Guild Wars 2

I’m fairly sure this won’t end well, and I’ve been pondering whether I should ask; but I might as well at the risk of being buried under potential/probable hate for such a question.

I know there’s been some debate on it before, but where do we stand with Ele’s in speed-running for dungeon compositions?

I know the general gist is FGS 4 is broken to some people, and therefore it’s not exactly fair for them to be in speed-runs. (At least, that’s something I read)

Thoughts on whether Ele’s are fair game for hardcore speed-running? (Assuming they replace a class)

LH ele is still better than warriors for might, fury, and dps. Even without FGS my guild group would still run 1G1M1W2E or 1G1W3E (basically fill out the slots with ele when other buffs are covered, generally don’t run ranger because we can get almost 100% crit chance without spotter)

Problem is without FGS, eles simply don’t have any strong elites. My ele is a norn so I can use bear form, but that is still meh.

they are amazing even with just LH. they provide a lot of might and fury buffing with fire field support from a guardian. also they do good DPS.

also, LH allows them to do a lot of AOE blinds and glyph of storms can also be used in tough trash pulls (e.g. TA spiders, Leurent etc.)

Wukunlin.8461:

LH ele is still better than warriors for might, fury, and dps. Even without FGS my guild group would still run 1G1M1W2E or 1G1W3E (basically fill out the slots with ele when other buffs are covered, generally don’t run ranger because we can get almost 100% crit chance without spotter)

Problem is without FGS, eles simply don’t have any strong elites. My ele is a norn so I can use bear form, but that is still meh.

TBH if the ele stops with FGS we might add a theif in there just for the DPS increase since all the buffs would be covered. No math or any real life tests to confirm this but pretty sure a theif could speed up runs with some trash runs and just nice dps increase IDK tho.

Eles are fair game for speed records. Would you see them in speed runs without FGS? Nope.

Anyway, current meta for speed runs is more interesting this way. 3W/1M/1G is about as boring as you can get, I’d rather it not return to that. Class diversity is really lacking, and as far as things go it’s in a better spot than it ever has been.

Is it sad that two classes have to rely on overpowered ‘gimics’? Yep, but you can blame ANet for that.

well we can always do some tests on fully buffed thief vs ele vs war and pick the one with the highest, thief stealth for trash runs is really good in some dungeons though.

All the LOO posts wow. By the way I won’t be on tonight either, don’t wait up <3

</3 why u do dis

Once this exploit is fixed and exploiters are banned permanently we’ll get back to stacking warriors with reflections because it’s very spectacular and worthy of watching meta. We all want to roll our faces on the keyboard.

Without fgs, ele is just another necro in dungeons and the worst proffesion in other game types.

eles are fine for speed runs, but it is difficult to set path records with them since the full party has to stand still for 5 seconds to stack Might, and the more encounters per dungeon the more it slows you down.

This is the same reason why you have to be careful with SR on a thief, as sometimes the SR allows you to skip things you’d otherwise have to fight, like the spiders before Malrona on TA up, but other times it can slow you down as you have to stand still for a while to get the stealth.

That said, unless you’re trying to set a record, Shadow Refuge is going to make your runs far smoother in dungeons like Arah, TA, CM etc. One ele stacking Might can get a group to 25 stacks that has no other way to do so. So basically, they might not be the absolute fastest way to do things, but they make things easier and smoother.

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

eles are fine for speed runs, but it is difficult to set path records with them since the full party has to stand still for 5 seconds to stack Might, and the more encounters per dungeon the more it slows you down.

They can stack 9 party might without even standing still for a second.

Edit: Even 12, but thats a bit harder to pull off.

Use a mesmer to stealth and portal instead of waiting for SR.

Dub.1273:

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

eles are fine for speed runs, but it is difficult to set path records with them since the full party has to stand still for 5 seconds to stack Might, and the more encounters per dungeon the more it slows you down.

They can stack 9 party might without even standing still for a second.

Edit: Even 12, but thats a bit harder to pull off.

It’s a lot easier with swiftness and provided you’re actually standing on solid ground and Dragon Tooth doesn’t just disappear into the floor somewhere. At least that’s my wild stab in the dark at what you meant cause that chain takes about a second to do :/

S/F – DT, Flame Barrier, Phoenix, Magnetic Wave, Arcane Wave. Since all are ranged or instant casts you don’t even lose 0.1 seconds standing still.

Dub.1273:

S/F – DT, Flame Barrier, Phoenix, Magnetic Wave, Arcane Wave. Since all are ranged or instant casts you don’t even lose 0.1 seconds standing still.

Ele needs more traits like this.

You even have enough time to throw a comet as well

Edit: and soon, lava axe 2 ! Yay!

haviz.1340:

Dub.1273:

S/F – DT, Flame Barrier, Phoenix, Magnetic Wave, Arcane Wave. Since all are ranged or instant casts you don’t even lose 0.1 seconds standing still.

Ele needs more traits like this.

Whooops.

Dub.1273:

S/F – DT, Flame Barrier, Phoenix, Magnetic Wave, Arcane Wave. Since all are ranged or instant casts you don’t even lose 0.1 seconds standing still.

Sounds really practical.

Dub.1273:

S/F – DT, Flame Barrier, Phoenix, Magnetic Wave, Arcane Wave. Since all are ranged or instant casts you don’t even lose 0.1 seconds standing still.

what’s DT and why do you need flame barrier, I knew about everything else, #4 in fire then start stacking might.

i think he means dragon’s tooth, and by flame barrier he probably means ring of fire

Wukunlin.8461:

i think he means dragon’s tooth, and by flame barrier he probably means ring of fire

There is no ring of fire with S/F, but #4 in fire is a fire field, a really small fire field.

Bismuth.3165:

Wukunlin.8461:

i think he means dragon’s tooth, and by flame barrier he probably means ring of fire

There is no ring of fire with S/F, but #4 in fire is a fire field, a really small fire field.

It’s small but it lasts 2x as long as the dagger offhand field. I personally find it better for that reason.

Bismuth.3165:

Wukunlin.8461:

i think he means dragon’s tooth, and by flame barrier he probably means ring of fire

There is no ring of fire with S/F, but #4 in fire is a fire field, a really small fire field.

oh oops, I thought I saw S/D /facepalm

I personally prefer OH Dagger. The fire field does infinitely more damage and the bigger size is easier for teammates to blast in. That and throwing in Fire Grab when stacking might on foes, RTL for skipping and Updraft for on demand swiftness is something I would have a lot of trouble parting with. Oh and that glorious Cleansing Wave to get rid of 2 hours worth of poison in TA You could stack the same amount of Might but you’d have to stop for Earthquake, took me forever to stop interrupting that slow kitten attack <_<

Might stacking with S/F is both, pre and in combat quicker than with S/D. Also the fire field lasts a respectable extra time (you’ll actually blast it at least once with LH) and you got swirling winds/magnetic wave/obsidian flesh. Out of combat you obviously want to switch to X/D, though.

The focus is also better at cleansing. I do not know why anyone would want to take OH dagger in PvE fights.

Zelyhn.8069:

The focus is also better at cleansing. I do not know why anyone would want to take OH dagger in PvE fights.

Ring of Fire, Fire Grab and pretending that point blank RtL and Churning Earth adds huge deeps ;D

Flamewall is also better at applying burning than ring of fire since the rim of the ring often does not land on top of the boss.

Well~ dagger has an average weapon strength of 952.5 exotic, 1000 ascended while focus is 857.5 exotic and 900 ascended. So with x/D you get an extra 50 weapon strength compared x/F which is I think about 5% more damage for when you’re not holding a LH/FGS.

Yeah but this increased damage is only applicable to the OH skills
Not LH or FGS

Zelyhn.8069:

Yeah but this increased damage is only applicable to the OH skills
Not LH or FGS

^

How is Focus better at cleansing? You’ve got a selfish x3 condi cleanse (on an attunement damage builds will rarely go into) vs an AoE cleanse + burst heal on Dagger (plus not having to switch out of water), granted I could count the times I’ve used Focus on one hand since its a completely defensive weapon, so I might be missing something there.
Seriously just look at the DPS difference between Flamewall and Ring of Fire (assuming accurate tooltip), that alone is better than 2 extra seconds for the slowpokes to get their blasts off
Also Churning Earth is terrible deeps, dat cast time sheesh.
So I suppose if you’re boon spamming as opposed to camping in water on a Hammer then Focus would be better, especially in PuGs where you have to sacrifice DPS for a bit of sustain, but otherwise I just don’t see the appeal :/

Well actually I don’t know, I can’t think about dedicated LH gameplay, it makes me want to vomit.

Zelyhn.8069:

Well actually I don’t know, I can’t think about dedicated LH gameplay, it makes me want to vomit.

+1

Hey, LH gameplay is very dynamic.
*7*111111111111111*F*111111111111111*7*111111111111111*F*111111111111111

No seriously; it isn’t that bad. It’s more like:
F1243F44F2587111111111111111^F1243F445F258f111111111111111

Warrior in comparison is more like:
11111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111F1

Since most players aren’t able to do a proper rotation.

Zomg Dub you don’t throw arcane spells when you are in LH ?? That’s where all the dynamism is from!

It’s times like this when a 232411111111111111112321111111111423211111111 warrior rotaton actually feels … intelligent.

cant beat necro 785f1f111111141111f1f1111111151111111f1f111111411111

Dolan.3071:

Also Churning Earth is terrible deeps, dat cast time sheesh

Do people actually cast churning earth and wait for the whole cast time? You should start casting it then swap to air and fire off 2&3 then swap to water and cast 4 all while still churning meanwhile youre activating fury on swap and get higher crit chance which should allow you to pop back into air for more pewpew.(assuming standard 30/30/0/0/10 dps build)

Solo.9027:

Dolan.3071:

Also Churning Earth is terrible deeps, dat cast time sheesh

Do people actually cast churning earth and wait for the whole cast time? You should start casting it then swap to air and fire off 2&3 then swap to water and cast 4 all while still churning meanwhile youre activating fury on swap and get higher crit chance which should allow you to pop back into air for more pewpew.(assuming standard 30/30/0/0/10 dps build)

That doesn’t change the face that churning earth isn’t worth casting unless you’re in a fire field. And even then you’d better go focus.

It’s true LH is faceroll easy, but what can I say I’m a lazy player and if mashing 1 gives me the best damage, then I shall mash 1 till the cows come home. As opposed to putting in infinitely more effort for less damage, why?
The same goes for Warrior, I can see the benefit in doing a Greatsword rotation for solo play/PuGs where maintaining Might stacks is an issue, but outside of that I see Warhorn as a better option with the Blast Finisher and on the demand swiftness to get your party straight into skipping the next set of mobs.

Also Solo I actually never knew you could do that, granted I haven’t used Churning Earth since my PvP days :P
And I must insist that an Ele build with points in Arcana is not a ‘dps build’.

10 points in arcana for vigor might be a good idea in pug groups where fights get dragged way long

I mainly run 10 in arcana instead of water for arcane cooldowns and free fury because I dont really do group content much anymore. People who can regularly run conjures and focus just seem lucky to be carried imo, must be nice though.

Dolan.3071:

And I must insist that an Ele build with points in Arcana is not a ‘dps build’.

It is good to live in the fiery rush lalaland but if you try to do FOTM 48+ without the perma vigor from 10 in arcana (which really sucks on an ele like there’s no tomorrow. You’re not playing a guardian. And even guardians are still very shy of not putting at least 5 in honor to get that vigor.) you’ll quickly learn to shut it and deal with being a “slightly less, but still dps build” over the current faceroll of the current incredibly badly designed dungeons.

Whatever you insist we’re all free to fully ignore.

My full Cleric’s shout heal Warrior is still a DPS build because I use Greatsword. I take it in PuGs because their damage is bad and I need survivability.
Jokes aside there is a time and a place, not that I have much experience at soloing Lupi, but if I were to try on an Ele, Focus and 10 in Arcana would be the first thing I grab hold of.
Also I like how being in an organised team in which you’re able to spec fully into DPS means ‘getting carried’.

There aren’t many professions that actually spec 100% DPS, 0% utility. Warriors and Thieves do, Guardians/Mesmers don’t. Others tend to vary depending on guild/player. Either way, it’s a mistake to say something isn’t a DPS build just because it isn’t totally optimized for only DPS.

As for getting carried, idk. People tend to define ‘getting carried’ differently, so it’d be nice if people clarified when they make a claim like that.

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

As for getting carried, idk. People tend to define ‘getting carried’ differently, so it’d be nice if people clarified when they make a claim like that.

I would say, (not the player, because it doesn’t mean the player can’t play well with a different build), a build is carried if it can’t stand on its own in any sort of group in the harder content. If you can’t join a fractal 48 or an arah pug without being flattened you’re using a carried build. Certainly, you ain’t going to melee lupi on LH with no vigor in a low dps group.

Now, I’ve done lupi in melee in pugs that ranged him etc decently well on the standard Warrior, Guardian (with 10~ points in honor, I wouldn’t run the no vigor build I used in LOD in a pug.), Mesmer builds. The builds used for these three classes stand well on their own, and do not need a specific group set up to shine. A warrior might swap a couple utilities sometimes to feel safer, personally I’ve always liked endure pain for things like the Ascalon fractal depending on my confidence in the group while mowing down the trash, or for killing grubs in the grawl one, or use something like Balanced Stance or/and! Dolyak signet to escape bubbles in pugs since you will get chain bubbled at times and can’t really do it the speedclear or solo way of using zero stability. But they don’t have to retrait, dramatically change their playstyle or gear to be effective. I actually died less in pugs against things like Lupi than some of the speedrun groups I’ve had because of the fact that I have balanced stance, sword offhand etc in pugs, and I didn’t in these speedkill groups when something happens to make lupi chain bubble us.

Guanglai’s engineer build is also dramatically effective in any sort of group, any sort of pug, it just works, probably even easier to handle than the three classes I mentioned but that’s just my opinion. I love playing engineer in pugs actually. I think it’s the most effective build/class to bring in mediocre pugs because of the versatility, but some might prefer guardian because of the slightly higher amount of group support.

The LH ele build, the full LH one, is truly a thing of carry. You can make it work in some dungeon pugs like AC and maybe even dungeons like TA depending on the groups but you certainly shouldn’t take that in an arah or fractal pug unless you want to embarrass yourself. There is no denying that this thing is a thing of carry. I’ve had successful pug runs in the easier dungeons with the full LH build used in guilds like LOD but I would never take that to some of the harsher dungeons.

So far, while I do agree that mes/guard spec a little more in utility, they don’t lose as much as ele though in terms of damage output. The builds used in speedclear groups are also fine in the worst pugs. This isn’t the case of ele. You just don’t play that build in the fun content outside of a particular group set up. It doesn’t work. And anything other than that build just doesn’t compare in terms of damage output. And its best damage output won’t even really shine unless you have that group set up with the guardian casting fire fields anyway. The typical warrior build can just stand on its own.

If you’re bringing the LH build in pugs, even in easy dungeons like AC where you can play that it’s more like self gratification than anything else, because you won’t really have an optimal damage output. X/focus will on the other hand make some things smoother by making sure that you have some absorb of your own if the rest of your group is too dumb to use absorb/reflect etc. It’s also great in these groups that keep using that dumb LoS spot for kholer, not moving away from him when he does the spin inside that LoS spot, you can activate earth 5 and also rez people while invuln.

Nikaido.3457:

A warrior might swap a couple utilities sometimes to feel safer, personally I’ve always liked endure pain for things like the Ascalon fractal depending on my confidence in the group while mowing down the trash, or for killing grubs in the grawl one, or use something like Balanced Stance or/and! Dolyak signet to escape bubbles in pugs since you will get chain bubbled at times and can’t really do it the speedclear or solo way of using zero stability. But they don’t have to retrait, dramatically change their playstyle or gear to be effective. I actually died less in pugs against things like Lupi than some of the speedrun groups I’ve had because of the fact that I have balanced stance, sword offhand etc in pugs, and I didn’t in these speedkill groups when something happens to make lupi chain bubble us.

You can even use whirlwind attack to get out of the bubble.

haviz.1340:

You can even use whirlwind attack to get out of the bubble.

Nice, I didn’t know about that. Good to know. Although in the event of a full chain bubble I’d probably still keep balanced stance.

Whirlwind getting you out of bubbles though sounds awfully similar to the bug that used to make dodge rolls get you out on warrior. Sounds like something that would get nerfed if made popular. Or maybe not. Because there’s no Robert Hrouda reading what we do in dungeons these days.

Nikaido.3457:

Nice, I didn’t know about that. Good to know. Although in the event of a full chain bubble I’d probably still keep balanced stance.

Whirlwind getting you out of bubbles though sounds awfully similar to the bug that used to make dodge rolls get you out on warrior. Sounds like something that would get nerfed if made popular. Or maybe not. Because there’s no Robert Hrouda reading what we do in dungeons these days.

Not exactly, you have to use it before the bubble spawns in direction opposite to lupi. He can’t spawn the bubble outside of his range. Same thing with teleports – if you teleport but still within his range he’ll immediately change the location of the bubble. But if you teleport outside his range you won’t get trapped.

As for the 10 arcana points for elems, I think any non-speedrun build requires them for dps itself: you need the first 5 points for 70% uptime in fury and then the elemental attunement do a very good job a both increasing group dps and providing support. Take a look at it: 1 stack permanent stack of might is usually more than a 1% dps increase, so if you can buff all your allies as you swap to fire that is a 5% total increased damage for the group. It is also nice to have the option to take vigor, although not usually necessary.

So the first 10 points in arcana are for dps.
However, anything past that point is completely useless.

But larger staff AoE’s?!?