Dungeons need two difficulty modes.
all i can say is. “bravo”
I agree 100%
people saying that they are end game, well CM Explore says level 45. SO why should you need to be end game for a level 45 Dungeon?
all i can say is. “bravo”
I agree 100%
people saying that they are end game, well CM Explore says level 45. SO why should you need to be end game for a level 45 Dungeon?
Well, for one because the equipment you can get for doing the dungeon is lvl 80 stuff, so there’s an incentive right there to do it with lvl80.
That being said, you don’t necessarily have to be lvl80 and in good equipment to do a dungeon. However, if you go into a certain dungeon where you where you hardly meat the level requirement and have equipment going with your level some dungeons can be extremely difficult, especially for random groups.
Then again most dungeons can just be stomped when you are lvl80…
Why not just make the paths vary in difficulty, ranging from easy to super hard? Easy is more forgiving, less reward, and a tool to help familiarize players to the dungeon in terms of what mobs and bosses might do and how to deal with those. Super hard would be almost unforgiving, highly rewarding, and tests players on how skillful they play their toon and work together with other players to execute strategy…. with the other two paths varying from these extremes.
This exists already, story mode is normal mode and explorable is hard mode.
all i can say is. “bravo”
I agree 100%
people saying that they are end game, well CM Explore says level 45. SO why should you need to be end game for a level 45 Dungeon?
If you would follow Devs communication, you would know that their idea is to have End Game in the entire game. Not just after you get to max level.
CM EM says level 45 and you can do it as level 45. I certainly did. It was hard as hell (HENCE END GAME) but it was doable. I didnt have to wait to lvl 80 to start doing something I havent done until then.
And for the OP, there are already 2 dungeon modes. Story mode and Explorable mode.
Thread locked.
Normal Mode = Story Mode
Hard Mode = Explorable Mode
Bam, wish granted. If you want to beat both with relative ease, then here’s a few tips:
1 – Wear gear with defensive stats, such as Knights Armor. Put Soldier Crests/Medallions or something similar in to give you more defense so you can withstand the hits. While you may not deal as much damage with Knights armor equipped as you do with Berserker, you won’t die nearly as much and therefore the run will actually go faster overall. Masterwork quality works just fine and costs ~20s for a full set. If you can’t afford ~20s worth of gear then you really shouldn’t be going into dungeons in the first place.
2 – Mark targets to be focused down, starting with ranged. Ctrl + T marks a target and a marked target can easily be targeted again by pressing T. By doing this you ensure everyone is going to be on the same target instead of trying to take down individual mobs, which ends up taking more time than necessary as well as leading to unnecessary deaths.
3 – Revive players in downed state, do not revive people completely dead. If someone goes down and you can pick them back up, do so. Don’t revive people that are still in danger as you will end up getting yourself killed which means 2 dead members instead of 1. Too many people are focused on the mobs and skip this part which, again, leads to countless deaths.
4 – Do NOT rez and bumrush a boss if you’ve died on him. If people are continuously dying on a boss and rezzing to do nothing but run in and die, you’re not only going to have a hefty repair bill, but you’re going to end up taking a hell of a lot longer on that boss. Now, if it’s almost dead and only 1 person has died and he can safely make it back in time, that’s fine. If people are just dropping over and over again then stop, regroup, and start from the beginning. Just because you can run in over and over and over again doesn’t mean you should be doing that. It’s just not smart.
Those are the 4 most basic tips to making dungeon runs work. Just because they are only limited to 5 players doesn’t mean they should be easy. They are more like small version of raids where you need to use teamwork. If you’re unwilling to cooperate and communicate then don’t expect to have an easy time. And communicating doesn’t mean using vent, use the in game chat. As everyone grows and adapts you will find runs become easier and easier without ANet having to do anything, other than a few balance problems every now and then.
Not necessarily…. Story mode maybe normal in terms of challenge, but it’s a linear fixed path with no tokens and a hat reward at the end. What OP is talking about is explorable mode but with a different set of difficulty… what I’m talking about is just modifying certain paths to do the same thing without having essentially a “game +1” mode.
Some paths are easier than others. If you cant do one path because whatever reason…you are not good enough or whatever, do only the paths you can do. Its that easy. Every dungeon has what 4 paths? There are some easier and some harder. Harder ones can be only cleared by excellent players, easier paths by everyone else.
You guys are so messed up with every other MMO having two difficulties of each thing…this game already has it, its just not called hard mod and normal mode.
Not necessarily…. Story mode maybe normal in terms of challenge, but it’s a linear fixed path with no tokens and a hat reward at the end. What OP is talking about is explorable mode but with a different set of difficulty… what I’m talking about is just modifying certain paths to do the same thing without having essentially a “game +1” mode.
They don’t need to do this. If you can’t clear something, that has already been cleared by countless others, then you need to get better. ANet does NOT need to give an easier mode so people that are bad, notice I didn’t say casuals, aren’t able to get everything.
So how do you propose players get better? The people who you claim need to L2P or get better don’t just divine that skill from the heavens. People learn differently and at different paces. Some folks are gasp not familiar with GW1 or MMOs (MMO-like games) in general.
Not everyone is an old school “spreadsheet gamer” where the majority of time is spent on the spreadsheet and forums. Not everyone is a savant that just picks up on everything right away. Hell, some folks don’t do any work upfront and would rather learn as they go, which means they need gradual introductions to the mechanics necessary to execute a successful explorable dungeon section…. where is that learned in GW2 other than in the dungeon?
Leveling? What does that teach you for dungeons?
DEs? Yeah you learn a lot when there’s 20+ people spamming AoE kitten storm all over the place.
Story Mode? Hardly teaches you anything remotely useful for explorable mode.
It’s especially important that if you try to get people to break out of old MMO mantras like “holy trinity”, that you properly teach them what the kitten you’re game is all about. Saying you have these mechanics and figure it out is one way and it works fine for some, yet is completely ineffective for others.
If you don’t think the explorable dungeon is the right place to gradually teach people how to actually run it, fine… but there’s nothing in the game currently that teaches people.
(edited by Bruno Sardine.2907)
I understand restrictions for rewards, but not for content. I also want harder dungeons. That said I’m all for two difficulties.
Easier mode would allow most of people experience dungeons and prepare for harder mode.
Harder mode should be based on easier mode but include more durable, more skillful and more hard-hitting enemies and prevent graveyard zerging.
It’s especially important that if you try to get people to break out of old MMO mantras like “holy trinity”, that you properly teach them what the kitten you’re game is all about. Saying you have these mechanics and figure it out is one way and it works fine for some, yet is completely ineffective for others.
Nicely put, Bruno. Especially when they seem to WANT to be pushing Holy Trinity in some of these. My guildies did an AC “Rumblus” path run last night. It didn’t go too badly at first, though we were glad we had a tank…cough err… I mean a guardian with uber-defensive spec to take care of that idiotic trap hallway (What’s the point of the red circles if you’re going to be hit outside of them, anyway?). The Louie was pretty easy once we got him to kite around the outer ring, and the “bonus” encounter with the one-shotting troll was irritating, but unremarkable.
But the lovers’ tomb? W.T.F. We couldn’t nail down a strategy that didn’t fail horribly. We came CLOSEST (58%) with my suggestion that we huddle up around one of the collectors and fight off the zerg while a roamer tries to take care of the burrows. Unfortunately, I was elected as that roamer, and I couldn’t get any DPS off on them, since I’m a ranger and my fast weapons – aka every ranged weapon I had – bugged out with kitten “obstructed.” So I end up swinging my greatsword at them like akitten doingkitten all damage while 200 gravelings zerg my party and eat our faces.
Color me especially impressed that, thanks to the rewards nerf, we came away completely empty handed.
In all honesty, I don’t think you need to be 80 for any dungeons but CoE, Arah and path 2 of AC (Not necessary but most level 80s outdps lower levels and dps is important here)
So how do you propose players get better? The people who you claim need to L2P or get better don’t just divine that skill from the heavens. People learn differently and at different paces. Some folks are gasp not familiar with GW1 or MMOs (MMO-like games) in general.
Not everyone is an old school “spreadsheet gamer” where the majority of time is spent on the spreadsheet and forums. Not everyone is a savant that just picks up on everything right away. Hell, some folks don’t do any work upfront and would rather learn as they go, which means they need gradual introductions to the mechanics necessary to execute a successful explorable dungeon section…. where is that learned in GW2 other than in the dungeon?
Leveling? What does that teach you for dungeons?
DEs? Yeah you learn a lot when there’s 20+ people spamming AoE kitten storm all over the place.
Story Mode? Hardly teaches you anything remotely useful for explorable mode.It’s especially important that if you try to get people to break out of old MMO mantras like “holy trinity”, that you properly teach them what the kitten you’re game is all about. Saying you have these mechanics and figure it out is one way and it works fine for some, yet is completely ineffective for others.
If you don’t think the explorable dungeon is the right place to gradually teach people how to actually run it, fine… but there’s nothing in the game currently that teaches people.
There’s everything you need to learn how to play this game. Trial and error. Remember oldskool games where not everything was handed to you? People that played those games have a clear advantage here, because they automaticly learn to figure out how stuff works, which gives a broader understanding of the game they play. If the game had to explain to me how to play Diablo 2, I’d never get past act 1.
Learn from your mistakes. Instead of raging that something went wrong, look what went wrong, and how you could fix it. For example, a mob that oneshots you? CC it, kite it, find out how the ability works and counter it. CM route 3’s first boss has a sawed off shotgun. Thing is, he charges in a single direction, making it incredibly easy to just sidestep it. Yet, 90% of the people I play with have to get used to this idea and get their kittens handed to them. And if you can’t reliably stop a mob every time, use dedicated CC such as blinds, stuns, weakness, chilling (lengthens the cooldown, but honestly this makes it harder to anticipate more than anything)
Work with what you have, you’ll ALWAYS be able to get there in the end.
Bruno, story mode dungeons are here to introduce dungeon type content to new players. You learn how to play in PvE as you progress. There are boss fights with larger scale out there where you learn that bosses have mechanics and different stages. When you get to first dungeon story mode it shows you smaller scale boss fights and mechanics.
If you complete that you are good to go for explorable mode dungeons. You already know how things work, that bosses have different mechanics and that you need to avoid that, dps those ads etc etc. Then you just progress through explorable mode dungeon and improve, get better try to clear more and more and more when eventually you will improve to the point when you can clear it all.
OR…you are just not as good player as someone else and will be able to clear only parts of the explorable mode dungeon because other parts are just too hard for you. Thats perfectly fine.
This game has very nice ways to introduce new players new content all the way up starting on lvl 30 (which is level when you should already know basic gameplay with that profession and thus should be able to do dungeon, which is much harder than standard PvE gameplay)
I understand restrictions for rewards, but not for content. I also want harder dungeons. That said I’m all for two difficulties.
Easier mode would allow most of people experience dungeons and prepare for harder mode.
Harder mode should be based on easier mode but include more durable, more skillful and more hard-hitting enemies and prevent graveyard zerging.
Exactly my point. Though hand-in-hand, rewards should scale as well. 60 tokens for the easy path is too much, maybe 20-30 tokens? At the same time, the super hard path might be 80-100 tokens? I’ll defer to the devs on that one… having the right mechanisms in place for people to learn is more important to me; it makes for a better player-base.
As for the story mode being the introduction… then maybe it’s not doing a good enough job? Also, don’t confuse “easy path” for rainbow meadows and a jolly stroll in the park… I meant easy as in relative to the rest of the dungeon. Sure, it’s more forgiving and little less stressful on players… relative to the other parts. Just because there are those kind of easier paths currently in a dungeon is sort of a blend of serendipity and design than pure intention. Also, easier doesn’t mean you yield the same rewards. As I’ve said, easier means less rewards because there’s less risk… there’s still the incentive to “go for glory” but if players like this particular difficulty path, then so be it.
(edited by Bruno Sardine.2907)
I understand restrictions for rewards, but not for content. I also want harder dungeons. That said I’m all for two difficulties.
Easier mode would allow most of people experience dungeons and prepare for harder mode.
Harder mode should be based on easier mode but include more durable, more skillful and more hard-hitting enemies and prevent graveyard zerging.Exactly my point. Though hand-in-hand, rewards should scale as well. 60 tokens for the easy path is too much, maybe 20-30 tokens? At the same time, the super hard path might be 80-100 tokens? I’ll defer to the devs on that one… having the right mechanisms in place for people to learn is more important to me; it makes for a better player-base.
That was already happening.
For example Arah has easier paths and harder paths.
Easier paths are for the worse players and harder paths are for the better players.
Easier paths rewarded less shards than the harder paths.
This is exactly what you are asking for. Why are we still on this?
It’s especially important that if you try to get people to break out of old MMO mantras like “holy trinity”, that you properly teach them what the kitten you’re game is all about. Saying you have these mechanics and figure it out is one way and it works fine for some, yet is completely ineffective for others.
Nicely put, Bruno. Especially when they seem to WANT to be pushing Holy Trinity in some of these. My guildies did an AC “Rumblus” path run last night. It didn’t go too badly at first, though we were glad we had a tank…cough err… I mean a guardian with uber-defensive spec to take care of that idiotic trap hallway (What’s the point of the red circles if you’re going to be hit outside of them, anyway?). The Louie was pretty easy once we got him to kite around the outer ring, and the “bonus” encounter with the one-shotting troll was irritating, but unremarkable.
But the lovers’ tomb? W.T.F. We couldn’t nail down a strategy that didn’t fail horribly. We came CLOSEST (58%) with my suggestion that we huddle up around one of the collectors and fight off the zerg while a roamer tries to take care of the burrows. Unfortunately, I was elected as that roamer, and I couldn’t get any DPS off on them, since I’m a ranger and my fast weapons – aka every ranged weapon I had – bugged out with kitten “obstructed.” So I end up swinging my greatsword at them like akitten doingkitten all damage while 200 gravelings zerg my party and eat our faces.
Color me especially impressed that, thanks to the rewards nerf, we came away completely empty handed.
I’m going to take this apart one by one.
Rumblus. I am a warrior split between tanking and dps. I have very little healing effects. This boss’s abilities are INCREDIBLY easy to dodge, just as every boss in this dungeon. I can solo him without taking any damage at all.
With the traps, you can run past them one by one if you wish, there’s WAY enough room. If you want a hard trap room, try CM route 3. I’m a bit of a rusher and just take two or three traps before I disable them.
For the troll, he does no damage at all if you just don’t stand there to take his stick in your face. Roll back once you see the circle, he’ll never hit you. Probably the easiest boss in any dungeon, purely because he does not have the opportunity to do damage, ever.
The sergeant is probably my favourite. All you have to do is dodge his pull, and anyone can pretty much solo him.
I do agree that the burrower one can be challenging. What I do now is take an elementalist with Meteor Shower with me, rips up the holes in seconds. We basicly split up between the holes, stopping the gravelings in their tracks. There’s three holes. I’m the tank, so I take care of one. The ele roflstomps one every 30 seconds, and the others support where needed or pick up the third hole. Goes pretty easy that way. The first time I had some difficulty, but we had a good necro and a second warrior that could take some of the heat. So four people defended one side as I roamed to destroy the burrows (also with a greatsword) We got that down once we couldn’t get the holes down fast enough anymore (around 50%) and we got through on the 4th try in total. However, after the patch it seems this route has been made alot easier, I don’t even have to direct people to holes because they seem to pop up slower.
I’m going to take this apart one by one.
[snipped]
You’re not taking much “apart” when you echo pretty much exactly what I said. Except I never said anything about Rumblus himself since, if you re-read what I said, we never actually saw him.
I do agree that the burrower one can be challenging. What I do now is take an elementalist with Meteor Shower with me, rips up the holes in seconds. We basicly split up between the holes, stopping the gravelings in their tracks. There’s three holes. I’m the tank, so I take care of one. The ele roflstomps one every 30 seconds, and the others support where needed or pick up the third hole. Goes pretty easy that way. The first time I had some difficulty, but we had a good necro and a second warrior that could take some of the heat. So four people defended one side as I roamed to destroy the burrows (also with a greatsword) We got that down once we couldn’t get the holes down fast enough anymore (around 50%) and we got through on the 4th try in total. However, after the patch it seems this route has been made alot easier, I don’t even have to direct people to holes because they seem to pop up slower.
And here you make my point with me again. You’ve got a tank and nukers to take out the burrows! Hey! That’s 2/3 of the HT right there again. And I’m glad you did better DPS with a greatsword. You’re not a ranger. It’s not a high DPS weapon for us, but it’s the only one I had in my bag that could hit the stupid things without line-of-sight glitching.
So what you’re basically telling me is that a variation on my tactic would have worked, if we would have ignored Anet’s constant hyping to the contrary and stuck to HT.
No, you can do it anyway if you are willing to communicate, mark targets, basically adapt. They did it one way, we did it another, you yet another way. You’re just not willing to better yourself whereas we are.
[/quote]
That was already happening.
For example Arah has easier paths and harder paths.
Easier paths are for the worse players and harder paths are for the better players.
Easier paths rewarded less shards than the harder paths.
This is exactly what you are asking for. Why are we still on this?[/quote]
Are the paths specifically designed to be that or did those paths just happen to be that way by happy coincidence? Something tells me it’s not intentionally by design because other parts of the game that give you a challenge option usually has the following words in (); easy, medium, hard. You use Arah as the example, but is this true for all dungeons? In terms of shard amounts… What I’m talking about is with the current system, if there’s truly an “easy path, harder path” system, then why is the path clear reward uniform? Shouldn’t the “easy path” be fewer tokens for clearing than the “hard path” because the likeliness of clearing the “easy path” is greater? Otherwise, we find ourselves in the same condundrum we had prior to this dungeon “fix” where there’s little incentive to do harder paths other than “oh well I have diminishing returns now on this path”.
What indicates to me that path 3 (dungeon doesn’t matter) is the easiest path? Nothing. Unless I have prior knowledge before making that choice, I have no idea if I picked the “cakewalk” or the “gauntlet”.
Not being consistent in your difficulty design isn’t the same as intentionally designing easier and harder routes.
No, you can do it anyway if you are willing to communicate, mark targets, basically adapt. They did it one way, we did it another, you yet another way. You’re just not willing to better yourself whereas we are.
At least his counterexample included tactics, even if they did make my point about the Holy Trinity. Your post, on the other hand, offers nothing but assumption, pomposity, and a general indication that you’re a rather unpleasant person to be around. Thanks for nothing, mate.
I understand restrictions for rewards, but not for content. I also want harder dungeons. That said I’m all for two difficulties.
Easier mode would allow most of people experience dungeons and prepare for harder mode.
Harder mode should be based on easier mode but include more durable, more skillful and more hard-hitting enemies and prevent graveyard zerging.
I understand what you mean, but technically there is no restrictions really for content. The same content you see in story mode, you see in Explore mode mostly. If players want to see what the dungeon’s look like, Story mode is fine.
I understand what you mean, but technically there is no restrictions really for content. The same content you see in story mode, you see in Explore mode mostly. If players want to see what the dungeon’s look like, Story mode is fine.
Considering set pieces (“what dungeons look like”) to be the end all and be all of “content” is, I think, an excessively narrow definition.
I’m going to take this apart one by one.
[snipped]You’re not taking much “apart” when you echo pretty much exactly what I said. Except I never said anything about Rumblus himself since, if you re-read what I said, we never actually saw him.
I do agree that the burrower one can be challenging. What I do now is take an elementalist with Meteor Shower with me, rips up the holes in seconds. We basicly split up between the holes, stopping the gravelings in their tracks. There’s three holes. I’m the tank, so I take care of one. The ele roflstomps one every 30 seconds, and the others support where needed or pick up the third hole. Goes pretty easy that way. The first time I had some difficulty, but we had a good necro and a second warrior that could take some of the heat. So four people defended one side as I roamed to destroy the burrows (also with a greatsword) We got that down once we couldn’t get the holes down fast enough anymore (around 50%) and we got through on the 4th try in total. However, after the patch it seems this route has been made alot easier, I don’t even have to direct people to holes because they seem to pop up slower.
And here you make my point with me again. You’ve got a tank and nukers to take out the burrows! Hey! That’s 2/3 of the HT right there again. And I’m glad you did better DPS with a greatsword. You’re not a ranger. It’s not a high DPS weapon for us, but it’s the only one I had in my bag that could hit the stupid things without line-of-sight glitching.
So what you’re basically telling me is that a variation on my tactic would have worked, if we would have ignored Anet’s constant hyping to the contrary and stuck to HT.
My greatsword probably does the same amount of damage as you, since I only use auto attacks to target the holes. (Can’t really target them with abilities) And you don’t need a tank in this dungeon at all. Just someone who kites, and someone who can handle aggro. A thief with smoke field could’ve done exactly the same thing, if not faster and easier than me. HT is in fact gone, there is no trinity. Just effective ways to combine abilities as well as buffs any class has at its disposal that are useful for the well being of the entire team. Warriors in this respect are actually the most limited of all. It’s not that tanks are gone, but the definition of the roles are diluted. Anything can tank. I’m a warrior with 80% of my gear and traits focussed on damage(dps), yet the toughness plus my little healing power and high base health makes it quite easy for me to kite anything and take a few hits in the process.
You have to consider what the holy trinity actually did. You can still possibly form parties based on this, but any party with any combination of classes can still be just as good. Their tactics are just different. A tank party or high support/cc party just makes it easier, not less possible for other combinations.
I don’t see why changing it around to have an (easy, medium, hard, super hard) path is bad… those of you who say it’s already easy get better challenges (assuming the hard and super hard paths are designed properly) while those of you who are having issues can at least do an easy path and eventually progress to the harder challenges. Those of you who think other people should L2P, will L2P by being given challenges that gradually teach them how to play… and maybe the harder challenges will teach you a little something about L2P as you get more masterful with your toon and group tactics.
I don’t see the resistance here…. everyone wins; which, isn’t that the point of this entire design philosophy from the get-go?
I for one think that Justin’s suggestion is excellent.
There probably should be a small video or something that teaches dodge mechanics and strafing to dodge regular enemy attacks, but I think anyone who is having a hard time could figure that stuff out after a while.
Also dungeons were not ever meant to be completed by everyone, the story modes can be completed with persistence, and the explorables are there for people who want somewhat challenging PvE ( which many would say it still isn’t )
The suggestion doesn’t solve any problems. The fact is, no matter what, people want to see every bit of content. You’re trying to turn these dungeons into a carbon copy of raids with varying difficulty. All it does is create a bigger treadmill.
“Those dolls they were making underground… Did you think they look like me?”
-Vivi
-Vivi