Guild Wars 2

Why oh why is there a condition cap? Makes absolutely no sense what so ever.
All it does is limiting the number of condition focussed players than can be in a group to 1 or at most 2… There is nothing that limits direct dmg builds the same way.

It should be removed asap, it serves no good purpose.

Seemed the most appropriate place to put this topic since it is in dungeons it is noticed most.

I think this comes down to group planning. Dungeons are designed to reward group play, and the dev’s have acknowledged that they expect coordinated teams to be more efficient than PUGs, but that PUGs should be able to succeed.

If your group plans around conditions people will be using with the goal of keeping a boss at bleed cap, or 100% up time on burning, etc, but scales back on overlap you can get a powerful combination of direct damage and conditions….

For the un-coordinated group (not saying skilled, just not coordinated at a build level) direct damage is simpler than worrying about coordinatng conditions.

I agree that group planning ameliorates some of the issue here, but the problem that it can happen at all is indeed an issue. I believe the condition stacks are in place for technical reasons, and that ANet should indeed put effort into removing those limitations. It’s important that all builds be encouraged, but right now, condition builds are far and away worse in PvE than Power-based builds.

So, my stance is that this is definitely a problem they need to resolve, but that there is a work-around for now.

Rising Dusk.2408:

I believe the condition stacks are in place for technical reasons, and that ANet should indeed put effort into removing those limitations.

The condition cap is a design choice centered on PvP.

I agree, we should each have our own conditions on enemies if that makes sense. Maybe only make this happen in dungeons/fracs and have a cap in openworld. It would be way OP in openworld bosses as there would be so many stacks in those fights the enemies would just melt in seconds. But in a dungeon there is only 5 of you so it would still be fine I think. I know it sux if there is more than 2 cond builds in a dung.

Pinch.4273:

The condition cap is a design choice centered on PvP.

Really? That’s interesting. I’d be curious to see the source for that. It’s not that I don’t believe you, but I’m curious why that is. I play WvW a lot, and, honestly, if you’re taking enough heat that you get 25 stacks of bleeding from a dozen sources, you’re either going to clear it and attempt an escape or go down anyway. I don’t think removing the cap would negatively affect that game format. SPvP, hrm.. Maybe. Either way it’d be interesting to read more about.

I’ve tried condition build in PvE and I’ve group with many players who were condition builds. Its not very good in PvE due to the mechanics of most bosses and even trash mobs. So its good in PvP but not in PvE. Its just the way the game is setup and maybe perhaps down the road they might add PvE content that would favor condition builds. But for now you should just focus on a direct damage or support build if you really want to contribute to a group.

Kumakichi.2583:

I’ve tried condition build in PvE and I’ve group with many players who were condition builds. Its not very good in PvE due to the mechanics of most bosses and even trash mobs. So its good in PvP but not in PvE. Its just the way the game is setup and maybe perhaps down the road they might add PvE content that would favor condition builds. But for now you should just focus on a direct damage or support build if you really want to contribute to a group.

On top of that, several dungeons require you to destroy objects, which conditions pretty much can’t touch. At the very least, I don’t think conditions should be a primary damage source until some changes are made to how condition damage works.

The cap is really not a problem in PvP (WvW and SPvP), but its true that this should be remove from PvE. Or at least everybody should have their own limitation. But Vulnerability should stay cap at 25 for the whole group, since you can’t obviously decrease the armor of your enemies by 125%.

I understand that dungeon are more oriented for team play, but I run dungeon with several of my character and my guild mate do the same. We can coordinate our build since we use different characters and we don’t play always with the same 5 people. Sometime someone is not online but another member is there to fill the place.

Nothing wrong with condition dmg in dungeons. It’s just that some classes are not as good as others in dishing out condition dmg regardless of build or gear that’s all.

I think the condition limit should be lifted too (for PVE at least) or raised… there shouldn’t be engine limitations to that (it’s not 2005 anymore…). Condition builds should not be weaker than direct damage builds either… each should haver their advantage- For example, direct damage better to burst some trash mobs, condition damage still ticks on boss when you have to kill adds, etc.

Yeah no idea why there is a condition cap… If i wanted to go in a dungeon with 5 cond spec necros would be pretty impossible (well not impossible but tedious as about only 1-2 necros worth of damage will be going on). Though if you go in say with 5 Warriors all direct damage spec there is nothing stopping them doing damage.

Not to mention conditions don’t affect constructs.

I will like to make condition builds too but as it is, direct damage builds seemed to be better for dungeons.

If you say there shouldn’t be a condition cap, then likewise there should not be a boon cap. Thought 25 stacks of might warrior dungeon clears were lopsided? Well get ready for 50 STACK MIGHT COF RUNS.

No, I vote leave condition and boon the way they are. Obviously it is done to balance the game.

Nah, don’t change the stacks of boons. You’re definitely wrong and off topic by comparing the way boons and conditions stack. Only the stack of conditions must change : get 25 bleed/player and 1 burn/player.
Currently, while bleeding is OK as long as you only have 1 person stacking it, burn is utterly useless when you have 1 person who can stack it infinitely.
And for the balance : we’re only talking about having this in dungeons, not in sPvP, tPvP, WvW (where it would be huge problem) or open PVE.

JJBigs.8456:

If you say there shouldn’t be a condition cap, then likewise there should not be a boon cap. Thought 25 stacks of might warrior dungeon clears were lopsided? Well get ready for 50 STACK MIGHT COF RUNS.

No, I vote leave condition and boon the way they are. Obviously it is done to balance the game.

The diference being that not many classes can hit 25 might stacks by themselves and is generally a team effort to achieve this. Ele being the only exception i’m aware of assuming D/F, S/F, and maybe S/D. While on the other side of the spectrum Warriors, Necros, Thieves and Ele’s can all hit the bleed stack cap by themselves with relative ease. Ranger prolly can too but i haven’t played one in pve so idk. So with the current system if you bring any of the above 4 classes who are running conditions, bringing another one nets you nothing at all from a damage perspective. Not to mention if i can stack 25 strong conditions by myself, but we have a GS warrior who bleeds on crits, hes eating up my DPS just because hes eating my precious room for bleeds and theres nothing he can do about it as its a passive minor trait. Riffle users are no different.

Condition builds are just badly designed from a PvE standpoint, period. They’re next to worthless in Large scale events like dragons (You’ll be lucky to hit silver on dragons as a condition char while 2 HB nets you gold on most dragons) You have less overall DPS both short and long term then a comparable zerker build(and not just HB either pretty much any zerker set up) You can’t harm objects which are a key part of certain dungeons. You can’t take advantage of 10% dmg sigils for farming nor can u use the 5-10% dmg bonus of the Potent potions of X slaying. Conditions aren’t worth using in dungeons at all, and barely useful in open world.

if one character can stack and maintain 20 stacks of bleed, and the game is balanced around 5 man teams, then logical thing would be to cap bleed at 100 (5×20) for wvw purposes.

ty

condition builds are almost useless in the game today, they only really work when playing solo, it’s one of the reasons the game is loosing my interest fast, i love playing necro and sword/axe warrior, but when i’m playing with another character based on bleed we always hit the cap, and warriors are the worst, i have to actually refuse to play with other warriors that have 5 or more points in crit to have any damage output. It just sucks.

There’s one simple solution here, each player in the group can stack up to 15/20/25(whatever’s balanced) of a condition on a mob individually. No limit removal, just make the kitten limit personal plz…

Taken from a discussion over at the necromancer forums… Some might be out of context.

Drachshyish.2319:

Yeh… But conditions arent instant… Sure I can apply a bleed that hits for a total of 16k over 1m via Blood is Power… How much dmg does a power build dish out over 1 minute? Answer is probably around several hundred thousand.

The cap only gimps condition builds while making power builds alot better. Conditions never crits for one… My warrior who is by means a zerker can do 15k easily two or three times over with Hundred Blades at the same time our second most powerful bleed runs it course(Enfeebling Blood), especially on an almost stationary target like a boss.
Sure Condition builds stacks bleeds and other hurty conditions so that over a long period of time we can maybe equal a power build in PvE, but with the cap and the way stacking works we will never equal them in effectiveness if there are more condition builds in the group. Which in turn actually limits the effectiveness of condition builds in PUG groups for dungeons, whereas power builds are never limited…

Sure… If we get a group of condition builds and we have a cap of 100, which we will never actually reach since most bleeds die out in a few seconds and if we do hypothetically 10000 dmg every sec with our 100 bleeds… How much dmg would a full group of power builds do every second, probably way more given that most power builds can hit for 3-5k every second which would equal 15-25k as a group.

The cap is utter and complete bullkitten, it serves no purpose whatsoever.

that’s why AC path 1 and 3 is not condition friendly since the burrows don’t care…
bad design imo, also if there is another bleeder in my party, 1 can go afk, because of the 25 stack limit…
i solo manage to do 25 bleed stacks…

Instead of stacking to 100, might it be better to see a rewarding extra stack after 25?

For example, if your group gets 25stack bleed, if you continue to pile on stacks of it a new stack opens. Maybe in this example you can call it ‘Haemorrhage’. Then after 25 stacks of that it can move onto to ‘Open Vein’ or something.

A system that rewards teams that help each other to pursue a damage course.

Just a thought.

25 stacks should stay as the limit BUT PER PERSON. Makes zero sense having 25 stacks for whole freaking team…

Unless Warrior’s get a condition build I don’t think they’d care enough to change how it works.

I think there should be a direct damage cap maybe only having certain amount of damage possible a second. Would balance the DD vs Condition damage (as that has a cap why shouldn’t direct damage?)… Maybe it would persuade some groups that don’t have any condition damage builds to use one?

Or change it how everyone has been saying since BEFORE RELEASE…. change condition stacks to the person and not per mob.

Condition stacks per person though, while it would work, it would be easier achieved by removing the cap altogether since 99% of condition builds cant maintain 25 stacks by themselves.

I’m not even bothered by that. My problem with condition build is you don’t do any damage to structure.

The problem with removing the limit is the system works identically for both players and enemies. Can you imagine if foes could stack conditions on you over 25?

And while I have seen a single player peak stacks at 25, I have never seen a single player maintain the stacks at 25. Two condition stackers, and the stack at 25 can be easily maintained without both players needing to do nothing but the condition skills.

It is unfortunate that conditions do nothing to structures, but it does not make logistical sense for them to (how does the earth bleed?). At least creatures that should not bleed (elementalists, etc…) still do as to not make conditions completely useless. And it is a good thing that there are few structures (outside of WvW) that you need to destroy. The only ones that come to mind are graveling burrows and the gates/siege in the Ascalonian Fractal.

It almost seems that having Zerker gear is a requirement on anything other than guard/necro.

Michael.7943:

It almost seems that having Zerker gear is a requirement on anything other than guard/necro.

Nah. Not a requirement. Zerker is nice, but I think rampager is equally useful if you are running conditions. And both require a higher skill level than defensively statted equipment as your survivability becomes entirely dependent on your ability to dodge and avoid damage.

Nemhy.5230:

Unless Warrior’s get a condition build I don’t think they’d care enough to change how it works.

Warrior bleeds are actually pretty ridic.

Each person should be able to stack their own individual bleeds, poison, burning, confusion. Just like each person stacks their own boons.

I understand there is a targeting difference but honestly this would not make condition builds OP at all, it just allows you to do your own damage instead of throwing all condi builds into a mixing pot that overflows very easily.

If each person could stack their own conditions and you simply saw YOUR conditions on enemies as additional stacks rather than seeing 20 different bleeds it would work and not clutter.

This would also make clearing them harder… but condi builds are already weak so should we just buff the condi removal of weaker classes and call it even?

At least do this in PvE

Michael.7943:

It almost seems that having Zerker gear is a requirement on anything other than guard/necro.

I don’t know why you exempt necro. I was actually in rabid gear but switch to knight.

There is a few situation condition just don’t work well. Structure or last boss of dredge fractal? ya so I just switched to power build. If not for those I’ll stick with condition build.

SynfulChaot.3169:

And while I have seen a single player peak stacks at 25, I have never seen a single player maintain the stacks at 25. Two condition stackers, and the stack at 25 can be easily maintained without both players needing to do nothing but the condition skills.

An Engi nader can very easily maintain a 25 stack of Vulnerability on a foe by themselves. Who does this ultimately benefit? The warrior who’s smashing the bejeesus outta the creature. :P

Scoundrel.2139:

SynfulChaot.3169:

And while I have seen a single player peak stacks at 25, I have never seen a single player maintain the stacks at 25. Two condition stackers, and the stack at 25 can be easily maintained without both players needing to do nothing but the condition skills.

An Engi nader can very easily maintain a 25 stack of Vulnerability on a foe by themselves. Who does this ultimately benefit? The warrior who’s smashing the bejeesus outta the creature. :P

I am referring to the damaging conditions here, but I see what you mean. I’d actually be afraid of vuln could be stacked more than 25 stacks, honestly.

What if they cut all bleed base duration by 50% and improved the tic speed to compensate =ing the same amount of damage just faster but the difficulty of keeping stacks maxed is multiple times more difficult?

Leo G.4501:

What if they cut all bleed base duration by 50% and improved the tic speed to compensate =ing the same amount of damage just faster but the difficulty of keeping stacks maxed is multiple times more difficult?

^ This.

I have absolutely no idea what he just said. But… This. ;-)

let’s say, for the sake of comparison, we have 3 condition thieves:
2 of them can already keep the 25 stack limit (caltrops/max condition duration etc)
so the other one(s) that do bleeds can go afk, because their damage is neglected anyway
see what i mean ???
ah yes, did i mention that if you have 6 and 3/4 seconds, you only do damage for 6 seconds (say hello to rounding DOWN dmg)

either halve the time for the bleed, and double it’s dmg, OR lift the 25 stack limit somehow, really really really bad design on thisone.