Guild Wars 2

Dark Sentry.1270:

Punishing for clearing the dungeon too fast is completely absurd.

It shouldn’t matter how fast you can clear the dungeon when you are already punished for repeating a dungeon path. Why is it necessary to double punish someone who is capable of doing the dungeon with ease?

Diminishing returns for multiple successive runs: okay
Diminishing returns for finishing too fast: the worst idea ever…

Well how else do you extend a truly non existent “endgame”. I mean they cant come out and say “It is in our best interest if players do not have a sustainable way of creating income or attaining goals quickly regardless of skill or game generalship.”

Gotta agree with frost.
Tried to do Arah and ended up with no reward for time spent in the dungeon at all.
Gold/repair wise or token wise.

Finishing the dungeon resulting in a bonus reward for the day is good but does not take into account the fact that people leave half way through. As a result of this experience not going back in there till its actually rewarding. Whether that is by making the encounters enjoyable or simply rewarding players for part progress.

The giant wolf boss was the main problem, he pretty much 2 shots anyone in the party. That is not so bad but the window to dodge does not take into account that some people live in places with 300ms+ ping where the boss’ homing attack is pretty much twitch reaction provided a lag spike does not screw me. If I wanted to play a game like that there are console ARPGs that fill the role of killing me in 2 hits or less where I do not need to worry about lag.

To summarise,
Bring back rewards for chests. Keep increased rewards for completion.
Fix boss encounters to where dodge windows account for latency and leave twitch reaction dodge mechanics to offline games.

Evil.9061:

ref.8196:

Evil.9061:

Punishing players , after you had addressed design-based myopic issues, is wrong. Players who craft or grind gear will get better results with time in character. Ergo faster completion times and directly into punishment for good play.

Diminishing returns based on completion time, Well if you wanted to be revolutionary….that truly is.

As far as live being your Test realm, might not be the best idea.

I’m pretty sure it’s bugged at the moment, so lets wait until they fix it before commenting on the diminishing returns system.

“If you are experiencing Diminished Returns, it is due to clearing dungeons too quickly.”
-Robert H

Posted today.

My post was focused on the hour for 2 dungeon runs then you hit the DR.

I’ll try tonight and see what I find.

iSECKS.6738:

ref.8196:

dimgl.4786:

Again guys, I really think the right idea is to implement a system where your awards get better as you progress further in the dungeon… So you have a big incentive to actually do the whole thing…

But isn’t the reward at the end enough incentive to do the whole thing?

And what if something urgent comes up that one person needs to leave mid way through a dungeon or right before the end? They get absolutely nothing but a repair bill and minor loot from chests.

True, but then this is also a problem in many other areas of games, such as story quests, or tournaments.

I think maybe they should do that then, have 5 for the first chest, 10 for the 2nd, 25 for the last. They have to do it so its more effective to complete the dungeon, but still giving a reward for partial play.

But it’s still great that they listened and DID change something.

DaedalusDragon.3754:

On another note: I don’t appreciate having content in a game that I might not be able to complete due to straight up skill. If this was the real life and I hadn’t paid for this game, I’d just say “Oh well… guess I’m just not good enough to do that” but as I have paid for this product, it is a giant slap in the face when the developer says “l2p nub”. There is no content in this game that can prepare you for their absurd dungeon runs and even the first dungeon you do is stupid hard with no learning aspect except beating your head against the enemies until they die.

I 100% completely disagree with this. Purchasing a game does not mean you should be guaranteed to be able to do everything. That’s a sense of entitlement that I just don’t get. Games are based on skill, it’s not a passive activity like a movie or something. They don’t need to nerf everything just so everyone and their grandmother can do it while half watching TV.

Also, if you are doing nothing but “beating your head against enemies until they die” then you are doing it wrong. Yeah, the first time you step into a dungeon it is a jarring experience. They are hard, much more so than the outside world PvE. There are definite strategies here and things you need to learn (like how/when to dodge and to stay out of the red circles). Once you learn these things the dungeons just become pretty easy. If you can’t dodge and avoid the red circles, then why do you deserve to be able to complete all of the dungeons?

In fact, I disagree with most of the people complaining in this thread. Moving rewards to the end of the dungeons was an awesome move. I am not sure about the diminishing rewards, but I don’t have a big problem with them. The dungeons are already pretty easy, and it really doesn’t take long at all to get the rewards, especially with the increases they just put in (assuming no bugs).

I won’t be able to test some of these changes tonight, but I am concerned about a few things right off the bat.

1) If dungeon tokens are only rewarded at the completion of an explorable, would that not encourage people to try to skip bosses along the way? For example, Kholer in Ascalonian Catacombs has full reason to be skipped now because he no longer rewards tokens. All he really guards now is a usable waypoint, but if there’s no real reason to kill him, especially if your team is very experienced and rarely dies on any of the AC paths.

2) Dungeon rewards are pretty much why people would run explorables, so if the bosses along the way do not provide any sort of reward, it would seem a waste of time for nothing. I noticed that some bosses in Ascalon Catacombs drop a couple silver (the champion howler/scavenger and the end bosses). I think, at the very least, until a better system is suggested/discovered, have the other dungeon bosses drop a few silver, so that there is a bit of incentive in clearing the dungeon as intended, rather than trying to find ways to bypass content.

The original CoF run (before the anti-speedfarm patch) was an incentive for people to run because of its speed and coin rewards that you would get at the end. I understand that the intent for explorables is for people to play through it, so there needs to be a balance between progression and end rewards. Repeated running of one boss should not exceed the gain from completing the entire explorable path. I think for now, I can agree with giving token rewards at the end of a run, but there should be checkpoint rewards (aside from a closer waypoint) for killing the bosses on the way to the end of the explorable path. I think 1-3 silver on loot or chest drop would be fine as most of the dungeon bosses feel like mini dynamic events.

3) I’m still a bit concerned about the diminishing returns on the rewards system. My dungeon group has been getting more and more efficient at clearing dungeons we once thought were a nightmare (Twilight Arbor for example, with the volatile blossoms). If we increase our speed through refined coordination and dungeon mastery, it seems a bit unfair that we get severely punished for that. Dungeon running has been our nightly activity and because we play so much together, we keep finding more and more ways to coordinate our attacks and strategies in dungeons. I think the current system punishes us for clearing faster without the use of exploits or bypassing content. The earlier suggestion I made about checkpoint rewards may remedy this situation as well, while diminishing the end reward won’t seem so bad. It may be an incentive to slow down the explorable, so that they won’t get hit by the diminished end rewards too much.

I think it’s great that there is more incentive to clear paths and more incentive to clear all dungeon paths. I keep hearing that the token rewards are bugged, but I have yet to test that out. In any case, I’m sure it will be fixed. This is why you ask for feedback, of course. :P

Thanks for listening, and I hope we can continue the path towards a better dungeon experience!

Just down right sad. You actually punish us for finishing it too quickly? Here’s an idea. Bring back the XP bonus to where it was previously when it scaled; however, make the dungeons HARDER. That way people get 1/3 – 1/2 of a level of experience for what..1 to 1.5 hours spent in a dungeon?

This might be slower than actual heart grinding in zones, but its a nice break from grinding without being jipped on the low rewards.

CM was easy, when you can speed run in in 15-20 minutes and gain half a level, yea I see the problem. Make it harder (which you did) but keep the rewards.

I don’t understand why the dungeons don’t have any complex mechanics. Most of them are just generic tank and spank, remove conditions, or avoiding the move that one shots you.

The giant eye at the end of your class quest is the most complex boss I’ve seen ingame and it’s not even in a dungeon. Zhaitan, the Primordial dragon God, just sits on a pillar as you mash the 2 button until your fingers go numb.

Lightrayne.7829:

I won’t be able to test some of these changes tonight, but I am concerned about a few things right off the bat.

1) If dungeon tokens are only rewarded at the completion of an explorable, would that not encourage people to try to skip bosses along the way? For example, Kholer in Ascalonian Catacombs has full reason to be skipped now because he no longer rewards tokens. All he really guards now is a usable waypoint, but if there’s no real reason to kill him, especially if your team is very experienced and rarely dies on any of the AC paths.

2) Dungeon rewards are pretty much why people would run explorables, so if the bosses along the way do not provide any sort of reward, it would seem a waste of time for nothing. I noticed that some bosses in Ascalon Catacombs drop a couple silver (the champion howler/scavenger and the end bosses). I think, at the very least, until a better system is suggested/discovered, have the other dungeon bosses drop a few silver, so that there is a bit of incentive in clearing the dungeon as intended, rather than trying to find ways to bypass content.

The original CoF run (before the anti-speedfarm patch) was an incentive for people to run because of its speed and coin rewards that you would get at the end. I understand that the intent for explorables is for people to play through it, so there needs to be a balance between progression and end rewards. Repeated running of one boss should not exceed the gain from completing the entire explorable path. I think for now, I can agree with giving token rewards at the end of a run, but there should be checkpoint rewards (aside from a closer waypoint) for killing the bosses on the way to the end of the explorable path. I think 1-3 silver on loot or chest drop would be fine as most of the dungeon bosses feel like mini dynamic events.

3) I’m still a bit concerned about the diminishing returns on the rewards system. My dungeon group has been getting more and more efficient at clearing dungeons we once thought were a nightmare (Twilight Arbor for example, with the volatile blossoms). If we increase our speed through refined coordination and dungeon mastery, it seems a bit unfair that we get severely punished for that. Dungeon running has been our nightly activity and because we play so much together, we keep finding more and more ways to coordinate our attacks and strategies in dungeons. I think the current system punishes us for clearing faster without the use of exploits or bypassing content. The earlier suggestion I made about checkpoint rewards may remedy this situation as well, while diminishing the end reward won’t seem so bad. It may be an incentive to slow down the explorable, so that they won’t get hit by the diminished end rewards too much.

I think it’s great that there is more incentive to clear paths and more incentive to clear all dungeon paths. I keep hearing that the token rewards are bugged, but I have yet to test that out. In any case, I’m sure it will be fixed. This is why you ask for feedback, of course. :P

Thanks for listening, and I hope we can continue the path towards a better dungeon experience!

The thing about Kholer is a good point, but there is still a chest right?

Although I don’t run dungeons just for the rewards.

“If you are experiencing Diminished Returns, it is due to clearing dungeons too quickly.”
-Robert H

“If you speed clear dungeons at a rate of more than 2/ hour, and continue to do that for some time your rewards will slowly begin to degrade. It doesn’t kick in after running a single dungeon and it doesn’t immediately zero out rewards.”
-Jon Peters

Seriously Anet team. Do you guys even talk to each other at all? What’s with the lack of consistency between your claims? If I take Jon Peters’ word for face value, that would mean that even if I complete a dungeon in less than 30 minutes, the diminishing return shouldn’t kick in until the next dungeon right?

Aside from that I’d also like to chip in that I was shafted on reward at CoF Magg route.
Everyone else received full reward but me (45 tokens 19 silver). We haven’t done a single dungeon run since last week. I’ve made at least 3 threads about how diminishing return didn’t work in the past. You guys acknowledged that it was bugged and made it sound like you had a fix. Please test out your patches before live.
PLEASE for the love of god before this game become like FFXIV where everyone dropped after the first month because the developers were too stubborn. It’s a good example that you guys should learn from because from all of that fiasco, the initial FFXIV manager resigned and the whole dev team went under restructuring. It took them nearly 2 years to turn it around into an enjoyable game!

Updates to come.

1. Experience caps per hour on alts.

2. Valor caps in Spvp- scratch that, no money changing hands, this one is ok.

3. Badges of Honor Caps per 30 min.

Only logical to follow the current changes.

CoF has not been fixed as described. Magg still paths incorrectly through lava and will still run in the wrong direction if he sees a mob he doesn’t like. In fact it just seems like the patch made it slightly more difficult for him to take damage from mobs (but he still dies pretty instantly from flame damage). When he dies in the lava fields he doesn’t respawn at the start area unless at least one of the party members runs back there.

However, I am glad that the rock allowing the jump over the door during the bomb planting event has been removed.

I would just like to request that these patches actually be tested before being implemented so that the fixes they say they fix are actually made.

I’ve been trying my best to be patient with the dungeons and their rewards, but ANet is full of failure. I was very excited that players are finally gonna stop with “speed runs” or “farm runs” group because of the new reward system. So I did Honor of the Waves, Butcher path for the first time in a few days and I get a measly 15 kitten tokens. Thank you ANet, thank you. I don’t mind the DR they are implementing one bit, but when it causes bugs after bugs, inconsistencies after inconsistencies with players getting the full tokens and others receiving very small amount of kitten tokens, it just gets very frustrated especially for players who want to earn these tokens with no shortcuts.

Please pardon my kittens.

So it’s no longer possible to run dungeons with ppl from another worlds/realms?

gulzorxp.8732:

So it’s no longer possible to run dungeons with ppl from another worlds/realms?

I still do this even today. Seems to be local.

I’ve noticed that my (formerly soulbound) recipes are now labeled as “account-bound” following this update, but they still behave as though soulbound.

Is this a known bug? To be fixed, or too minor to warrant attention?

ref.8196:

The thing about Kholer is a good point, but there is still a chest right?

Although I don’t run dungeons just for the rewards.

There is a chest, but because they moved all token rewards towards the end reward, there is almost no reason to get the chest now. Most of the time, it just gives you fine (blue) items. If they want us to fight Kholer, they should properly seal us away from the next area and unlock it when Kholer dies. All three paths are open to skip Kholer for some reason. I’m not even sure if skipping him is an exploit or not.

I also don’t do dungeon runs just for the rewards, but I just assume most people do it for just the rewards. Some of my friends absolutely hate Twilight Arbor, but they want the skins from it, so they try to endure it as much as possible. I do dungeons to improve my PvE play skill and coordination with my friends. At the moment, I agree with others on this thread saying that some of the dungeon boss mechanics are just dull and you just end up hitting a boss for 5 minutes like your usual tank and spank from some other MMOs. It seems we have a long journey to find a good compromise between the dungeon mechanics and the rewards system, but I am confident that we will get there eventually.

I understand being annoyed by bugs when you bought a product, but use common sense, you know perfectly well software of this size is not easy to manage. And more importantly, no matter what, it doesn’t give you the right to be borderline insulting towards ANet or fellow players disagreeing with you.

That said, yeah, I’m not sure that diminishing return decision on clearing speed was the best ever taken… People can certainly live a while with having to clear the path for rewards, however, I doubt they’ll be too happy if they get lesser rewards because they managed to skillfully and quickly dispatch mobs and bosses…

You are basically punishing skill here instead of preventing exploits.

I’m getting one very strong feeling from every patch that Anet comes out with. 1 step forward 2 steps back.

@Ramza, did you pay for the game? If you didn’t good for you. But of course, people should ask politely… which is what people tried to do before… now we are the test dummies for every poor patch that comes out. Patience = very thin

RoyHarmon: Those are probably items that, too will actually be account bound in next week’s patch instead of just saying they are. Probably good reasons for it.

Dungeon tokens should be account bound. This will allow players to have a single character farm tokens for their other characters.

What an awkward and half-assed “solution”.

So we still need to repeat the same dungeon hundreds of times to get the full set (instead of being able to join our friends in other dungeons and still get some emblems we can use), but now we can get rewards from dungeon X for a character who never set foot in that dungeon…? It makes no sense.

It still forces the repetitive grind and goes completely against the lore. From the point of view of NPCs, my mesmer is a completely different “person” from my guardian. So why should they be giving the mesmer a reward for helping them in AC (for example) when he never set foot in AC (and all the work was done by the guardian)?

A much better solution, which I suggested in another thread, would be this:

• Add an NPC that will exchange dungeon tokens as long as the character has completed all paths in both dungeons.

This would encourage players to complete all dungeons and, once they have completed them, would allow them to do their favourite dungeons (or join friends in dungeons that those friends want to run) while still getting tokens that are useful to them.

In fact, here’s the complete suggestion from the other thread (that got locked):

• Add an NPC that converts tokens from one dungeon to another as long as the player has done every path in both of those dungeons. I think this would be the most balanced solution, in terms of ease of use and fitting the lore.

• Add an NPC that converts tokens from one dungeon to another for a karma fee (ex., 50 karma to convert each token).

• Add an NPC that converts tokens from one dungeon to another for a gold fee (ex., 5 silver to convert each token).

• Add an NPC that converts tokens from one dungeon to another for a gem fee (ex., 1 gem to convert each token).

• Add all of the above (and let each player pick the NPC more convenient to them).

• Use a universal token system instead (one token type for all dungeons, possibly with some dungeons paths giving more tokens than others).

In addition to that, I would like to see this:

• Add a small chance (ex., 1-2%) that the last boss will drop one item from that dungeon’s armor or weapon set. This will strengthen the connection between the set and its respective dungeon, and as long as players also get the fixed reward of the tokens they won’t feel that they’re just gambling, as in other games where the random drops are the only way of getting gear.

Currently, if some friends asks me to help them in TA, I have to tell them “sorry, but I have limited time to play, I’m not interested in any gear from TA, so I have to go run AC for the 100th time instead of playing with you”.

But hey, now I can just rush my guardian to 80 and use that character to farm gear for my alts, thus having (for example) a mesmer in full Arah gear who never set foot in Arah… makes perfect sense (not).

I realise that it’s very easy to simply change the item flag from “soulbound” to “account bound”, but that doesn’t make it the correct long-term solution, either from the point of view of having a consistent game world or from the point of view of replacing repetitive grind with a wider variety of challenges. And the problem with these quick and possibly temporary “solutions” is that they usually end up being permanent, and the fundamental design flaw never gets fixed.

- Al Zheimer

Grade: F for failure

Inci.7560:

gulzorxp.8732:

So it’s no longer possible to run dungeons with ppl from another worlds/realms?

I still do this even today. Seems to be local.

That was/is possible?

1 run:AC(2 path) 45 tokens
2 run:AC(1 path) 30 tokens
3 run:AC(3 path) 15 tokens

Last run?2-3 days ago.
ps:all runs in less than 30 min(not sure)

Having rewards for certain parts of the dungeon before the end is important as an incentive to keep newer people motivated. Small amount of rewards are still fairly major for dungeon initiates as a sense of accomplishment. I am ok with the bulk of the reward coming at the end (say, 80-20 split or something), but I think having some token and monetary reward (just a couple of silver) for legendary, or even champion bosses, will go a long way.

I am also still completely against punishing players for “speed” clearing. Again, I understand that the purpose of the system is for anti-exploit. I will request my group to run a couple of dungeons to the best of our abilities tonight to test the thresholds set by the current system. Hopefully we can get a recording as well. If the thresholds are to stay.

That said, I would still hope another solution is put in place against what ANet deems as speed run of the dungeons. More doors opened via mob clear to prevent area skipping, more reward triggers that are then pooled to be given at the end to promote engagement, making the dungeon harder, etc, are all better solution than a minimum time threshold in my opinion.

Thank you,
TJL

TOTAL FAIL…….!!!!

unable to enter dungeons click on entry and…. nothing…. click again and… nothing try it x times nothing relog x times nothing… after half of hour clicking to entry button finaly manged to go inside but surprise…. it created personal instance and other party members were in another

GJ with this

I just finished running TA, 2 different paths. First run of the day I hadn’t ran since my daily reset.

Unfortunately I clicked thru the rewards without taking a screenshot.
First path: I got 19S & 15 tokens
Sendon path: 19S & 30 tokens

From what I understood of the update, I should’ve at LEAST gotten 20 for the first run, but I should really have gotten 60 due to the first run/path?
Other people in my group had gotten 60 or 45, but I was the only one who got 15.

Does anybody have a link to an official Dungeon Philosophy or something from ANet?

I mean, if I break down a lot of what’s being said and done, it looks a bit like this. And I’m not trying to intentionally provoke here. This may come off as snarky, but I swear that’s not my intention. I’m trying desperately to understand the philosophy to decide if I want to do the content based on it at all:

“Dungeons should take a minimum of 30 minutes to run.”
“All content in each dungeon must be seen by all party members.”
“A set number of fights must occur and be won by the party.”
“Difficulty is based on a one of two formulae that either multiplies party DPS by some factor to determine mob health and damage output, thereby extending fights to the acceptable length of time, or multiplies the number of mobs in the encounter and the number of events per second occurring on screen to cause as much confusion, and therefore difficulty, as is necessary to extend the encounters to the acceptable length of time.”
“You may only receive a rate of return on time invested of x tokens/silver per hour.”
“You must see x number of square feet of content per hour to avoid these restrictions.”

When I try to interpret the patch notes and comments, I’m getting a very formula-based result. That doesn’t quite square up with the other stuff I’ve seen about their philosophy, so I’m either misinterpreting the actions of the team, or I misinterpreted the intentions pre-launch.

Or maybe I’m missing something else?

For what it’s worth, I’m against exploits of any kind. But the diminishing returns thing seems a bit… I don’t know. Sulky? “If you don’t see all of our beautiful content, you get punished.” I have a hard time believing that’s what’s ACTUALLY happening behind closed doors, but it feels that way.

So please, someone, is there an official statement of intent anywhere?

when you start making tokens drop in the dungeon you need to make it where magic find doesnt affect them or everyone is going to run in magic find gear which would make dungeons take longer

Yeah with this account bound change why won’t people just make the best dungeon running class into all of the dungeons…. We will see whole teams comprised of the same people and classes every time for all dungeons. I heard that is what happened in GW1 as well. My suggestion was, and still is, to make the tokens similar to money. A currency on the UI for that one character. It eliminates the need to fill your bank with character bound currency and it doesn’t break any semblance of logic in getting gear for players who haven’t even seen that dungeon. I could, essentially, give all of my level 1 alts a set of CoF gear to hold onto until level 80 in this case.

Heurou.8342:

when you start making tokens drop in the dungeon you need to make it where magic find doesnt affect them or everyone is going to run in magic find gear which would make dungeons take longer

Wouldn’t matter if you’re in the dungeon longer than 5-10 min the "anti botting " tech would kick in (even faster with the DR) and nothing would drop.

I performed several CoF run’s today, most of which went rather well, however when we reach the Magg bomb room, and if failure starts to kick in, people just leave, making the time spent there pointless (thanks to the new “completion mandatory for tokens system”). This happens with both guild members and pub’s.

It feels extremely disheartening knowing that your badges are that close, and you have put work into receiving them, but now you cannot get any. Two of us (me and my friend) stayed behind, trying to do the bomb part ourselves, but we simply could not do it.

In the end, we left, feeling that our time had been completely wasted, and no reward was given. Please revert back to the old system of chests at the end of each boss, as this method of handing out rewards is fairer to people who have limited time to play.

Obviously this is not only connected to Cof or the Magg path, as parties disbanding can happen in any dungeon or on any path.

I like that you’re making tokens account bound. I also understand why tokens were changed to be rewarded at the end of the dungeon (likely to prevent some issues like Arah shard farming). However, this just increases a risk of not getting any reward. If the dungeon starter leaves the party, if they give up, you get nothing. If you disconnect at the end for no reason (has happened to quite a lot of my friends) and don’t get back in time, you get nothing.

The worst part of the patch is that the rewards aren’t working properly. I would rather have a consistent reward rather than have to worry about spending my time for a reward that will be random as hell. At least in the previous build, we knew how many tokens we would be getting.

I am personally fine with the new patch. I think there SHOULD be a reason to finish the dungeon. I play the game for a challenge, and i’m hard pressed to find a group willing to attempt to clear a dungeon, or ones that were clearing the dungeon wanted to use shortcuts to do so completely removing the challenge involved.

I agree with the difficulty in the dungeons, and I agree with how they are choosing to reward players.

It depresses me to see how far the genre has fallen when people die 2-3 times on a boss and want to give up. And all I hear is how it’s not their fault the dungeon is too hard, it’s Anets for making it too hard.

Where is the desire for self improvement? It seems to be non-existant. Having great stats and awesome looking armor means nothing if it takes no effort to obtain it, and no…doing speed run maggs is not effort, farming first 2 bosses in Arah is not effort.

I would like things to stay the way they are, minus a few bugs here and there that need fixed of course. But dungeon rewards, should be for completing the dungeon only, and for those that have to leave before the end…the dungeon will still be there tomorrow, you’re welcome to come back.

One thing I would like to know, is why don’t some spells work on bosses? Today was my first time attempt Ferrah line of CoF explore and on the final boss, I loaded “Arcane Thievery” and “Null Field” to attempt to remove some of his stacks of regen and neither of them worked on his boons. We were still able to kill him, I was just really disappointed that I loaded those two abilities and they didn’t even have any affect except clearing burning from me. I couldn’t even use Arcane Thievery to take might off of him.

Gathnarius.9084:

I am personally fine with the new patch. I think there SHOULD be a reason to finish the dungeon. I play the game for a challenge, and i’m hard pressed to find a group willing to attempt to clear a dungeon, or ones that were clearing the dungeon wanted to use shortcuts to do so completely removing the challenge involved.

I agree with the difficulty in the dungeons, and I agree with how they are choosing to reward players.

It depresses me to see how far the genre has fallen when people die 2-3 times on a boss and want to give up. And all I hear is how it’s not their fault the dungeon is too hard, it’s Anets for making it too hard.

Where is the desire for self improvement? It seems to be non-existant. Having great stats and awesome looking armor means nothing if it takes no effort to obtain it, and no…doing speed run maggs is not effort, farming first 2 bosses in Arah is not effort.

I would like things to stay the way they are, minus a few bugs here and there that need fixed of course. But dungeon rewards, should be for completing the dungeon only, and for those that have to leave before the end…the dungeon will still be there tomorrow, you’re welcome to come back.

One thing I would like to know, is why don’t some spells work on bosses? Today was my first time attempt Ferrah line of CoF explore and on the final boss, I loaded “Arcane Thievery” and “Null Field” to attempt to remove some of his stacks of regen and neither of them worked on his boons. We were still able to kill him, I was just really disappointed that I loaded those two abilities and they didn’t even have any affect except clearing burning from me. I couldn’t even use Arcane Thievery to take might off of him.

The thing is, we can’t fix people leaving in the middle of dungeons. I’ve gone through many dungeons where I spent more than double the amount earned on armor repair (and that was before the bugged DR patch… I won’t even try it now that they are breaking their game) but I wouldn’t quit. But if someone does, now I’ve wasted my time and my money on repairs. And this isn’t just because pugs are unreliable. Things happen and sometimes people have to leave. In the event of just about anything real life, I will quit playing no matter where I am. It doesn’t have to be an emergency for me to choose RL over a dungeon group.

P.S. I play from my college. Every 6 hours I get kicked off of the internet and forced to relog. I HATE that stupid system but I have no control over it. I don’t usually remember when I last logged on and something like that is a huge scare when I have to complete this 2 hour dungeon (1/3 of my allotted time before relogging) and potentially get no rewards.

Gathnarius: regardless of whether you think people should finish, sometimes it’s beyond their or the groups circumstances so why punish everyone in the group over it. What if your internet drops randomly, there’s an emergency, etc. There should be rewards throughout with an even bigger reward for finishing. I have to agree with the masses and say that this is a big step back for Anet, fix the wall jumps, exploits, etc, but don’t drive away your player base.

My overall response is that this first attempt to fix the dungeon reward vs. effort/risk is simply not good enough and also creates different problems than before.

Here is what you should do instead, IMO:

1. You must reward some tokens for partial completion. Your current system simply punishes any player who can’t hang with a group until the very end, and time is our enemy in all games. Your current system also completely punished and demoralizes even guild groups who are attempting to learn how to clear an entire explorable path. How many tries will they need, given how “extremely difficult” your design intent is? How many times will they beat their heads to learn the path, fail and give up after 2 hours, try again the next night, fail again, etc. all without receiving any reward at all? This is very bad design and completely demoralizing.

2. Your current system still punishes “casual” guilds and family/friends that play together. It rewards and enables only “hardcore” guilds with large membership. Say I’m in a small, casual multi-gaming guild of 20 people. Of which maybe any set of 7 of us are online at the same time during primetime play slots. A different set of 7 each time. Setting up a static farming group is impossible. Every time you group up to try a dungeon clear, it’s a different set of people. All of this leads to the problem described in point #1 above: it takes casual guilds a LOT longer to collectively learn how to clear hard dungeon content than it takes hardcore loners or large hardcore guilds to learn how to do.

3. Now add the dimension of “I want the armor from dungeon X, but you want the armor from dungeon Y”. In this scenario, the two of us have to work twice as hard and twice as long to help each other grind out the tokens they need to complete our respective sets of armor. What will happen in reality because of this? “Gee, valued guildmate, I’d love to help you, but it will take each of us casual players twice as long as any one hardcore player in a hardcore guild, so maybe it’s best we just individually PUG our way to getting our desired armor. Gosh, I’m so sorry I can’t play with you much. Gee, I miss playing with you but this kitten grind is taking forever”.

See the problem? DUNGEON TOKENS MUST SOMEHOW BE UNIVERSAL. Anything less than universal tokens completely punishes casual guilds and friends/family/spouse players, and rewards/enables only hardcore players.

And before any kittening elitist or troll tries to rebut with “only really good players are supposed to be able to earn the prestige dungeon armor or legendary weapons (which require dungeon tokens as a crafting material)”, NO. Stop right there. Because “casual” does not equal “bad”. Casual just means we don’t have the time to do all the social group coordination that loner hardcores can do or that members of large hardcore grind guilds can do. Time is the enemy of the casuals: not total time spent grinding—that’s well within reach of all casuals. Instead, I’m talking about time per play session. When I have to struggle to set aside just enough playtime for one dungeon clear, I can’t afford to sit around spending 20-30 minutes LFG to set up a PUG, nor can I risk ending up in a PUG that will take 2x longer to clear something than it should normally take. Instead, I want to set up with my casual guild mates (or friends/family members) an event ahead of time so that we can log in and hit the ground running immediately.

You are not punished for finishing a dungeon too quickly. The punishment is for doing too many dungeons too quickly. Not saying there isn’t a bug in this, but this is how it’s intended.

People that leveled via dungeons will still have to go back and do all the hearts later to get items for legendary weapons. And they will go do all the skill points also.

I am a little concerned that people that aren’t able to finish a dungeon for various reasons get punished but thank the exploiters for that. The finished dungeon reward should also be determined by completion, not the death of the final boss. Skipping content should invalidate the run, or at least make them go back and complete it. Putting in a event chain across the dungeon, including some of the “trash” would solve this rather than ant-exploit functions that can backfire. Some parts can be left as optional if that’s the design.

Being 1 shot during a fight is a pretty lame mechanic. Doing everything right for 10 minutes, then making 1 mistake and ending up dead is not fun. I understand 50%, maybe even 75% damage, but when the mob can do 125% + damage in 1 shot, that’s just wrong.

Solid changes with some buggy kinks. I believe it fair to require a full clear for rewards and for those who don’t have the foresight to set aside an allocated amount of time for a dungeon then perhaps they shouldn’t go on that run. I also don’t consider it a punishment for clearing to quickly. From all the complaints about difficulty I only see this affecting a minority and to that extent the minority has either grinder their share of items already and now it’s just a matter of vanity farming. Seriously , WTF. You bought the game and they are sculpting it away from the usual grind that is tagged with every mmo

Yep, terrible patch.

This is just like GW1 was: A very good game with a very bad Company/Gamers relationship. And thats cause they wont listen to gamers.

If you dont have dungeons to do, cause they suck for pugs and the rewards are nerfed even when you do diferent paths, you cant go to wvwvw, cause of the queue times over one hour, and you cant make gold so you can buy anything, cause as soon as you find out any way of doing so, it will be nerfed to ground, you would have to make alts, and if im looking for alts at the first month, things are bad. Even SWTOR didnt make me want pve all again so fast.

Seems like doing what they did to Thiefs at GW1 , but global.

I like these changes. It was rather disheartening to see just how many groups did not actually want to do a full dungeon run. People will always take the path of least resistance to the shinies. Hopefully, as far as dungeon rewards go, that path will now be to properly complete said dungeons.

As for the tokens being account-wide now instead of bound to a character, I think that is probably for the best, and the main reason is that, despite developer intent, I am already seeing people request specific classes to join their dungeon groups, and that’s probably only going to get more prevalent over time. Also, someone with a lot of alts can mix things up and play different characters all towards the same goal, which appeals to my altaholic sensibilities.

Oh my dear lord,

“I don’t like the idea that I won’t have the skill to beat part of a game that I bought”

(I’m probably paraphrasing here)

This is either a bad troll, or an epic fail, The answer to your problem is not to nerf the content at that point, but to stop buying video games and instead stick to regular video, ie: Movies, because that’s the difference between the two entertainment forms, there’s even an interactive movie type which will let you push a few buttons and feel like you’re part of the experience.

But, dear lord what sort of an attitude is that for a gamer to have at all, and that’s not elitism by any means I don’t want to stop you reaching that end content, I am not going to insult you and call you what most would think on reading what you wrote because everyone’s opinion matters and instead just tell you that maybe, video games are just not what you’re looking for.

Why would they nerf content just so you can see it? that removes your motivation to get better doesn’t it? that removes the challenge and leaves it bland?

I just don’t understand this way of thinking at all :S

Dokt.5729:

Solid changes with some buggy kinks. I believe it fair to require a full clear for rewards and for those who don’t have the foresight to set aside an allocated amount of time for a dungeon then perhaps they shouldn’t go on that run. I also don’t consider it a punishment for clearing to quickly. From all the complaints about difficulty I only see this affecting a minority and to that extent the minority has either grinder their share of items already and now it’s just a matter of vanity farming. Seriously , WTF. You bought the game and they are sculpting it away from the usual grind that is tagged with every mmo

How is it fair to force people to finish the dungeon to get any rewards? Shouldn’t it also be fair to not allocate any armor repair until you have completed the dungeon so you don’t have to pay for something that you weren’t rewarded for? So I shouldn’t be able to play the game content because I don’t let video games bog down my personal life? Real life > this game. There is no reason a company should punish players that don’t shut out real life while they play the game. This game has a very disgusting balance of casual and hardcore right now that really only appeals to the hardcore gamers.

@Hellkaiser You are definitely paraphrasing. If I buy the content, I want the ABILITY to play through the content with practice. I can’t/won’t look at my previous post but I still believe that you should get what you pay for. Yes, that is called entitlement. Is entitlement always bad? No. If you think it is then I would like to sell you a hamburger. What? You paid for the hamburger but I didn’t give you one? Oh well. Too bad because I decided not to give you your hamburger, and no, you aren’t getting your money back.

I think you should go back to how the game was 2 weeks ago unless you like turning off your player base and making people switch to other games, just saying.

2) Dungeons reward 20 tokens for completion and now reward an additional 40 tokens for the first time they are completed each day.
This should be in addition to what you receive in chests.

This is very true and would be greatly appreciated if you take note to it. It’s not fair whatsoever for us who spend more silver on repairs and our time, but simply cant beat the last part of a dungeon to suffer. This seems silly and needs fixing.

2) Dungeons reward 20 tokens for completion and now reward an additional 40 tokens for the first time they are completed each day.
This should be in addition to what you receive in chests.
This is very true and would be greatly appreciated if you take note to it. It’s not fair whatsoever for us who spend more silver on repairs and our time, but simply cant beat the last part of a dungeon to suffer. This seems silly and needs fixing.

@Lightrayne If it allows you to run dungeons faster and with less repair fees than I’m sure it’s against Anet’s master plan.

Brutal Arts.6307:

@Lightrayne If it allows you to run dungeons faster and with less repair fees than I’m sure it’s against Anet’s master plan.

lol, ^ that made me laugh.

Brutal Arts.6307:

@Lightrayne If it allows you to run dungeons faster and with less repair fees than I’m sure it’s against Anet’s master plan.

Don’t you mean “If it allows you to run dungeons AND have fun, then I’m sure it’s against Anet’s master plan.”?

So I was wondering, will get anything if I already transmutated my Lv. 60 Ghastly Dagger onto a Lv. 80 Exotic Dagger?

Other than that, glad to be able to get 180 tokens for 3 path runs. Hopefully it’ll work correctly for our party.

Done CoF twice with the same party. First time all got 60 badges. Second time I got 15 bagdes, somebody 10, somebody 20. All should got 20.
Screen Note 15 badges on screenshot