Guild Wars 2

They were already boring, unrewarding, simplistic and repetitive from day one. Community did/can’t do anything to crappy things called gw2 dungeons.

Stack in ac, skip skelk, stack kholer. The game has gotten really lame since the cof alt token cancellation. Basically forget about movement skill and spacing and stand still in a stack of amalgamated toons till boss is dead. No reason to use alt and enjoy the game as you would like to. Its all work, work, work to get a stupid overpriced precursor skin to get a legendary. WTH!

Nuka Cola, them being boring, repetitive is subjective, they’re arguably made simplistic because the community goes for that simplistic tactic everytime (read: they’re not simplistic if you don’t view everything as zerk gear + stack in corner), I might agree they feel unrewarding in their respective loot tables, though I do think the reason for that is that tokens are what reward you, having unique skins dropping from bosses unique to each dungeons could help alleviate this, while keeping the worth of tokens.

I think we can all agree the overall dungeon experience would be better if bosses AI didn’t break when stacking on them (IE seemingly forgetting certain abilities) and would be better if a few invisible walls prevented exploitive behavior? (AC queen spider, Kholer pillar, CoF acolyte room and the likes), Yes?

Bragdras.9572:

Nuka Cola, them being boring, repetitive is subjective, they’re arguably made simplistic because the community goes for that simplistic tactic

I think a fair argument can be made that most of the dungeons are just linear corridors filled with a lot of trash mobs. And that is what makes them boring and repetitive. There’s not a whole lot of height differences, puzzles, platforming, swimming, exploring or other interesting mechanics in them. They are just one-way tunnels with enemies in them. Creatively, they are pretty void of anything that generally makes a dungeon entertaining.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Hi Mad Queen

While you’re here: Why do you like Tribulation Mode in SAB, which is the epitome of trial and error, but insist on hating on trial and error in dungeons?

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

While you’re here: Why do you like Tribulation Mode in SAB, which is the epitome of trial and error, but insist on hating on trial and error in dungeons?

Because it’s in 8 bits.

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Hi Mad Queen

While you’re here: Why do you like Tribulation Mode in SAB, which is the epitome of trial and error, but insist on hating on trial and error in dungeons?

Because the boss tells in SAB are bright and flashy.

Haha I was thinking the same when I read his posts in the SAB section.

Because necros don’t suck in SAB

I feel really sad knowing that ANet doesnt have a dungeon team. The AC rework was excelent, they added the bit of challenge it lacked.
I paid for this game, and I want more dungeon reworks. Some lack balance, others have huge hp sponges

PS: Just remembered that theres no dungeon team. Guess there’ll be no rework. Well, I think ANet is just losing a lot here, what am I going to tell a friend if he/she wants to buy the game?

Bragdras.9572:

I am probably (yet hope not) in the minority when I say that, but am I the only one who is getting tired of how the community in general has degenerated into nothing more (Dungeon / PVE contentwise) than a “Look for exploits or holes in the design, abuse it, also dulfy.net for everything that requires tasking”?

It’s really such a lame and boring way to do dungeons, all in the name of “farming”, I enjoy farming, but come on, by using every holes in the design? The worst part is when people who exploit then turn around and say content is easy.

It’s because the community as a whole is extremely lazy and refuses to use actual thought when it comes to encounters, instead relying on whatever exploits they can to make the run go faster.

Yeah, there are some poorly done encounters out there, but rather than actually go through them to learn WHY they’re poorly designed, they just run exploits and do nothing to contribute on how to improve it. Then people wonder why there are so many idiots out there that don’t even know how to do basic MMO fundamentals.

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

While you’re here: Why do you like Tribulation Mode in SAB, which is the epitome of trial and error, but insist on hating on trial and error in dungeons?

Alright, I’ll bite.

I like Tribulation Mode, because it’s meant to be unfair. It has a humorous twist to it’s cruelty. It’s designed for the player to quickly respawn and try again, without armor repairs. It’s a game of “avoid the tricks of the sadistic developer”, and I feel some satisfaction in finding a way around the traps that Josh set up. And with plenty of checkpoints, the many deaths are not such a big problem.

In dungeons however, this is a very different case. Every death is punished with armor repairs, and slows the rest of the group down (also because checkpoints are often few and far between). Which is why trial and error game play kills dungeons. Challenges that can clearly be observed by the player are better, because failure then hinges on their own skill, rather than fore knowledge.

Trial and error is not good design. It’s a cheap way to make something difficult. The real challenge is in designing something that challenges the skill of a player, and not just his ability to look something up on youtube.

Or would you like to argue that dungeons should be like I Wanna Be The Guy?

I think we all can agree waypoints should probably be improved on in dungeons. But trial and error isnt bad design. Its only bad if you have the mentality of not wanting to learn from your mistakes, not wanting to improve and giving up. The repair costs and distant waypoints do make it somewhat frustrating for new players but those act as incentives to try harder and prepare more about the next attempt. Rather than running in repeatedly with cheap lives with no real thought on how to overcome the encounter.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Or would you like to argue that dungeons should be like I Wanna Be The Guy?

No, it was genuine curiosity. You explained, that is all.

I almost agree with you Spoj: I think dungeons should have less trial and error. Or more like a way to understand your errors. For instance a flavor text in the combat log that told you what happened when you did a mistake.

Example: against Lupicus
-if if the targeted player does not dodge his wurm incantation: “GL’s curse hit [player name] successfully, [player name] is now affected by the curse”
- as the wurm spawns: “a wurm came out of [player]‘s body as a result of GL’s curse. Kill the wurm before it reaches GL”
-as the wurm reaches GL: “a wurm has been absorbed by GL, his power and defense are increased”

Basically put in combat log all the stuff they usually try to put in very short under the mob’s name, but in much more elaborate.

Combat log could have stuff like “LOL kick the guardian he doesn’t know when to use Stand Your Ground.”

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Combat log could have stuff like “LOL kick the guardian he doesn’t know when to use Stand Your Ground.”

That would hurt people’s feelers Nike!

I just wonder what is the actual reason for these arguments about dungeon. There is always a simple method to solve this. If you want to play with a group that like to skip, post in lfg.com and include “quick run”. If you want to play with a group that like to challenge, find similar people to play with. If you don’t even do the above and simply find a PUG to join, don’t complain here and sounds like there is only one way to play the game. If you cannot find people like those challenge (which seems not possible based on how many people in this thread said they like it), you join or open a guild to gather this type of players together. Now problem solved. Is there any reason to blame the community when your playing style is not the majority or should you do something more before complain?

spoj.9672:

I think we all can agree waypoints should probably be improved on in dungeons. But trial and error isnt bad design. Its only bad if you have the mentality of not wanting to learn from your mistakes, not wanting to improve and giving up.

I don’t mind encounters that require practice, in order to master them. But that is a different matter entirely. A challenge can be perfectly clear, but you can still fail at it, because you lack the skill or practice to do it. That I think is the sign of a good challenge.

Take for example those flaming boulders in the lava fractal. An easy challenge, but it’s fair. You are first shown the flaming boulders, and then if you still get crushed by them, its entirely your fault. But suppose the flaming boulders just suddenly dropped from the ceiling on top of you… now that would make it trial and error. You can learn to stand elsewhere when it happens, but its hardly good design. I think good dungeon design, clearly shows the player what the challenge is, and then still manages to be hard.

Zelyhn.8069:

Example: against Lupicus
-if if the targeted player does not dodge his wurm incantation: “GL’s curse hit [player name] successfully, [player name] is now affected by the curse”
- as the wurm spawns: “a wurm came out of [player]‘s body as a result of GL’s curse. Kill the wurm before it reaches GL”
-as the wurm reaches GL: “a wurm has been absorbed by GL, his power and defense are increased”

I would prefer not to have to read a lot of text in order to understand an encounter. I think a well designed boss simply has clear visual effects that indicate what happens. Text in the bottom left is immersion breaking, and feels like reading a manual.

I think Anet could take some examples from Half-Life. In Half-Life, mechanics are always clearly explained in the form of actually showing what happens. For example, before you run into a headcrab, you are shown a headcrab leaping onto the face of some poor scientist. We are shown soldiers shooting innocent people, and we are shown an assassin or sentry killing an npc, or a scientist running into the laser of a sticky bomb. This is a clever way to teach the player new mechanics, without breaking immersion. This could easily be applied to Lupicus, by having him consume a grub at the start of the battle, and showing him becoming stronger in the process. It’s a little extra effort, that makes a boss fight much more understandable.

You are completely right.

My suggestion is a poor-dev’s solution (easy to implement), but your suggestion is the best way to go.

Approved.

Yeah if only they made Subject Alpha’s tells more obvious, I would know when to dodge.

I just wonder what is the actual reason for these arguments about dungeon. There is always a simple method to solve this. If you want to play with a group that like to skip, post in lfg.com and include “quick run”. If you want to play with a group that like to challenge, find similar people to play with. If you don’t even do the above and simply find a PUG to join, don’t complain here and sounds like there is only one way to play the game. If you cannot find people like those challenge (which seems not possible based on how many people in this thread said they like it), you join or open a guild to gather this type of players together. Now problem solved. Is there any reason to blame the community when your playing style is not the majority or should you do something more before complain?

Let’s get something straight here:
Exploiting isn’t a playstyle, it’s cheating.

Just because you do it with other people doesn’t make it a freedom of expression that should be protected or some kind of sacrosanct sub-culture we need to respect and preserve. That just means there happens to be alot of people cheating right now.

Exploitations like the ones we’re discussing in this thread get fixed, not accommodated.

I couldn’t agree more.

Also I’ll have you know that I am a cold-blooded elitist like anyone around here, but I think that facing encounters the way they were intended rather than using glitches/LoS/exploits is the way to go. This is especially true when you are an elitist and intent to prove your skills: if you are that good then don’t go the easy way, show the world who is the boss, don’t chicken away.

That’s because not only is it boring, but also it ruins the the expectations of the players. So In the end we all get less fun and you look like sissies.

Edit: and there are not that many useful exploits/glitches around, so just don’t do the few that are obvious!

Vox Hollow.2736:

I just wonder what is the actual reason for these arguments about dungeon. There is always a simple method to solve this. If you want to play with a group that like to skip, post in lfg.com and include “quick run”. If you want to play with a group that like to challenge, find similar people to play with. If you don’t even do the above and simply find a PUG to join, don’t complain here and sounds like there is only one way to play the game. If you cannot find people like those challenge (which seems not possible based on how many people in this thread said they like it), you join or open a guild to gather this type of players together. Now problem solved. Is there any reason to blame the community when your playing style is not the majority or should you do something more before complain?

Let’s get something straight here:
Exploiting isn’t a playstyle, it’s cheating.

Just because you do it with other people doesn’t make it a freedom of expression that should be protected or some kind of sacrosanct sub-culture we need to respect and preserve. That just means there happens to be alot of people cheating right now.

Exploitations like the ones we’re discussing in this thread get fixed, not accommodated.

I guess I am talking about those quick run which skip mobs or do things in a fast and smart way. In many case, those are not exploit. For example, stack is NOT an exploit because its part of the design of the game, skip mobs is NOT exploit and even dev said they design mobs that can skin. For me, I did dungeons in both way. For the first few months, no one knows how to do them and I did them with others without any knowledge. The challenge is great and fun. However, after so many months, things get old and nothing really can become a challenge when they have been completed for hundreds of times. I can understand the where you came from but there is no reason to consider that is the ONLY playstyle when others decided to do that in with quick method.

Btw, there is a group used legit way to kill Lupicus in 21 sec. Are you going to consider that exploit? I consider that as smart because that require lots of testing and experiment and coordination before it can be done. Most of the current “quick methods” are done by these types of people and learned by others. I don’t think there is any problem about it.

I personally have no problem with quick methods. Actually I would encourage people to use them. It is a more advanced way to play the game so it seems perfectly fine to me. At the same time I would encourage Anet to develop a smarter AI, but that’s an other topic.

What I am against are the few obvious exploits/glitches that truly denature encounters. For instance, stack-hacking the console in CoE, or LoSing Kholler in AC.

I am going to repeat again: I am completely in favor of fast gameplay. I appreciate clever techniques, advanced strategies and accurate practise, but I want to see beautiful play!

i agree if someone decides to los kohler or melee spider queen is choosing to take advantage of lack of balance thus should not complain if the game is easy.

But is not an exploit nor cheating.
Its just easy mode as can be logging a guardian or a warrior…..

Kohler is still able to attack you and evade your Attacks, spider queen is explicitly programmed to check your range.

Coe?
even more fair
You can choose to activate 1 alarm at a time with 4 defenders making it uber easy and extremely long.
Or instead risk to have just a single defender.

Perfect case of risk/reward.

Remember before talking of exploit to be sure to know what an exploit is….
Those cases are just the usual PvE lack of balance….

Coming up tonight at 11, Meleeing the spider boss is easy mode More information on ranged and pvt gear revealed at 8.

swiftpaw.6397:

LordByron.8369:

i agree if someone decides to los kohler or melee spider queen is choosing to take advantage of lack of balance thus should not complain if the game is easy.

Coming up tonight at 11, Meleeing the spider boss is exploiting. More information on ranged and pvt gear revealed at 8.

Aaaaand stay tuned: right after a short commercial break an exclusive revelation on how our guest Swiftpaw just admitted that LoSing Kholler is an exploit, don’t miss it!

Zelyhn.8069:

swiftpaw.6397:

LordByron.8369:

i agree if someone decides to los kohler or melee spider queen is choosing to take advantage of lack of balance thus should not complain if the game is easy.

Coming up tonight at 11, Meleeing the spider boss is exploiting. More information on ranged and pvt gear revealed at 8.

Aaaaand stay tuned: right after a short commercial break an exclusive revelation on how our guest Swiftpaw just admitted that LoSing Kholler is an exploit, don’t miss it!

Wat

Well you edited your post, that’s unfair practice but I caught ya on time you sneaky sneaky!

Now the whole world will know
There is no more hiding
You cannot take your words back
Your fate is sealed
At this point you’d better spit it all
Just tell them what you thought all along, tell you despise exploits, tell them you regret
Maybe they will forgive you
Join the crusade, join the light side, you can still do some good in this world
Be our beacon of hope, hopefully the people will forget the mistakes in your past…

it’s like 2:30 in the morning. I just only skim read what he said so I’m sure he’ll live.

Zelyhn.8069:

Just tell them what you thought all along, tell you despise exploits, tell them you regret

Wat.

Oh and edit- unfair practice is just your opinion

It’s a lively 10:30 here in Holland, the weather is awful as usual but it’s a good day to hear about your hatred for exploits!

Edit: silly me, I said “here” instead of “hear”

Zelyhn.8069:

It’s a lively 10:30 here in Holland, the weather is aweful as usual but it’s a good day to here about your hatred for exploits!

I think there’s a language barrier. o-o

It’s ok bro, I understand. I won’t tell anyone, it will be our little secret.

why should not be called easy mode a tactic that completely prevents AI to use the most Dangerous attack boss has?
Also helps you to ress faster downed players and makes sure that every combo field and buff is Always effective…..

Its legit, but its easier.
Anet should start rebalancing ranged combat….
WHoever did fractal did it way better than dungeon.

Risk/reward is way better there.
Ranged combat is usually easier (not Always) than melee but takes more time.
In dungeons ranged combat is usually harder but takes more time anyway so is pointless.

LordByron.8369:

why should not be called easy mode a tactic that completely prevents AI to use the most Dangerous attack boss has?
Also helps you to ress faster downed players and makes sure that every combo field and buff is Always effective…..

Its legit, but its easier.
Anet should start rebalancing ranged combat….
WHoever did fractal did it way better than dungeon.

Risk/reward is way better there.
Ranged combat is usually easier (not Always) than melee but takes more time.
In dungeons ranged combat is usually harder but takes more time anyway so is pointless.

I say that because there is still a risk that it can go very very wrong. Spider can still use that large kitten attack if not pulled correctly or someone moves, lupi will kitten you up if you don’t dodge kicks and grubs etc. Many pugs will actually have a harder time in melee than ranged on bosses, especially if their dps is not up to scratch or they don’t time blocks/reflects/dodges that kind of deal.

swiftpaw.6397:

LordByron.8369:

why should not be called easy mode a tactic that completely prevents AI to use the most Dangerous attack boss has?
Also helps you to ress faster downed players and makes sure that every combo field and buff is Always effective…..

Its legit, but its easier.
Anet should start rebalancing ranged combat….
WHoever did fractal did it way better than dungeon.

Risk/reward is way better there.
Ranged combat is usually easier (not Always) than melee but takes more time.
In dungeons ranged combat is usually harder but takes more time anyway so is pointless.

I say that because there is still a risk that it can go very very wrong. Spider can still use that large kitten attack if not pulled correctly or someone moves, lupi will kitten you up if you don’t dodge kicks and grubs etc. Many pugs will actually have a harder time in melee than ranged on bosses, especially if their dps is not up to scratch or they don’t time blocks/reflects/dodges that kind of deal.

I agree with this, those so call “quick” or “easy” method actually require high attention and cooperation. My group just wiped by spider a while ago because 1 member was a little away from the stacked group. This actually show the preparation is important and still require skill to perform. Imagine if the defender is not good enough to perform the 1-4 method in CoE, that group will never be able to perform that method.

I agree for the spider but 1-4 in CoE is obvious glitching.

that’s what the average reddit/champ farmer/gem store lover crowd doesn’t understand when they watch dungeon speedruns. It looks easy because those teams run on the knife’s edge for the whole thing. A successful skip of whatever trash section cuts down on time tremendously, when it’s successful. A good LoS pull/stack/knockdown/cleave on a group of Risen is an order of magnitude faster than dancing around kiting for minutes, but when it fails it fails hard. As a wise thinker once said:

Heavy risk…but the priiiiiize.

Zelyhn.8069:

I agree for the spider but 1-4 in CoE is obvious glitching.

No, doing the old 3-in-1 path was obvious glitching. Multiple people can activate the panel at the same time, and multiple layers get bypassed if they do it successfully. It’s pretty obvious it’s an intended mechanic for teams who are able to defend properly.

Well until we get a developer to express himself on that we cannot know whether it is intended or not.
But we have a two-factor glitch check!
While it fails to convincingly pass the “unintended” glitch detection test, this technique falls into the “Role play” critical domain.
So it is officially a glitch.

Broadicea.8294:

that’s what the average reddit/champ farmer/gem store lover crowd doesn’t understand when they watch dungeon speedruns. It looks easy because those teams run on the knife’s edge for the whole thing. A successful skip of whatever trash section cuts down on time tremendously, when it’s successful. A good LoS pull/stack/knockdown/cleave on a group of Risen is an order of magnitude faster than dancing around kiting for minutes, but when it fails it fails hard. As a wise thinker once said:

Heavy risk…but the priiiiiize.

That’s probably what he thought when he cheated on Shepard in ME3.

Zelyhn.8069:

Well until we get a developer to express himself on that we cannot know whether it is intended or not.

The safest default position is always assume whatever way it is currently is the way it is intended to be.

I could maybe agree having one person activate both panels to turn off the lasers is a glitch. But the golems surely is intended. It gives teams a variety of ways to tackle it. Slow and safe or organized and quick. Dealing with the amount the group can handle.

I would like to agree, but we have to assume that maybe it is not what the developers intended and that they just cannot or do not want to fix it for the time being, because they have their own priority list. Hence the second factor.

No, we don’t have to assume it isn’t what the developers intended at all.

I get confused with double negatives, could you rephrase that?

Zelyhn.8069:

I would like to agree, but we have to assume that maybe it is not what the developers intended and that they just cannot or do not want to fix it for the time being, because they have their own priority list. Hence the second factor.

we absolutely do not have to assume that

Hm ok, but why?

Zelyhn.8069:

Hm ok, but why?

you’re the one making the positive, unsubstantiated claim that we have to do something, burden of proof is on you buster