Guardian: Enduring Vision
Necromancer: Empty Cartridge
Server: Jade Quarry
Necromancer: Empty Cartridge
Server: Jade Quarry
(edited by DogCompany.1062)
Dungeons and Berserkers
Berserk Class characters.
Because A.Net seems to have problems with the class balance and since those balance patches take ~4 months each I don’t see that problem to be solved any time soon.
GuildWars 2
Currently playing Heart of Thorns.
Currently playing Heart of Thorns.
Simple answer: most enemies do so much damage it makes defensive stats mostly useless. It is a “kill them fast or get killed” situation. There is also a thing called “dodging” that exists in the game, where a timely dodge nullifies all damage that would otherwise kill you.
Because the dev team that was balancing dungeons was allegedly dissolved and no one is handling improvement of dungeons.
a shard of crystal in the desert.
Look, there are countless other threads about this. You seem like a reasonable guy/gal OP. Please check those out and read up. I really do believe you’re actually curious.
The fewer threads like this, the better. It just opens up to too many unreasonable people and very much QQ.
I could sum it up in just a few words.
The game has been out for over 1.5 years now. People changed and improved. Dungeons did not.
A remnant of times past.
“Memories are nice, but that’s all they are.”
“Memories are nice, but that’s all they are.”
Some players do dungeons in uncoordinated groups that do not make use of group buffs and defenses, that avoid the higher damage of melee, and that allow people to use whatever gear they want. Those groups find dungeon challenge to be considerably higher. They also take longer.
The groups that are following the dungeon meta are likely to know the dungeon by heart, and are doing them for rewards (or kicks), and are not as tolerant of inefficiency.
Why does a game ever require a tank? Think about it.
Shouldn’t mobs always attack the player that’s the biggest threat? The one dealing he most damage, instead of the big guy in armor dealing zero damage?
Tanks exist only because of the particular aggro mechanics a game implements. Games like WoW, TOR, etc have easily controllable aggro mechanics which tanks use to control damage. Healers keep the tanks alive, and DPS kills the mobs. That’s the Trinity of MMOs.
Now, is this necessary? Absolutely not—get rid of easily controlled aggro, and this all falls apart. This is why guild wars has no trinity— as soon as you take away the ability to reliably tank, everyone should focus on DPS to kill before they are killed. So that’s the way the game is played now. There is still plenty of class differentiaton— elementalists play different roles from thieves, who are very different from warriors/guards. Defensive abilities like reflects which keep the team alive are VERY important— this is similar to tanking, but more active. But because there is no aggro, there is no real tank, and there is no healer role in the game.
It’s a different philosophy of game design. The roles of dps/tank/healer are old and boring, and done to death by other games. I’m glad gw2 does something different, and promotes different types of class variety. (Though we could always use more— condition could be improved, etc.)
Hello Guild Wars Community,
I’m sure everyone has noticed how simple Dungeons have become and the high demand for Damage (Berserker) Class characters. My issue regarding this topic is not the Dungeons, but the ability to complete a Dungeon within minutes with Berserk Class characters.
I have spoken with other fans of MMOs and League of Legends was mentioned. I am not a player of League of Legends and know nothing about the game, but what they described to me was that each party needed particular classes in order to complete Dungeons and obtain the reward. They informed me that it is recommended that a Healer, Tank, Damage, Range, etc, is necessary to complete any Dungeon. So, I thought to myself, “How come Guild Wars 2 doesn’t have something similar?” This is where the discussion of the topic begins.
I understand the flexibility of each class and the chosen profession. I understand that the creators of Guild Wars 2 did not have the desire to restrict players to one particular play-style. In the end, my question still stands. Why are the Dungeons so simple to the point where no defense is necessary to complete? Why is it that one profession, or one build, complete Dungeons almost effortlessly?
Since this is my first committed MMO, my goal here is not to criticize Guild Wars 2, I enjoy Guilds Wars 2 much so that if this topic can enlighten new ideas to the game that maybe players may not be restricted to the social norm, and that it may bring new experiences to current and upcoming Guild Wars 2 players.
Thank you for your attention and please leave any comments.
Respectfully,
DogCompany
Hmm, few things:
1-Tank/dmg/healer is an archaic playstyle that most people have grown tired of. One major selling point of gw2 is the removal of said trinity as it has one main flaw-you’ll spend hours waiting to go into a dungeon ‘LF healer/tank’ <-infamous group advertisement (most players play damage classes as opposed to tank/healers). That SHOULD allow for some new, interesting mechanics…but…well…run-to-corner-stack-auto-attack-win!.
2-Defense is required, but it’s not stat based. Defense here comes from dodging, blocks/invulnerability, reflects and blinds. These things have nothing to do with defensive stats such as healing, armor or hp so…well…they are more or less pointless (to my everlasting disappointment).The result is since defensive stats have no impact on defense you might as well pour them into offensive stats to kill things faster and pick the one or two skills that give the defense you need.
3-Finally, when you limit yourself in such a way that all dungeons must be cleared by all classes (another selling point of this game), this is what you get. I don’t think anyone who’ve played older mmorpgs can say the dungeons there (when you actually got to do them) weren’t a lot more interesting than the ‘advanced’ dungeons here. Because older title actually had a system in place dungeons were designed in such a way as to be puzzles to be solved-and the tank/healer/dps/control (in later mmorpgs) was the tool players had to use. GW2 has no system so dungeons are mostly ‘stack on this mob, spam blinds/reflect (<-occassionally you need to pay the bare minimum of attention for this) and auto attack to win-oh and become invincible in whichever way makes you feel heroic when you see red circles’. STRATEGY! SUCH DEXTERITY! That’d be fine for a dungeon or two…but for virtually every one? Meh….
Personally I’d even add their focus on pvp into the reasons why dungeons leave much to be desired. Again, comparing cc in older trinity based mmorpgs-fear with 6s base duration isn’t surprising, likewise 3s base stuns. With these in place you can have encounters where cc players in the dungeon group incapacitates mobs to allow the run to succeed. Here? Well…what the hell are you going to do with a 1s fear and 1/2s stun on 30s cd? It works fine for pvp, but in pve it literally shuts down any form of control spec. As if that’s not enough of a reason to not try any cc-heavy spec…there’s good old defiance stacks on bosses.
Basically they wanted to differentiate this title from typical mmorpgs and one way was removing the trinity-and consequently any related strategies/gameplay…unfortunately they forgot to replace the trinity with something and that’s why dungeons are in their current state.
When free speech ends, tyranny begins.
The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their proper name.
The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their proper name.
ANet has been hung up on “active combat” with the design of GW2. And this has taken on a very hamfisted form in the PVE design.
There mobs are designed so that most of their damage is in a periodic spike attack that everyone, bunker or zerker alike, are expected to dodge/block/interrupt rather than take to the face and heal out of.
End result is that it is safer to go full on offensive, as a dead enemy do not spike. And the faster you kill it the less number of times you have to evade that spike. And with less spikes, there is less of a chance of someone messing up and the fighting going pear shaped.
Because A.Net seems to have problems with the class balance and since those balance patches take ~4 months each I don’t see that problem to be solved any time soon.
More like the balance team is myopically preoccupied with SPVP corner cases, and in SPVP bunkers do just fine.
Well, I consider people who finished CM path 3 in 3 minutes 33 seconds have done a ‘monumental and important feat’. What they have accomplished is not only their thorough understanding of the dungeons but also skillful display of their classes and group syngergy.
To me, the challenge is what makes this game fun. Don’t dumb it down, please.
“Raids are like fortune cookies. You eat the cookie and then read the paper scraps.”
- doranduck, 2016 on Lore in Raids
- doranduck, 2016 on Lore in Raids
Simple answer: most enemies do so much damage it makes defensive stats mostly useless. It is a “kill them fast or get killed” situation. There is also a thing called “dodging” that exists in the game, where a timely dodge nullifies all damage that would otherwise kill you.
This. Exclusively this.
Whilst not a dungeon, just go into a 80 zone and kill random mobs.
Do this with soldier’s gear, then do it with berserker gear.
You’ll never use anything other than berserker again.
The roles of dps/tank/healer are old and boring, and done to death by other games. (Though we could always use more— condition could be improved, etc.)
I understand that this game doesn’t need Tanks/Healers and that was definitely a topic that concerned me the most. First, I enjoyed playing the role as Healer. I don’t mind having others do the majority of the Damage. Since that was my first build as a Guardian, it quickly grew outdated and unwanted as Guild Wars 2 became more populated. Therefore, I was forced to change to a different build and train myself in that new combat style that the majority of players prefer or else threaten dismal from the party.
So, in the end, has Guild Wars 2 become such a linear game, in which, players must continue to update their build, play-style, and meet a standard to enjoy the game?
Guardian: Enduring Vision
Necromancer: Empty Cartridge
Server: Jade Quarry
Necromancer: Empty Cartridge
Server: Jade Quarry
(edited by DogCompany.1062)
I can’t think of a single instance of this game requiring any form of skill.
do you do dungeons with pugs?
End result is that it is safer to go full on offensive, as a dead enemy do not spike. And the faster you kill it the less number of times you have to evade that spike.
This is the issue I am trying to expose to the Guild Wars Community and some may not realize it just yet. At this time, it requires less tactics to complete Dungeons, which is unfortunate. Don’t get me wrong. I do not want dungeons to take longer, but at the same time you are earning Gear/Items that is one level below from Ascended Gear/Items.
Would it make more sense if Dungeons required more tactics, or profession combination, in order to obtain such an item?
Guardian: Enduring Vision
Necromancer: Empty Cartridge
Server: Jade Quarry
Necromancer: Empty Cartridge
Server: Jade Quarry
Rule 1 of any MMO: NEVER pug. The fact that pugs can even succeed at all proves my point.
I always PUG.
" X Path/EXP/DPS Only"
The roles of dps/tank/healer are old and boring, and done to death by other games. (Though we could always use more— condition could be improved, etc.)
I understand that this game doesn’t need Tanks/Healers and that was definitely a topic that concerned me the most. First, I enjoyed playing the role as Healer. I don’t mind having others do the majority of the Damage. Since that was my first build as a Guardian, it quickly grew outdated and unwanted as Guild Wars 2 became more populated. Therefore, I was forced to change to a different build and train myself in that new combat style that the majority of players prefer or else threaten dismal from the party.
So, in the end, has Guild Wars 2 become such a linear game, in which, players must continue to update their build, play-style, and meet a standard to enjoy the game?
That’s about my problem with the whole Zerker thing. If you want to play in some way other then the current DPS meta, you’ll have difficulty finding a party. Shame too because this linearity exactly what a lot of players came to GW2 to escape. This mentality is largely driven by players’ desire for gold gain.
I can think of 3 solutions off the top of my head.
1) Increase the difficulty of dungeons to the point that full Zerker parties won’t work.
2) Add challenges that target specific skillsets
3) Make the dungeon rewards undesirable to farmers
Registered Altaholic
Part-time Kittenposter
Part-time Kittenposter
I don’t like running Zerker gear, but I want to finish the tediously long boss fights as fast as it’s possible.
Those Boses probably have tens of millions HP. It’s ridiculous.
Not to mention bosses are static, doesn’t move, just soak up the damage and use badly telegraphed one shot mechanics. (Can you actually see the incoming one shots through the skill effect cluster*?"
Berserker gear is found to be elite because either the boss does so much damage that defensive stats make a minimal difference…..or there are mechanics that one shot you unless you dodge roll
there is also the dodge roll itself, the only useful defensive “stat”, why go for defensive stats in your gear to minimize damage taken, when you can just gear straight dps and then go heavy endurance in your build and dodge roll all the time to negate ALL dmg taken?
Zerk groups don’t use “defence” or “support”? You mean aside from cc, blocks, reflects, blinds, stability, active defence, spike, ret and boons?
Yes going full glass, knowing what you are doing, running in a coordinated group and using ACTIVE support/defence is so much worse/“linear” than facetanking in PVT or standing at the back in clerics spamming shout heals.
(edited by Fenrir.3609)
Why are the Dungeons so simple to the point where no defense is necessary to complete? Why is it that one profession, or one build, complete Dungeons almost effortlessly?
But you do need defense…. Dodges, blinds, blocks, aegis, inv frame skills etc. are all active defenses, you cannot survive and face tank in berserkers if you do not learn to use those defenses.
I think you’re not seeing the whole picture, all content can be cleared by almost any build, the bottom line is do you want to exert the effort to actively defend yourself or facetank and take defensive traits/gear.
If one professions/build complete dungeons effortlessly, you’d see meta builds in every run you do, but you don’t.
Not all people can pull it off, not all people know mechanics of the dungeon to survive and so on. Some are lazy to push more buttons aside from 1, some just don’t care etc. but these guys still clear content effortlessly(although taking alot more time to do so).
It’s a matter of choice and skill.
1) Increase the difficulty of dungeons to the point that full Zerker parties won’t work.
2) Add challenges that target specific skillsets
3) Make the dungeon rewards undesirable to farmers
1) If a party full of Zerkers can’t do a dungeon due to it’s difficulty, people using other gear won’t be able to do it either. People always forget that a full zerker can use boons, buff, reflect, blind and cc the same way as the other gearsets can do.
2) There are already parts in dungeons that can be made easier with certain skillsets, for example places where projectile reflection works great, or shadow refugee, or mass stability, or mass condition removal. The point is, those skillsets are available to zerkers too, zerkers can use all skills in the game with equal strength as the other gearsets, while also providing way more damage. What’s there to fix?
3) How is that going to work? So you mean, they should leave the dungeons only to those who want to experience their epic story, staying 2-3 hours in a dungeon path to see what happens next and what awesome dialogues and epic bosses follow? Nobody would ever do dungeons if that happened.
Yes going full glass, knowing what you are doing, running in a coordinated group and using ACTIVE support/defence is so much worse/“linear” than facetanking in PVT or standing at the back in clerics spamming shout heals.
This ^^
So people just want to facetank content with PVT gear, without using active support skills, without dodging, just tanking and healing like in trinity games, and for some weird reason they see that as better than the zerker meta?
So you want to just spam1 and do the dungeons? The spam1 and get loot content is everywhere else in the game, go do that.
the kitten TRUTH
^ this.
The thing is, if you want every dungeon to be doable by every class combination, then no skill any class has can make a real difference. If you add the fact that conditions don’t work as expected (should put out more damage than direct damage in long fights), then the best thing you can do is stack 5 zerkers doing insane burst.
I only run dungeons for the gold when I want to try a new build. Otherwise, it’s as rewarding as throwing a coin.
So people just want to facetank content with PVT gear, without using active support skills, without dodging, just tanking and healing like in trinity games, and for some weird reason they see that as better than the zerker meta?
So you want to just spam1 and do the dungeons? The spam1 and get loot content is everywhere else in the game, go do that.
Actually it’s much more easier to not understand these things and just spew out hatred while demanding anet change the game to suit one’s own needs instead of like, not being bad.* Some people think damage and support are somehow mutually exclusive when the game’s designed for them to not.
There’s nothing particularly wrong with zerker being the best gearset. But then again is it really ok to have one good set of “high risk high reward” and then to have a bunch of “dubiously lower risk, low reward” or “high risk negative rewards” (conditions)? I guess we still have WvW.
*Some people might object to this, but if you are unable to use pattern recognition and make use of the game’s mechanics to avoid damage in certain content after multiple tries, then objectively speaking, you are bad in that particular context. The only thing that matters when it comes to ability is efficiency in being able to complete it. It doesn’t mean you are bad in all areas of the game, and honestly nobody really cares about skills in a video game. But you are still bad. You have a right to disagree with the game’s concept of skills to emphasize and choose to refuse to partake in such content. But if you are unable to deal with it, then you are bad.
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards,
for there you have been and there you will long to return.
for there you have been and there you will long to return.
(edited by ArchonWing.9480)
The roles of dps/tank/healer are old and boring, and done to death by other games. (Though we could always use more— condition could be improved, etc.)
I understand that this game doesn’t need Tanks/Healers and that was definitely a topic that concerned me the most. First, I enjoyed playing the role as Healer. I don’t mind having others do the majority of the Damage. Since that was my first build as a Guardian, it quickly grew outdated and unwanted as Guild Wars 2 became more populated. Therefore, I was forced to change to a different build and train myself in that new combat style that the majority of players prefer or else threaten dismal from the party.
So, in the end, has Guild Wars 2 become such a linear game, in which, players must continue to update their build, play-style, and meet a standard to enjoy the game?
That’s about my problem with the whole Zerker thing. If you want to play in some way other then the current DPS meta, you’ll have difficulty finding a party. Shame too because this linearity exactly what a lot of players came to GW2 to escape. This mentality is largely driven by players’ desire for gold gain.
I can think of 3 solutions off the top of my head.
1) Increase the difficulty of dungeons to the point that full Zerker parties won’t work.
2) Add challenges that target specific skillsets
3) Make the dungeon rewards undesirable to farmers
Actually you won’t have difficulty. I write “lfm p2 anyone welcome” in Arah every day and get full groups very quickly with no gear checks, no pings.
Regarding point 1), if you increase the difficulty of dungeons to the point that full berserker parties don’t work, you end up with content that basically none of your casual players will be able to complete. In DnT, we make use of a guardian in knights gear for fractal 49/50 (i.e. not a full berserker party), but guess what pugs do? Range (or if possible, bug) every single boss. Circle kiting for half an hour is not interesting, and you know it isn’t.
2) This is already the case. Thieves can shadow refuge or blast smoke screen for area stealth, if you need to get through somewhere fast, an ele can drop an FGS for the extra mobility. If you don’t have a thief, you need your guardian providing area stability for the final Arah p2 trash skip if your party doesn’t have enough of it themselves.
3) This is impossible. Dungeons will always be farmed for rewards, no matter what game, you will never “fix this”.
To absolutely nobody’s surprise, this is another thread about an imagined problem, once again talking about berserker gear being bad and lacking skill. Well if you want to talk about it being a lack of skill, pug Arah with me, hopefully getting a party of berserkers and watch how wide the skill gap is when I pull off skips first try and evade dangerous mechanics quicker, or even simply evading them in the first place while the pugs die over and over again. I pug Arah every single day looking for bad groups to carry, and they’re always in abundance.
Rezardi – [DnT]
Game over, yo.
Game over, yo.
I have spoken with other fans of MMOs and League of Legends
Think action game rather than MOBA or traditional mmos, since gw2 was designed (supposed to be) as an action mmo.
If you don’t like running zerk, you can party with like-minded people who wears whatever gear they want. If you want to be efficient and fast meta-builds and gear are publicly available.
Basically it’s just different crowds.
If people say it’s difficult finding a non-zerk party they’re lying or aren’t even putting ANY effort in doing so. I will bet 1000g that i can get a party in <5minutes for arah that is non-meta. Doesn’t take much to start your own LFG.
Why people find it boring is not really due to the gear/build sets, it’s more of the boss encounters and AI lacking variety in their movesets and behaviour.
(edited by Bread.7516)
I could sum it up in just a few words.
The game has been out for over 1.5 years now. People changed and improved. Dungeons did not.
Yeah, I remember my first steps into GW2 Dungeons.
It was brutal. People were wiping left and right during the release months.
It wasn’t until maybe 6-8 months ago that people realized DPS is all that matters and the meta evolved.
It wasn’t until maybe 6-8 months ago that people realized DPS is all that matters and the meta evolved.
Except it’s not what they realized. If it was true, why would anyone ever take a guardian? There are better offensive professions.
Hello Guild Wars Community,
I’m sure everyone has noticed how simple Dungeons have become and the high demand for Damage (Berserker) Class characters. My issue regarding this topic is not the Dungeons, but the ability to complete a Dungeon within minutes with Berserk Class characters.
I have spoken with other fans of MMOs and League of Legends was mentioned. I am not a player of League of Legends and know nothing about the game, but what they described to me was that each party needed particular classes in order to complete Dungeons and obtain the reward. They informed me that it is recommended that a Healer, Tank, Damage, Range, etc, is necessary to complete any Dungeon. So, I thought to myself, “How come Guild Wars 2 doesn’t have something similar?” This is where the discussion of the topic begins.
I understand the flexibility of each class and the chosen profession. I understand that the creators of Guild Wars 2 did not have the desire to restrict players to one particular play-style. In the end, my question still stands. Why are the Dungeons so simple to the point where no defense is necessary to complete? Why is it that one profession, or one build, complete Dungeons almost effortlessly?
Since this is my first committed MMO, my goal here is not to criticize Guild Wars 2, I enjoy Guilds Wars 2 much so that if this topic can enlighten new ideas to the game that maybe players may not be restricted to the social norm, and that it may bring new experiences to current and upcoming Guild Wars 2 players.
Thank you for your attention and please leave any comments.
Respectfully,
DogCompany
Dungeons are NOT so simple that no defense alone will get you a successful speed clear.
You must not have been here when the game launched.
The dungeons are simple because any decent player KNOWS THEM BY HEART NOW. And that means you can avoid A TON of damage and other issues just because you’re experienced.
Also players have gotten good with dodges, their own class and build, and are now generally MUCH more effective.
Dungeons were designed to be medium-hard to complete ON release. Not 1+ years after.
You want harder content? Go do fractals at level 30+.
Dungeons are designed in such a way that NO MATTER HOW BAD YOU ARE you will still complete it if you keep trying. That means that a VERY GOOD GROUP will breeze right on through. Regardless of gear – but zerker will make it the fastest.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
it’s because PvE in this game is terrible (also bad in any game). However if you get to the high end of open field PvP (WvW) class specs really do become important and vital to a team/guild. A guardian/Warrior will most likely build as tanky as possible though sometimes they will build more damage if they want to go high risk high reward. A skilled elementalist will go zerker whereas a lower skilled ele will usually go knights for that survivability. With necro’s there are so much variations in builds it’s redicilous. If you want theorycrafting you’re looking at the wrong place, league of legends is a PvP game you’re vsing smart people not AI same as in WvW you’re vsing skilled opponents not AI so you need the defense stats.
Roosters Inc-Team Shatter [TS] Commander
Sea of Sorrows http://www.gw2sos.com/index.php
Sea of Sorrows http://www.gw2sos.com/index.php
End result is that it is safer to go full on offensive, as a dead enemy do not spike. And the faster you kill it the less number of times you have to evade that spike.
This is the issue I am trying to expose to the Guild Wars Community and some may not realize it just yet. At this time, it requires less tactics to complete Dungeons, which is unfortunate. Don’t get me wrong. I do not want dungeons to take longer, but at the same time you are earning Gear/Items that is one level below from Ascended Gear/Items.
Would it make more sense if Dungeons required more tactics, or profession combination, in order to obtain such an item?
Increase a dungeon’s difficulty and you’ll turn it into a ghost town. There are a LOT of dungeon paths that nobody does and the reason for that is that they aren’t speedy enough.
The roles of dps/tank/healer are old and boring, and done to death by other games. (Though we could always use more— condition could be improved, etc.)
I understand that this game doesn’t need Tanks/Healers and that was definitely a topic that concerned me the most. First, I enjoyed playing the role as Healer. I don’t mind having others do the majority of the Damage. Since that was my first build as a Guardian, it quickly grew outdated and unwanted as Guild Wars 2 became more populated. Therefore, I was forced to change to a different build and train myself in that new combat style that the majority of players prefer or else threaten dismal from the party.
So, in the end, has Guild Wars 2 become such a linear game, in which, players must continue to update their build, play-style, and meet a standard to enjoy the game?
Yes – in ANY game you have to keep up with the other people doing the content.
You can’t expect to go away from any form of human activity for a long time and not have some catching up to do when you get back into it.
If you want to be effective you have to play what people have found to be most effective. And you have to do that IF you want to play with the players that VALUE effectiveness ( the majority of the player base).
If you don’t care about effectiveness you can bring any build or play anything you want if you find similarly minded individuals. Or new players that don’t know what’s what yet.
Just don’t call the game broken because you don’t want to put in the effort to party up with people that actually CARE about doing good in dungeons.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
The roles of dps/tank/healer are old and boring, and done to death by other games. (Though we could always use more— condition could be improved, etc.)
I understand that this game doesn’t need Tanks/Healers and that was definitely a topic that concerned me the most. First, I enjoyed playing the role as Healer. I don’t mind having others do the majority of the Damage. Since that was my first build as a Guardian, it quickly grew outdated and unwanted as Guild Wars 2 became more populated. Therefore, I was forced to change to a different build and train myself in that new combat style that the majority of players prefer or else threaten dismal from the party.
So, in the end, has Guild Wars 2 become such a linear game, in which, players must continue to update their build, play-style, and meet a standard to enjoy the game?
That’s about my problem with the whole Zerker thing. If you want to play in some way other then the current DPS meta, you’ll have difficulty finding a party. Shame too because this linearity exactly what a lot of players came to GW2 to escape. This mentality is largely driven by players’ desire for gold gain.
I can think of 3 solutions off the top of my head.
1) Increase the difficulty of dungeons to the point that full Zerker parties won’t work.
2) Add challenges that target specific skillsets
3) Make the dungeon rewards undesirable to farmers
1) that’s biased, hateful and unfair. Why should that be the case? Why shouldn’t Cleric’s be unable to complete dungeons?
Just because zerker is most effective at clearing a dungeon doesn’t mean it will not immediately be replaced by a new meta the moment it is no longer the best possible alternative.
Zerker isn’t a gear set friend, it’s a state of mind.
2)Could work, but most player won’t bother.
3)Then who’ll do your dungeons?
Do you remember how much people did dungeons before the 1+ gold reward system was implemented?
People did CoF P1 – TO FARM. And pretty much none of the other dungeons because they weren’t worth it.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
as mentioned, Guild Wars entire combat system was built around NOT having a tank healer dps… or what is known as the holy trinity. And in league of legends you need a a good jungler (Normally tanky dps), a good AD (Attack DMG) carry, and rest is whatever. You do not in anyway need a healer aka or support. Sonna is nice to have though only one team gets her. anyway now that we derailed this…. yeah totally different games.
“How come Guild Wars 2 doesn’t have something similar?”
GW2 don’t use that system because it was the point of GW2 not to use it. Its the usual MMO system that all MMO use. This system have some pros and cons and GW2 tried to give a better system than the Trinity. It was an half success. Its way easier to create a party, you can pretty much play with whatever profession you want, everybody is to blame so no more ‘’Healer WTF you didn’t heal me’’. But at the same time, the game end up with 1 role ‘’Direct Damage Melee DPS’’ and everythings else is sub-optimal in PvE. Some prefer the trinity, but the Trinity is old system that is as improve as it can be, and won’t evolve much more in the future. The GW2 system have huge flaw, but people still see numerous ways to improve it, which is a good sign.
Why are the Dungeons so simple to the point where no defense is necessary to complete? Why is it that one profession, or one build, complete Dungeons almost effortlessly?
That’s not totally true. No passive defense is needed to complete it. You use active defense to survive aka dodge, evade, invulnerability, block, etc. You can’t face tank a dungeon if you are in full DPS. When i play with my guildmates we are doing full DPS run and i can tell you that with pugs i rarely see full DPS group. You can have 1, 2 or even 3 full DPS, but its rare that you see more than that. Most people do dungeon with a mix of DPS and Hybrid, which make things easier, but longer. Not that many people can actually run full DPS except maybe on Warrior. On the forum here you have the impression that everybody is saying full DPS all the ways, but like i said i see way more hybrid than full DPS build when i pugs.
Thaddeauz [xQCx]- QC GUILD
Simple answer: most enemies do so much damage it makes defensive stats mostly useless. It is a “kill them fast or get killed” situation. There is also a thing called “dodging” that exists in the game, where a timely dodge nullifies all damage that would otherwise kill you.
This
Look, there are countless other threads about this. You seem like a reasonable guy/gal OP. Please check those out and read up. I really do believe you’re actually curious.
The fewer threads like this, the better. It just opens up to too many unreasonable people and very much QQ.
And this.
/thread
RNG is a bell curve. Better hope you’re on the right side.
I could sum it up in just a few words.
The game has been out for over 1.5 years now. People changed and improved. Dungeons did not.
um yea dungeons kittenin changed.
MARATHON CIV 5 DIFFICULTY 10 STILL GOING
Thaddeus explained it well. The intentional design of no Trinity has its pros & cons, just as having the Trinity does. Personally, I prefer no Trinity, but feel that the dungeons themselves need to be redesigned. Since it’s the intent of Anet to have every class be able to deal damage, avoid damage, and support a team, dungeons should require more of the latter and less of the former. Damaging attacks should be more frequent and hit for less damage so-as to make defensive stats/gear a viable choice. Also, encounters should be designed so that support skills are required, but broadly so that they don’t force a specific class. Periodic reflects, for instance, can be done by almost every class.
Flixx Gatebuster, Orwynn Lightgrave, Seras Snapdragon
[TTBH] [HATE], Yak’s Bend(NA)
[TTBH] [HATE], Yak’s Bend(NA)
Do you want a boss with frequent attacks and hits for less? Mossman with weakness applied to him hits for like 3k at Fractal 49. However he also hits quite often and has a multitude of attacks (dancing dagger is like 8k and his double chop is basically a one-shot).
Guess what pugs do? Bug him out and afk range.
Be careful what you wish for, you’ll make dungeons terribly boring if you get what you want.
Spoiler – dungeon guilds use full berserker for this fight too.
Rezardi – [DnT]
Game over, yo.
Game over, yo.
I could sum it up in just a few words.
The game has been out for over 1.5 years now. People changed and improved. Dungeons did not.
um yea dungeons kittenin changed.
Are the encounters still the same? For the most part, yes. Are today’s tactics different from those used a year ago? Yes.
My point stands.
A remnant of times past.
“Memories are nice, but that’s all they are.”
“Memories are nice, but that’s all they are.”
The roles of dps/tank/healer are old and boring, and done to death by other games. (Though we could always use more— condition could be improved, etc.)
I understand that this game doesn’t need Tanks/Healers and that was definitely a topic that concerned me the most. First, I enjoyed playing the role as Healer. I don’t mind having others do the majority of the Damage. Since that was my first build as a Guardian, it quickly grew outdated and unwanted as Guild Wars 2 became more populated. Therefore, I was forced to change to a different build and train myself in that new combat style that the majority of players prefer or else threaten dismal from the party.
So, in the end, has Guild Wars 2 become such a linear game, in which, players must continue to update their build, play-style, and meet a standard to enjoy the game?
That’s about my problem with the whole Zerker thing. If you want to play in some way other then the current DPS meta, you’ll have difficulty finding a party. Shame too because this linearity exactly what a lot of players came to GW2 to escape. This mentality is largely driven by players’ desire for gold gain.
I can think of 3 solutions off the top of my head.
1) Increase the difficulty of dungeons to the point that full Zerker parties won’t work.
2) Add challenges that target specific skillsets
3) Make the dungeon rewards undesirable to farmers1) that’s biased, hateful and unfair. Why should that be the case? Why shouldn’t Cleric’s be unable to complete dungeons?
Just because zerker is most effective at clearing a dungeon doesn’t mean it will not immediately be replaced by a new meta the moment it is no longer the best possible alternative.
Zerker isn’t a gear set friend, it’s a state of mind.2)Could work, but most player won’t bother.
3)Then who’ll do your dungeons?Do you remember how much people did dungeons before the 1+ gold reward system was implemented?
People did CoF P1 – TO FARM. And pretty much none of the other dungeons because they weren’t worth it.
1) Glass Cannoning is supposed to be high risk, high reward. The fact that most parties run full zerk, to the point that you’re seen as a burden for not following suit, suggests that the risk factor isn’t there. Increasing the difficulty will do wonders, it’ll increase the importance of support, in increasing the difficulty they could rework control’s effectiveness, and if they make it harder to melee burn mobs down, ranged will become valuable again. To make things more clear, Zerker parties would still be possible, it’d just require much more skill to run one without wiping. Ideally most parties will consist of 1-3 dps and 2 other specs to support them.
2) Rather not this one, it’d just some abitrary challenge that’d artifcally make taking someone with a different spec important.
3) Dungeons are the way they are now because they’re became farmable. Farming them is what has caused the player base’s tactics to develop so rapidly that an optimum strategy was found. Farming is what drives this need for efficiency, and has driven the need to create universally optimum tactic. With farming gone, only people who actually want to do the content for fun will remain, the farmers will move onto the next farmable thing. That said this is probably the laziest, and least helpful solution.
Registered Altaholic
Part-time Kittenposter
Part-time Kittenposter
I could sum it up in just a few words.
The game has been out for over 1.5 years now. People changed and improved. Dungeons did not.
um yea dungeons kittenin changed.
Are the encounters still the same? For the most part, yes. Are today’s tactics different from those used a year ago? Yes.
My point stands.
no, a year ago people used exploits to get cof and other dungeons day in and day out.
they also made many dungeons much more difficult.
so no your point doesnt stand.
MARATHON CIV 5 DIFFICULTY 10 STILL GOING
I could sum it up in just a few words.
The game has been out for over 1.5 years now. People changed and improved. Dungeons did not.
um yea dungeons kittenin changed.
Are the encounters still the same? For the most part, yes. Are today’s tactics different from those used a year ago? Yes.
My point stands.
no, a year ago people used exploits to get cof and other dungeons day in and day out.
they also made many dungeons much more difficult.
so no your point doesnt stand.
Can you back up your claim of exploiting with evidence?
Also, “many dungeons much more difficult”? Please, continue pulling my leg, if people in this day are complaining about dungeons being too difficult after all the knowledge that’s been shared around through guides and hand-holding, they must really suck. No dungeon path has undergone any major overhaul since the dungeon team vanished into thin air (Aetherpath is a replacement, not an overhaul).
So until you can give me solid proof to refute my point, it will stand.
A remnant of times past.
“Memories are nice, but that’s all they are.”
“Memories are nice, but that’s all they are.”
(edited by Lindbur.2537)
Dungeons havent become simple,people have been playing them for over a year and know them inside out.Why should they bother with any other build than berserk ? They know what to expect,they know what to do,they know how the kill the bosses and complete the paths without being wiped.Why pick any other stat if you Know how to complete the dungeons without wiping ? If you can shave off 10m of your run,why hold back.
It wasn’t until maybe 6-8 months ago that people realized DPS is all that matters and the meta evolved.
Except it’s not what they realized. If it was true, why would anyone ever take a guardian? There are better offensive professions.
Hardcore dungeon runners typically run full Beserker Guardians as well, with the odd support skill and Aegis to give a little wiggle-room for errors to occur.
And Berserker Guardians deal some impressive damage and Binding Blade is great for bunching up mobs and cleaving them down.
I could sum it up in just a few words.
The game has been out for over 1.5 years now. People changed and improved. Dungeons did not.
um yea dungeons kittenin changed.
Are the encounters still the same? For the most part, yes. Are today’s tactics different from those used a year ago? Yes.
My point stands.
no, a year ago people used exploits to get cof and other dungeons day in and day out.
they also made many dungeons much more difficult.
so no your point doesnt stand.
Can you back up your claim of exploiting with evidence?
Also, “many dungeons much more difficult”? Please, continue pulling my leg, if people in this day are complaining about dungeons being too difficult after all the knowledge that’s been shared around through guides and hand-holding, they must really suck. No dungeon path has undergone any major overhaul since the dungeon team vanished into thin air (Aetherpath is a replacement, not an overhaul).
So until you can give me solid proof to refute my point, it will stand.
Firstly, i never said they were too difficult, i said their difficulty were significantly raised. theres a difference.
And no, i dont feel like finding year old patch notes to simply appease you childish “prove me wrong or im right” stance. They HAVE changed, i know this, because ive been here since beta. If you dont also know this, then you either werent paying attention to the changes at the time, or you simply are a lot newer to the game than i.
MARATHON CIV 5 DIFFICULTY 10 STILL GOING
I could sum it up in just a few words.
The game has been out for over 1.5 years now. People changed and improved. Dungeons did not.
um yea dungeons kittenin changed.
Are the encounters still the same? For the most part, yes. Are today’s tactics different from those used a year ago? Yes.
My point stands.
no, a year ago people used exploits to get cof and other dungeons day in and day out.
they also made many dungeons much more difficult.
so no your point doesnt stand.
Can you back up your claim of exploiting with evidence?
if you dont remember all the exploiting being done, and the numerous patchs that had in the patch notes “fixed this exploit here, fixed that exploit there”
then you obviously havnt even been on for a year.
but yea, let me find some exploits for you.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Yet-another-CoF-exploit/first#post217686
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/CoF-Exploit-1
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/66470-cof-still-being-farmed/
there were many more, a lot of them just being ways to skip mobs to get to the end quicker.
etc etc. it is well known to players who actually were here a year ago that there were many exploits. most people who were speed farming cof and arah were using these exploits.official patch notes have even included, “fixed this exploit here, fixed this exploit there” etc etc
note: almost all, if not all, of them have been fixed, so this isnt sharing information that could hurt the game.
Valid evidence, but also pretty outdated. The last major overhaul to a dungeon was the change to AC back at the end of February. It’s been just a little over a year. Ever since that, not much has changed save for some band aid fixes and a stealth change to Alphard.
And I probably should have noted that I meant legitimate tactics from the start.
A remnant of times past.
“Memories are nice, but that’s all they are.”
“Memories are nice, but that’s all they are.”
It goes beyond stats, many weapons are marginalized hardcore for want of damage too. Shields… a lot of armor designs have an asymmetry built for the shields that very few people carry for want of more dps. Others are more class specific but you get the idea.
Dungeons may never get worked on, shields may never have their value increased, but the one they have done to screw with “all zerk all the time zerk or gtfo zerk zerk zerk” heads is in the living story… the tower of nightmares? and even LA right now, you are punished for zerk/zerging, and I like this.
Back to dungeons, yes all zerk is faster, and thus “safer” but with the current ways I personally don’t care what people run, you only need to know how to use your class well and have something that will put out a nice clip of dps to be “good enough” not to light me on fire and go raging.
Specific recommendations? When choosing armor, unless for wvw, or mass zerging: stay away from toughness. Toughness is known to draw aggro, especially in dungeons and is liable to bring both the boss’s main aggro and frequently also any occasional, smallerkittenmoves it’s going to do as well (Lupi, I’m lookin at you). Doing this, how do we survive? Vitality and/or healing. Dodge! “If you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a ball!” This is something that will not change, all classes have something or other that gives them either vigor or a similar effect, a weapon skill that includes an extra evade/block or even outright invulnerability “bubble” move (warrior endure pain for example). Will the kill be slow? Yes. Will at least 1 of the pugs rage because the fight took 5 minutes instead of 3? Yes. Would anyone who actually enjoys the content care? Doubtful… I like killing the mobs in dungeons, wish they were rewarding enough to promote greedy fools (and those zerkers we all hate) to slow down and kill some. But so long as I don’t have to wipe you up off the floor every time the boss farts, you actually are doing okay in my book, so long as you improve from there.