Guild Wars 2

Wethospu.6437:

What he is saying that it doesn’t make sense that 4 persons can hack a single console. If developers 100% meant to include that tactic why didn’t they put 5 separate consoles?
One console implies that they probably didn’t think about it during the development.

Exactly! Sorry I am terrible at explaining …

@Zelyhn
Once again:

COe 1 is not exploiting
COe1 is not even an original tactic.

Devs 99,9% expected players to decide how many players would defend and how many would activate console.

Its a puzzle and if you don t uderstand it, do not accuse people of cheating…its also against code of conduct.

Its not harder if you kill 1 wave at a time.
Its EASIER and LONGER exactly as a balanced risk/reward should be.

@whethospu:
Because with 5 separate consoles it would split the party making impossible anything other than 1-1-1-1-1 or 1-2-2
With one you have more possibilities.

Also again if you miss 1-4 you pay for it as intended.

ANet … not thinking?

mind = gone

I am not saying anyone is cheating .. woa, take it easy!

What I am saying is that it would be much better for everyone to face the encounters the way they were meant to be faced.

There is a fast and hard way to do this event legitimately, I explained it in my wall of text. It’s only longer than the possible glitch by a couple of seconds.

The exploit is boring as hell. So I think that if people are skilled they should not resort to using the possible glitch.

Come on Wethospu, we know what he’s saying

What we’re saying is you can’t just assert something and have it be true. It absolutely does not necessarily imply that muli-hacking is unintended. The possibility is there that it’s unintended, of course. But we don’t have to take it at 100% certainty that it’s unintended. And asserting that doesn’t make it true, no matter how many times you do it in one thread.

The only people who know with absolute certainty whether or not it’s intended are the developers who coded it. And even then, unintended mechanics aren’t always and shouldn’t always be considered exploits.

Zelyhn.8069:

I am not saying anyone is cheating .. woa, take it easy!

What I am saying is that it would be much better for everyone to face the encounters the way they were meant to be faced.

If they start b alancing Pve for once it can happen.

If they don t we are FORCED to adapt the fee pvp takes on pve balance.

If you play some fotm you can understand what the issue is.

In fotm (aka dungeons 2.0) they used the opposite approach they used with dungeon.
Melee triggers deadly Attacks.
That is why people play both ranged than melee in fotm
They dps ranged and burst melee to get back to ranged.

Its not perfect but way better than any dungeon.
That s why so many people play fotm.

I do fotm indeed and I agree with you.

Broadicea.8294:

Come on Wethospu, we know what he’s saying

What we’re saying is you can’t just assert something and have it be true. It absolutely does not necessarily imply that muli-hacking is unintended. The possibility is there that it’s unintended, of course. But we don’t have to take it at 100% certainty that it’s unintended. And asserting that doesn’t make it true, no matter how many times you do it in one thread.

The only people who know with absolute certainty whether or not it’s intended are the developers who coded it. And even then, unintended mechanics aren’t always and shouldn’t always be considered exploits.

That was just a long way to say “Nothing is certain”. You can also apply that to skipping/glitching every encounter and then selling the slots.
However, it doesn’t stop us from having an opinion and discussing about it. You are free to explain why do you think it is intended. Also a side note, this isn’t scientific discussion so we aren’t here to prove anything.

many people opened threads with “skipping kohler/TA is exploiting ban cheaters etc etc etc”.

Until a devs just said “why do you think we put stairs there? if we didn t intend kohler to be skippable”.

Also said clearly skipping is legit…(unless as happens in arah, you don t go out of the map).

I’m obviously not against the 1-4 method, mostly because killing wave after wave of golems LoSed behind a wall is not my idea of fun, but Zelyhn is probably right when he says that it wasn’t intended. Do you really think that it makes sense for 4 people to be able to use the same keyboard and be 4 times as efficient as one ? That’s like saying that 9 women can combine together to get a baby out in 1 month. If you really think that this was intended and not just one of the thousand developer oversights (anet devs aren’t very imaginative in how the game mechanics can be used and abused) I have a bridge to sell you.

Nikaido.3457:

That’s like saying that 9 women can combine together to get a baby out in 1 month

I’m very good with women and you are actually wrong about that.

Nikaido.3457:

I’m obviously not against the 1-4 method, mostly because killing wave after wave of golems LoSed behind a wall is not my idea of fun
[…]
I have a bridge to sell you.

The fun and legitimate way to do that encounter is to have one guy hack while the 4 others each take one of the four sides (wait they are four sides in the room and one console? gotta check that) and defend the hacker. At first you can kill a few veterans, but as the levels get hacked it becomes more about maintaining aggro, surviving, and protecting. No need to LoS and kill everything at each level.

And if you have a bridge to sell I have a dungeon to sell too, can we barter?

Nikaido.3457:

Do you really think that it makes sense for 4 people to be able to use the same keyboard and be 4 times as efficient as one ?

lore explanations are quite pointless.
let reverse the question:

according to you is unintended that 1 only defender is harder and takes less time?
Is unintended that if you have to face more than 2 waves at once its quite hard?
And that you can risk more and take less time as a reward?

Are you assuming that one of the few balanced dungeon mechanics in pve is not intended but the result of a glitch?

You have a really bad opinion of dungeon team.

We have a glitch that answer what almost every player would like to see in a game:
unexperienced party = easy long way
Experienced party risky and short tactic.

But was unintended ____
No i can t believe it.

If so please moar bugs…..they make people happy.

LordByron.8369:

Nikaido.3457:

Do you really think that it makes sense for 4 people to be able to use the same keyboard and be 4 times as efficient as one ?

lore explanations are quite pointless.
let reverse the question:

according to you is unintended that 1 only defender is harder and takes less time?
Is unintended that if you have to face more than 2 waves at once its quite hard?
And that you can risk more and take less time as a reward?

Are you assuming that one of the few balanced dungeon mechanics in pve is not intended but the result of a glitch?

You have a really bad opinion of dungeon team.

We have a glitch that answer what almost every player would like to see in a game:
unexperienced party = easy long way
Experienced party risky and short tactic.

But was unintended ____
No i can t believe it.

If so please moar bugs…..they make people happy.

Well, sometimes unintended things can have positive gameplay consequences and even be officially adopted by the developers later. Things like what people do in terms of physics tricks in Quake initially started from abusing the game engine weaknesses, and on later installments, were intentionally kept.

And yes, I really have a bad opinion of the “dungeon team”. When they ""fixed"" the boat glitch in arah for example without really fixing it, or when they put a wall in fractals to prevent you from killing the tentacles from a place the adds can’t reach.. wall that you can in fact still jump over without any sort of trouble or use of special skills or consumable whatsoever. Do you think these were all actions done with thorough testing and understanding of the dungeon environment? do they even have real players test the content?

Considering their “6% of testers beat Liadri”, I’d say their testers are probably in the bottom quintile of PvE skill.

Do the devs even try to theorycraft builds that they can use well?

Broadicea.8294:

the method is unintended because I say it’s unintended because I say it’s unintended because I say it’s unintended because I say it’s unintended because I say it’s unintended because I say it’s unintended because I say it’s unintended because I say it’s unintended because I say it’s unintended because

Entire thread summarized perfectly.

Advent Leader.1083:

Do the devs even try to theorycraft builds that they can use well?

8 months ago when I thought 3w/1g/1m was the end all be all of pve I assumed the classes were way out of balance and the devs didnt understand their own game.

Now that I know that every class but the Necromancer is good, I have a bit higher opinion of the devs who are in charge of pve balance.

My guess is that behind the curtain there are some very smart people who have good tools for determining DPS not just of individual characters but also in team functions. My other guess is that there are a lot of QA and test team people who are completely clueless.

Another thought I had is in regards to the LH ele build. I’m sure that they were unaware of the FGS functionality, but I wonder if the devs were aware of the LH build itself (the basic theory of stacking % damage modifiers wherever possible) before it was “discovered” by the community. Without this build, ele’s would be in about as bad a place in the meta as Necros as their dps would be crap and team utility easily replicated elsewhere. So I wonder if the LH build was a case of the devs getting lucky and the class being bailed out by an unintended good build or was this particular build designed to be discovered by the community from the start?

The LH build is obviously an afterthought. Just think about it for a second. You build a whole class around a mechanic, attunement switching, and fully disregard it by making it stay in the same attunement while not using its actual attunement skill and giving 20% more damage on a conjured weapon that has nothing to do with water? In fact I wouldn’t be surprised if they fixed that (made it so that only the skills you use from your attunement benefit from the % bonus that has restriction such as “+20% if you’re attuned to water” “+10% if you are attuned to fire/air” etc. and it makes sense. Why do you think water got the highest attunement restricted buff ? because water skills base damage is bad. It’s also specified “to vulnerable enemies” because water attunement outputs plenty of vuln, through dagger auto or the scepter skill. Would they have made a 20% buff on water with the intent of it being used with LH ? I don’t see it.)

Also a nice reminder is that quite a few traits and skills recently changed. Elementalists didn’t give fury before (through fire fields I mean, I know about the terrible furyshare.). Plenty of buffs that made ranger more desirable in a group than it used to be, would you have taken a ranger before the buff to spotter and the spirit’s survivability ? etc.

While the difference between the previous meta group and more varied set ups wasn’t as big as previously thought, it also got better because there were plenty of patches to fix that.

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Now that I know that every class but the Necromancer is good, I have a bit higher opinion of the devs who are in charge of pve balance.

My guess is that behind the curtain there are some very smart people who have good tools for determining DPS not just of individual characters but also in team functions. My other guess is that there are a lot of QA and test team people who are completely clueless.

I remain unconvinced of that. I mean, watch the streaming when they preview events and “dungeons” and stuff. Do you see any of them running the builds you guys come up with?

LH is definitely unintended IMO, and I wouldn’t be surprised to see it get the nerf bat.

The only hope for improved pve balance is that a pvp change benefits dungeon builds.

I wish they would hire me to be in charge of dungeons and PvE balance. I would be great at it :/

Broadicea.8294:

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Now that I know that every class but the Necromancer is good, I have a bit higher opinion of the devs who are in charge of pve balance.

My guess is that behind the curtain there are some very smart people who have good tools for determining DPS not just of individual characters but also in team functions. My other guess is that there are a lot of QA and test team people who are completely clueless.

I remain unconvinced of that. I mean, watch the streaming when they preview events and “dungeons” and stuff. Do you see any of them running the builds you guys come up with?

LH is definitely unintended IMO, and I wouldn’t be surprised to see it get the nerf bat.

I always thought those anet streams/builds were targeted at casuals, obviously. FWIW, I was watching a random stream of CoE on twitch the other day where the players were all using horrible builds, horrible strats and failing miserably. It took them 4 passes to kill the Destroyer if that is an indication. While watching it I realized, “this is the experience of the vast majority of players of this game and their level of skill and builds.” And once I had that realization it made sense why anet put out the Celestial gear condition damage warrior guide: for the vast majority of the 5000 people watching the stream, that build would actually be an improvement to what they are currently doing.

I agree with you an Nikaido that the LH ele was almost certainly unintended. However, it wouldnt be the first time that the optimal build (mesmer/warrior) was based around not using the profession mechanic. A big failure of their class design was that they made traits that run specifically counter to the class mechanic.

I also agree with Nikaido that the classes weren’t always so equal. Rangers were buffed towards being good, and so were eles. But by the same token, Thief was always as good then as it is now. Engineer was even better months ago; would anyone deny now that if they unnerfed Grenade damage that Engineers would be undisputed tier 1? So it was a mix both of buffs/nerfs but a greater understanding of the game on the players’ parts did contribute too.

Zelyhn.8069:

For Kohler, LoSing him is an obvious exploit. I don’t think there’s any debate on that. However, meleeing him is a technique that does not breach any of the two factors of the glitch check. It may be odd because of the poor design of the AI, but it is not an exploit.

For the mounds, yes there are several techniques, but all of them rely on exactly the same concepts.

The point is not to compare the efficiency of techniques, the point is to compare their concepts.

The two methods of bypassing CoE use exactly the same concepts. Therefore it passes your glitch tests. The only difference is that one is using more people.

swiftpaw.6397:

Broadicea.8294:

the method is unintended because I say it’s unintended because I say it’s unintended because I say it’s unintended because I say it’s unintended because I say it’s unintended because I say it’s unintended because I say it’s unintended because I say it’s unintended because I say it’s unintended because

Entire thread summarized perfectly.

I just… I just can’t stop responding…

;~;

I’m pretty sure I’ve made a wall of text explaining how the two concepts are different, so I guess any proper counterargument would have to at least be a bit more than a statement in order to disprove anything.

Also I would like to point out that I pull back everything I said about Kohler, I was misinformed, LoSing him is not an exploit. Just in case someone sees that quote and wonders.

No, it wouldn’t, because your wall of text really just amounted to nothing. There’s nothing more to say. You’ve dug into your position, reason is foreign to you, your explanations make no sense, your logic is circular, and you’re adamant that, no matter what, we have to assume there’s a possibility that it was unintended despite only the flimsiest of evidence around to support it.

I disagree vehemently.

Good say, sir.

…

…

I SAID GOOD DAY!

The greatest nerfbats engineers have received would be the 30% full stop direct damage reduction on grenade 1 and the reworking of kit refinement. Kit refine rework made it so that engineers lost the AOE point heal (super elixir x2 that at that point scaled with heal power) that they could bring or the sudden nuke (jump shot->barrage on swap->barrage) that they could do when using GB that also maxed out vuln stacks. And to even clarify more: every KR before had no GCD. So the old kitgineer nade build would be full DPS, with each KR having it’s own internal cooldown that ranged from 10-20 secs (I distinctively remember super elixir and fire blast with 10 secs CD and GB with 12-15 secs CD), as well as mekittenit having that constant no-CD swap thump.

My god, you are right, I was wrong!

Your arguments have convinced me

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

I agree with you an Nikaido that the LH ele was almost certainly unintended. However, it wouldnt be the first time that the optimal build (mesmer/warrior) was based around not using the profession mechanic. A big failure of their class design was that they made traits that run specifically counter to the class mechanic..

Ranger suffers the worst from this, IMO. Way too many traits involve stuff happening when downed, when you pet is dying, when you’re dying, etc.

Broadicea.8294:

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

I agree with you an Nikaido that the LH ele was almost certainly unintended. However, it wouldnt be the first time that the optimal build (mesmer/warrior) was based around not using the profession mechanic. A big failure of their class design was that they made traits that run specifically counter to the class mechanic..

Ranger suffers the worst from this, IMO. Way too many traits involve stuff happening when downed, when you pet is dying, when you’re dying, etc.

I have a feeling rangers were designed for rescue when they thought of this.

Wouldn’t the warrior class be infinitely more fun to play if Berserker’s and Heightened’s bonuses applied when adrenaline was empty? Just make it “Gain 15% damage increase when adrenaline is not full.” And make it so it checks the amount after the skill, not before like now, so your Eviscerate gets the bonus. Might actually make cool down reduction on burst skills more meaningful.

Change mesmers so that shatter only pops clones and not phantasms. Might suck for a dedicated Shatter build which actually wants to pop it’s phantasms, but those suck. It would mean some of the best traits like clone on dodge are viable in the best builds.

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

However, it wouldnt be the first time that the optimal build was based around not using the profession mechanic.

A lot of GW1 builds come to mind when reading this sentence. And not only PvE, also a lot of PvP.

E/Mo, Shadow Walk Doomsday Bomber, ranger tanks in any PvE setting…

DAE sabway, upboats to the right pl0x

Broadicea.8294:

DAE sabway, upboats to the right pl0x

Sabway was actually pretty bad, just saying..

14 heroes or gtfo.

Bright.9160:

Broadicea.8294:

DAE sabway, upboats to the right pl0x

Sabway was actually pretty bad, just saying..

14 heroes or gtfo.

that’s fine, I was super casual and only played alone or with my partner, so all I had to go off of was how things were rated on the pvx wiki site

inb4 “what’s changed lol”

what’s changed lo— dang it!

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

devs who are in charge of pve balance.

In related news, a yeti was seen riding the loch ness monster into battle with godzilla.