Guild Wars 2

I’ve played over a dozen MMO’s in my life, and in many others it seemed you needed a tank, healer and DPS to complete. Anet has decided to forgo this need (much to my happiness) and make it to where it’s the skill of the player, not the class he brings….

Or is it? As my guild gets further in to dungeon runs, we are finding that if you don’t have an Ele for AoE in this one, or a guardian for heals and damage mitigation for this fight, that it’s becoming harder and harder to complete dungeons without a certain few classes.

Is this “Lern To Play Gud” issues or has anyone else found this to be true?

I never feel the need to have a certain profession in the party when doing dungeons. Some party compositions may encounter some additional difficulties in some parts, but not so much that the dungeon couldn’t be completed.

I clicked on this thread expecting something completely different, haha.

In any case, I have not found this. Granted I don’t have the same dungeon experience in the current states of the dungeons as I do from patches ago (yet), but I have always found that you can get it done with the party you have. Certainly you may need to work harder and may have a rough time when comparing one party composition to another, but I have never run into a case (even in PUGs) where my team composition has kept me from completing a run.

I suppose there might be specific comps that would create issues, but it feels like you’d need to either get really unlucky or else try for them.

Bear in mind though, much as you may be happy about not having the trinity anymore, it doesn’t mean that you can all be pure DPS. Every profession has party support & its own support skills. It’s all about the synergy you can achieve with your profession.

Why not rather post your party make-up here and ask advice on how to maximize dungeon success using these particular professions. I think you may get a lot of tips. Mind you, if your group looks on the forums in their relevant profession sub-forum they will find plenty of information as well.

As a sidenote, bear in mind that ppl who say that CoF is the easiest dungeon are the ones that are farming P1 in 6-7mins. The ppl that actually run all 3 paths find that it is more or less as challenging as the other dungeons.

I disagree completely. It’s not a matter of needing one class for anything. It’s a matter of people needing to properly use their skills when they are pertinent to situations/encounters.

I have run so many dungeons with my Guildies and we all play on several different alts and such. We’ve used everything in conjunction with each other and we have never failed to complete any dungeon.

I myself have an Engineer, Necromancer, and Ranger all at 80. These are considered the worst classes in dungeons, and I have completed every single one of them on just about all three. No, not through getting carried. Through knowing what to do on certain encounters, and through teamwork.

Every class can AoE (some better than others) and every class can support (in different ways). You say you need a Guardian for support and heals, why not a Necromancer to weaken the mobs into paste using conditions? Or a Mesmer who can remove, steal and magnify boons the team already has?

Well, for example, I forget which CoF path it was, but we had to keep the NPC alive while clearing a room of spawning mobs and killing assassins every 10% before getting to the boss. We had no problems dropping the assassins in time, but couldn’t survive the respawning mobs banging us around. We had 2 rangers which once dropping their longbow AoE were done for 30 something seconds on any AoE attack except for their drakes, 2 mesmers which once had blown their shatters were out of AoE, and a thief with only their spin 2 win. We were fine for the first 50% but slowly were losing to attrition of health and cooldowns not being available. This is just 1 example, the skelk burrows without AoE or healing are a similar pain in the back side.

Leo G, that’s my point though, why not a necro to do this, or a thief to do this or an ele to do this. You cannot take just any team and do any dungeon (all the trash, full run no skipping things). Maybe it’s the caliber of people I’m playing with, but I consider myself at least as good as if not slightly better than average as are most players I play with, and we just can’t complete certain fights, while doing fine on others.

Sometimes in dungeon parts where you have to protect someone or something for a limited amount of time, you don’t really need to AoE the enemies down. Just tagging their aggro and kiting them can work better in some cases.

I also believe that dungeons can be completed by any mix of classes. However, it is also undeniable that some abilities make certain encounters easier. All classes do not have all of the abilities. For instance, mobs with nasty ranged abilities are more easily dealt with using reflection. Only 5 classes can bring reflection to the table. Some party mixes are going to be AoE light, some party mixes “heal other” light, etc. At that point it’s a matter of what can those classes bring to compensate for the lack of the optimal ability. If the answer is, nothing but skill, that is poor design.

LiquidLeopard.9823:

Well, for example, I forget which CoF path it was, but we had to keep the NPC alive while clearing a room of spawning mobs and killing assassins every 10% before getting to the boss. We had no problems dropping the assassins in time, but couldn’t survive the respawning mobs banging us around. We had 2 rangers which once dropping their longbow AoE were done for 30 something seconds on any AoE attack except for their drakes, 2 mesmers which once had blown their shatters were out of AoE, and a thief with only their spin 2 win. We were fine for the first 50% but slowly were losing to attrition of health and cooldowns not being available.

Why didn’t you just have your Rangers swap to Greatsword, Sword, or Axe? Or why didn’t they have the trait that makes their Arrows pierce?
Why didn’t your Thief swap to Shortbow or Sword?
Why didn’t your Mesmer swap to Sword or use CDs with Greatsword?
I really think that your team should have been thinking about the current encounter and using what fits accordingly. That part of the dungeon is extremely easy now, especially in comparison to what it was like before.

so i agree to a extent some comps are going to be more compatible then others i my self run a mesmer/guardian/3 warrior group and love it its fast and can addapt to any challenge an thats cause we are speced to work together one warriors strait up dps ones shouts an others banners guardian keeps retaliation up constantly and mesmer is dps and time warp. i agree if you pug you can get comps that just dont work well together at all. but for the CoF example just put a tanky person on add duty have them kite them around and smash them while others focus on supporting him by tossing out boons when they see his hp lower but thier focus is killing asassins an if you get agro just kite it you dont have to kill all the adds so needing a aoe isnt nesasary you just gota kill the asassins

2 Rangers? Switch out the elite for Entangle and stagger the cooldown for best effect.
2 Mesmers? Can at least use GS skill 5 to push back/cc the mobs. Put in their utility entangle as well. Can drop their Feedback on the ranged groups as well while kiting
Thieves can kill things so quickly too and use blind on the mobs.

But pretty much all you have to worry on Magg is to nuke the assassins and kite/cc then kill the rest of the mobs.

I haven’t run a dungeon yet where “we need to have one of these to make this work” was a true statement. Some professions will make things easier – But they do just that: Make it easier. You can still get past everything without them.

One of the main things that spring to mind when I run dungeons with random groups isn’t “we need these abilities to fit this strategy”, but rather “How can we succeed with these abilities?”.

We’ll use CM Exp (1/3) as an example. You remember all those trash mobs that just zerg rush you down? How can you deal with that?

Most people say “let’s stealth it!”
Thieves can stealth your party through it.
Mesmers can stealth your party/portal your party past it.

But then people think stealth is required. What about…

Rangers: stacking traps in a chokepoint, causing the enemy to get hold up by immobilize/chill/etc. while you burst them down?

Elementalists can do the same using staff for cripple/frost fields and actual AoE or dagger/focus for projectile negation/invinci and aoes.

Mesmer using temporal curtain to cripple them all? Guardian using line of warding → sanctuary to plug a hole?

Engineer with sticky glue? turrets? frost grenades? flame thrower?

What about hit and run strategies? No one ever said you had to take them all on simultaneously. draw them in, drop major nukes, then retreat and do it again. It gets easier each time – And you won’t have to die to whittle away their numbers in a futile effort to clean them in one shot if your party simply doesn’t seem capable of it.

There’s a lot more than one way to clear content – So when I think of dungeons, I always think of “How can we clear this content with what we have?”. Sometimes changing my perspective of what is required to ‘win’ is all that’s needed. In the end, the end result is X. The methods I use to reach X don’t matter, as long as X is reached.

Certain professions making things easier is just how it is. Even outside of games, you’ll always find that certain things can make certain projects easier to accomplish. They aren’t required, but they help.

So the question boils down to whether you can adapt, or whether you need the help?

This isn’t an implication of bad or good, its just what I feel it comes down to. Some people simply have a hard time adapting – They thrive in familiar atmospheres with plans. Others improvise everything they do.

Which one are you? Which one is your party? That determines whether you ‘need’ a specific profession or not.

At least, that’s my view.

I just did that CoF path 2 room with my thief this afternoon. I don’t often use caltrops with the signet of malice but it worked great there.

Rangers seem like they have great aoe but can fail badly in those mass melees with mobs on every side. The longbow is only good for the rain of arrows and needs to be swapped out immediately afterwards.

You’ve also got some combos there if you need them. The rangers could melee in their healing springs and the thief could drop bombs for area healing on top of them.

No, you don’t “need” those classes, but what you’re noticing is what we call the “dream team” which are certain classes that the dungeons are obviously designed around. If you’re not running this optimal setup dubbed “dream team” you’re going to struggle in most dungeons. Now easy ones like CoF or HotW are the exceptions as they allow for true balanced play and any class can complete them with minimal effort.

I prefer the term “GW2 trinity”.

Ayanavi.1904:

I haven’t run a dungeon yet where “we need to have one of these to make this work” was a true statement. Some professions will make things easier – But they do just that: Make it easier. You can still get past everything without them.

One of the main things that spring to mind when I run dungeons with random groups isn’t “we need these abilities to fit this strategy”, but rather “How can we succeed with these abilities?”.

Kudos for this inclusive approach. However, the Gamer’s Law of the Path of Least Resistance implies that players will find the fastest, easiest way to do something in game, and then implement it. If that means such and such mix of abilities or classes, that’s all some players will want.

LiquidLeopard.9823:

Leo G, that’s my point though, why not a necro to do this, or a thief to do this or an ele to do this. You cannot take just any team and do any dungeon (all the trash, full run no skipping things). Maybe it’s the caliber of people I’m playing with, but I consider myself at least as good as if not slightly better than average as are most players I play with, and we just can’t complete certain fights, while doing fine on others.

Yes, there it is in bold. You can proclaim to have whatever l33t skillz0r, or what have you, but you’re just one of five players in the dungeon. Even one extremely unskilled player is enough to screw up an entire dungeon run. Your dungeon party maybe be made of the most OP flavour-of-the-month professions, but without competent hands driving the characters, they’ll never fare any better.

AlietteFaye.7316:

LiquidLeopard.9823:

Well, for example, I forget which CoF path it was, but we had to keep the NPC alive while clearing a room of spawning mobs and killing assassins every 10% before getting to the boss. We had no problems dropping the assassins in time, but couldn’t survive the respawning mobs banging us around. We had 2 rangers which once dropping their longbow AoE were done for 30 something seconds on any AoE attack except for their drakes, 2 mesmers which once had blown their shatters were out of AoE, and a thief with only their spin 2 win. We were fine for the first 50% but slowly were losing to attrition of health and cooldowns not being available.

Why didn’t you just have your Rangers swap to Greatsword, Sword, or Axe? Or why didn’t they have the trait that makes their Arrows pierce?
Why didn’t your Thief swap to Shortbow or Sword?
Why didn’t your Mesmer swap to Sword or use CDs with Greatsword?
I really think that your team should have been thinking about the current encounter and using what fits accordingly. That part of the dungeon is extremely easy now, especially in comparison to what it was like before.

This. As a player of a profession, you’re being entrusted by your group to know more than the basics of your class. This usually means what and how your profession mechanics work, how your abilities work and the application of those skills and weapons.

In the situation you describe, and the point I was making earlier, having multiple weapons for the situation and being able to swap to them when your ‘build approach’ wouldn’t be optimal is exactly what you’re suppose to do.

The new trinity is support, DPS, and control, which every profession is capable of providing to some extent. We all have our favorite personal builds that we run in the open world, but for dungeons, it’s a game of rock/paper/scissors, so you need to make some sacrifices sometimes if you want to work as a team. If your team is capable of adjusting their skills/weapons that deal with the situation better and complement the capabilities of your team, you should be able to complete any dungeon task.

I find that parties with more than 1 ranger tend to have much less DPS. Not your fault, my ranger brethren

I do love seeing an awesome guardian, ele, or thief in a dungeon.

Don’t kid yourself guys. In the context of dungeons as discussed here, Guild WARS 2 only need one thing – dps. Support build, healing build, all those nonsense has no place in a dungeon in gw2.

edited to add that, if you bring a support, healing or one of those nonsensical build into my team you’re getting kicked. no offence.

abelooi.9156:

Don’t kid yourself guys. In the context of dungeons as discussed here, Guild WARS 2 only need one thing – dps. Support build, healing build, all those nonsense has no place in a dungeon in gw2.

edited to add that, if you bring a support, healing or one of those nonsensical build into my team you’re getting kicked. no offence.

And there you have it,the dungeon community in a nutshell.

Derelyk.2719:

abelooi.9156:

Don’t kid yourself guys. In the context of dungeons as discussed here, Guild WARS 2 only need one thing – dps. Support build, healing build, all those nonsense has no place in a dungeon in gw2.

edited to add that, if you bring a support, healing or one of those nonsensical build into my team you’re getting kicked. no offence.

And there you have it,the dungeon community in a nutshell.

I’m play a lot of dungeons, but unless it’s CoF path 1, this guy doesn’t speak for me. He sure as hell doesn’t speak for my guild.

I have a feeling he runs CoF path 1 a lot…

I run DPS War with shout buffs and soldier runes for party wide condition removal…so yea, I support.

abelooi.9156:

Don’t kid yourself guys. In the context of dungeons as discussed here, Guild WARS 2 only need one thing – dps. Support build, healing build, all those nonsense has no place in a dungeon in gw2.

edited to add that, if you bring a support, healing or one of those nonsensical build into my team you’re getting kicked. no offence.

You forgot to add the detail “when everyone is strong in performance” i.e. they know how to dodge and when to dodge.

If you can’t do that near perfectly, you’re just dead weight…literally. Having a high DPS team that falls over dead the instance they get focused on is a dungeon team that won’t beat anything.

Vorch.2985:

Derelyk.2719:

abelooi.9156:

Don’t kid yourself guys. In the context of dungeons as discussed here, Guild WARS 2 only need one thing – dps. Support build, healing build, all those nonsense has no place in a dungeon in gw2.

edited to add that, if you bring a support, healing or one of those nonsensical build into my team you’re getting kicked. no offence.

And there you have it,the dungeon community in a nutshell.

I’m play a lot of dungeons, but unless it’s CoF path 1, this guy doesn’t speak for me. He sure as hell doesn’t speak for my guild.

I have a feeling he runs CoF path 1 a lot…

I run DPS War with shout buffs and soldier runes for party wide condition removal…so yea, I support.

That’s still a dps build. A game of GW2’s nature means every class bring every freaking thing to a team. So nobody should have a sorry excuse of a build like full support or healing build or all those crap. Everyone should have more than average dps.

And if you’ve done enough dungeons everywhere, you’ll know only dps is useful. As what Leo G said once you know what to do and is competent the only reasonable thing to pimp is your dps since you don’t die that often anymore and do not need to compensate for that lack of skills with utilities.

also it makes sense. Literally every attack in this game except Maw’s agony can be dodged, prevented, kited (one way or another). Hence it makes sense to take them down asap before they take you down. It is a valid strategy, both online and real life. It also has that advantage of being speedier than tankish and living forever but take a bazillion years to kill a sheep.

I know everyone supports one way or another. I was referring to people who run uber warrior healing builds or pure support thief or kitten like that. Everyone should be self-sufficient and contribute directly to the dps of the team. Support should be minimal and be viewed as a bonus.

Arah p4 is the only dung that requires certain classes/builds. Everything else can be completed easily with any comp.

OP, I have had experiences with multiple different team combinations – many with only medium armors or lower. The only reason why the team fails is due to build synergy or someone making a major mistake. I personally think if a person is not willing to swap builds / traits before a dungeon, or during a dungeon, also not willing to equip a 3rd or 4th weapon set at times is foolish to think they can finish a dungeon just as good as a coordinated team. TEAM COORDINATION is the most important aspect of dungeon running – an ideal team just has a ton more leeway and knows exactly what to expect from one another.

Running 2 mesmers in a group allows them to cycle through some of their very powerful skills such as feedback and temportal curtain. It also increases the amount of targets that mobs hit by a factor of 2. Rangers help with their pets aggroing as well, but really shine in trapping for AoE. Thiefs are very very good for single target DPS and avoiding damage from mobs.

Combine all elements in the defend mag path 2 room:

Mesmers on clone duty – do NOT use shatters (utlize the clone on kill give a random condi to all in 300 units), using temporal curtain to first cripple the assassin then using it again to pull the other mobs so the team can hit the assasin uninterrupted. Mesmers can swap to GS for the cripple on throw, but staff is better in that you phase retreat, chaos storm, and chaos armor (CS + whirl = mass confusion which will kill mobs in 5-10 seconds).

Rangers on trapping / light AoE duty – pets used to tank swapping out as nessesary, traps used when the mesmer temporal curtains mobs so that the mobs can be chilled / poisioned and eventually killed by 2x light ranger AoE

Thief on main target DPS dodge tanker – As the main DPS the thief must stay alive and dodge often (caltrops on dodge helps here) and after mesmers use curtain the thief should unload, spin2win or chain the dagger storm skill.

Those tactics should work with substantial self heals and some consumables (YES use consumables please).

Yes, the game definatly is for casuals.
Nobody is forcing you to grind for legendaries or something like that.
Its up to you as a player and even if you want such an item then it will just take longer as someone that plays the game a lot. Nothing wrong with that tbh.

Leo G.4501:

Every class can AoE (some better than others) and every class can support (in different ways). You say you need a Guardian for support and heals, why not a Necromancer to weaken the mobs into paste using conditions? Or a Mesmer who can remove, steal and magnify boons the team already has?

that’s only true in theory. in practice some classes have better synergy then others.

i myself play a guardian and have indeed found that having healing oriented elementalist is a wonderful thing. and so is having a mesmer – for time warp.

it can’t be denied that guardian/elementalist/warrior/mesmer make up a kind of a “dream team”. all too often are necromancers and rangers (and sometimes even thieves) are left out shimmering in the cold when it comes to “purrrfect composition for high fractals”.

man it would be so cool if dungeons were challenging, had interesting mechanics, and took skill… but i’m a dreamer