Guild Wars 2

Chris RJ.1843:

I like the dungeon paths are they are now. I assume you are a very casual player (in that you don’t really emphasize skill balance and efficiency). Please understand that adding random jumping and pointless encounters would be an affront to the speed clear community. \

I doubt that adding more diversity in the lay out and terrain of the dungeon would be an affront to the speed clear community, if there is such a thing to begin with.

As players do the same dungeon over and over again, they will try to do it faster and faster. Eventually they’ll figure out the fastest way to do it all.

Making the dungeon more diverse in it’s lay out and terrain should really have no effect on speed clearing. It doesn’t really matter to a speed clearer if he’s running through a tunnel, or swimming or jumping. In fact a lot of speed clearers use unintended jumping to skip parts of dungeons, so I don’t see how adding some intentional jumps would suddenly raise their anger.

Let me illustrate with an example, and you can say what you dislike about it:

This is Ascalon Catacombs: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/e/ef/Ascalonian_Catacombs_map.png

As you can see, right near the start there are two corridors. During explorable mode, one of those corridors is blocked off, you can’t use it. What if you opened it up, and made it an optional alternate route? Or what if the bottom left part of the dungeon, was connected with the upper left part with an extra corridor? Would that really ruin the dungeon? Or would it make it more interesting?

They could improve ac by making each area a seperate event that you can complete in any order. Open all the blocked doors and tunnels and make the end reward trigger once you have cleared a certain amount of events. For ac p1 you can already kind of do this with heavy exploiting but I dont see why they didnt do it in their original design.

This kind of open event stuff would be the perfect way to introduce elite dungeons. Make instanced zones with optional bosses all over the place. You can choose what you want to clear and in what order. Rewards are obtained from each boss/event you clear so theres no rushing to some big end boss, you deal with the bosses you want the rewards from. And maybe have a bonus reward for clearing all events/bosses in the map.

I believe this was how UW and FoW worked? I dont know I never played them. :P

I agree entirely Spoj. It is as if the dungeons were already designed with this in mind, but they split it into different paths at the very last second. The dungeons could be so much more fun if you could freely roam through them, and pick your objectives as you encountered them (kind of the like the old Underworld). And maybe if players defeated all three bosses, it would unlock a fourth final boss for that dungeon with even more rewards.

The closest thing we had to multipaths was CoE 3 in 1.
Too bad it was an exploit.

Unfortunately the only dungeons that have big enough and open enough maps for this kind of design are ac, arah and maybe se/cof. They already did the event choice with ac story. I dont have any expectation for them to improve current dungeons. And tbh Id rather they leave them as they are considering what they did to replace TAFU. What I do want is completely new dungeons in this form. Preferably as elite dungeons like UW. But they may have to pick another theme entirely seeing as gw2 isnt human gods focused anymore.

It seems their idea of elite dungeons is fractals. But it doesnt cut it for me. What they had in gw1 was great. Why do something different when it can work so well in gw2?

Spoj The Second.7680:

It seems their idea of elite dungeons is fractals. But it doesnt cut it for me. What they had in gw1 was great. Why do something different when it can work so well in gw2?

It could work even better in GW2 than it ever did in GW1. I don’t understand why they seem to abandon their own PVE design philosophy for the dungeons. Suddenly they go back to the restricted party size again, have no dynamic events, and no nodes to mine. They’ve also stripped away the idea of random doors, keys and chests that they introduced in Eye of the North. And also, hardly any jumping puzzles and underwater sections. You have all these interesting PVE game mechanics that when thrown together, make for excellent dungeon content… and it’s all left unused. I do not understand their dungeon design. It makes no sense.

wow seriously, spider queen example again?

corner is mostly for speedruns, pugs get the wrong idea of surefire win.

corner is mostly for mini-spiders not really the queen. (we pull everything including the queen in 1 go, not like some scrub that pulls in waves – pugs with the wrong idea).

all melee queen (no stack) = aoe isnt even a problem.

stacking = harder to dodge the weakness debuff due to the animation harder to see, if you don’t dodge when stacking you’re a bad player.

not stacking, aoe problem? you can WALK out of the way – occasionally dodging it. (have you people even picked up an action game? not those “a 5 year old can finish it” games like god of war or some crap)

real dungeon veterans can clear these dungeons half awake/drunk/high/maybe all at the same time with or without stacking. we stack because it’s faster; success is a given.

Agree with few posts above, gw2 dungeons are…..tiny in terms of scale and not quite as good as gw1.

just to add, AC in gw2 is really really tiny with a pathetic number of chambers compared to gw1.

gw2 dungeons have no character. guild puzzles are better maps for dungeons than the dungeons themselves.

I agree that for a lv35 dungeon it’s remarkably catered to lv80’s, though P3 is actually pretty easy and can be done with only 1-2 high levels in the group as long as someone knows the spawn locations.

I will say though, l think there should be lower level dungeons, maybe at 15 and 25. By the time you’re lv35 you’ve been playing for a long time, and then you only have access to 1 dungeon. I’ve seen lots of new guildmates join at ~lv5-8 and get frustrated when they can’t do anything with the guild for several weeks until they hit lv30-35… and then they’re intimidated because everything one-shots them in their slightly underlevel blue/green gear.

Lower level ‘intro’ dungeons would help ease that transition, and to help discourage it from becoming speedrun-only, you could just keep the reward level low – e.g. 25 silvers + 20 tokens redeemable for rares only.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

nagr.1593:

Suggestion of ‘multi-paths’..lol. Just seems another way of wasting time.

Are you serious? Have you never played a real dungeon outside of GW2? There is a vast wealth of games out there with elaborate dungeons that have tons of branching paths, and they are a ton of fun. Demons Souls, Zelda, Skyrim, Fall Out, DnD Online, GW1.

Of that list I have played Skyrim and Fallout 3, they are immensely fun and probably rank among the best console experiences I’ve ever had (but then whose isn’t it?). Though trying to compare them to an MMORPG is like comparing apples to oranges, as they were single-player only.. so of course the world would be more vast and open, and the dungeons more interactive and dpendent on ur choices. You could spend a lot of time trudging around and exploring the dungs because u werent worried about wasting anyone elses time, like u are in the GW2 dungeon system. If there were multi-paths like the one in AC you suggested.. with the current speed-run group mentality if ur group decides to go one way and you feel like taking the other route, you can expect an insta-kick. Besides this would only make it more confusing.. pugs would generally take a few mins deciding which way to go, if they got split up they’d most certainly wipe, and if 1 path was easier they’d take it and rarely use the other one. like they currently do now. As people have said there r a few dungs now that feel like an open-world.. Arah for instance, and look how much of a nightmare that is for most groups. if anything the personal story has the multi-path choices you mean, but then again its single-player so this can be expected. In conclusion, multi-paths would be a bad idea. would only lead to more tears and rage-quitting. I’ll use my example again of pugs wasting my time by clearing the dogs at start of TA. and btw this is the only route available for exp..so yes multi-path = waste of time.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

nagr.1593:

People still complaining about armor repairs..? Lol. I had a noob in a pug for CoF p1 ask our group for some coin cauise he couldnt spare enough to repair his gear (said he was broke). I told him that if he could wait like 5min he could get the silver he needed to repair from completion reward, but he wouldnt have none of it. Anyway..I feel the repair cost/mechanics is fine as it is.. but may be biased as I can afford most anything. Teaches u not to fail so much imo. I still fail tons, especially when trying to run around open-world PvE myself..but u dont see me complaining.

Completely missing the point. This isn’t about the cost of the armor repairs. It’s about the game punishing new players harshly, and then taking their lunch money too. It sucks the fun right out of the experience. The developers learned their lesson when they designed Fractals, by not making everything an insta-kill. That was a good design change.

I still feel GW2 is more lenient than other MMOs when it comes to repair/revival fees..from what I remember in WoW you had to waste a couple min by running back to your body before you could revive. Paying a couple silver isnt a bad tradeoff for an insta-revive.. besides with the how loot/reward system currently works, even if your poor as dirt you should still be able to afford to repair, though u might cry about it a little.

I agree as far as lowbie dungs go, AC isnt exactly a lv35 dungeon like its advertised to be. With a decent group of 80s who know what they’re doin, AC is usually a piece of cake. However for someone new and starting out in dungeons, AC exp isnt exactly the best experience. I agree there should be a dung specifically for lowbies, probably for those around lv15, maybe a swamp-esque cave setting in Caledon or something. It would make for a more interesting and less-stressful experience at the least.

Also I agree this thing about noticing cues and knowing when to stack/unstack is still an issue with most players. you wouldnt believe how many groups in CoE ive had where they stay stacked at the ice elementals even after seeing those ice wave things shoot out, and proceed to all get downed. or fighting the icebrood wolf champ, they all stay stacked on top of him and not move at all, and are all simultaneously downed when he pops his aoe. I feel the main reason for stacking is cause most pugs can’t be expected to do it otherwise.

nagr.1593:

Though trying to compare them to an MMORPG is like comparing apples to oranges, as they were single-player only.. so of course the world would be more vast and open, and the dungeons more interactive and dpendent on ur choices. You could spend a lot of time trudging around and exploring in the dungs because u werent worried about wasting anyone elses time, like u are in the GW2 dungeon system.

You could change the dungeon system. Wouldn’t it be more fun to explore dungeons together, rather than running through the exact same corridor a dozen times, and having every enemy be in exactly the same spot as before? This sense of exploration is missing, but I feel it is crucial to a dungeon experience.

Currently it doesn’t take long for a group of players to figure out the quickest path, and before long, everyone is taking that path, as you correctly point out. So why not change this? Why not add some unpredictability to the dungeons, and encourage the players to judge which path is the most convenient given unpredictable elements that could be added to the dungeons. Mobs could randomly be in different places, some tunnels could be randomly dead ends, and some doors could require a key every now and then. Also, place traps in random (or random from a limited number of fixed) spots.

nagr.1593:

If there were multi-paths like the one in AC you suggested.. with the current speed-run group mentality if ur group decides to go one way and you feel like taking the other route, you can expect an insta-kick.

That’s not a good argument. Players don’t just randomly run into a different corridor. The Thaumanova fractal has multiple chambers to explore, but players still stick together there (or they agree to split up for the sake of speeding things up).

nagr.1593:

Arah for instance, and look how much of a nightmare that is for most groups.

The multiple paths are not the reason that Arah is a nightmare for your average pug.

nagr.1593:

In conclusion, multi-paths would be a bad idea. would only lead to more tears and rage-quitting. I’ll use my example again of pugs wasting my time by clearing the dogs at start of TA. and btw this is the only route available for exp..so yes multi-path = waste of time.

It doesn’t have to be. Dungeons can contain randomized treasure chests, so that exploring other tunnels is actually rewarded (this is what they did in Eye of the North, and it worked).

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Wouldn’t it be more fun to explore dungeons together, rather than running through the exact same corridor a dozen times, and having every enemy be in exactly the same spot as before? This sense of exploration is missing, but I feel it is crucial to a dungeon experience.

That is what we were promised, remember?

Three totally different paths plus random events, surprise bosses, you never knew what you’d encounter. Yeah, right…

The only real uncertainty in all of GW2’s dungeons is where (out of 4 or 5 locations) the AC troll will be.

Even the spider queen, which was originally marked as a “bonus event” is now just a fixed chore, present in every path.

I guess fixing the dungeons isn’t as simple or profitable as adding items to the gem store to “uncripple” the artificially limited stack sizes…

I kinda like the spider queen. A good fight right off the bat before I waste time with a bunch of idiots. If they can listen to direction and/or figure out the mechanics quickly, i will stay in group and complete it, even if it takes longer due to others running clerics gear or bearbows (or, both on the same toon)

That being said I was in a group just yesterday doing story, they wanted a guide, but they wanted me to run a low level toon so it would be fun instead of a complete carry. So I hopped on my glass ele, level 40 something to help. Keep in mind I suck at ele since i have like 5 hours into it. I played it well enough to carry the party to the lovers anyways. But they were too “play how I want” to listen to directions and wiped. Instead of trying again the instance owner just quit complaining of “to hard”… Talk about a lazy wimp.

On the variations of dungeons. In GW1 they had these huge multi path dungeons that required organized groups to effectively clear. Emphasis on effectively. After a very short time of these areas the best builds and paths ways to run these became well known. A skillbar ping required on joining. Failed basic duty = kick. Suck too much and get kicked out of guild if it was a pve speed clear guild. The different paths were an illusion, it was all about running the same path order, pulling the same mobs, balling up the entire instance in one spike ball and clearing content in minutes that takes unorganized groups hours (or not at all). The dungeons in this game are easy by comparison.

AC Path 3 with an ele should not be hard.

FROSTBOWS = iWin Button.

Basically it shows your group does not understand their classes or the game mechanics well. It will take time and maybe some reading.

nagr.1593:

Of that list I have played Skyrim and Fallout 3, they are immensely fun and probably rank among the best console experiences I’ve ever had

Xystus.3241:

AC Path 3 with an ele should not be hard.

FROSTBOWS = iWin Button.

Basically it shows your group does not understand their classes or the game mechanics well. It will take time and maybe some reading.

Why should the first dungeon of the game require this gimmick, without instructing the players what they need to do to maximize their DPS?

You don’t need a ele frostbow to do it, just some people with power based builds that can attack object effectively.

To be quite honest I would be disappointed if any of the dungeons were newb easy. Messing up and learning is how it was done to begin with. Now that all the dungeons have been reduced to their bare essence and put on youtube there is no excuse for the laziness of not knowing basic dungeon mechanics however. Not knowing basics in this day and age = fail at googling. Besides, once you know what to do nearly every dungeon in this game is relatively simple.

Step 1. Research your path. Youtube is a good resource.
Step 2. Have a build that isn’t terrible and know how to use it effectively in a dungeon setting. Terrible builds are ones that don’t include DPS as a main consideration.
Step 3. Execute strategy.
Step 4. Profit

notabot.3497:

You don’t need a ele frostbow to do it, just some people with power based builds that can attack object effectively.

To be quite honest I would be disappointed if any of the dungeons were newb easy. Messing up and learning is how it was done to begin with. Now that all the dungeons have been reduced to their bare essence and put on youtube there is no excuse for the laziness of not knowing basic dungeon mechanics however. Not knowing basics in this day and age = fail at googling. Besides, once you know what to do nearly every dungeon in this game is relatively simple.

Step 1. Research your path. Youtube is a good resource.
Step 2. Have a build that isn’t terrible and know how to use it effectively in a dungeon setting. Terrible builds are ones that don’t include DPS as a main consideration.
Step 3. Execute strategy.
Step 4. Profit

I think queen’s general point is main objectives in a dungeon shouldn’t really need research. but on the flipside, only power stat counts to help with the event so it may be a bad example.

In short: game is not intuitive, and to some extent i agree.

Off the top of my head:
- AC troll orb is not a projectile and unblockable.
why? that is just ignoring the same combat mechanics anet boasted. we expect to block things, we expect to absorb reflect projectiles when it definitely looks like one.

- First floor tower of nightmares champ hydra boss. same issue, his multishot life blast. Again that definitely looks like a projectile. why cant i reflect/absorb it?

- Arah p1 before final boss. there are 2 rooms that shoot what is seemingly a projectile at you. NOPE it’s not a projectile says anet.

- Southsun cove LS, canache fight. explain why land mines only explode when we step on it and it doesn’t when the boss steps on it (unless “activated” which becomes the opposite)? FYI general understanding of land mines is if anyone steps on it, it goes boom. It doesn’t ask who stepped on it. It doesn’t even look like a futuristic landmine with identity recognition.

- Lupi eats grub > stronger atk and amror > absolutely 0 visual representation. No scrolling over his buffs and reading it is not a good way of conveying this. Do not expect people to read buffs to get the general idea. reading it is additional insight, not a driving mechanic especially in an action-LIKE game.

I would expect poison gas, burning floors and etc to be unblockable, but i expect to block objects that are hurled towards me. keyword: intuitive.

I’m sure there are more unintuitive mechanics or objectives in the game that are left unpolished since obviously we all bought an early-access game (hyperbole – but the general idea is there).

Dungeons ( starting with AC ) are wayyyy to big of a challenge for a new player migrating from another mmo ( or new to mmo’s ) , and the fact that leveling is a snooz fest doesn’t help prepare them either

My first AC run i went down so many times it was NOT funny. The “lovers” got me down so many times in ~1-2 seconds that i eventually got kitten ed and quit ( not even gonna mention the troll ).

The game doesn’t have some small tips for you after death ( like you got killed by illusion shattering, try to kill them first next time , or dodge this, get behind cover when he does that , etc ) to help new players.

That players want a challenge, fine, make exploration paths hard as kitten, but leave story mode in a more casual way, for every tom kitten and jane that is not a mmo fanatic and just wants to have some fun ….

There’s enough casual instances in the game.

Do your story.

Because dungeons and story are the same …. elitist kittens made it over from wow i see , too bad you didn’t lose the ability to connect to the internet on they way here

personal opinion.

I have not played any MMO’s before GW2. I am not going to count the grand total of 45 min I spent in WoW.

Been playing since launch. I got the fancy letter in my mailbox about this place called ascalonian catacombs. “whats this” I ask myself. ohh its a “dungeon” lets give it a try.

3 hours later and more wipes than I care to admit too. the party called it done. “holy cow this is hard”

you know what I did.

I went and leveled. because… well that’s what you do right? I was not strong enough. so I went and got stronger. Made it to level 40. got the invite for CM. “hmmm maybe I will go try that AC again.”

Hey look at that I made it. Whats this? an explorable mode? that sounds like fun.

the point in all of it. if you think that its to hard. Go get better. it what you do in all the other games right? Cant beat a oblivion portal? hmm maybe I need to get different stuff? It took me almost a year to actually read anything on the forums. and you know what I see. a majority of people complaining about how stuff is to hard….

really?

you want to know how long it took me to make my first legendary? about 3 months. and I spent exactly 0 hours on the champion train. because I paid attention. I know where to get stuff. because I went there. I leveled 3 different toons to fractal level 20 before the patch. and I PuG’ed ALL of it. I am the one now teaching my 300 plus person guild how to run fractals, and how to run dungeons. because I paid attention. I am by no means as good as MANY of the dungeon forum regulars. but some of them have taken me underneath their wing and shown me some cool stuff. because I want to be better.

you think stuff is to hard.
I think you are to lazy to try, and to stubborn to learn.

Ropechef.6192:

I think you are to lazy to try, and to stubborn to learn.

God bless.

Bread is entirely correct, and yes I do think the dungeons lack intuitive mechanics. No dungeon should require you to look it up on Dulfy or Youtube. If you go in, you should have a decent enough chance at it, without having to research it first.

I also agree with all your other points, but I won’t quote it all, people can scroll up to read it. The game has some very unintuitive gimmicks in it’s dungeons, and is inconsistent in it’s rules. Especially regarding what projectiles can be reflected, and which can’t. Which area attacks do minor damage, and which are an insta kill.

Sure you can learn them all by heart, but that’s trial and error, and not very good design. New players should have a way of anticipating what they’re up against without doing research. And to those who think the burrows in P3 are easy, did you experience them at launch? They’ve been heavily tweaked since then, they were nearly impossible before without frostbows. We had people spamming fiery great swords and frost bows, we knew all the spots they’d pop up, we’d use speed boosts and our highest DPS, and still we would fail at clearing them in time (or the gravelings would overwhelm some of my squishier team mates). AC P3 is extremely unforgiving, and way too much DPS focused. And for what? It doesn’t add an extra layer of fun.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

No dungeon should require you to look it up on Dulfy or Youtube.

But not a single one of them does!

TKiller.6829:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

No dungeon should require you to look it up on Dulfy or Youtube.

But not a single one of them does!

Many of them contain gimmicks that the player could not know about, unless they looked it up first. Several posters already commented that such players should simply research the dungeon before they do it, and this is what I’m referring to. No dungeon should require research. If I walk into AC for the first time, and encounter Kholer, I would reasonably expect that this is a mini boss, and that me and my team should be okay to fight him. He should not be tougher than every single end boss in the entire dungeon! Same for the troll, he is a bonus event. Bonus event bosses should not have instant down attacks. Especially not in the very first dungeon of the game.

Now this doesn’t mean dungeons can’t be challenging, but you have to teach the players the rules first, and there have to be mechanics that the players can reasonably adapt to. No insta-kills, or heavy DPS requirements in a first time dungeon. What the dungeon designers seem to lack, is a responsible lead designer who ensures that certain design rules are enforced on the overall design. I get a very strong vibe that these dungeons were a rush job. There weren’t any clear rules worked out when they started working on them, and they didn’t have any clear plan for a gradual difficulty curve. The lay out of the dungeons also seems to hint that the whole three paths thing was tossed in at the very last minute.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

TKiller.6829:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

No dungeon should require you to look it up on Dulfy or Youtube.

But not a single one of them does!

No dungeon should require research. If I walk into AC for the first time, and encounter Kholer, I would reasonably expect that this is a mini boss, and that me and my team should be okay to fight him.

I don’t even have an image macro suitable for emotions I am feeling towards you right now.

Now then I could I agree that AC is not the easiest dungeon out there and can bait a person into thinking since it’s a first one it “must be easy oh kitten kitten how did I die”.

But then I just

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

No dungeon should require research. If I walk into AC for the first time, and encounter Kholer, I would reasonably expect that this is a mini boss, and that me and my team should be okay to fight him.

and I’m like “oh okay it’s like her/his opinion anyway” but then I again

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

No dungeon should require research. If I walk into AC for the first time, and encounter Kholer, I would reasonably expect that this is a mini boss, and that me and my team should be okay to fight him.

and lose it.

Lets just say that my design principles tend to lean more towards being user friendly. I like my players to know exactly what they are in for, and adapt as they play. Rather than them failing first, feeling discouraged, failing again, and then starting to lose their patience.

An opponent like Kholer is terribly misplaced. He would be a suitable end boss for the dungeon with his current difficulty, but personally I would then tone down the damage he deals so it’s not an insta-kill. Similar, I’d make random opponents such as the troll easier, by giving them less HP, and no instant-down attacks.

If an enemy such as Kholer was to be the end boss of the dungeon, I would include many enemies or obstacles in the dungeon that gradually teach the players the mechanics of the boss as they make their way to them. So there might be harpooning traps, or an enemy type that can throw a harpoon. Then once the players reach the final boss, they’d be familiar with the mechanics, and would only need to adapt to his pattern (which they would be able to do without wiping first). That is in my opinion solid level design.

A dungeon should be fun from start to finish. There shouldn’t be any cheap deaths. Every time a player dies, he should think to himself ‘that was entirely my own fault’. I also don’t like gauntlets of traps that instantly kill the player if they make even the slightest mistake. It should be possible to turn off such traps before you run through the tunnel. This also goes for that annoying spiked room in the basement of Caudecus Manor (the part where you don’t have pillows to go across). Or that annoying bomb gauntlet in CoF part 3. If a trap or obstacle requires several attempts to master, don’t make it insta-kill. That’s very unfriendly towards the players, and simply not fun or fair. That is one thing they got right in Fractals. Spike traps just do damage and cripple, and falling down teleports you back up and then downs you, instead of outright killing you.

notabot.3497:

On the variations of dungeons. In GW1 they had these huge multi path dungeons that required organized groups to effectively clear. Emphasis on effectively. After a very short time of these areas the best builds and paths ways to run these became well known. A skillbar ping required on joining. Failed basic duty = kick. Suck too much and get kicked out of guild if it was a pve speed clear guild. The different paths were an illusion, it was all about running the same path order, pulling the same mobs, balling up the entire instance in one spike ball and clearing content in minutes that takes unorganized groups hours (or not at all). The dungeons in this game are easy by comparison.

Totally. Lets not forget the entry fee, fee for con sets too, heck and the money to even get IN there. Goodluck being an ele if you dont take 2 specific builds and you better link em.

Not speedclearing random pug group GOOOD LUCKKKKKK

FOW —-
Please! At spawn 4 groups will insta kitten your buttocks if you dont instantly move.

This kitten harder than gw1? Haha only if you were as bad as me :P

Rest assured people see you playing badly or taking too long. bye bye.

Cant tell what groups do instantly? Good luck in GW1 they pretty much had complete groups in pve. Expect a mesmer war ele para mesmer mesmerr mesmerr messskitteningmerrr x2

Goodluck when your party member has panic and you dont know it.

Rest assured if they cnat handle gw2 difficulty they cant handle gw1 diff unless they copy paste pvxwiki (or whatever it is nowadays) but they wont cuz looking at a video is too hard or dying and taking the time to think is too much for them.

from my perspective, im fine with instakill stuff and difficulty. the moves are usually very very telegraphed anyway. im also not a stranger to it since i made love with demon;s souls and dark souls so many times.

mainly the problem is the game has too many unintuitive and inconsistent design; no polish.

for bosses, there are only 2 or 3 that can be considered an actual boss and these bosses including lupi are like a cheap version of what most action games offer in terms of behaviour and movesets. I guess they didnt pay too much love for enemies in the game, but it is one of the main factors why gameplay stays fun.

it’s easy to make something difficult (just do a jay wilson), it’s harder to make something challenging.

DonQuack.9025:

Totally. Lets not forget the entry fee, fee for con sets too, heck and the money to even get IN there. Goodluck being an ele if you dont take 2 specific builds and you better link em.
Not speedclearing random pug group GOOOD LUCKKKKKK
—— FOW —-
Please! At spawn 4 groups will insta kitten your buttocks if you dont instantly move.
This kitten harder than gw1? Haha only if you were as bad as me :P
Rest assured people see you playing badly or taking too long. bye bye.

GW1’s dungeons certainly weren’t without their problems. I even did a fairly extensive break down of all the design flaws in the quests for the Underworld . And FoW is not that different with that npc that runs off at the start of the dungeon if anyone talks to him, and then gets killed, thus failing the mission.

But the dungeons in GW1 certainly were more enjoyable. For the most part this was due to a better combat system, defined roles that made people rely on each other, and more open dungeons (it was more of a freeroaming experience).

Youre speaking from an experienced point of view. The title is Lows and newbies. ofcourse lows is irrelevant in gw1, but newbies in any of those dungeons ? Just finished getting ascended and going into FOW UW heck MOST dungeons. wipe. Not insta as you have to run a bit.

No offense Clear role? Again You may be tainted? with experience. Remember the two prof skill system? Or maybe you just werent an ele. pre patch heck post patch.

I remember being new. I remember how much plat it cost me. Those dungeons werent forgiving as gw2. Lets not forget wipe = get out scrub and reorganize. + it was usually very clear who was crap Ah I miss it.

Also come on.. after a few times you were sick of it. you knew where everything was, what it did. There is no way to combat that except changing the whole thing every few X.

Also youre biased. It isnt better you just prefer it, probably because you have X years experience in it. GW2 has defined roles that make people rely on each other.
Roles – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_w4BQstxXvY

Ill give you more open dungeons. With more running to places…

ah remember being a sin? shadow form or gtfo Theres youre defined roles. well were xD oh goodness I need to reinstall

DonQuack.9025:

Youre speaking from an experienced point of view. The title is Lows and newbies. ofcourse lows is irrelevant in gw1, but newbies in any of those dungeons ? Just finished getting ascended and going into FOW UW heck MOST dungeons. wipe. Not insta as you have to run a bit.

No offense Clear role? Again You may be tainted? with experience. Remember the two prof skill system? Or maybe you just werent an ele. pre patch heck post patch.

I remember being new. I remember how much plat it cost me. Those dungeons werent forgiving as gw2. Lets not forget wipe = get out scrub and reorganize.

Eh yes, but UW and FoW in GW1 were elite endgame dungeons. Not the first dungeon you encounter in the game at low levels. You were expected to be level 20, and have completed the game before entering them. AC is an entirely different matter. It’s a dungeon in a starter area, to which you receive an invite at a very low level.

DonQuack.9025:

No offense Clear role? Again You may be tainted? with experience. Remember the two prof skill system? Or maybe you just werent an ele. pre patch heck post patch.

No what I mean, is that in GW1 it was very clear what kinds of roles your class was suitable to fulfill, and what their contribution could be in a dungeon. An elementalist was a valuable addition to any dungeon group in GW1 since release, simply due to being a nuker. Necromancers were valued due to one skill, spiteful spirit, and warriors were basically considered tanks. And no one went anywhere without a monk. Clear defined roles.

Lvl 20 in gw1 Was lvl 1. It shares the same patterns with the lvl 30 dungeon here.

PvE generally you could take whatever build you wanted, heck you didnt even have to put up with other humans.

Second you leave “lala regular game land to dungeon land” welcome to pain.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Dungeon Ok UW FOW elites. I still see most newbies (not newbies cuz they had to make it through a much harder pve experience) wiping in there.

" An elementalist was a valuable addition to any dungeon group in GW1 since release, simply due to being a nuker. "

Lol wut? Ele/me ele/mo heck in a pinch ele/sin.

DonQuack.9025:

Lvl 20 in gw1 Was lvl 1. It shares the same patterns with the lvl 30 dungeon here.

Eh, no. Pre-searing was level 1. Once you reached level 20 in GW1 (roughly when you hit the Crystal Desert) you had already worked yourself through enough PVE content to understand the game, and beaten many long missions. Level 20 in GW1 was basically what level 80 is in GW2. It is when you started working towards better looking armors, and hunting remaining elites.

DonQuack.9025:

" An elementalist was a valuable addition to any dungeon group in GW1 since release, simply due to being a nuker. "

Lol wut? Ele/me ele/mo heck in a pinch ele/sin.

What are you saying?

I think what he was saying is due to how ele played at harder content they were better as ele/X where X defines their role more than the base class.

Well that would simply not be true. From the game’s release up to the Nightfall campaign, I’ve always shared pugs with elementalists who would mostly be an elementalist. An Ele/Me for example would usually just use echo to be able to cast an extra meteorshower or something similar. Then we got the Obsy-tank, and other metas. But they would still be at their core an elementalist first, and their secondary profession second. UW, FOW, DOA and Slavers Exile teams were full of pure elementalists.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Well that would simply not be true. From the game’s release up to the Nightfall campaign, I’ve always shared pugs with elementalists who would mostly be an elementalist. An Ele/Me for example would usually just use echo to be able to cast an extra meteorshower or something similar. Then we got the Obsy-tank, and other metas. But they would still be at their core an elementalist first, and their secondary profession second. UW, FOW, DOA and Slavers Exile teams were full of pure elementalists.

• and newbies!*——>

>dont know those. You keep switching to experienced speed clear teams using “speed clear” techniques.

DonQuack.9025:

---

>dont know those. You keep switching to experienced speed clear teams using “speed clear” techniques.

Then perhaps I didn’t express myself clearly. My point was that in GW1 the classes had very clear purposes and roles. Even if you weren’t an experienced player, it was very clear what an elementalist was good at. Nuking for example. In fact, meteorshower found its way on to most skillbars of new players and also experienced players. And this wasn’t only in the dungeons, but also in the story missions.

With GW2 it is really unclear. What is the purpose of a necromancer in a dungeon? What is it that we excel at? Or what of an elementalist? And is it something you’d specifically want a necro or ele in your party for? In GW1 these roles were clearly defined, which meant that most classes (except the mesmer) found a place in teams. But with GW2, I haven’t got a clue. All I know is that people really like warriors, guardians and one mesmer with reflect.

AC Story mode is the only path balanced for low levels and that was only after the post-release revamp.

I am sure Anet did not want it to turn out that way, but it is clear the dungeons were rushed at the end of the 5 year development cycle, instead of being worked on in parallel with the rest of the game.

The fact that they ended up this way was a result of randomness from poor project management, not design intent.

They started to revamp all of the dungeons, and got AC story mode to a good place, but then they let go the guy in charge of that effort. So who knows what will happen now.

In my opinion they should just focus on new dungeons and get them right the first time.

Hmm, funny thing about lowbies and n00bs is that we are all those things once, back when this game first started. The advantage of players today is that they have a mix of seasoned players to help the inexperienced learn, that is if they are willing to do so.

I’d love to see more dungeons and improvements to existing ones but sadly our game overlords have other priorities.

Lucky.9421:

They started to revamp all of the dungeons, and got AC story mode to a good place, but then they let go the guy in charge of that effort. So who knows what will happen now.

In my opinion they should just focus on new dungeons and get them right the first time.

They have a lot of good talent though. Take Josh for example and his excellent work on Super Adventure Box. This just shows that if some of the devs are given a bit of freedom and enough time, they can come up with some amazing content. But if they want to get the dungeons to that level of fun, I think they’re going to have to let go of a lot of previous conceived rules, but also work on balancing the PVE better.

Profession discrimination was one of the worst things about GW1 (and many other MMO’s for that matter), and the need to always find a monk was also a big problem. I don’t think they’ve solved this problem by simply removing the trinity in it’s entirely. By removing the roles, we now find ourselves in a situation where all classes can do a little bit of everything, but not at an equal level. And so there’s yet again a balance issue.

Some dungeon encounters seem specifically designed with reflection in mind, but not all classes have reflection. That is a problem. Some boss encounters spam a ton of attacks that require more endurance than just 2 dodges, but not all classes have access to extra endurance. That is also a problem. Some of you might say, then bring a guardian for endurance, or a mesmer for reflects! But there is the big pitfall. Weren’t we stepping away from the requirement for a specific class? How is this any different from the monk-problem in GW1?

So we’re kind of stuck with two contradicting design philosophies. On the one hand we want to play the way we want, and not be required to bring a specific class to do a dungeon. On the other hand we want depth in our combat encounters, and we want dungeons to challenge us with interesting mechanics. How do you make the encounters interesting, without falling back on profession specific skills? How do you make boss battles more than just a big punching bag of hit points, without requiring a reflect specifically, or more dodges than some classes have access to?

Just out of curiosity, outside of high fractals, what classes and fights are you talking about? I’ve seen every class in normal dungeon runs be effective. Sure some dungeons have classes that have a mechanic that trivializes fights, like reflects or frostbow ect, but honestly you don’t need them. If each player builds his character competently, gears it correctly, and doesn’t just spam skills on cooldown, everything can be done quickly and efficiently regardless of class.

Its when you get players who don’t know their class at all, who gear incorrectly, trait poorly, and run around like chickens with their heads chopped off when things become difficult. The funny thing is most content can be carried by 1-2 good party members, so the poorer players don’t even know how bad they are until they get a party of only less capable players.

Even a full group of new player if they play in an organized manner can clear most paths with just a little bit of effort. We have come a long way from WP zerging like pugs did shortly after release, why don’t more people play like it?

I broadly agree with MQM. The dungeons seem to be in a strange place because they have been designed for experienced players rather than for new players without tactics, but the most experienced players can rush through them anyway. The dungeons fail both audiences somehow. As MQM said, the prime examples are traps that are fatal when done wrong but take 2 seconds when done right. They penalize the newcomers and are no obstacle (and little fun) for experienced players.

On the other hand the game is designed to reward high skill and good builds, particularly in PvP. The capability gap is massive between new players and experienced players. Originally the dungeons were meant to be difficult content but with ascended items in the game the experienced players are elsewhere fighting bosses for dragonite (using auto-shots).

Stooperdale.3560:

I broadly agree with MQM. The dungeons seem to be in a strange place because they have been designed for experienced players rather than for new players without tactics, but the most experienced players can rush through them anyway. The dungeons fail both audiences somehow. As MQM said, the prime examples are traps that are fatal when done wrong but take 2 seconds when done right. They penalize the newcomers and are no obstacle (and little fun) for experienced players.

Exactly! And they are going to have to come up with some sort of a solution to appease both audiences. One step would be to add gating mechanics. I know, it’s cheap. But running past everything is not what a dungeon should be about.

Second, they need to get rid of insta-kill gimmicks. These things are all over the game, and punish new players way too harshly (and ruin all the fun), while making it way too easy on experienced players.

Thirdly, and this is the hardest part, they need to add depth to the combat. Now that the trinity is gone, classes are no longer reliant on each other (except on the guardian), and this means the PVE combat is missing something to keep it interesting at it’s very core. Dodging and hitting things is not enough. Control skills could be pushed to the fore front (get rid of Defiant), bosses could be given phases (instead of repeating them selves the whole fight long), and team play should be encouraged. There should also be a place for support builds, and I think they should build in some sort of a reliance on that. No team should be able to breeze through these dungeons with just their zerker gear.

And finally, they need to come up with a way for these dungeons to remain interesting after doing them once. Less linear design and random content are the way to go, along with exploration and rewards for exploring dungeons. And there should also be more dynamic events in dungeons.

notabot.3497:

Just out of curiosity, outside of high fractals, what classes and fights are you talking about? I’ve seen every class in normal dungeon runs be effective. Sure some dungeons have classes that have a mechanic that trivializes fights, like reflects or frostbow ect, but honestly you don’t need them.

So some dungeons have mechanics that trivialize the fights for some classes, due to those classes having access to things like reflects and frostbow…. that’s terrible! It’s indefensible. Yet you make it sound like it is okay, as long as every class can do the dungeon. But mean while some classes breeze through these encounters, while other classes struggle tremendously. It’s not a level playing field, and this poses a problem when people are deciding which class they want on their team.

notabot.3497:

If each player builds his character competently, gears it correctly, and doesn’t just spam skills on cooldown, everything can be done quickly and efficiently regardless of class.

But not with the same measure of success, the same speed, or the same effectiveness.

notabot.3497:

The funny thing is most content can be carried by 1-2 good party members, so the poorer players don’t even know how bad they are until they get a party of only less capable players.

Sadly those one or two party members you are talking about, are usually guardians. Alarm bells should start ringing right there.

I don’t think “experienced” players are solely doing boss fights other than a post reset rush of them as they pop up on the tracker. If you actually did dungeon regularly you will find good to excellent groups even pugging for their daily path bonus chests. Problem is the really good dungeon runners are largely doing guild runs when they can because how bad “play how you want” players can be.

Also, IDK how I feel about “new players without tactics” Just because you are new doesn’t mean you automatically are bad and lack situation awareness. I’ve partied with Sub 1ks that don’t know the content but know how to play well enough to clear even tricky dungeon sections.

Most traps are instant down at the very worst, you can recover if the team works together. They are also easy to avoid with 10 seconds observation of them.

notabot.3497:

Most traps are instant down at the very worst, you can recover if the team works together. They are also easy to avoid with 10 seconds observation of them.

I hear a lot of people say that, but that is far from the reality. I’ve taken a lot of inexperienced players into dungeons, and they get their armor torn to shreds by instant death traps. Because if a trap downs you without moving you to a safe location afterwards, anyone trying to help you up will also get downed, and you’ll both die.

Fractals is different in that regard, because traps that down you, teleport you to a safe location (if they don’t bug out).

It’s easy to yell that those players lack situational awareness, or are just not taking their time to study the trap. But a lot of the people I’ve taken into these dungeons are pretty experienced MMO and RPG players. But GW2’s dungeons frustrated them to tears.

Bare in mind that I have taken these very same players through dungeons in DnD Online, where they had to dodge countless razorblades (sometimes underwater), jump across steamvalves, make their way past flamethrowers and dart traps, and fight Beholders with instant death rays, and I never heard a peep out of them. They had a blast. Take them into the very first dungeon in GW2 and they never want to do a dungeon again.

Something is clearly wrong here.

I’ve carried teams with mesmer, guardian, warrior, and occasionally ele (its still sub 80 and I suck with it, but I can carry groups with frost bow and FGS). I have a 80 necro that I’ve used to teach some people, but I don’t like using it most of the time since I don’t know the ins and outs of it like my main 3. Its easier to carry with guard because of spamming aegis/blinds, but that isn’t the only way to carry. I’ve seen thiefs carry teams before (trash run escorts are very useful for bad pugs), IDK engies enough to comment, and a good ranger, while rare, can be amazing.

I have raided in MMO’s since EQ. I am currently starting up in GW2 and went to AC on story mode. I expect when I walk into my first dungeon in a complex new MMO to effecitively train me in skills a bit. Provide me with examples of strats I need to know and not be particularly difficult. My experience playing AC on story mode without doing a bunch of research was a nightmare. I do not intend to revisit dungeons again until level 80. It was a very unenjoyable experience.

It’s funny to see how many here come up with the “git gud” argument.
You can be the worst player with no skill at all and still complete a dungeon very easy if you know the content and are in a good/decent group. On the other hand you can be a skilled newbie and still go down and fail several times if you don’t know the content. Duneons require knowledge not skill. Many here think they are so good because their gigantic egos tell them that but the truth is you aren’t as “good” as you think you are you just know the dungeon mechanics that’s all. All those “Boss at 1%” sellers aren’t skilled they’re just Thiefs wo skip everything because of their insanely overpowered stealth. They really should add a solo mode for each dungeon where the trash mobs and bosses are easier and 4 NPC’s accompany you, that way new players can get to know the dungeon mechanics without bothering the wannabe “elite”.

Ends.9260:

I have raided in MMO’s since EQ. I am currently starting up in GW2 and went to AC on story mode. I expect when I walk into my first dungeon in a complex new MMO to effecitively train me in skills a bit. Provide me with examples of strats I need to know and not be particularly difficult. My experience playing AC on story mode without doing a bunch of research was a nightmare. I do not intend to revisit dungeons again until level 80. It was a very unenjoyable experience.

AC story is good training. Some traps to avoid, some aoes to dodge out of, some fights that require dungeon objects (boulders), some use of CC to make the fight against the lovers easier. Condition spamming enemies to show the importance of cleansing. yeah, it didn’t’ hold your hand and out right tell you what you need to do, players are expected to either discover what to do through trial and error, or just spend 20 seconds on google…

It was probably bad for you because you didn’t really know how to play your class, and neither did your party members. The open world is too easy and the pass/fail environment of dungeons is a shock to some players. Story modes by and large are super easy too, so if you had trouble with it you might need to look up info on how to play your class, or get some friends in your guild to help you with figuring it out.

The biggest thing you can probably learn in this game is dodge = no damage most of the time. You can’t facetank much if you want to remain effective too.