Dungeon Gear System is Anti-Social

Dungeon Gear System is Anti-Social

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Posted by: Munchkin.4137

Munchkin.4137

I have a problem with dungeons. This thread isn’t about the time/reward ratio, the difficulty of dungeons, bugs, or anything like that (even though those things are an issue). My problem is that my group of guildies can’t agree on a dungeon to run, and it’s going to inevitably split us up. This is because of the stats on gear. Allow me to elaborate.

I play Staff Elementalist. The gear I’m after is gear with Power, Toughness, and Vitality. This is because we are so squishy, and I think these stats would be good in WvW and even in dungeons. WvW gear actually has these stats but requires a ridiculous amount of badges. It should also be noted that gear with these stats cannot be crafted, for whatever reason. The dungeons with these stats are AC, SE, and HotW. However, not everyone in my group needs the same stats. Some want Berserker’s stats, some want condition stuff, etc. We can’t agree on a dungeon to run because for some of the people the run will be an absolute and complete waste of time. Who wants to run a dungeon if they know they won’t get anything for it but repair costs?

I heal in dungeons. I like it, and I find it to be my biggest way to contribute to the party’s success. So after realizing we all were after different stats, I decided to re-visit the dungeon gear vendors. I wanted to see if maybe there was a Cleric’s set I could get, so that when I run a dungeon I don’t really need, I could at least get something that could help myself and my group out. Turns out that dungeon gear with Cleric’s stats does not exist. At all. What in the world?

I have a few possible solutions to this problem. Three in fact:

Meh Solution: Make gear with all stat-spreads craftable. This solution is just meh, because it would help myself and others out, but would still leave the real problem un-addressed. It might actually stop dungeon running altogether if farming for mats is easier than running the actual dungeons.

Ok Solution: Make all dungeons drop the same universal token. This would solve the problem of dungeons being anti-social because of gear preferences. The problem is that players would just choose the easiest dungeon to run and the other 7 would literally never be played.

Good Solution: Make each dungeon specialize in what slot it provides. Here is what I mean:

AC: Gives tokens for hats
CM: Gives tokens for shoulders
TA: Gives tokens for coats

And so on, and so forth. This would make all the dungeons desirable to run no matter what class you play, what spec you are, or what stats you like. Thank you for reading.

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Posted by: Godmoney.2048

Godmoney.2048

Vitatlity on a healer is a wasted stat. That’s mmo 101.

Toughness and armor are more efficient for healing builds.

If you don’t even know that then why should I trust you? You’re trying to get gear that’s less than ideal even for a support build.

(edited by Godmoney.2048)

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Posted by: spreadsheets.9805

spreadsheets.9805

Vitatlity on a healer is a wasted stat. That’s mmo 101.

Toughness and armor are more efficient for healing builds.

If you don’t even know that then why should I trust your knowledge?

Going full toughness will have you die in seconds against some bleed stacks.
If you don’t even know that, then why should anyone care about your post?

Not to mention, you’re never gonna match vitality’s EHP with toughness and a healthy HP buffer is actually something to consider in GW2. Can’t very well heal anything if you’re kittening down before your cast finishes, right?

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Posted by: Godmoney.2048

Godmoney.2048

Vitatlity on a healer is a wasted stat. That’s mmo 101.

Toughness and armor are more efficient for healing builds.

If you don’t even know that then why should I trust your knowledge?

Going full toughness will have you die in seconds against some bleed stacks.
If you don’t even know that, then why should anyone care about your post?

Not to mention, you’re never gonna match vitality’s EHP with toughness and a healthy HP buffer is actually something to consider in GW2. Can’t very well heal anything if you’re kittening down before your cast finishes, right?

it’s called condition removal. Why do you need health when a support ele strips conditions like it’s going out of style, not to mention that you can spec more condition removal if you like.

MMO 101 healers build toughness/armor to mitigate and improve their own self healing. Now their heals are worth more without sacrificing stats. This is one of the most common concepts in mmo’s.

Literally one of the most fundamental concepts in mmo’s ever.

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Posted by: Godmoney.2048

Godmoney.2048

Vitatlity on a healer is a wasted stat. That’s mmo 101.

Toughness and armor are more efficient for healing builds.

If you don’t even know that then why should I trust your knowledge?

Going full toughness will have you die in seconds against some bleed stacks.
If you don’t even know that, then why should anyone care about your post?

Not to mention, you’re never gonna match vitality’s EHP with toughness and a healthy HP buffer is actually something to consider in GW2. Can’t very well heal anything if you’re kittening down before your cast finishes, right?

I really like this idea that you would build health and just let bleeds sit on you. That’s super funny.

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Posted by: spreadsheets.9805

spreadsheets.9805

Good luck removing those 20 stacks of bleeding sitting on a maximum of 10k HP. I hope you have quickness or something, lol.

Hint: What is also literally one of the most common principles in MMOs ever? Being able to mitigate all kinds of damage. Guess what? You can’t mitigate some damage in GW2.

Also, I really hope you enjoy getting oneshot by dumb stuff that 200 points of Vitality would let you survive. Here’s another bit of MMO 101 for you: dead guys don’t do kitten.

edit: I also really like how you apparently think “Cleric’s” gear has kittening Vitality when it clearly doesn’t. Check yourself, before you wreck yourself.

(edited by spreadsheets.9805)

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Posted by: Godmoney.2048

Godmoney.2048

Good luck removing those 20 stacks of bleeding sitting on a maximum of 10k HP. I hope you have quickness or something, lol.

Hint: What is also literally one of the most common principles in MMOs ever? Being able to mitigate all kinds of damage. Guess what? You can’t mitigate some damage in GW2.

Also, I really hope you enjoy getting oneshot by dumb stuff that 200 points of Vitality would let you survive. Here’s another bit of MMO 101 for you: dead guys don’t do kitten.

How the hell would you get 20 stacks of bleeding on you? What game are you playing.

I’m in full dungeon gear, we clear COF and AC every single night full clears. I have never ever seen 20 stacks from any combo of mobs.

I literally have every single weapon for my mesmer out of dungeons. I’ve ran AC and COF till my eye’s bleed and I have never seen more than a 10 stack and even then that’s extremley rare.

You’re talking with no experience.

By the time 20 stacks have built up you would already be dead. Support ele’s peal conditions like oranges. Every time they ele shift they peal conditions. Why would a ele then need health when they can heal up and strip conditions?

Telling me good luck? heh, I’m working on a full set of dungeon tokens for my alt now. I don’t need your luck.

(edited by Godmoney.2048)

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Posted by: Lucas Ashrock.8675

Lucas Ashrock.8675

A: WvW is just zerg, your armor stats doesn’t matter. You can even play with white merch armor and weapons with a lv1 (boosted to 80) char with 0 traits, still you’re alive playing as an exotic guy. Just stay back, dodge, do your ele job, run back if losing. Seriously, rofl.

B: Join a pug, amen to what the guild want to do. You need a guild with 60+ players online if you want huge variety and guild runs constantly. Maybe.
With monday fix, you should find loads of pugs, finally. As much there was a mass leaving..

C: Stop to think you’re a healer. You aren’t. Until you’re not planning to be dynamic with all roles, tank healer dps, you will be an useless bag on every group.

Boring..

Dungeon Master http://i.imgur.com/Hoqw3.jpg ME http://i.imgur.com/R41MGzB.jpg Fractal Guild Promoter

(edited by Lucas Ashrock.8675)

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Posted by: spreadsheets.9805

spreadsheets.9805

Good luck removing those 20 stacks of bleeding sitting on a maximum of 10k HP. I hope you have quickness or something, lol.

Hint: What is also literally one of the most common principles in MMOs ever? Being able to mitigate all kinds of damage. Guess what? You can’t mitigate some damage in GW2.

Also, I really hope you enjoy getting oneshot by dumb stuff that 200 points of Vitality would let you survive. Here’s another bit of MMO 101 for you: dead guys don’t do kitten.

How the hell would you get 20 stacks of bleeding on you? What game are you playing.

I’m in full dungeon gear, we clear COF and AC every single night full clears. I have never ever seen 20 stacks from any combo of mobs.

I literally have every single weapon for my mesmer out of dungeons. I’ve ran AC and COF till my eye’s bleed and I have never seen more than a 10 stack and even then that’s extremley rare.

You’re talking with no experience.

There’s some boss encounters and even trash mobs that apply heavy bleeding. Golems in SE is one quick example that comes to mind. Of course, if you’re just doing only COF and AC over and over again, you wouldn’t see those, but that’s just a matter of experience.
h e h

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Posted by: Hayden.7920

Hayden.7920

Munchkin, I wont give you some elitist answer as is the trend and use this as a chance to criticise your idea, but rather offer something to think about. As an elementalist, you can DPS pretty hard. the trick with light armored classes is that their lack of defense is essentially to compensate for their power. it’s expected that you shouldn’t have to take much damage because you’re able to compensate with your skills and bring foes down before they get a chance to touch you – hence why you’re only light armored. The most defensive set of stats and runes can only polish light armored defense so much, it’s really a waste. Your strengths on the other hand, mod around those and it’s much more effective… in your case the best defence would be a good offense.

as for your solutions:
The first one.. sometimes it’s better to have certain things attainable certain ways, if you can get setup perfectly too easily it takes the fun and challenge out of it. That aside, There’s still the fact dungeons have cooler skins in my opinion than crafted armor.

Second one… There is some prestige in holding armor from a certain dungeon, if someone could say get the Arah armor from doing CM over and over, it would mean alot less to own it. you adressed that partly yourself though.

Third solution: I see what you mean, good intentions and i like that it would get people going to different dungeons, but in terms of practicality – it kinda ties in with the answer to suggestion 2. though from owning the peice itself, like the coat for example… people would know you had to go to a certain dungeon to get it. but it’s more rewarding when it’s the skin rather than the peice, because in the end when there’s that one prestigious dungeon… you’re only representing your completion of it with one peice. when you’ve got the whole set from it, that’s saying something. if you can get the whole skin but some of it came from CM or AC… it’s not as valuable to players who find those two dungeons easy.

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Posted by: Munchkin.4137

Munchkin.4137

@Godmoney. Cleric’s armor has +Healing, +Power, and +Toughness. Putting 30 into water adds vitality, which evens out defensive stats nicely. But, as I stated, the gear I want is +Power, +Vitality, and +Toughness.

@Lucas. WvW is definitely zergy at times, but there are plenty of small-scale battles as well, in my experience. I think gear with Power, Vit, and Toughness would cover both scenarios very well, as is evident with the gear you can actually purchase in WvW. I also look forward to monday’s changes, but would much rather run with guildies as I believe my wallet will suffer much less. Oh and I am a healer, if I want to spec to be one. I can be a damage dealer if I want to spec to be that, or even a tank (lol). However, I can’t be all three at the same time.

@Hayden. I appreciate your input and your attitude. I would just like to say that with Power/Vit/Toughness gear, my damage would still be good. I mean, I would never use all Berserker’s gear in an explorable, that’s just suicide, but to each their own. What limits capabilities most is traits. To do good damage I would need to have points into fire, and as I mentioned to Lucas, you can do a lot of things, but not all at once. Guild wars 2 is supposed to do away with the holy trinity, and allow you to choose which role you fill, whether it be tank, dps, or support (to an extent, of course. I don’t expect to be able to tank as well as a Guardian regardless of spec). I choose to play support, which for some reason, people posting have a problem with. My group seems to like my heals very, very much.

@Everyone. This thread got derailed very quickly. Please, instead of attacking my playstyle, spec, or gear preferences, try to stay on topic. This thread is not about the Elementalist and how one should play/gear them for dungeons.

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Posted by: Hellkaiser.6025

Hellkaiser.6025

sips on his coffee and groans slightly

toughness, aint worth a kitten compared to vitality, healing power scales badly too but it’s a kitten sight better, and ultimately you should be avoiding or mitigating damage through debuffs, and buffs like protection and weakness for example, you might think toughness is the bomb but ultimately you’re probably being slightly carried and would benefit a lot more from other stats, IF of course you’re prepared to remove your head from your anus and stop treating GW2 like every rule in the “mmo 101” applies here, without understanding WHY said rules applied in the first place.

Spreadheets pretty much summed it up, if toughness affected condition damage, then it would work just as you expect, but because it doesn’t offer a blanket reduction it’s not ALWAYS going to be the goto stat for a healing orientated build, vitality scales better, is more suited to the builds, and generally will let you survive long enough to get outta danger,

“GW2, where prevention is the best cure”

Clearly this is a design aspect to combat people trying to facetank constantly like throwbacks

Irony…. xD

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Posted by: Lucas Ashrock.8675

Lucas Ashrock.8675

@Lucas. WvW is definitely zergy at times, but there are plenty of small-scale battles as well, in my experience. I think gear with Power, Vit, and Toughness would cover both scenarios very well, as is evident with the gear you can actually purchase in WvW. I also look forward to monday’s changes, but would much rather run with guildies as I believe my wallet will suffer much less. Oh and I am a healer, if I want to spec to be one. I can be a damage dealer if I want to spec to be that, or even a tank (lol). However, I can’t be all three at the same time.

WvW is JUST a zergfest. No build or armor matters, neither for 1 minute.
Trust me. Try if you think i’m lying. Put your traits to 0, put a white armor and white weapons, and test. You will see, nothing changed lol.

Agree, obiouvsly a guild should be better organized and with better performance of a pug. But if you didn’t find 4 guilds (the max you can join) to farm a dungeon until you get what you want, go pug.

And yes, you can balance yourself to cover all roles, obiouvsly focusing on a healer spec, if you’re so fond. But be uberhealer and crappy as dps/tank, considering how hard and dynamic dungeons are, you will discover yourself pretty useless soon.
Try to study a bit more some builds

Dungeon Master http://i.imgur.com/Hoqw3.jpg ME http://i.imgur.com/R41MGzB.jpg Fractal Guild Promoter

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Posted by: Ominous.7583

Ominous.7583

Or you could just take turns running dungeons and gear everyone up but that is a good idea. A better idea would be universal tokens though. I do recall seeing multiple sets of the armor im getting for COF with diffrent stats on it though.

-Ironcurtain

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Posted by: Nate Gray.9241

Nate Gray.9241

@Lucas – You’re a terrible PvPer, then. I regularly take supply depos for my world on my own and protect them from parties of others taking ridiculous amounts of damage from my spells. I can always tell the difference between someone with decent gear and stats vs. someone who thinks like you (no offense intended) as the latter practically melts while the former at least gives me a run for my money.

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Posted by: Godmoney.2048

Godmoney.2048

Simple fact even though most of you seem to be too young and inexperienced to realize.

Healers should mitigate damage to make the most of the health they heal. Health is a tertiary stat on healers.

Armor protects the health you create.

I think it’s funny that people consider conditions a big deal in dungeons at all considering every class has multiple specs to remove conditions and all support has aoe condition removal.

The funniest part is this guy is building out a ele who has some of the best condition removal in GW2.

So it’s suggested that you build health to sustain through condition damage? Why? When you can just remove it by switching attunements?

Literally a wasted stat. Besides that most support ele’s will get a chunk of health from the spec. Why would you then need to also put health on gear?

Healing classes will always benefit from armor over a large health pool.

If he wanted to build a dps ele then health would be viable stat, but he’s not.

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Posted by: Godmoney.2048

Godmoney.2048

Good luck removing those 20 stacks of bleeding sitting on a maximum of 10k HP. I hope you have quickness or something, lol.

Hint: What is also literally one of the most common principles in MMOs ever? Being able to mitigate all kinds of damage. Guess what? You can’t mitigate some damage in GW2.

Also, I really hope you enjoy getting oneshot by dumb stuff that 200 points of Vitality would let you survive. Here’s another bit of MMO 101 for you: dead guys don’t do kitten.

How the hell would you get 20 stacks of bleeding on you? What game are you playing.

I’m in full dungeon gear, we clear COF and AC every single night full clears. I have never ever seen 20 stacks from any combo of mobs.

I literally have every single weapon for my mesmer out of dungeons. I’ve ran AC and COF till my eye’s bleed and I have never seen more than a 10 stack and even then that’s extremley rare.

You’re talking with no experience.

There’s some boss encounters and even trash mobs that apply heavy bleeding. Golems in SE is one quick example that comes to mind. Of course, if you’re just doing only COF and AC over and over again, you wouldn’t see those, but that’s just a matter of experience.
h e h

Which mob’s and dungeons again that you get 20 stacks? Huh? Which ones?

Like I said you’re talking out your face, by the time 20 stacks is on you would be dead. 20 stacks will bleed so fast it’s stupid. 10 stacks will bleed out super fast. I simply don’t believe that you’ve ever seen 20 stacks on anything in pve. The stars would have to align.

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Posted by: Bigbeef.7354

Bigbeef.7354

I found that mixing toughness and vitality works a lot better then heavy-stacking one or the other. Imo vitality is slightly better stat (if you have to pick), but because the gear choices are so varied there is no reason to heavy-stack one over the other.

As a guardian, I set myself up to be about 1500 across the board (power/prec/crit damage/vit/toughness). And slot condition removal utilities and traits. Works great in dungeons, WvW and SPvP. (nearly unstoppable in SPvP / TPvP).

chances are you’re never going to be just attacked with one kind of damage. neglecting toughness makes you an easy target for some mobs/players. Neglecting vitality makes you easy pray for others. So why set yourself up to be over-strong vs one kind of scenario while being handicapped in another?

Balance is key, imo.

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Posted by: Banjo.5409

Banjo.5409

While in spvp, toughness is an important stat for an elem, in pve and 3w you don’t need defensive stats. Just go full berserker with something like 0/30/0/10/30 or whatever you fell like. Mobs will melt so fast. I play mostly d/d and staff for dungeon, never had issue with survivability except for giganticus or i change for 0/0/30/30/10 and some of my jewels.

As stated above, toughness makes your heal more effective that’s why you play earth/water in spvp. It is the only viable build in high level. You can defend a point easily and you do a crap load of condition damage while being a tank.

Going vita/toughness in pve and 3w is boring as hell and ineffective. You should focus on positioning, tactics and dps.

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Posted by: Hellkaiser.6025

Hellkaiser.6025

yes yes, incoming damage and healing and all that malarky that has been explained tons of times before, the real point however is if you have to choose one stat over another? you drop toughness

Regardless of how much toughness you claim you need, you STILL always required enough HP to not get one/two shot, given the stupidly high damage of some attacks in GW2 in dungeons it’s better to avoid the friggin damage and have enough hp to survive a hit or two than to sit there with toughness and try and heal through it when we add to this the horrendous scaling of healing power and toughness in general and marry that with the very valid point of condition damage

And we’re left with a few simple assumptions based on the facts,
If you have a lot of toughness and less vitality, then you had best be stacking that condition removal, if you’ve a lot of vitality and little to no toughness then getting in the faces of mobs is a bad idea

Either way no matter what way you’re built you will NEVER trivialise the monsters in any way other than to simply outplay them with wards, debuffs, buffs and whatnot
I would be very surprised, if the outmoded way of thinking for healers, a role that should not exist in a dedicated sense, would be applicable here.

Also, lol at the “not old enough to remember” comment, really…lol total kitten comment lol. not surprised though one but

Irony…. xD

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Posted by: Fluffycalico.2715

Fluffycalico.2715

If your guild/group won’t just say ok so we need to do x,y,z to get everyone what they need and then go do x,y,z then your group or guild is already broken up. Anyone who says I only need to run X so I will only run X period deserves a guild/kick

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Posted by: Grumwulf.9602

Grumwulf.9602

I agree OP. And it doesn’t matter what stats you want or if they are really suitable or not, what matters is that your friends all have different goals in the game. It’s really a very bad design to split the community in this way, 1 community becomes 8 different sub groups. And Fluffycalico the type of guild that demands that kind of sacrifice for the good of the guild is the worse kind of guild in the game and thankfully very few of them exist. The best guilds are ones where people do things together because hey everyone wanted to do that thing anyway and doing things with friends is fun. Save self sacrifice for real life.

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Posted by: Fluffycalico.2715

Fluffycalico.2715

I agree OP. And it doesn’t matter what stats you want or if they are really suitable or not, what matters is that your friends all have different goals in the game. It’s really a very bad design to split the community in this way, 1 community becomes 8 different sub groups. And Fluffycalico the type of guild that demands that kind of sacrifice for the good of the guild is the worse kind of guild in the game and thankfully very few of them exist. The best guilds are ones where people do things together because hey everyone wanted to do that thing anyway and doing things with friends is fun. Save self sacrifice for real life.

Wrong any guildie who is me me me me screw you me me me is not a guildie and deserves to be sitting alone in LA spamming LFG If you won’t help others then don’t cry when they won’t help you. And all the dungeons are fun there is no reason to not run all of them. I have had all my gear for a long time. I still run the dungeons because the groups and dungeons are fun. If you don’t want to help the friends in your guild then why are you there? To mouch their guild buffs?

(edited by Fluffycalico.2715)

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Posted by: Fluffycalico.2715

Fluffycalico.2715

I don’t demand anyone do anything, but if you aren’t up to running x and y becuase you need y and they need x and just want them to help you while you turn up your nose at them … I have no spot for you in any game guild or group.

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Posted by: Eve.1029

Eve.1029

woah, why are you all jumping down this guy’s throat about his armor choices? that’s not even the topic. The fact of the matter is, different dungeons give different gear. and that difference makes it hard for his guild to decide on one dungeon together. I think that’s a legit topic o.O meanwhile i do like his idea of running different dungeon for different pieces of gear.

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Posted by: Grumwulf.9602

Grumwulf.9602

I see what you mean Fluffy. But this isn’t just about the me, me, me types. The kind of guild I prefer is one where nobody expects the help of anyone else just because they are in the same guild. Sure, people help each other but it isn’t a requirement. It’s not about being selfish. I have never asked a guildie to run anything just so I could get something. I just wouldn’t be comfortable having 4 people spend their time helping me that way. At the same time while I wouldn’t mind helping my guildies if they asked me one or twice, I would resent it if there were constant requests especially as I would never make such a request myself. That is why I believe the best guilds are ones where the people all want to do the same thing anyway and special requests are kept to a minimum. In GW2 the dungeon system does not allow for this. It is anti-social, and I am amazed it is in the game, with Arenanet’s avowed aims at creating a socially centred game.

(edited by Grumwulf.9602)

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Posted by: TheUndefined.1720

TheUndefined.1720

What the kitten is going on in this thread?

Why are people arguing about gear stats when that’s not even the point of the OP?

Who cares which gear stats you used in EQ or whatever older MMO you’ll pull out of your sleeve. If you want to flaunt your MMO experience why not just be honest, and say ’I’m the best, and I know everything,’ instead of bullying the OP with this condescending attitude?

Also who cares what the OP gears? If you really feel those stats will harm the OP’s gaming experience toss them a polite private message.

The point attempting to be made here is a real problem in this game. Separating dungeons out for specific gear stats is lame. Arenanet is fostering a ‘grind’ mentality. I thought we were done with grinding?

Honestly the best option is to make all the tokens universal. That way you can choose any dungeon you want, and spread out your runs. I thought I had read they were doing this, but I guess I misread the information.

EDIT: Lol Eve I totally skimmed over your post! Great minds think a like ;D

(edited by TheUndefined.1720)

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Posted by: Pennry.9215

Pennry.9215

Dungeon gear really should only be about appearance. They all have semi-unique skins, keep it that way. Make all dungeon gear available with all stat combinations available from the dungeon sets. That or make a degrading exchange system where say trading AC tokens for Arah tokens is like 10:1 (an example, just make it scale down more for the higher spread). Or, better yet, make a “karma set” for people to pool all their tokens in and get a universal token for. This way one could exchange all their tokens (from all the dungeons) in to one currency for a new unique set.