons when they are optional (eg Arah) and not part of a 3/4 stage dungeon. If you get this for your 3rd fractal especially after two long fracts prior at higher levels and your party are fragile/dont have a guardian(s), aren’t skilled enuff, its time wasted for nothing. Same thing goes for doing the arm seals in Cliffside “The Right Way” (by NOT leaving one acolyte alive to prevent respawn which I only succeeded once after 3 long tries at only lvl 28 with 1 warrior 1 ranger and 3 light armors; if I recall correctly; PUG party).

Is it silly to say that I don’t want to play that way to please you. Is it silly to say that my mesmer can’t get back up with that build. Is it silly. Maybe I’ll do my Bane impression instead ‘does it make you feel in charge for me not having any spy kits like they used to work but at double their length’.

Lambros Augustus.6594:

Is it silly to say that I don’t want to play that way to please you. Is it silly to say that my mesmer can’t get back up with that build. Is it silly. Maybe I’ll do my Bane impression instead ‘does it make you feel in charge for me not having any spy kits like they used to work but at double their length’.

I have no idea what you are saying here,but I am trying to understand could you clarify?

Minion of Vey.4398:

I’ve kited mobs away from the panel many times allowing successful caps of the door on 30+ without spy kits.

Are you opposed to your teammates using them even now post nerf because its still 10s of invis? If you are, will you kick them from your party?

If your teammate is a thief and is able to use his class mechanic to go stealth the entire duration of console activation, will you ask him to go stand on the button instead or kite (or help the tanker at the button even after lvl 30 in the case of some people)?

Sticks is it not abundantly obvious. I mean there are five posts there. Between my first post in this thread and yours. Why are you being condescending.

sigh now all this makes me want to make a guardian just for fotm, which is how your suppose to play this game. btw i brought this game on 22nd dec reached fotm 35 on a badly loved engineer (healing support)

People have multiple 80s. Just get someone in the party that isn’t the leader to swap out

PurpleHaze.4157:

People have multiple 80s. Just get someone in the party that isn’t the leader to swap out

Really? Wouldn’t some people say that is an abuse of the dungeon party rejoin mechanic? And frankly I kind of agree, but I will not say that it is a cardinal sin etc. After all I still have alts to level.

serves well all the L2P tribe that when people denounced the issues of this, said to use spykits….

And also anet should stop working Always against players without thinking to clear consequences…

I told you months ago this would happen ….. but forum heroes instead complained how too easy are fotm etc etc etc…..

GG

And how come I don’t get any plus one on my posts. But hey everybody else even if they don’t say anything gets it. Thats like doubly condescending.

low levels are easy imo , pass 30s and 40s are hard i want to make it to fotm 48 but looks like it getting harder and harder

Lambros Augustus.6594:

Sticks is it not abundantly obvious. I mean there are five posts there. Between my first post in this thread and yours. Why are you being condescending.

I couldn’t tell if your last post was sarcastic as it seemed to contradict other posts you have made. If I wanted to condescend you instead of understand what you saying you would be raging way harder……oops and I reread your posts so defiantly need to learn to read sorry. Id edit my previous comment but I’m a firm believer in letting embarrassing posts stand as a testament to my idiocy,

It was more amusingly rhetorical. Hence the lack of question marks. And I did not contradict myself. However you have not managed to say much except saying we are dummies and should die more often in a pug.

I did not say you were dummies and die more in a pug. I said I was against things that dummied down the player base AKA just stand on a button invisible for 30 seconds so we can faceroll the rest of this FOTM and learn nothing. I learned more about my mesmer and the things I can do with him from lvl 30+ dredge than I did anywhere else in the game. If I have to apologize for wanting to always become a better player because I am not lazy, impatient, entitled, or pressed for time…..well sorry I won’t do that.

Where is my plus one. No one.

salohcin.6834:

low levels are easy imo , pass 30s and 40s are hard i want to make it to fotm 48 but looks like it getting harder and harder

actually the difficulty is the same from 20….

the game relies on gimmicks not on skills that is why once you get how thing works you just go on to almmost any level…

Actually lvl 10 fotm with pugs is way harder than 38 with 2 guardians for examples and now more than ever….

After you get past 30 people start to know gimmicks….once it was 22 now its 30 because many players got carried to higher levels…

imo pass 28 all i notice is that the mobs and boss hit harder and have higher hp that all

It is completely clear that noone of ArenaNet play Fractals. Fractals need huge rewamp and they nerf spykit… This is sad. But is easy for anet. Much easyer than rewamp shaman. GJ anet. Now will alot group fail not only on shamen but on dreges also:P

actually, maybe thieves will be needed more in PVE (dungeons/fotm) parties ! (rather than being kicked)
you were cheating by using them (the spy kits), i do not think it was intended for just standing there spamming the kits and opening the back door

Just 2 need to die on the pads.

DanH.5879:

actually, maybe thieves will be needed more in PVE (dungeons/fotm) parties ! (rather than being kicked)
you were cheating by using them (the spy kits), i do not think it was intended for just standing there spamming the kits and opening the back door

Like I said in a previous post one thing positive about this nerf. I don’t disagree with the need for a CD in order to prevent spam but essentially a thief would make dredge much simpler and is “cheating” by stealthing the whole time he is operating the console, which is no different from spamming the spy kit. A thief could choose NOT to however; and depending whether he/she is in a l33t group or not, would face condemnation or applause.

To prevent this “cheating” / “sleazing” whatever the l33t players want to call it, I suggested increasing the console activation time. But to my surprise, no one actually supports this suggestion, not even the l33t players. Maybe not to 1 minute as I pointed out in sarcasm, 30s to 40s. If some people can tank at the button for 20s at > lvl 30 fracts, whats another 10 to 20s? Should be no sweat. The attrition rate of players especially casuals and PUGS doing fracts > lvl 30 without rerolling will be higher due to greater number of failures, so it will be a win win for the l33tists.

In short, I think the cooldown introduced for the spy kit patch is ok to prevent spam and exploits of other dungeons and any encounter in general, but I feel that Anet should think about nerfing the spawns as well to compensate, closer to the early days of the fractals when the spawn rate was manageable for casual PUGs. Not just this but the Cliffside Arm Seals as well. I mean didn’t they nerf the HOTW P1 spawning sons of Svanir?

If Anet starts listening to the anti skipping portion of the l33tists as well, I will say goodbye to this game and boycott any other game published by the same devs.

I suppose you think I am l33t for wanting people to not stack under the bridge and wail away on Mossman too. What a joke lol.

Sticks.9374:

I suppose you think I am l33t for wanting people to not stack under the bridge and wail away on Mossman too. What a joke lol.

no but i think its an acceptable strategy since ANET bugged the boss and refuses to fix it….

You know what is the other only strategy?

To look on the map where he is…ad i m glad to inform you that is another glitch abuse…..used as workaround.

Also that explains how people should stop to say L2P when people ask for fixes!

Sticks.9374:

Anything that dummies down the player base is a bad thing. Thank you Anet for fixing this and other things like stacking under bridge for Mossman. Everyone else. if you don’t like the time sink well no one is forcing you to do high level fractals. AND no one is forcing you to use the lfg or pug. It’s an mmo, learn to make friends with similar goals, that’s what I did. There is far too many disconnected people in this community who want to queue up for a party not say a fricking word to anyone spam 1 and 2 until they get loot, then leave. Go play Skyrim!!! Also wtb high lvl urban battleground and dredge fractal farm group!!

My thoughts exactly, high level fractals are supposed to be difficult, not something you can just roflstomp with a random selection of pugs. Me and my friends love killing everything we see in dredge and urban if you are NA drop me a mail in game some time will probably do a run later today :P

Sticks.9374:

I suppose you think I am l33t for wanting people to not stack under the bridge and wail away on Mossman too. What a joke lol.

Khal Drogo.9631:

Are you opposed to your teammates using them even now post nerf because its still 10s of invis? If you are, will you kick them from your party?

If your teammate is a thief and is able to use his class mechanic to go stealth the entire duration of console activation, will you ask him to go stand on the button instead or kite (or help the tanker at the button even after lvl 30 in the case of some people)?

:D. Point taken about who to avoid or totally ignore in my case and vice versa. In a MMO Social Facebook yadda yadda.

Zinkey.6983:

Sticks.9374:

Anything that dummies down the player base is a bad thing. Thank you Anet for fixing this and other things like stacking under bridge for Mossman. Everyone else. if you don’t like the time sink well no one is forcing you to do high level fractals. AND no one is forcing you to use the lfg or pug. It’s an mmo, learn to make friends with similar goals, that’s what I did. There is far too many disconnected people in this community who want to queue up for a party not say a fricking word to anyone spam 1 and 2 until they get loot, then leave. Go play Skyrim!!! Also wtb high lvl urban battleground and dredge fractal farm group!!

My thoughts exactly, high level fractals are supposed to be difficult, not something you can just roflstomp with a random selection of pugs. Me and my friends love killing everything we see in dredge and urban if you are NA drop me a mail in game some time will probably do a run later today :P

Please show how pro you are with a VIDEO of you doing this with a light profession and no guardians in party…

Did you ever thoug that its not some pleyers less skilled than you but some profession that are overly OP in PVE to the point of making too easy content almost impossible for other builds?

No? then vid or didn t happen….everybody is a pro on the forum

P.S. obviously lvl 30+

Khal Drogo.9631:

I dont see a problem. LF1m thief fracts.

This is why I personally disagree with this. Spy kits gave equal access to a mechanic which is OP in fotm. The mechanic still exists for thieves, but other classes lost access to it. This fractal is doable without the kits, but thieves are so much better than everyone else for this fractal. I hate it when class mechanics (like stealth and portal) become so powerful in a group that they dramatically edge out other professions.

Shiren.9532:

This is why I personally disagree with this. Spy kits gave equal access to a mechanic which is OP in fotm. The mechanic still exists for thieves, but other classes lost access to it. This fractal is doable without the kits, but thieves are so much better than everyone else for this fractal. I hate it when class mechanics (like stealth and portal) become so powerful in a group that they dramatically edge out other professions.

The flip side is that a lot of people hate having thieves in their party even those who play the profession well and makes some of the encounters much easier eg. the ice fractal bonfire stage solo with a good thief (people who L2P their professions). At least this nerf erases some of that prejudice.

Actually the OP mechanic in fractals is reflection: Feedback, wall of reflection, smoke screen, etc. Smoke screen happens to be a thief util so another reason to bring a thief.

the issue is still worse…
See invisibility nerfed in PvE so good luck people wanting thieves in parties…

And the reality is that thieves players (not the class) are for some reason generally bad in PvE.

They actually nerfed thieves in PvE.

Khal Drogo.9631:

Sticks.9374:

I suppose you think I am l33t for wanting people to not stack under the bridge and wail away on Mossman too. What a joke lol.

Khal Drogo.9631:

Are you opposed to your teammates using them even now post nerf because its still 10s of invis? If you are, will you kick them from your party?

If your teammate is a thief and is able to use his class mechanic to go stealth the entire duration of console activation, will you ask him to go stand on the button instead or kite (or help the tanker at the button even after lvl 30 in the case of some people)?

:D. Point taken about who to avoid or totally ignore in my case and vice versa. In a MMO Social Facebook yadda yadda.

Well no argument there.

LF1M thief wont happen since mesmers have stealth too and are more useful overall

I just finished this fractal at level 46. I’m only level 34. 2 of our players had to swap out for thief alts to double up on shadow refuge at the control panel, 1 doesn’t quite make it. 2 more dead and naked on buttons. We finished but boy it kinda makes me scratch my head as to why we need to swap out characters for 1 specific part of a dungeon.

level design team needs a magnifying glass on this one.

Also in the Dredge fractal why can’t I hit those things that look like three satellite dishes with my longbow. I am well within the distance yet it never lets me hit. The wall behind me on that corner clips into my field of view which I find disconcerting.

You and your friends love killing things that don’t give you any experience but some of my pugs want to skip things that can give experience and loot. I like experience and loot thats why I play, not to roll my eyes and waste my time on things that provide neither while respawning till the cows come home.

I have never viewed using spy kits on the switch as being an exploit. It just made it quicker to complete. If players choose to kill the first spawn group and kite during the switch being used then so be it. Its a matter of opinion. I prefer the kits for rezing downed players to avoid wiping.

Khal Drogo.9631:

Minion of Vey.4398:

I’ve kited mobs away from the panel many times allowing successful caps of the door on 30+ without spy kits.

Are you opposed to your teammates using them even now post nerf because its still 10s of invis? If you are, will you kick them from your party?

If your teammate is a thief and is able to use his class mechanic to go stealth the entire duration of console activation, will you ask him to go stand on the button instead or kite (or help the tanker at the button even after lvl 30 in the case of some people)?

Nah, only time I kick people is if they go afk too long or lose link.

Sometimes OTHER people in the group didn’t want spy kits, so we didn’t use them. Obviously spy kits are the fastest way, it’s a freebie. But it’s not a big deal not using them either.

@Minion of Vey.4398

Which frac lvl do you play?

zerotwo.4731:

I have never viewed using spy kits on the switch as being an exploit. It just made it quicker to complete. If players choose to kill the first spawn group and kite during the switch being used then so be it. Its a matter of opinion. I prefer the kits for rezing downed players to avoid wiping.

and that is why i read you are on a low level…

You know the first switch to open the first door?
Well its hard to stay alive till you reach the button at higher levels….

Noway you can tank its just not possible.

I bet few noticed the stealth buff ot 2 Patches ago to most trash mobs…….
That was when svanir stage was actually doable and not filled of stupid burst warriors zerg…..also.

Also do you know that in the time required to do DREDGE if you manage to you can do a Whole fractal daily?

And how fun is the bomb door also?

Anet should start to understand what fun is…and not to ruin fun for a false sense of challenge (that instead is more legit gimmicks).

Because at was for champion dredge it justs promotes more boring and longer gimmicks.

Also how on earth an opening event is now the hardest part of the game?
Can you see on how many level this is wrong?

I don t want spykits back i want that art fixed asap considering we asked that months ago…and all they did instead is take away the workaround.

Its a kick in the face to playerbase!

The mechanics for dredge are bad in the sense of how long it takes to do. Compared what fractals was suppose to be, a collection and short but challenging mini-dungeons, dredge could be its own Arah path because it takes so long. The fights end up being massive health sponge wailings and tedious to complete instead of fun.

The same issue is present in the colossus fractal, where you fight the boss multiple times as a massive health sponge, and he doesn’t drop loot himself. The mechanics are relatively fun on this level though.

The volcano fractal’s problem is the intensity of the scaling at high levels that causes a requirement for reflection builds when the adds spawn, and a DPS check on how fast you can kill the adds which have massive health pools.

All of these could be done without spy kits, but spy kits did provide a tool for recovery in case you mis-steped and got yourself in a bad situation. They unfortunately also were chained to bypass the dredge buttons on an already really long fractal.

Dredge fractal is still very doable.

Keep in mind that fractal difficulty level is determined by the party. People are not forced to play fractals 30+, nor is it necessary to access any special content. Rings and fractal weapons are still obtainable at 20. With that said, it is supposed to be a challenge whenever you choose a higher difficulty and it often times requires different strategies to overcome the new challenge.

One of the simplest new strategies to get past the beginning of the dredge fractal (lvl 40+) is to take 1 thief (or someone that can hop on a thief alt just for the door). 2 people die on buttons while 1 person (non-thief) uses the control panel. At that point, the thief will keep the person using the console stealthed using shadow refuge, blinding powder, and smokescreen+blast finishers.

There are most likely other strategies people can come up with, but this is the one I found that works since I play a thief in fractals 40+.

Stealth is an excellent strategy for certain tasks in this fractal, but spy kits were OP. If you want more stealth, play a Thief.

Ropes.8690:

die on buttons

Do you think dieing is a good game mechanism and shows how skilled you are? The whole part should be changed.

MotherBrain.3642:

Ropes.8690:

die on buttons

Do you think dieing is a good game mechanism and shows how skilled you are? The whole part should be changed.

Typically, dying is something that people avoid in games. It is a fundamental mechanic in almost any game which lets the players know that they have lost.

However, in my particular strategy, it serves its purpose to complete the challenge in a timely manner and is easy to do. I do believe it shows skill to complete a challenge in less than a minute where the majority of players feel it is too difficult to even complete at all.

Remember, this is only a strategy worth doing on the higher fractals (40+) which is your own choice to do. Why does ANet need to “fix” this if it is a strategy you decide to do on your own for a difficulty level you set to be super hard in the first place?

LordByron.8369:

zerotwo.4731:

I have never viewed using spy kits on the switch as being an exploit. It just made it quicker to complete. If players choose to kill the first spawn group and kite during the switch being used then so be it. Its a matter of opinion. I prefer the kits for rezing downed players to avoid wiping.

and that is why i read you are on a low level…

So, me being on lvl 26 means I haven’t played higher lvls? Completed lvl 30 and 32 to help others.

You know the first switch to open the first door?
Well its hard to stay alive till you reach the button at higher levels….

Never said it wasn’t difficult. If everything was easy this game would become boring very quickly.

Noway you can tank its just not possible.

Requires kiting and dodging. If ppl were not finishing this at all I could understand that statement.

Also do you know that in the time required to do DREDGE if you manage to you can do a Whole fractal daily?

Cliffside and even the asura (wonderful knockback) can take just as long.

And how fun is the bomb door also?

Very easy! Team holds a space back from the stairs. As a warrior… Endure pain, balanced stance, shake it off, healing surge and sig of rage. Pop signet. Grab a bomb. Dodge is usually required once on my way to the door. Pop endure pain. Plant. Dodge and use balanced stance then healing surge. Dodge once more if possible and your at the stairs. Group drops back and de-agros. If I get killed the team drops out of combat so I can respawn. Rinse and repeat. After the door is gone simply stacking to the right corner of the door allows me to focus melee the trash while receiving support from the rest. I have never had a problem with that door, even when we did it at lvl 30.

Maybe your group wasn’t skilled enough
I did it yesterday lvl 34 at first attempt .