Guild Wars 2

Anyone who thinks that they can’t play a sub level 20 fractal with a four man squad is not an elitist, they are a bad. I feel sorry for your friend, but my gut instinct is that this is just bad luck with one or two idiot groups. My personal experience is that elitism is less of a problem in fractals now than it was in dungeons before HoT. I have an AP level that far excedes my skill level, so I usually notice it when other people kick, and the only time I regularly see people get kicked is when they are insta-downed by agony.

Cormac.3871:

Anyone who thinks that they can’t play a sub level 20 fractal with a four man squad is not an elitist, they are a bad. I feel sorry for your friend, but my gut instinct is that this is just bad luck with one or two idiot groups. My personal experience is that elitism is less of a problem in fractals now than it was in dungeons before HoT. I have an AP level that far excedes my skill level, so I usually notice it when other people kick, and the only time I regularly see people get kicked is when they are insta-downed by agony.

Yep. You can easily 2-3 man sub 20 fracs. Back when I had to farm the “daily recommended” fractals to get the pages for the ad infinitum collection, I frequently did this, if I e.g did them in some really off hours when there’s wasn’t a lot off ppl online.

I couldn’t agree more with this. Achievement points aren’t always a sign you’re a good player. You can go out and farm APs from several sources that are not from actually playing the game, for example fashion achievement points, and other collections that require little effort. This and time played (dailies and so on) can rack up a good number of APs without actually ever ‘playing’ core parts of the game, or at least without ever dong fractals! I see many people in fractals with 10k+ APs and some are learners, some have zero clue what to do. The amount of achievement points does not equate to how well you play. Its utter nonsense and it certainly sickens me when you’ve been the one to form the party, especially when he advertises as “all welcome”. These people have not been brought up to understand that they are simply being rude and it is unacceptable.

You have to be an achievement point hunter to be ‘accepted’ to do a level 13 fractal? Idiotic. I’m having similar issues with raiding. Why should I spend 100s of gold kitting out a character just to try out a raid?

Celine.6857:

You have to be an achievement point hunter to be ‘accepted’ to do a level 13 fractal? Idiotic. I’m having similar issues with raiding. Why should I spend 100s of gold kitting out a character just to try out a raid?

Because spending the gold makes you build objectively better (and othets have already spent the gold) and when deciding between two people of unknown skill you take the one with the objectively better build.

Celine.6857:

You have to be an achievement point hunter to be ‘accepted’ to do a level 13 fractal? Idiotic. I’m having similar issues with raiding. Why should I spend 100s of gold kitting out a character just to try out a raid?

Always smart comparing apples and oranges.

Hints for you:
1. Read lfgs properly
2. Don’t join experienced groups if you have no clue a.k.a. you are new to the raid
3. Join training runs or
4. Make up your own lfg and search for like minded people

This will result in you being able to try out raids. Meanwhile, to have success in raids will be a completely different thing at start. I hope you differentiate here! Experienced players have practiced hours to beat the encounters and it’s obvious and just fair that they won’t carry you through it (for nothing). You have to spent the time by yourself.
(And this is the problem many players are facing. They don’t want to make an effort, fail and succeed with repeat but this is how it’s working.)

I cannot share this experience … I am joining t2 meta parties with my alt account (600ap) and I never got kicked …

But my personal opinion to this case is: if people are searching for something specific … A profession or build / gear / ap whatever … Respect those wishes and join if you fulfill their requirements … Don’t QQ if you get kicked if you are joining with something else

I am also kicking people when they join with classes we don’t search for …
And I guess there are also people who still think ap are a exp indicator …

idk if its elitism. I just think a good chunk of the player base has been around so long they have forgot what its like to be new.
I see a lot of impatience
No teaching, its like a sprint to the finish.
I play a rev and I could care less about how long a fractal takes. I just want everyone to be included and feel like they matter. So I hang back, guide new players, or run back, speed boost the stragglers and then go in as a group.

I just don’t feel that this old community realizes how many new players have been brought in with HoT.
its either that
Or there just in auto mode. And have little to no awareness. Its a means to an end to get what they need and your just a number. Not exactly elitism just selfishnessISM (yes I just made a stupid word up)

Ryou.2398:

Yobculture.5786:

People who want 5k+ AP for level 13 fractal are most likely mentally incapacitated.

On the other hand, in my opinion it’s not unreasonable to add a filter to your LFG if it’s content like raids (if you meet your own requirements) or T4 fractals. Don’t know about you guys but I personally hate having to carry people when I want to just do something quickly so I can get on with the rest of what I want to do for the day.

And thats fine but dont kick people just because you dont want to explain it, how else will people learn if no one tells them? The problem is you just kick people for one mistake it is rude and a form of elitism. If you dont want to teach anyone or carry anyone your just going to have to specify each time, thats no ones responsibility but your own:)

Another thing that royally ticks me off is when people make groups and everyone leaves because they want drop the pug people to invite thier friends who showed up late to the party, your wasting other peoples time, no just no.

WTF are you talking about?

If you’re doing a T4 fractal and you have no idea what you’re supposed to do, then you should not place the burden on me to carry you. That is what I’m saying. Anything below that I don’t really care – T3/2 (regarding 41-60) are a royal pain in the butt, so I don’t even do those anyway, and T1 is able to be done with less than 5, so it matters not to me how experienced you are since it’s not really that difficult as an Elementalist to solo some of the bosses.

Raizen.7981:

I’ve had this week 2 players in a level 4 fractal, one was 31,7k ap and the other one a bit over 32k. They had no clue what to do, constantly dying on the laser staircase, so I asked them if they bought the accounts. Each one states that he was over 4k game hours, but never tried fractals, and were doing for the first time to squeeze the only APs they had left.

Morale of the story: AP and game time DO NOT kittenING MATTER, unless proven otherwise.

http://grammar-monster.com/easily_confused/moral_morale.htm

I can understand AP requirements for t4 fractals, but this is just idiotic

So many people don’t know what a trend/correlation is, it’s hilarious.

“A Positive correlation is a relationship between two variables in which both variables move in tandem. A positive correlation exists when as one variable decreases, the other variable also decreases and vice versa.”

Read through what I say carefully without skipping stuff out due to your rage tinted glasses:

In our case people who discriminate based on achievement points (or li’s, whatever same principle) have identified a positive correlation up to a certain threshold (imo around 3-5k) between the achievement points of a player and their technical ability within the game.

Let’s think of a common, truly special argument that tilts me further than the tower of pisa:

Argument 1:

‘But just last week I saw a guy with 32kAP and 40kAP and they were rubbish at t4 fracs’

- Firstly these are known as outliers and their existence does not prove that the correlation does not exist. Secondly as I already mentioned most people agree that the positive correlation ends at a certain threshold (imo 3-5k). I know that most people agree because otherwise you would see lfg’s asking for 30k+ AP which you do not.

Let me put it this way; I say that a trend I observed is that there is a positive correlation between the ability of people to play basketball and their respective height up to a threshold of 6ft5 (totally made up number, its an example). You then say “no you are wrong idiot, I played with a 6ft10 guy and he was awful!” Can you see how stupid you sound?

Outliers can also be on the other side of the correlation, i.e highly skilled players who have low AP. Again, stating that you know someone or are someone like this does not mean the trend does not exist.

I know people with low AP can be skilled and I know people with higher AP can be less skilled. But I have observed over my playtime that it is more likely that the player with low AP is worse than the player with high AP.

More likely

The only valid argument to this is if you have observed over your playtime that this positive correlation does not exist. In that case we simply disagree on our observations and nothing either one of us say to the other will change that. It just so happens that the majority of the player base agrees with me not you and hence why you whine here on the forums.

That is all.

The Zealous Templar.3861:

…

Well said. Indeed, the majority agrees that a certain amount of AP is a good indication on what one can expect from said player. The usual difference between 1k AP players and a 5k AP player is huge. Completely dismissing any oberservation or even rule because of a few exceptions is just silly.

In any case, people usually go into pugs with the goal to finish any type of content quickly, easily and most of all smoothly. They will always pick the safer choice in pug players. Following a well documented meta in both classes as well as strategies used is another thing people always complain about. Yet, nobody can deny it’s effectiveness.

Have gotten kicked from some AC run due to having less AP than some other tempest that joined. They refused to take a third tempest (which one of us would have been in this case) instead of the daredevil they were looking for.
Doesn’t even matter if I have ten times as much dungeon experience and time on my class. Doesn’t matter if neither class is really needed and AC is kitten easy. It was still a smart choice on their part. Just not too nice of them.

The people publishing AP requirements are advertising how bad they are themselves, I wouldn’t be too bummed about getting kicked by people like that. Find or make some friends to run dailies and avoid taking more than 2 pugs in any run.

As a side-note I have noticed over my time playing that the best players from personal experience are normally between 5k and 18k (at a stretch) AP. Anything above that tends to be AP hunters… and anything below that is a potential liability for me. 4k AP is okay but I’ve noticed maybe too many people still screwing up basic tactics at that AP tier.

Emerik.7846:

idk if its elitism. I just think a good chunk of the player base has been around so long they have forgot what its like to be new.
I see a lot of impatience
No teaching, its like a sprint to the finish.
I play a rev and I could care less about how long a fractal takes. I just want everyone to be included and feel like they matter. So I hang back, guide new players, or run back, speed boost the stragglers and then go in as a group.

I just don’t feel that this old community realizes how many new players have been brought in with HoT.
its either that
Or there just in auto mode. And have little to no awareness. Its a means to an end to get what they need and your just a number. Not exactly elitism just selfishnessISM (yes I just made a stupid word up)

Veterans just want to get things done fast and move on to the next event. New players slow the process down.

doddbox.8153:

The people publishing AP requirements are advertising how bad they are themselves, I wouldn’t be too bummed about getting kicked by people like that. Find or make some friends to run dailies and avoid taking more than 2 pugs in any run.

How exactly are people bad if they simply dislike to play with certain people?
How am I bad if I want people that I know will most likely know the content by heart. How am I bad if I don’t feel like explaining stuff to new players?

More people need to apply superior runes of altruism to their daily attire, and arm themselves with superior sigils of generosity and benevolence.

Stop using AP as a method to determine one’s skill already. Back when I had 3k AP I was already trying to solo some of the fractals, last night we pugged last spot for T4 and got a person with 21k AP who had absolutely zero idea what to do in the Snowblind fractal, AP judgement is not a reliable method unless the person has like less or equal to at least 1,5k and even in this case it’s not a guarantee that the person isn’t someone who knows their stuff.

winterchillz.2564:

Stop using AP as a method to determine one’s skill already. Back when I had 3k AP I was already trying to solo some of the fractals, last night we pugged last spot for T4 and got a person with 21k AP who had absolutely zero idea what to do in the Snowblind fractal, AP judgement is not a reliable method unless the person has like less or equal to at least 1,5k and even in this case it’s not a guarantee that the person isn’t someone who knows their stuff.

And stop trying to control what other people are doing?? I mean, I find using AP stupid just like you and I would never put it in a LFG description, but I doesn’t mean that I should be a pain in the kitten to everybody that want to use the AP. It’s not a good system, but it can help clear a good portion of the bad player and that’s what the people using it are looking for. They don’t give a crap about cutting very good player with it. All they care is to make sure a good portion of less experienced players won’t join their group.

They can use the AP if they want, just like you can dislike it if you want. But don’t tell them to stop doing it.

Thaddeus.4891:

winterchillz.2564:

Stop using AP as a method to determine one’s skill already. Back when I had 3k AP I was already trying to solo some of the fractals, last night we pugged last spot for T4 and got a person with 21k AP who had absolutely zero idea what to do in the Snowblind fractal, AP judgement is not a reliable method unless the person has like less or equal to at least 1,5k and even in this case it’s not a guarantee that the person isn’t someone who knows their stuff.

And stop trying to control what other people are doing?? I mean, I find using AP stupid just like you and I would never put it in a LFG description, but I doesn’t mean that I should be a pain in the kitten to everybody that want to use the AP. It’s not a good system, but it can help clear a good portion of the bad player and that’s what the people using it are looking for. They don’t give a crap about cutting very good player with it. All they care is to make sure a good portion of less experienced players won’t join their group.

They can use the AP if they want, just like you can dislike it if you want. But don’t tell them to stop doing it.

Overreact much? Sorry I just shared my personal opinion phased in a way that sounds as if I try to “control” how people put up their LFGs. Frankly, I couldn’t care less how and why they do.

Harper.4173:

doddbox.8153:

The people publishing AP requirements are advertising how bad they are themselves, I wouldn’t be too bummed about getting kicked by people like that. Find or make some friends to run dailies and avoid taking more than 2 pugs in any run.

How exactly are people bad if they simply dislike to play with certain people?
How am I bad if I want people that I know will most likely know the content by heart. How am I bad if I don’t feel like explaining stuff to new players?

You’re bad for trusting that AP correlates with any part of what you just said, to which it doesn’t. (Also helps to read the post so I can avoid future repeat answers)

AP is not good but is there any other (better) kind of Selection?
The most people i know dont like kicking people, so its sometimes hard when you try to carry a total noob in a hard t4 frac.
I dont even search for AP but i understand when people want some kind of minimum from people they start with.

HenryChinaski.4732:

AP is not good but is there any other (better) kind of Selection?
The most people i know dont like kicking people, so its sometimes hard when you try to carry a total noob in a hard t4 frac.
I dont even search for AP but i understand when people want some kind of minimum from people they start with.

Pinging gear and traits is a valid method, it tells you if they actually care about meta compositions and efficiency. Checking how much they have roleplayed achievement points doesn’t tell you how experienced they are in a fractal.

That work if you want metabuilds, but most people (especially those who join in lfg grps) playing something else and thats totally ok if they know what they do. You normaly see it after a few minutes of the run. Or you let them explain what they play etc. but it will need a few minutes too
AP you see when smby join grp. And also when its not perfect ist not useless, 1k people with 1k AP and 1k people with 10k AP, there are more exp players in group 2.

rfdarko.4639:

Jayden Ennok.3687:

Did you even read the OP?

yep. A simple “All welcome” doesn’t always register with people, especially if they are in a hurry to find a group and just wanna grab the first lfg that pops up. Specifically putting “newbies” or “first timers” or something like that in the description better deter players who kick for low AP. Adding hearts or smilelies help as well. The fluffier the description the better. I’ve recently been doing fractals with a friend who has ~1k AP and this is the best filter method we’ve found so far.

I see, I’ve always considered “all welcome” as the univeral “noobs welcome” lfg so to me, if someone exp joins and feels like kicking the noobs, I’ll kick him instead. All welcome might not register with some that well, but just as I want new players to be able to read, I want that from exp players too.

Dinosaurs.8674:

Jayden Ennok.3687:

Dinosaurs.8674:

I have never seen someone kicked from a scale that low ever, even for going afk lol. Why even bother? You could carry them through the scale in the time it would take to put the group in LFG and wait for a new party member. Considering you need 3 people to kick and the rest of the group likely was not partied beforehand, we either aren’t getting the whole story or a group of people was intentionally griefing him.

There is no issue with elitism in fotm.

3 kicks in a row seem excessive but from time to time I see lfgs like “lvl 10 meta zerkers xAP+”, not really surprising if some people get kicked.

Not saying these all aren’t real but my friends occasionally put up stuff like that as a joke…and i have to change the party description after 5 minutes because no one is joining lol

Well if you make a fun lfg that is somewhat normal in its expectations (many have 10k at and meta zerker is a normal requirement too, then people just assume you are serious. Spice it up, I usually use “full legendary elitist 50k ap required to carry us”. Amusing how many take this seriously too.

doddbox.8153:

HenryChinaski.4732:

AP is not good but is there any other (better) kind of Selection?
The most people i know dont like kicking people, so its sometimes hard when you try to carry a total noob in a hard t4 frac.
I dont even search for AP but i understand when people want some kind of minimum from people they start with.

Pinging gear and traits is a valid method, it tells you if they actually care about meta compositions and efficiency. Checking how much they have roleplayed achievement points doesn’t tell you how experienced they are in a fractal.

AP check is still easier to use, and faster too.

Emerik.7846:

idk if its elitism. I just think a good chunk of the player base has been around so long they have forgot what its like to be new.
I see a lot of impatience
No teaching, its like a sprint to the finish.
I play a rev and I could care less about how long a fractal takes. I just want everyone to be included and feel like they matter. So I hang back, guide new players, or run back, speed boost the stragglers and then go in as a group.

I just don’t feel that this old community realizes how many new players have been brought in with HoT.
its either that
Or there just in auto mode. And have little to no awareness. Its a means to an end to get what they need and your just a number. Not exactly elitism just selfishnessISM (yes I just made a stupid word up)

I think you yourself have either never known or forgotten what being a new player in an already established game means. Right now as a new player you have a phlentora of information/tutorials/guides/friends/guildies at your disposal to help you quickly progress. The problem is most new players wont even look at any of these sources ( which is fine) yet they expect to join veterans that are looking for a quick clear. I personally joined a fun guild, read some guides played with friends and cleared dungeons for leveling experience and I started fractals on a lv 60/70 elementalist. At 800 AP I was running Arah just fine. However I started joining meta groups only as I got more experienced and naturally I gained more AP.

I will help new players/guildies/friends out when I feel like it but at certain times I simply don’t feel like helping a newbie out. Thats not elitism, I simply believe progression as a player depends on the individual, it is not limited by what some call elitism.

DutchRiders.2871:

I think you yourself have either never known or forgotten what being a new player in an already established game means. Right now as a new player you have a phlentora of information/tutorials/guides/friends/guildies at your disposal to help you quickly progress. The problem is most new players wont even look at any of these sources ( which is fine) yet they expect to join veterans that are looking for a quick clear. I personally joined a fun guild, read some guides played with friends and cleared dungeons for leveling experience and I started fractals on a lv 60/70 elementalist. At 800 AP I was running Arah just fine. However I started joining meta groups only as I got more experienced and naturally I gained more AP.

I will help new players/guildies/friends out when I feel like it but at certain times I simply don’t feel like helping a newbie out. Thats not elitism, I simply believe progression as a player depends on the individual, it is not limited by what some call elitism.

+ one million to this. Absolutely agreed on every point. When I started seriously playing GW2, it was about a year into the game and I took advantage of every guide out there. Yes, it was very time consuming, but I didn’t cause anyone a headache by underpreparing. If I have taken my time and learnt all the stuff beforehand, why couldn’t others?
Now obviously, if you open up your own lfg saying “everyone welcome” or something similar, it’s perfectly fine. But if a total newbie joins my lfg where I specifically ask for experienced people with meta builds, I won’t hesitate to kick that person. Being a new guy in a game is nothing to be ashamed of, but trying to leech others against their will and attempting to circumvent lfg requirements is just wrong and those people deserve to be kicked.

> 2016
> Discussions about whether or not AP indicates skill

Also obligatory “hey guyzzz I soloed Arah on my necromancer without armor when I had 60ap so every new player must be the same!!!!1111!!one”

During wintersday i posted on lfg that every player that joins must present me a sock. Nobody presented a sock so i kicked everyone.

So Anet, you know how everything you’ve done in pve up to this point has been to make players want to play with each other and have a nice social time? Raids have brought a community of elitism and pretension that is the opposite of that. As someone who’s very well geared and has pumped a lot of time into all game modes, even I found it very hard to get a foothold in teaching runs for VG (a fairly easy boss) or even runs that don’t require 20+ insights and multiclassing.

The lfr tool has improved a bit now that people don’t have to list willy nilly in open world but the wait times to get a party together are usually longer than the actual runs last when inflexible primadonnas drop out if a single thing is different than their favorite way of doing it. The bosses are pretty fun but frankly they’re not fun enough to justify hours drained just trying to get and maintain a group.

I’m expecting a lot of “get good scrublord” and “you are trash and that’s why no one wants to play with you” comments but if anything I think it highlights how nasty and pretentious the raid community has rapidly become.

And before anyone suggests it, I already joined a raid exclusive guild- gear and insights requirements and all. It’s still a trial to get a group together, waste expensive utility/food, and get little to nothing out of it but people being annoyed with each other.

tldr pugging raids is like pulling teeth and that annoying (and hilarious) 20K AP+ ALL META WARRIOR ZERK PING GEAR elitism has become uncomfortably normal instead of the joke it has always been in gw2 pve

Create your own group/squad then. People can enforce whatever requirements they wish in groups/squads that they create.

Honestly, I’m not seeing as many complaints about exclusion and “elitism” over raids as I did over dungeons back before.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Honestly, I’m not seeing as many complaints about exclusion and “elitism” over raids as I did over dungeons back before.

I think it was louder than over dungeons and now people have given up.

I wouldn’t say Raids brought a community of elitism. Really, if you’ve been here since launch, elitism has always been present (CoF/AC speed runs, Arah near-clears then 3-group kicks for sell, Aetherpath runs, Aetherblade Retreat / Molten Facility lfg requirements, some high-level fractal groups, Twisted Marionette fight, etc…). It’s just a matter of people. Really, there are five types:

1) The true elitists; those who want the absolute best of everybody and won’t take “almost” as acceptable. Really a jack-hat with an itchy kick-finger.

2) The experienced in the encounter who want to get it done to move on, and don’t want to spend 4+ hours teaching people who probably don’t know how to dodge.

3) The experienced in the encounter who are patient and willing to teach others. The true heroes.

4) Those who are new to the encounter, but can learn quickly and are trying (brings food, perhaps has voicechat handy, etc…)

5)Those who are geared in casually acquired mix’n’matched gear and tend to have a tough time moving while activating skills at the same time.

Disclaimer: there are people who fall between these points, but these represent the staples.

Many people mistake the 2nd group of people for elitist, but it is not until you experience situations in their shoes that you realize they are just like you or me, but had many progress-less run-ins with the 5th group in the past — which leads to security checks to help better filter out 5’s or even 4’s. Until you are at the experience level of 2 or 3, join/create groups composed of 3 or 4 first.

If you yourself are a 5, don’t stress it. Raids are just probably not your element. But if you can find a bunch of 3’s or 4’s, then feel free to practice with them.

Avoid 1’s at all cost. Even if you are a 2, they are rarely worth the trouble.

The way to solve that problem is to find a laid back guild that doesn’t freak out when things go sour.

My guild does training raids. Find one that does that and you are golden. We don’t require ascended but we do ask that you use the metabattle raid setup for your profession.

I’m between a 2-3. I also don’t want to waste three hours, especially when failing a raid leaves you with literally nothing (and success is pretty scanty in vg/gors). What i’m seeing are straight up 1s with a density that I never saw even back in dungeon elitist days.
The other thing is that the communities doing dungeon runs back then also found those hardcore dungeon runners a bit of a joke since most of them were copying speedrunners reaching for record times without actually understanding the point, and consequently making those runs 10x longer with gear checks and kicking imperfects for 30min before actually running pretty easy content.

I am also between a two and three but I refuse to pug because of the fives and sixes. I have an established group of threes and we routinely teach fours that then become 3.5s.

Sixes are those that refuse to change gear, builds, or even food and, often like fives, try to sneak in and get carried for free rather than pay for it like many do. Not that I support paying for it over learning the content and improving your abilities, but it is a thing.

I have experienced the entire range between two of my guilds. I think a lot of the unfortunates are those just wanting achievements, masteries, content, or gear that is exclusive to raids.

eyestrain.3056:

I’m between a 2-3. I also don’t want to waste three hours, especially when failing a raid leaves you with literally nothing (and success is pretty scanty in vg/gors). What i’m seeing are straight up 1s with a density that I never saw even back in dungeon elitist days.
The other thing is that the communities doing dungeon runs back then also found those hardcore dungeon runners a bit of a joke since most of them were copying speedrunners reaching for record times without actually understanding the point, and consequently making those runs 10x longer with gear checks and kicking imperfects for 30min before actually running pretty easy content.

To anyone who complains about pug raid requirements, the solution is always the same: start your own group with whatever requirements you want.

I don’t think you appreciate pug raid requirements until you actually lead a group. You organize the voice communication. You organize the class composition. You organize the roles. You’re not only concerned with your own time, but the time of nine other people.

And you get people who don’t know what they’re doing. Wrong gear. Can’t dodge. Lag. First time. Etc.

Well, I’m in a pug group. I have no long term interaction with any of these people. So I’m going to try to get it done as quickly as possible for everyone.

There’s a big difference in the consequence of failure between a raid and a dungeon. A bad group may take an extra 5 or 10 minutes on a dungeon. A bad raid group won’t beat the boss and will waste hours in the process.

To go in another direction, think of it as a market for raid groups. As a raid leader, there’s a huge pool of players to choose from. On busy days, I can set the requirements very high because there’s a lot of demand for groups. On slow days, I temper my requirements. If groups set high requirements its because they can actually get players that meet them.

So, form your own group. Be the demander instead of the demandee. But don’t be surprised if your fights take longer.

I read the first few messages and can only think safety in numbers get 2 other people you know and you will always have the kicking power and to flip it kick people with high AP. Why you ask cuz there is no why just for the lulz

eyestrain.3056:

I’m between a 2-3. I also don’t want to waste three hours, especially when failing a raid leaves you with literally nothing (and success is pretty scanty in vg/gors).

So, you are experienced that means automatically you will have enough LI to link if there is a LI requirement. If not, you aren’t experienced in killing the boss, you are experienced in fighting and failing over and over again. In that case I wouldn’t take you with me either nowadays because VG is a very easy often killed the first attempt ( = no wipe).

eyestrain.3056:

What i’m seeing are straight up 1s with a density that I never saw even back in dungeon elitist days.

Exactly in this week I’ve met more gentle people in raids than before. Subjective impressions, my dear! Also, I haven’t heard any insults since I have started raiding with pugs. So I met no toxic environment at all.
Gear checks and build checks are legit and smart because there are still too many players out there with no clue. It’s very interesting and funny to watch some groups at Gorseval with almost 0 problems (3-5 wipes and then getting the kill) and others always end up in a massacre over an hour. I met both groups, played the same routine as tempest. Sometimes it is just unbelievable what people are doing in this game, not alone in raids.

There are also enough LFGs without LI requirement but we both know the problem when joining these. You can’t tell if they will succeed so I rather take the group with a requirement than an unknown clown festival.
You can also ninja chat code but take care groups will find out that you are the bad apple and kick you for a reason, insult inclusive. So you better be experienced for real!

eyestrain.3056:

The other thing is that the communities doing dungeon runs back then also found those hardcore dungeon runners a bit of a joke since most of them were copying speedrunners reaching for record times without actually understanding the point, and consequently making those runs 10x longer with gear checks and kicking imperfects for 30min before actually running pretty easy content.

It was the other way round. People with bullkitten gear joined exp groups to get a carry through. They pulled mobs here and there, didn’t stay with the team and much more. Even in AC pugging could end in a fiasco although it is one of the easiest dungeons. Just avoid to join these or be experienced. That’s all. As a human being I (and many others) don’t want to play with all of the playerbase. It’s my right to exclude and uninvite people that don’t fit to my playstyle. All that has nothing to do with elitism. It is rather protecting me from having a harder time than I should have because I can do things better than others and protecting non-experienced players from being totally overextended and feeling not comfortable in playing the game.

rip topic merged.
@ “make your own” – the leaders are usually not the elitist whiners. Usually. It’s the other half dozen people who are used to having their guild runs or something and can’t wrap their head around having a modicum of flexibility or relaxing in a pug run to have fun with it whether it goes well or poorly. Snooty or flat out nasty comments about even meta builds etc because it’s not the super high end raid they prefer. “I can’t imagine why you would run staff ele on vg” is a thing I was once told in total earnest.
In an environment like that i’m not surprised newbies clam up and silently try to sneak by to gain experience instead of saying anything about themselves and getting their kitten chewed off. It’s especially brutal when voice comms are involved and you get to hear the poor kids apologize while some adult lays into them.

Raids are expensive and difficult to get into, don’t give great rewards vs time investment early on, and the community surrounding it is largely unwelcoming; less newbies becoming veterans = less growth, less sustain, longer waits, less fun for everyone. Elitism didn’t prohibit dungeon runs for most people because they were so easy to form party and get through, but it’s a bigger issue when there’s no 5manning or soloing a raid- youve got to turn to the community and an unwelcoming attitude will really shoot everyone in the foot long term imo.

Vinceman.4572:

So, you are experienced that means automatically you will have enough LI to link if there is a LI requirement. If not, you aren’t experienced in killing the boss, you are experienced in fighting and failing over and over again. In that case I wouldn’t take you with me either nowadays because VG is a very easy often killed the first attempt ( = no wipe).
——-

It was the other way round. People with bullkitten gear joined exp groups to get a carry through. They pulled mobs here and there, didn’t stay with the team and much more. Even in AC pugging could end in a fiasco although it is one of the easiest dungeons. Just avoid to join these or be experienced. That’s all. As a human being I (and many others) don’t want to play with all of the playerbase. It’s my right to exclude and uninvite people that don’t fit to my playstyle. All that has nothing to do with elitism. It is rather protecting me from having a harder time than I should have because I can do things better than others and protecting non-experienced players from being totally overextended and feeling not comfortable in playing the game.

mate if you cant carry one baddie in a dungeon I question this confidence you have in your raiding ability. In raids two baddies can be uncarryable but dungeons after HoT are pretty soloable.
Anyway your first point “you either have enough experience because you’ve got the insights or you only know how to wipe” is a pretty good example of the trap people who are trying to get into raiding get stuck in by experienced and pretentious players.

A lot of pugging has to do with luck- if you’re in a mostly good pug, you do your job, you get the kill. If you’re in a mess, you do your job, you don’t get the kill. In both cases you do the same role, like you said. Throwing someone out based on lack of LI is purely a way of seeing pedigree rather than the person and that’s elitism if I’ve ever seen it. How’s a person supposed to accumulate that insight in the first place if they can’t get in any group but other inexperienced or less than perfectly geared pugs?
Where is this magic “getting good (getting LI)” coming from if no one gives new players a chance?
I’ve been in a no wipe VG pug- wasnt even on comms. I had 2 LI at that time. I’ve got 6 now and i’ve been in a few dozen raids, most with poor results. Am I saying i’m perfect? Absolutely not. But lack of proof of kill doesn’t mean a player is a pile of trash incapable of being useful to your team or a scared trembling baby deer that needs to be shooed back out to happy sunshine friendship fields.
No you dont have to play with people you don’t want to but if the entire community has this attitude it’s a sorry future for raids with only the lucky few well connected newbies advancing past this quagmire of sparse pugs and “dont bother coming without 40 LI” experienced groups.

Razor.9872:

3) The experienced in the encounter who are patient and willing to teach others. The true heroes.

Holy kitten I’m so sick of those whiny pushover that are always waiting around for someone to teach them like we all owe them something and if you know an encounter you HAVE to teach every kittening pug that stumbles in your group else you’re a bad person, an elitist and toxic. Then they do like raid of some weeks ago, “mimimi i don’t wanna drag you down i can leave”, instead of listening to my explanations and devoting themselves to become better at max speed. So so much easier to complain and say “I can’t do it”. Jesus christ, bring your problems someplace else, not in a raid group, we’re not your therapist.
OH, and it’s also amazing when you teach them, you carry them through a clear of both wings when they themselves have never cleared them, and then they hop. kitten you. I can’t waste my and everyone else’s time every single week to teach pugs that don’t even say thank youa fter leeching seimur is wrong achiev on their very 1st matthias kill on 2nd attempt of the day. Like, jump in, 1st timer (lied to the whole raid group), die in p3, get carried, get kill, jump out. Every week i get honest firsttimers or liars that weasel their way into the team or plain baddies, and every week i brace myself and explain the mechanics over and over and over and i never kick because I feel guilty as hell, only to have them exploit us like raid mules.
It’s gonna be a very. very long time before I again explain the mechanics for half an hour and get a sore throat for no reason other than trying to be “nice” so people don’t say i’m a “toxic elitist”. Read a kittenign guide. Or maybe I say I give up only cause I?m drunk. Who knows. It’s s o hard to kick people.

deSade.9437:

Razor.9872:

3) The experienced in the encounter who are patient and willing to teach others. The true heroes.

Holy kitten I’m so sick of those whiny pushover that are always waiting around for someone to teach them like we all owe them something and if you know an encounter you HAVE to teach every kittening pug that stumbles in your group else you’re a bad person, an elitist and toxic. Then they do like raid of some weeks ago, “mimimi i don’t wanna drag you down i can leave”, instead of listening to my explanations and devoting themselves to become better at max speed. So so much easier to complain and say “I can’t do it”. Jesus christ, bring your problems someplace else, not in a raid group, we’re not your therapist.
OH, and it’s also amazing when you teach them, you carry them through a clear of both wings when they themselves have never cleared them, and then they hop. kitten you. I can’t waste my and everyone else’s time every single week to teach pugs that don’t even say thank youa fter leeching seimur is wrong achiev on their very 1st matthias kill on 2nd attempt of the day. Like, jump in, 1st timer (lied to the whole raid group), die in p3, get carried, get kill, jump out. Every week i get honest firsttimers or liars that weasel their way into the team or plain baddies, and every week i brace myself and explain the mechanics over and over and over and i never kick because I feel guilty as hell, only to have them exploit us like raid mules.
It’s gonna be a very. very long time before I again explain the mechanics for half an hour and get a sore throat for no reason other than trying to be “nice” so people don’t say i’m a “toxic elitist”. Read a kittenign guide. Or maybe I say I give up only cause I?m drunk. Who knows. It’s s o hard to kick people.

Maybe you need to accept that Pugging just ain’t for you. And I’ll be honest, Pugging ain’t easy, and it’s not for everybody, so, much like everyone else on this topic, I am going to suggest that you find a nice raid guild that shares your play style and raid with them.

STIHL.2489:

deSade.9437:

Razor.9872:

3) The experienced in the encounter who are patient and willing to teach others. The true heroes.

Holy kitten I’m so sick of those whiny pushover that are always waiting around for someone to teach them like we all owe them something and if you know an encounter you HAVE to teach every kittening pug that stumbles in your group else you’re a bad person, an elitist and toxic. Then they do like raid of some weeks ago, “mimimi i don’t wanna drag you down i can leave”, instead of listening to my explanations and devoting themselves to become better at max speed. So so much easier to complain and say “I can’t do it”. Jesus christ, bring your problems someplace else, not in a raid group, we’re not your therapist.
OH, and it’s also amazing when you teach them, you carry them through a clear of both wings when they themselves have never cleared them, and then they hop. kitten you. I can’t waste my and everyone else’s time every single week to teach pugs that don’t even say thank youa fter leeching seimur is wrong achiev on their very 1st matthias kill on 2nd attempt of the day. Like, jump in, 1st timer (lied to the whole raid group), die in p3, get carried, get kill, jump out. Every week i get honest firsttimers or liars that weasel their way into the team or plain baddies, and every week i brace myself and explain the mechanics over and over and over and i never kick because I feel guilty as hell, only to have them exploit us like raid mules.
It’s gonna be a very. very long time before I again explain the mechanics for half an hour and get a sore throat for no reason other than trying to be “nice” so people don’t say i’m a “toxic elitist”. Read a kittenign guide. Or maybe I say I give up only cause I?m drunk. Who knows. It’s s o hard to kick people.

Maybe you need to accept that Pugging just ain’t for you. And I’ll be honest, Pugging ain’t easy, and it’s not for everybody, so, much like everyone else on this topic, I am going to suggest that you find a nice raid guild that shares your play style and raid with them.

He does have a point though, I personally believe in not rushing through content and such, but at the same time allot of pugs dont listen, even when you put things in the lfg describition but maybe your right pugs are not for him.

eyestrain.3056:

mate if you cant carry one baddie in a dungeon I question this confidence you have in your raiding ability. In raids two baddies can be uncarryable but dungeons after HoT are pretty soloable.
Anyway your first point “you either have enough experience because you’ve got the insights or you only know how to wipe” is a pretty good example of the trap people who are trying to get into raiding get stuck in by experienced and pretentious players.

Mate, sometimes I carry up to 4 new or uninformed players through a dungeon. This is no problem after the release of HoT with this gigantic powercreep. You can’t fail – almost. And after a short explanation here and there everything is working fine. I was referring to the pre-HoT time when you could spend half an hour till infinity at the endboss of P2 in AC because people were not willing to listen properly or weren’t able to understand english. Yeah, you don’t need to be good in foreign languages but then you also cannot expect to get a free ride.
And I stil don’t understand why people like you are talking about elitist or toxic people if others are joining LFGs with “experienced only”, “metazerk” and so on. Knowing that this is the wrong group for them and getting a boot. You could even chat with those guys, they understood the text…
This behaviour is much more ignorant toxic and an effrontery! They never made up their own groups with “All welcome” etc. And do you know why? They know exactly that they end up with players like themselves being a total pain in the kitten run. That’s a big true thing about the “metazerk” whining. Because you were always able to open your own group with your own preferences and whatsoever gear in it.

eyestrain.3056:

A lot of pugging has to do with luck

Nope! Only if you aren’t an intelligent person. You just have to select your pug properly. There are so many key words showing wether it’s a decent group or a conglomerate of clowns. I have my safe kills in pugs on Monday and Tuesday with no exception. But I also don’t leave if the group is struggling a bit. In that way I am friendly, polite and persistent with 0 toxic attitude. But if the group I joined made wrong statements in the LFG and there are people in it that fail horribly it is my right to leave them because I don’t want to spend more hours practicing on an encounter I already mastered long time ago. Everybody needs the training, no doubt and I admit that to everyone but not if I am in the mood to get my safe kill.

eyestrain.3056:

Throwing someone out based on lack of LI is purely a way of seeing pedigree rather than the person and that’s elitism if I’ve ever seen it.

Dude, I know you can ninja chat code insights but that’s another thing. But tell me, why it is elitism if I look for players that have seriously done the wings repeatedly? Once again: I don’t want to train if I get my first kill of the week People with less LI have definitely less experience. They haven’t killed the bosses several times so the wipe potential is huge. You really have to tell me why I should play with those people if I want to have my safe kill.

eyestrain.3056:

How’s a person supposed to accumulate that insight in the first place if they can’t get in any group but other inexperienced or less than perfectly geared pugs?

I have the perfect answer for you:
JOIN A GUILD THAT IS TRYING RAIDS!

and no you don’t have any arguments against that. If you don’t have time to get along with people or you have an annoying work schedule then raids aren’t meant for you. Raids themselves cost time and effort and I would rather bet that weekly organized guild runs are better than relying on pugs.
To prevent you from saying another wrong thing: Yes, there are enough guilds out there trying raids and you can join them.
So the possibility for new players is huge, at the moment I can show you over 10 training guilds demanding for people only in the german forum – with zero requirements.
And another yes, if you want your kill, you have to practice. Maybe you have to for 20 hours playtime and still don’t kill one of the bosses. Then it’s either time to change your group roster, move on and most probably you should get better.

eyestrain.3056:

Where is this magic “getting good (getting LI)” coming from if no one gives new players a chance?

Train with a guild
Do you really expect experienced players to get you a walkthrough for free because they invested hours at the raid start and you didn’t so you now have the right to join them and get a kill after some minutes? Are you seriously thinking this is the way it should be?

eyestrain.3056:

I’ve been in a no wipe VG pug- wasnt even on comms. I had 2 LI at that time. I’ve got 6 now and i’ve been in a few dozen raids, most with poor results. Am I saying i’m perfect? Absolutely not. But lack of proof of kill doesn’t mean a player is a pile of trash incapable of being useful to your team or a scared trembling baby deer that needs to be shooed back out to happy sunshine friendship fields.

Indeed, lack of proof kill isn’t a sign for being a pile of trash but if you can’t afford LIs via VG I have to tell you that you aren’t playing very good and that you are the reason for not having them. I see enough groups doing VG without or just little LI requirements on VG and they succeed. This week two people I met joined raids for the first time and they got their VG kill straight. They didn’t get a carry, they watched several video guides, took easy roles (not tank, no green circle group) and did their job just like everyone else.

eyestrain.3056:

No you don’t have to play with people you don’t want to but if the entire community has this attitude it’s a sorry future for raids with only the lucky few well connected newbies advancing past this quagmire of sparse pugs and “dont bother coming without 40 LI” experienced groups.

That’s bs because I already told you to join a guild. If you refuse to do so as a player new to raids at least join training runs. There are enough of them in the LFG. If you are just greedy to get kills and be successful you have to work for it in the first place. Otherwise it won’t work.
I repeat myself again:
The LI requirement protects players from having people that aren’t experienced with safe kills. That is the only thing why requirements are made: People want to have a fast success. Usually, you can’t have that with newer players.

Finally: the word “newbie” is an insult. Just to let you know before you are using it in a chat or elsewhere.

Mere existence of these threads proves that raids in current implementation is a big fail.

Yeah, because we have a handful players complaining about things without using their brains a.k.a. aren’t understanding to use the lfg the right way, aren’t willing to practice and aren’t realizing that raids are a different content than over 95% of the rest of the game.

Sorry, but you are wrong. The implementation of raids is fine without any percent of a doubt and I don’t see your so called “proves” for a second!

Please show us a real prove for a fail. A real one that cannot be eliminated by effort and work (= practice/training).

Vinceman.4572:

Yeah, because we have a handful players complaining about things without using their brains a.k.a. aren’t understanding to use the lfg the right way, aren’t willing to practice and aren’t realizing that raids are a different content than over 95% of the rest of the game.

Sorry, but you are wrong. The implementation of raids is fine without any percent of a doubt and I don’t see your so called “proves” for a second!

Plus, if I may interject, the OP only talked about fractals. It simply got derailed once again