Efficiency VS the so fabled elitism
Finally, some common sense. I love you. +1
Now replace “CoF p1” with “every single Dungeon in the game”
Oh boy, my first thought when I woke up was “we sure could use another thread about CoF/Elitism on this forum, I’m pretty sure it would say a lot of things that haven’t been said a million times before” .
“People wanting content where Berserker sucks should remember that it needs be so hard
that they will cry, not just a river, but a huge ocean.” – Wethospu
‘that’s when I went to get my zerker gear ready so I wouldn’t be inefficient and didn’t get kicked from farming parties, instead of complaining about it on the forums’
THANKYOU I have been kittening waiting to see this. Someone actually getting up off their kitten and instead of complaining and crying about how it’s not fair, actually getting their kitten together and becoming efficient.
|-Swiftpaw Sharpclaw [DnT]-|
Molch, i ’d rather have good runners than bad berzerkers in Arah P1 ^^
I’d rather solo the dungeon than having good runners in pvt gear who think they are contributing to the fight because they don’t die. Also in my experience tge gear does not decide if someone is able to get through somewhere, i often get new pugs who ask for advice and follow it in berserker gear who skip something second try and i often get “experienced” people in PVT gear who give up trying after their 20’s death.
Molch, i ’d rather have good runners than bad berzerkers in Arah P1 ^^
Good VS Bad Beserker players is an entirely different topic !
This is only about the requirements for specific runs.
That said,
I’ve run beserker in arah and done quite well.
3 zerk warriors 1 guardian 1 mesmer for the win.
4 Warriors + 1 Guardian or 5 Warriors is even better i’d say. Mesmers actually suck, they are incredibly slow, deal no damage and are only important at a very few situations.
Yeah saw that lately too. He always startedPhase 3 with AoE lifeleech and 3 dumb pugs were standing in it so he healed over 60% hp.
I believe a necro in full PVT can tank a number of aoe hits from GL. But only because of DS scaling with vit and over 31k hp. Still not worth it though.
And lupicus really doesn’t give a crap if you wear PVT gear or not. People who don’t dodge the AoE during phase 2 die, it’s technically impossible to tank that AoE (Maybe with full sentinel gear? The fact is, I’ve known people who were wearing PVT from head to toe, and not dodging the AoE from phase 2 still kills them). The only thing PVT buys you is the ability to take a kick in melee (and be downed to 20% hp) or take one more tick in a bubble. If you don’t dodge or use stability you still die. And god forbid you don’t dodge the lifesteal from phase 3 because you can take a little bit more damage in your PVT because you will actually be doing negative DPS and I’ve seen Lupicus go back to phase 2 from 3 back and forth as in a comedy streak in various pugs who didn’t dodge it much. If you do negative dps during lupicus you’re basically a leech.
Never checked it but perhaps guardian with prot (hammer, HtL), signet of judgement, perfect inscriptions and sentinel gear would be able to actually pull that off. If my calculactions are correct (here’s the build) he would have 24k and 91.5% damage reduction with protection up and 58.5% without.
Glad to see term “negative dps” is getting more attention!
4 Warriors + 1 Guardian or 5 Warriors is even better i’d say. Mesmers actually suck, they are incredibly slow, deal no damage and are only important at a very few situations.
I hate running my mesmer in Arah… No swiftness, crap damage, no mobility, crap stability for skipping, stealth is a joke…
Skipping trash on a mesmer is what makes me hate it so much… Not necessarily because it’s so hard (although I’ve gotten my kitten kicked in p2 a number of times now, dem sentinels hit hard…) but because you’re SO SLOW, and completely dependent on your party for swiftness, because the only form you get (temp curtain) is bugged up the kitten …
“People wanting content where Berserker sucks should remember that it needs be so hard
that they will cry, not just a river, but a huge ocean.” – Wethospu
Lol saying that 5 warriors would be better than 1 mesmer in cof either proves that you haven’t ran cof enough or that you really just don’t understand the role. Time warp, portal, curtain pulls, doubling might at slave driver, gate, effigy, feedback dropping 40k at a time on effigy. Also, even though i like the idea of this thread, if they don’t get it by now they will simply never get it.
He was talking mainly about Arah I think, seeing how it’s Dub…
Also, this part made me lol:
feedback dropping 40k at a time on effigy
That’s really nice that your mesmer can do 40k on the effigy once every ~30 seconds, but your warrior will be pumping that damage in about 5-8 seconds consistently…
I agree that a mesmer probably makes CoF p1 go faster, but it’s practically useless in Fractals 48 for example… I’d rather bring an Ele or an extra warrior there… Not to mention, in Arah the only thing it really brings to your run is Feedback for Lupi and some TW’s here and there.. But if you ran 1g/4w or 5w who know how to dodge the AoE in phase 2, or the guardian just uses shield #5 to block the damage while the warriors keep DPS’ing, you can get him out of phase 2 before he gets the chance to use that attack a second time…
“People wanting content where Berserker sucks should remember that it needs be so hard
that they will cry, not just a river, but a huge ocean.” – Wethospu
I agree OP, but that also depends on your definition.
“Elitists” strive to be the best by optimizing their game play—aka become more efficient.
I guess I dont really see the difference. I feel like your talking about the same thing, but avoiding the word “elitist” because of the negative stigma attached because of the significant trauma they have caused to anyone that’s in any way been associated with WoW.
I’m actually surprised these people that are always labeling others ‘elitists’ in these forums, are not jumping on this thread in outrage. Particularly the ones in the COF farm threads.
Come on guys, Scumbag elitist Swiftpaw is waiting for you.
|-Swiftpaw Sharpclaw [DnT]-|
How about we blame AN for nerfing everything that makes money forcing us to do fast dungeon runs where the easy mechanics favor Zerker Warrior runs ?
I’m shocked to come back after 6 months and still see Warrior glass cannons as optimal dungeons runners…
100% World completion.
If you’re spending 5 minutes finding specific kinds of people, making them all link gear and then hemming and hawing over minutia like sigil choices in hopes to shave 4 minutes off your run, it’s not really about efficiency.
Also, it’s not like this is the first time somebody’s tried the “Don’t call me Elitist, I’m just obeying the meta!” angle. Elitism is a derogatory word people sling at an attitude problem, not any particular level of Meta participation or discussion. If you’re getting called it, it’s time to dial back on the rude and the forum-speak. It’s very easy to lose sight of this fact when you’re on them, but very few people within any MMORPG’s population ever comes to forums, so it’s important that when you’re in the game interacting with others you don’t take forum-knowledge for granted in your fellow player.
(edited by Vox Hollow.2736)
If you’re spending 5 minutes finding specific kinds of people, making them all link gear and then hemming and hawing over minutia like sigil choices in hopes to shave 4 minutes off your run, it’s not really about efficiency.
Also, it’s not like this is the first time somebody’s tried the “Don’t call me Elitist, I’m just obeying the meta!” angle. Elitism is a derogatory word for an attitude problem, not any particular level of Meta participation or discussion. If you’re getting called it, it’s time to dial back on the rude and the forum-speak. It’s very easy to lose sight of this fact when you’re on them, but very few people within any MMORPG’s population ever comes to any forums, so it’s important that when you’re in the game interacting with others you don’t take forum-knowledge for granted in your fellow player.
As a professional scumbag elitist, I would like to take the time to say I am a very nice, kind and respectable individual.
Now, as for taking the time to find people to shave time off your runs.. when you are doing the runs for say, 3 hours, and you save 4 minutes or so each run.. it adds up and will save you time in the long run yes?
|-Swiftpaw Sharpclaw [DnT]-|
(edited by swiftpaw.6397)
Lol saying that 5 warriors would be better than 1 mesmer in cof either proves that you haven’t ran cof enough or that you really just don’t understand the role. Time warp, portal, curtain pulls, doubling might at slave driver, gate, effigy, feedback dropping 40k at a time on effigy. Also, even though i like the idea of this thread, if they don’t get it by now they will simply never get it.
First off he obviously was not talking about Cof. Secondly I would love to see jus how fast a guard instead of a mes would be. GS 5 can do the first pull the same as a Mesmer plus wall of reflect stops the blazer attacks.
Hammer 4 does the push against the wall just the same as a Mesmer. Retreat is a much better speed buff than the mesmer’s.
The Mesmer portal is useless and doesn’t save any time if you have 3 people that know They can grab and go down the left side right of the start every time without dying. It’s actually faster than portal.
As for the final boss it would be TW vs stability. A zerker guard and zerker Mesmer would be close in damage. A guard can keep up stability allowing for no canceled HB’s but a Mesmer has TW. I don’t think it would be much different in time. Seconds.
(edited by x per fection x.2096)
@swiftpaw
As much as I like a rousing game of theorycraft; the game where everything’s made up and the points don’t matter.
We can’t actually come to a finite decision here. There really aren’t any universal numbers involved with factors like ‘waiting for people’ and ‘communicating with other human beings’. There’s just an observation from me that you can undermine yourself with your own pickiness so maybe when folks go above and beyond to the point of risking that it might be because they feel there’s a value in the act of being picky itself. And fervent pledge of hope from you that multitude of tricky human factors aside it’ll all work out in the end. That’s prettymuch the extent of where either of us can go with it.
(edited by Vox Hollow.2736)
4 Warriors + 1 Guardian or 5 Warriors is even better i’d say. Mesmers actually suck, they are incredibly slow, deal no damage and are only important at a very few situations.
I hate running my mesmer in Arah… No swiftness, crap damage, no mobility, crap stability for skipping, stealth is a joke…
Skipping trash on a mesmer is what makes me hate it so much… Not necessarily because it’s so hard (although I’ve gotten my kitten kicked in p2 a number of times now, dem sentinels hit hard…) but because you’re SO SLOW, and completely dependent on your party for swiftness, because the only form you get (temp curtain) is bugged up the kitten …
Are you not running with warriors? Drop banners, kill boss, use banners at end of fight to give every1 swiftness, then move. Also as a mesmer you might even consider carrying a banner between fights for swiftness + the charge, drop when you need your weapons to escape something.
Holding some classes and builds in higher regard than others is still elitist, no matter the reason. The problem with this game in particular though is that it’s not really the fault of the players that such elitism exists; the game’s PvE meta is completely DPS-centric and creates large gaps in efficiency between certain classes and builds. Warriors simply fill the role of DPS better than other classes, and since that’s 90% of what you need in this game there’s no reason to take classes that sacrifice DPS to excel in other categories other than maybe a guardian for boons and reflects and a mesmer for time warp. I’m not a fan of elitism myself, but until Anet balances PvE to make it require more strategy and skill than just straight DPS speed runs, there’s really no way to say that it’s not justified.
so are others classes allowed to farm CoF p1 besides mesmer and warrior?
previously rank 2 on old leaderboards
EG.secret.OG.NAVI.sorrychief
@ Black Box
[deadpan]Oh no, please don’t exclude people from grinding. Anything but that. You utter monsters, you.[/deadpan]
I don’t mean to make light of design issues and balance problems.
It’s just…this is by far the most frivolous meta I’ve ever seen in an MMO. And I remember typing ‘N’ to go North. Opting out of it doesn’t keep you from new exciting content, or the next rung of a gear treadmill, or anything like that. It’s just grinding the same exact path for hours and hours and hours to afford a skin.
I can hardly believe there’s human beings that do that voluntarily, much less clamour for the privilege.
(edited by Vox Hollow.2736)
the main problem is that people arent educated. vast majority of players believe that war’s are the best dps.. sad truth that any zerker war that has a hammer/support ele knows that you dont even need a dps meter to know your ele does about double the dps as your war. whats better than auto attacking for up to 11k a second and having each swing heal your group for 550 and yourself for 750.
people just think war’s are better
also people think “heavy” are more likely to stay alive
people also think they need to run pvt gear in high level fractals instead of learning to survive and do damage and healing.
most people dont play the classes and learn what they can do. they find a forum and do what someone else says to do.
Holding some classes and builds in higher regard than others is still elitist, no matter the reason. The problem with this game in particular though is that it’s not really the fault of the players that such elitism exists; the game’s PvE meta is completely DPS-centric and creates large gaps in efficiency between certain classes and builds. Warriors simply fill the role of DPS better than other classes, and since that’s 90% of what you need in this game there’s no reason to take classes that sacrifice DPS to excel in other categories other than maybe a guardian for boons and reflects and a mesmer for time warp. I’m not a fan of elitism myself, but until Anet balances PvE to make it require more strategy and skill than just straight DPS speed runs, there’s really no way to say that it’s not justified.
So just because we dont want to contribte to charity means we’re elitists?
Because giving our time purely for other people’s gain is charity.
Oh we are such scumbags just because we dont want to waste our own very limited time.
Action-like games almost always revolve around taking mobs down as fast as possible if you want to be efficient. (Dark souls, monster hunter). Card games might be right up your alley; it seems to be the case
btw some other hammer ele’s that play zerk war’s should back me up so people can learn the truth. war’s arent the only dps class, fact is they cant out dps a hammer/support ele until they can learn to perma spam hundredblades without cooldown while walking.
Warriors out-dps thor eles by simply using 7-0. They don’t even have to attack.
i play both, and theres no contest a dps meter isnt even required. ele 25/20/0/25/0 top dps by far in the game and it has as more grp healing than an altruistic guard. dont be a sad panda because you rolled a war cause a forum said its the best dps lol
Holding some classes and builds in higher regard than others is still elitist, no matter the reason. The problem with this game in particular though is that it’s not really the fault of the players that such elitism exists; the game’s PvE meta is completely DPS-centric and creates large gaps in efficiency between certain classes and builds. Warriors simply fill the role of DPS better than other classes, and since that’s 90% of what you need in this game there’s no reason to take classes that sacrifice DPS to excel in other categories other than maybe a guardian for boons and reflects and a mesmer for time warp. I’m not a fan of elitism myself, but until Anet balances PvE to make it require more strategy and skill than just straight DPS speed runs, there’s really no way to say that it’s not justified.
So just because we dont want to contribte to charity means we’re elitists?
Because giving our time purely for other people’s gain is charity.
Oh we are such scumbags just because we dont want to waste our own very limited time.Action-like games almost always revolve around taking mobs down as fast as possible if you want to be efficient. (Dark souls, monster hunter). Card games might be right up your alley; it seems to be the case
Yes…? That’s exactly what I’m saying. The very definition of elitism is holding specific groups in higher regard than others, which is exactly what you’re doing when you’re picking and choosing in order to spare ‘contributing to charity’.
i play both, and theres no contest a dps meter isnt even required. ele 25/20/0/25/0 top dps by far in the game and it has as more grp healing than an altruistic guard. dont be a sad panda because you rolled a war cause a forum said its the best dps lol
Show me an elementalist lupicus solo without fgs in less than 7 minutes. Then i believe you.
And even if you could, warriors would still increase party’s damage output much more through banners and fgj than an elementalist ever could.
i play both, and theres no contest a dps meter isnt even required. ele 25/20/0/25/0 top dps by far in the game and it has as more grp healing than an altruistic guard. dont be a sad panda because you rolled a war cause a forum said its the best dps lol
Truly fun and challenging build. And so team independent.
i think my point is being missed, my point is the group make up of all wars and mesmers is a myth created by popular opinion rather than fact, truly creating false elitism.
on a fight like lupicus i would have to replace a war in the magic group structure to make a vid and prove it. in the common situation where people believe that war stacking is optimal it would be nearly impossible because groups think ele’s cannot handle that role because with thier equipable weapons thier dps is rather sad. its only with the mele summoned hammer that they can outshine.
this problem doesnt bother me. what does is that the masses are lead to think war’s are top and they clearly arent and anyone who happens to play both knows a well played hammer ele does 1.5 to 2x war damage while giving support.
i have a guard build i play that appears to be equal dps as a war but would require a dps meter to prove because it “seems” the same or equal the ele tho the damage is so much higher its obvious.
guard builds is sword/ focus and staff for might stacking and utility
build is 10/30/5/0/25
tough challenging build based on keeping your aegis for max damage output
with all bells and whistles fast auto attacking for 6k 6k and 3 × 4500
Shamless self-quote:
@zoran and thor-ele:
In 60 sec, you have 50 hits. With your nubers, every hit deals 10k on average.
50 × 10 / 60 = 8.33k DPS – ooops, warrior is already better.
But wait, there is more. 9 – 12k are crits. But you have just 33% critchanche. + 20% fury. + 5% discipline.
and you go down to ~6k DPS. Cute. With 25 Might and vuln, a warrior outdps you with axe autohits. I’m not very impressed.
Thor is not a bad build. It is – imho – the strongest PvE ele build. But it is not nearly as strong as you claim.
@Zoran: I play both Thor ele and DPS warrior, and I can say pretty confidently: warriors are better.
The ele can out-DPS them in certain situations, but they can only do so due to the fact that they get might stacks, fury, other party buffs and vulnerability applied on the target… Which is all due to the warriors, guardians and mesmer.
The Thor-ele’s DPS is completely carried by the rest of the team. Try running a CoF p1 with 4 thor ele’s and a mesmer and see how terrible your DPS is.
Not to mention, the build is so incredibly boring… Just spamming autoattack… I mean, In CoE I sort of like running it because I get to use Fiery Greatsword, and honestly, I’ll never get sick of seeing 2.8k hits per Fiery Rush, but outside of CoE, I never run that build. I’d rather run my D/D build where I do less DPS but I don’t die of boredom while running it.
“People wanting content where Berserker sucks should remember that it needs be so hard
that they will cry, not just a river, but a huge ocean.” – Wethospu
i play both, and theres no contest a dps meter isnt even required. ele 25/20/0/25/0 top dps by far in the game and it has as more grp healing than an altruistic guard. dont be a sad panda because you rolled a war cause a forum said its the best dps lol
Show me an elementalist lupicus solo without fgs in less than 7 minutes. Then i believe you.
And even if you could, warriors would still increase party’s damage output much more through banners and fgj than an elementalist ever could.
I’m sorry if your confused by the purpose of my post. My main is a warrior and I don’t think anyone can dispute how great an asset to a group we are with our high dps and banners. I’m merely trying to educate that 4 wars in a group is not beneficial. I’d never reccomend 4 hammer ele either.
Just educating that war dps is not best dps. In game as popular opinion believes. Like I stated in prior post anyone who plays both knows its fact.
Hammer ele auto attack is greater than hundred blades and it unfortunately has a cool down and breaks if you move. Auto attack on ele has no such restrictions
Just educating that war dps is not best dps. In game as popular opinion believes. Like I stated in prior post anyone who plays both knows its fact.
Hammer ele auto attack is greater than hundred blades and it unfortunately has a cool down and breaks if you move. Auto attack on ele has no such restrictions
You’re contradicting yourself in a sense.
Warrior on his own is the best stand alone DPS in the game.
Thor ele being carried by other warriors is the best DPS in the game, under certain conditions. That still doesn’t make Thor ele the best DPS in the game, since his DPS is being carried.
None of us are arguing that Thor eles don’t do great damage, or that taking one will slow down your run. We’re just saying that your claim of “erhmegurd, LH ele is the best DPS evarh!!!” is flawed and only conditional. And even when the conditions are met, the fact that they out-DPS warriors is debatable, because the difference is so small that bringing another warrior will probably be a safer bet. Especially because warriors have better survivability, utility, rez etc.
“People wanting content where Berserker sucks should remember that it needs be so hard
that they will cry, not just a river, but a huge ocean.” – Wethospu
I love this game because of its vast situational options and classes. I also prefer my war as it is my main. The game lets you be creative. I didn’t post here to say one class is better but to inform. Stacking the same classes together isn’t optimal ever.
Here’s some fun info. In cof path 2 first pull is 3 guys each with a flame thrower. On a guard with sword focus. Rush them alone to be sure they all 3 focus on you. Pop 5 on focus f1 to burn them then #3 on sword. You will effectively hit one for 7k dammage and reflect all 3 of their flame throwers back onto them depending on your dammage in traits they will either be dead or under 10 % health
Every class has a use in this game
Stacking the same classes together isn’t optimal ever.
Every class has a use in this game
Actually, stacking 2 or 3 warriors is pretty optimal imo, since they bring the best things you want in PvE: might, fury and vulnerability. Guardian and Mesmer just compliment the warrior with their reflects and other utility. They just make up where the warrior lacks.
“People wanting content where Berserker sucks should remember that it needs be so hard
that they will cry, not just a river, but a huge ocean.” – Wethospu
I’ve ran both ways being on war and being on my ele with 2war mes and guard. All I can say is the wars fall down less with my ele in grp and my ele just hits even harder. Unfortunately only in cof. Arah elite groups won’t let an ele in to speed kill lupicus.
I bet auto attack in that group would break 15k on third swing. At this point I’ve chosen to educate players, the more they know about other classes the more willing they will be to take them.
I do understand that the trinity of guard mes war groups exist because with other classes you don’t know what your getting. A staff fire ele buffing himself with might and hitting like 3k a pop is useless and make me cry when I’m playing my war and get one in my group
He could be hitting 4x harder healing with each hit adding vuln. And blinding every 3rd hit
How do you heal your party with each hit?
You don’t bring the ele to speed kill lupi because it’s a liability to your party. A warrior is much more flexible and has a lot more leeway to melee lupi than the ele has, and it deals roughly the same damage. Better even, because as the warrior you can dodge and do DPS at the same time using WW, whereas all the other classes lose damage while dodging. And seeing how lupi is a ‘dodge or die’ fight, you’re better off bringing warriors.
“People wanting content where Berserker sucks should remember that it needs be so hard
that they will cry, not just a river, but a huge ocean.” – Wethospu
Well properly traited hammer elementalist will always be welcome in my warriors groups because I don’t mid them out damaging means I’m glad for their heals. Maybe after all these posts some people won’t either.
In my opinion war dps is the standard to shoot for in all classes. I’ve found a guard build that’s close or equal and an ele build that surpasses it.
I’ll post again somewhere when I figure out how to make a rangers damage equal to or greater than a war.
You’re really preaching to the choir here…
We run an LH ele in our CoE runs standard, because the added DPS you get during Alpha fights and the hammer pumps some good damage on its own as well.
Not to mention, most of us run a DPS guardian as well, so you’re not that unique honestly.
I’d just like to know how your ele heals your party on each hit.. Because I’ve never seen that yet.
“People wanting content where Berserker sucks should remember that it needs be so hard
that they will cry, not just a river, but a huge ocean.” – Wethospu
You’re really preaching to the choir here…
We run an LH ele in our CoE runs standard, because the added DPS you get during Alpha fights and the hammer pumps some good damage on its own as well.
Not to mention, most of us run a DPS guardian as well, so you’re not that unique honestly.
I’d just like to know how your ele heals your party on each hit.. Because I’ve never seen that yet.
When I do COE, it’s 3 war/1 mes/1 guard or 4 war/1 guard or 5 war. How does LH ele go? considering replacing 1 war with LH ele as it (supposedly?) has higher single target dps? I specced my ele out for it but was missing a few things, the food and scholar runes (was running full ruby because I’m cheap) , and sigil also missing. Think I need to follow the build up to the minute detail to compete.
|-Swiftpaw Sharpclaw [DnT]-|
Again, what heals except soothing mist which should heal for 92.5 health per second and healing ripple that heals for 1552 but can’t be used with soothing mist with your current build?
Staff auto attack heal 450 per swing works thru hammer auto attack plus the 100 ish from soothing mist to group xtra 200 to self from signet. It may not sound like much but it can make or break some fights like fire fractal where warriors self healing often isn’t enough. In the 30+
Staff auto attack heal 450 per swing works thru hammer auto attack plus the 100 ish from soothing mist to group xtra 200 to self from signet. It may not sound like much but it can make or break some fights like fire fractal where warriors self healing often isn’t enough. In the 30+
I just tested this nonsense in-game and the results say it’s a nonsense and doesn’t work. You can’t heal with staff when you have hammer equipped, sorry. Plus, even if it had healed, it’s 395. I won’t comment part about fractals because I’d be probably infracted or yet again banned.