Guild Wars 2

Vinceman.4572:

Yeah, because we have a handful players complaining about things without using their brains a.k.a. aren’t understanding to use the lfg the right way, aren’t willing to practice and aren’t realizing that raids are a different content than over 95% of the rest of the game.

Sorry, but you are wrong. The implementation of raids is fine without any percent of a doubt and I don’t see your so called “proves” for a second!

Please show us a real prove for a fail. A real one that cannot be eliminated by effort and work (= practice/training).

My guild had like 4 raid teams (was first Eternal EU and I guess second worldwide), now it have like 2 with second one is struggling for players. If shrinking raid playerbase is a sign of success for you, then sure, go ahead.
If you want to see example of endgame content done right, you should look at FotM or raids in WoW, but not at GW2 raids.

flog.3485:

Plus, if I may interject, the OP only talked about fractals. It simply got derailed once again

Moderator merged two separate topics. Mine was only about how getting into raids is a major pain in the kitten .

@vince different people have different experiences, assuming i’m having mine because i’m a moron and doing it wrong is condescending and pretentious. Hace nice day.

@Rednik:

Well, that’s your only critical point?
I see enough groups in the LFG every day so maybe it’s a problem in your guild but there is no lack of playerbase at all. And it certainly hasn’t anything to do with elitism.

I only criticize the amount of content that is realeased in a certain time span. Anet is very slow, has always been and will always be slow with it. But that’s not a raid-only problem, it is game wide.

eyestrain.3056:

@vince different people have different experiences, assuming i’m having mine because i’m a moron and doing it wrong is condescending and pretentious. Hace nice day.

Nobody said that you are a moron. But it is very astounding that so many players are pugging without any of your mentioned problems. The first thing to do is always look on yourself and what you can do to improve your situation and not blaming a system or a huge playerbase that doesn’t share your opinion. Your attitude reminds me of the leading MOBA in the gaming scene I was playing some years ago. People were always blaming their other 4 random mates and that they were responsible for stucking in lower tiers. It was shown that the problem lay by themselves, their build, their masteries and their unwillingness to train several basic things that were needed to be successful in the game.
Tbh it’s not a gaming problem, I am facing the same issues as teacher in school and with parents of my pupils.

And yeah, I already told you to join a training guild. If you still refuse to do it we cannot help you. Sneaking into groups to get the kill as a snack is very selfish and impolite even though I can understand this mentality. It’s just plain wrong.

Vinceman.4572:

@Rednik:

Well, that’s your only critical point?
I see enough groups in the LFG every day so maybe it’s a problem in your guild but there is no lack of playerbase at all.

Can you give an example of not raid-oriented guild where raiding playerbase not decreased since raid release?

Rednik.3809:

Can you give an example of not raid-oriented guild where raiding playerbase not decreased since raid release?

I don’t understand what you are trying to say, sorry.

A not raid-oriented guild won’t play raids or maybe they try them and sure, in many cases they haven’t succeeded but Anet is very pleased about the numbers of players that raid consistently. Even more, the company confirmed that there are way more people playing raids than they have thought.
So, I still can’t see any fail implementation.

vince- my raid build: http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Tempest_-_Staff_DPS_ full ascended armor, wep, trinkets.
9k hours experience in game across all game modes, primarily wvw/pvp, but do fractals every day (150 AR). Dungeon master title and all dungeon skins unlocked. I watch youtube/read guides before joining something for the first time. I use voice comms, run the meta food and wrench, and don’t take responsibilities i’m not comfortable with without explaining i’m inexperienced first and asking for extra help. Oh and i’m part of a raid guild.

You’ve got my pedigree. But I’m still dragging down my pugs, sneaking in and being dishonest, because only those weasels would have the complains i’m having. Or, I’m advocating for those people, and not average, honest players facing a wall of elitism when starting raids. You’ve shown your own pretension by assuming so much about the source of my grief without knowing me at all.
I’ve said my piece and arguing on forums is about as productive as yelling into kitten lmfao the forum censored the word hole with the letter a in front of it

Dude, I am just asking myself why you are facing so many problems while a huge part of the raid community that is pugging doesn’t.

Also, why are you pugging when having a raid guild? If you aren’t comfortable with pugging raids, just use your guild group and stay away from random players.
Last but not least: raids were never meant to pug. Yes, it is working but the idea was never behind it.
In addition all pugs I met wanted to have the players at least listen to TS. So, you can’t speak of a pug anymore because it is more organized than a pug.

Vinceman.4572:

I don’t understand what you are trying to say, sorry.

A not raid-oriented guild won’t play raids or maybe they try them and sure, in many cases they haven’t succeeded but Anet is very pleased about the numbers of players that raid consistently. Even more, the company confirmed that there are way more people playing raids than they have thought.
So, I still can’t see any fail implementation.

So you can’t give even a single example of increasing raid playerbase in any guild except for tiny amount of specific raid ones and you still call it a successful implementation. Right.

Again: Anet is comfortable with raids like they are and they have the numbers.

And why should I give an example of an increasing raid playerbase, especially after 8 months when content gets older and older and it’s obvious that some people will leave raids like they are doing in any other game? I still don’t get that and no, I am not the responsible one to show you an example.

Furthermore, are you having significant numbers besides your own guild? Have you done a valid statistical analysis of lfg entries about raids and your results showing a significant decrease in players playing the raid?

Ok, all that has been rhetorical, you don’t have.

I think we all better trust the company than a forum guy with worthless assumptions.

Rednik.3809:

Mere existence of these threads proves that raids in current implementation is a big fail.

Nope. It’s the casuals who can’t put the effort in that is proving to be a failure.

Vinceman.4572:

Again: Anet is comfortable with raids like they are and they have the numbers.

And why should I give an example of an increasing raid playerbase, especially after 8 months when content gets older and older and it’s obvious that some people will leave raids like they are doing in any other game? I still don’t get that and no, I am not the responsible one to show you an example.

Because it’s a major (if not main) characteristic of successful endgame content? Like, you know, FotM, where you have constant flow of casuals coming to low scales and then improving up to T4. That’s how you keeping your population big, healthy and satisfied.

Vinceman.4572:

I think we all better trust the company than a forum guy with worthless assumptions.

Just like we trusted them about huge success of esports, right?

Rednik.3809:

Because it’s a major (if not main) characteristic of successful endgame content? Like, you know, FotM, where you have constant flow of casuals coming to low scales and then improving up to T4. That’s how you keeping your population big, healthy and satisfied.

Hmm right, not that fractals are hell boring and people just playing them for the rewards. At least raids are played for challenge and fun, unfortunately the rewards aren’t that good.

Rednik.3809:

Just like we trusted them about huge success of esports, right?

First, they tried to be successful in esports but that’s no fast-selling item. you cannot enforce it.
Second it was obvious to most of the players that GW2 is far away from being an A-level esport game.
Third you should stop arguing with conspirancy theories. It won’t help anybody.

Vinceman.4572:

Hmm right, not that fractals are hell boring and people just playing them for the rewards. At least raids are played for challenge and fun, unfortunately the rewards aren’t that good.

Because, you know, last new content in fractals was almost 3 years ago, but even now fractals population remaining huge, healthy and constantly getting new players? If this is not sign of really successful and well-made endgame content, then I have no idea what content is good at all.
And I’m pretty sure that if anet will decide to move their raid team to fractals, it will be MUCH more successful than any raid in current implementation.

First, they tried to be successful in esports but that’s no fast-selling item. you cannot enforce it.
Second it was obvious to most of the players that GW2 is far away from being an A-level esport game.
Third you should stop arguing with conspirancy theories. It won’t help anybody.

It was just an example of another “great success” without any real numbers behind it.

bohoo, OP’s friend got kicked from a fractal by elitists. I had a time when 4 ppl sub 3k AP joined my group and kicked me from the daily fractal (most likely cause they couldn’t open it themselves, so they hijacked another group with a single person in it). did I cry? no, I just made a new group, end of story. how much did he lose by getting kicked from the very start of the fractal?

Rednik.3809:

Because, you know, last new content in fractals was almost 3 years ago, but even now fractals population remaining huge, healthy and constantly getting new players? If this is not sign of really successful and well-made endgame content, then I have no idea what content is good at all.
And I’m pretty sure that if anet will decide to move their raid team to fractals, it will be MUCH more successful than any raid in current implementation.

Not that fractals got several (little) revamps, new achievements and so on and they are still boring. It would be the same with raids. Almost no one is running them for fun!
Also the fractal community was claiming that it takes way too long to get a frac update, new ones and many other things more over a long period so that many fractal players have left. Fracs are casual content now, they weren’t before and no one was whining. So, it has nothing to do with raids being bad content or a fail implementation.

Vinceman.4572:

At least raids are played for challenge and fun, unfortunately the rewards aren’t that good.

The several thousand posts on this topic have made it very clear that no one plays raids for the challenge or the fun, it’s all about that loot.

STIHL.2489:

Vinceman.4572:

At least raids are played for challenge and fun, unfortunately the rewards aren’t that good.

The several thousand posts on this topic have made it very clear that no one plays raids for the challenge or the fun, it’s all about that loot.

Yeah, because the loot is so awesome besides shards. It’s more that raids are newer than fracs, more challenging, the loot is decent so the packet is ok. Fracs are way more rewarding and that’s the reason for the overwhelming majority to play them.

It’s not elitism but simply the difficult content and bad players that cause these problems.

“Good players” (experienced and/or skilled players) want to clear the content.
“Bad players” (unexperienced and/or unskilled players) want to clear the content too.

Now pretty much everybody wants to avoid the “bad players” and they only want to play with the “good players”. (Remember: They want to clear the content).

The funny thing here is that not only the “good players” do this but even the “bad players” which results in more requirements and more checks to avoid those “fakers”.

The problem with that is that those requirements aren’t perfect. “Bad players” can fake their Legendary Insights and just lie and say they are experienced (resulting in kicks after a wipe and more delays) and actual “good players” without many boss kills and Legendary Insights get kicked without even a try.

If you look at this the cause are after all the “bad players” (which exist because of the high difficulty). NOT because of the “good players”.

To the ones who complain:
If you are have the skill to beat the boss I can only recommend you to find a raid guild and to prove them that you are good. IF YOU ARE ACTUALLY GOOD YOU WILL FIND A PLACE.
If you don’t have the skill to beat the boss: Practice, practice, practice. And if you don’t want to practice raiding isn’t for you.

Wait until you do a fractal with 4 randomers, who have a lot of pride but do not know mechanics. At which point you try to help and explain so things will be done, when they call you a noob and kick you.

There is elitism everywhere, even what I’d say in response: kitten the morons.

Vinceman.4572:

STIHL.2489:

Vinceman.4572:

At least raids are played for challenge and fun, unfortunately the rewards aren’t that good.

The several thousand posts on this topic have made it very clear that no one plays raids for the challenge or the fun, it’s all about that loot.

Yeah, because the loot is so awesome besides shards. It’s more that raids are newer than fracs, more challenging, the loot is decent so the packet is ok. Fracs are way more rewarding and that’s the reason for the overwhelming majority to play them.

When it comes to PvE, it only about the loot, that includes the Raids. You can try to slice it anyway you want, but as far as PvE goes… it’s all about that loot.

deSade.9437:

Razor.9872:

3) The experienced in the encounter who are patient and willing to teach others. The true heroes.

Holy kitten I’m so sick of those whiny pushover that are always waiting around for someone to teach them like we all owe them something and if you know an encounter you HAVE to teach every kittening pug that stumbles in your group else you’re a bad person, an elitist and toxic. Then they do like raid of some weeks ago, “mimimi i don’t wanna drag you down i can leave”, instead of listening to my explanations and devoting themselves to become better at max speed. So so much easier to complain and say “I can’t do it”. Jesus christ, bring your problems someplace else, not in a raid group, we’re not your therapist.
OH, and it’s also amazing when you teach them, you carry them through a clear of both wings when they themselves have never cleared them, and then they hop. kitten you. I can’t waste my and everyone else’s time every single week to teach pugs that don’t even say thank youa fter leeching seimur is wrong achiev on their very 1st matthias kill on 2nd attempt of the day. Like, jump in, 1st timer (lied to the whole raid group), die in p3, get carried, get kill, jump out. Every week i get honest firsttimers or liars that weasel their way into the team or plain baddies, and every week i brace myself and explain the mechanics over and over and over and i never kick because I feel guilty as hell, only to have them exploit us like raid mules.
It’s gonna be a very. very long time before I again explain the mechanics for half an hour and get a sore throat for no reason other than trying to be “nice” so people don’t say i’m a “toxic elitist”. Read a kittenign guide. Or maybe I say I give up only cause I?m drunk. Who knows. It’s s o hard to kick people.

That is why I called them heros. Because holding on to your sanity for those extended periods of time is truely difficult.

eyestrain.3056:

So Anet, you know how everything you’ve done in pve up to this point has been to make players want to play with each other and have a nice social time? Raids have brought a community of elitism and pretension that is the opposite of that. As someone who’s very well geared and has pumped a lot of time into all game modes, even I found it very hard to get a foothold in teaching runs for VG (a fairly easy boss) or even runs that don’t require 20+ insights and multiclassing.

The lfr tool has improved a bit now that people don’t have to list willy nilly in open world but the wait times to get a party together are usually longer than the actual runs last when inflexible primadonnas drop out if a single thing is different than their favorite way of doing it. The bosses are pretty fun but frankly they’re not fun enough to justify hours drained just trying to get and maintain a group.

I’m expecting a lot of “get good scrublord” and “you are trash and that’s why no one wants to play with you” comments but if anything I think it highlights how nasty and pretentious the raid community has rapidly become.

And before anyone suggests it, I already joined a raid exclusive guild- gear and insights requirements and all. It’s still a trial to get a group together, waste expensive utility/food, and get little to nothing out of it but people being annoyed with each other.

tldr pugging raids is like pulling teeth and that annoying (and hilarious) 20K AP+ ALL META WARRIOR ZERK PING GEAR elitism has become uncomfortably normal instead of the joke it has always been in gw2 pve

Honestly the developers never intended for raids being Pugged, quite the opposite to what we are seeing at this point in time, ya know pug groups clearing Matthias. If anything the fact that people are still pugging raids speaks volumes about the skill level and health you see in the raiding audience. From my experience dungeons were more toxic.

The reason open world and fractals have more players has nothing to do with elitism or the content. It is the rewards… What happened to dungeons, FGS train and auric basin after the devs restructured rewards?

Rednik.3809:

Vinceman.4572:

Again: Anet is comfortable with raids like they are and they have the numbers.

And why should I give an example of an increasing raid playerbase, especially after 8 months when content gets older and older and it’s obvious that some people will leave raids like they are doing in any other game? I still don’t get that and no, I am not the responsible one to show you an example.

Because it’s a major (if not main) characteristic of successful endgame content? Like, you know, FotM, where you have constant flow of casuals coming to low scales and then improving up to T4. That’s how you keeping your population big, healthy and satisfied.

@Rednik.3809 Just for reference about what Vinceman.4572 is saying. While Anet did say they were very happy with the numbers of people that do raids, and that is was much higher then other games, they also admitted that they were expecting around 3% participation, as that is what other games, like WoW, have, and they openly admitted such.

While they have not put out raw numbers of population, even if they were around 300% over expectation, that would still be less then 10% of the population doing raids currently, and perhaps, as the new shiny wears off, even less will get involved.

I tend to agree with you however, that the way to really build up a solid end game is build progressive encounters, much like how Fractals has level 1 – 100, with slow progression of difficulty and even things like AR needed, so that players can build up into the harder content as they go.

Given that Anet has made it mostly clear that they are still experimenting with the game, with what works and what does not, the future of raids, could go the way of Fractals, where Anet fights to keep them active and alive, or they could go the way of Dungeons where Anet sweeps them under the rug.

It would be great if there were more elitists doing dungeons and fractals.
Cause pugging is usually a disturbing waste of time.

STIHL.2489:

Vinceman.4572:

At least raids are played for challenge and fun, unfortunately the rewards aren’t that good.

The several thousand posts on this topic have made it very clear that no one plays raids for the challenge or the fun, it’s all about that loot.

Bullcrap. I almost always have every raid boss killed by Monday, but I still like doing raids with my guildies on the weekend, even though I don’t get any reward for it. I have 3 other friends that do the same with their own guilds, just because for us, it’s a really enjoyable experience all around.

Just because you don’t like something doesn’t mean no one else does. :/

Mechalibur.9618:

STIHL.2489:

Vinceman.4572:

At least raids are played for challenge and fun, unfortunately the rewards aren’t that good.

The several thousand posts on this topic have made it very clear that no one plays raids for the challenge or the fun, it’s all about that loot.

Bullcrap. I almost always have every raid boss killed by Monday, but I still like doing raids with my guildies on the weekend, even though I don’t get any reward for it. I have 3 other friends that do the same with their own guilds, just because for us, it’s a really enjoyable experience all around.

Just because you don’t like something doesn’t mean no one else does. :/

So, you would be fine if say, players could get the same loot and rewards though fractals, or if world bosses dropped mag shards, or if players could open/complete the Legendary Armor Collections by doing Jump puzzles?

I’m gonna bet you’re gonna say No, because, in the end, it’s all about that sweet, sweet, unique raid loot.

STIHL.2489:

Mechalibur.9618:

STIHL.2489:

Vinceman.4572:

At least raids are played for challenge and fun, unfortunately the rewards aren’t that good.

The several thousand posts on this topic have made it very clear that no one plays raids for the challenge or the fun, it’s all about that loot.

Bullcrap. I almost always have every raid boss killed by Monday, but I still like doing raids with my guildies on the weekend, even though I don’t get any reward for it. I have 3 other friends that do the same with their own guilds, just because for us, it’s a really enjoyable experience all around.

Just because you don’t like something doesn’t mean no one else does. :/

So, you would be fine if say, players could get the same loot and rewards though fractals, or if world bosses dropped mag shards, or if players could open/complete the Legendary Armor Collections by doing Jump puzzles?

I’m gonna bet you’re gonna say No, because, in the end, it’s all about that sweet, sweet, unique raid loot.

It’s about getting more with your time… which right now barely works. If it didn’t have unique rewards it should give something like 10 gold (mats or pure it doesn’t matter) per boss AT LEAST.

/small edit

Neox.3497:

STIHL.2489:

Mechalibur.9618:

STIHL.2489:

Vinceman.4572:

At least raids are played for challenge and fun, unfortunately the rewards aren’t that good.

The several thousand posts on this topic have made it very clear that no one plays raids for the challenge or the fun, it’s all about that loot.

Bullcrap. I almost always have every raid boss killed by Monday, but I still like doing raids with my guildies on the weekend, even though I don’t get any reward for it. I have 3 other friends that do the same with their own guilds, just because for us, it’s a really enjoyable experience all around.

Just because you don’t like something doesn’t mean no one else does. :/

So, you would be fine if say, players could get the same loot and rewards though fractals, or if world bosses dropped mag shards, or if players could open/complete the Legendary Armor Collections by doing Jump puzzles?

I’m gonna bet you’re gonna say No, because, in the end, it’s all about that sweet, sweet, unique raid loot.

It’s about getting more with your time… which right now barely works. If it didn’t have unique rewards it should give something like 10 gold (mats or pure it doesn’t matter) per boss AT LEAST.

/small edit

Thank you for proving my point, it’s all about that loot.

I, personally, would be all up for allowing people who don’t raid to get Legendary armor/other raid rewards assuming there was a step that was shared between the two that was a test of personal skill. The reason for this is that the rewards would be a mark of “this player is this good” and not just a gold grind fest like everything else in the game. The only way to accomplish this is to have the players do a task in a solo instance, eg. soloing Lupi with no one else in your group. Truthfully I really hope that Legendary armor has this requirement in a future collection for it to stop all the fat cats who have bought raid runs from ruining the prestige that a legendary should have.

STIHL.2489:

Neox.3497:

STIHL.2489:

Mechalibur.9618:

STIHL.2489:

Vinceman.4572:

At least raids are played for challenge and fun, unfortunately the rewards aren’t that good.

The several thousand posts on this topic have made it very clear that no one plays raids for the challenge or the fun, it’s all about that loot.

Bullcrap. I almost always have every raid boss killed by Monday, but I still like doing raids with my guildies on the weekend, even though I don’t get any reward for it. I have 3 other friends that do the same with their own guilds, just because for us, it’s a really enjoyable experience all around.

Just because you don’t like something doesn’t mean no one else does. :/

So, you would be fine if say, players could get the same loot and rewards though fractals, or if world bosses dropped mag shards, or if players could open/complete the Legendary Armor Collections by doing Jump puzzles?

I’m gonna bet you’re gonna say No, because, in the end, it’s all about that sweet, sweet, unique raid loot.

It’s about getting more with your time… which right now barely works. If it didn’t have unique rewards it should give something like 10 gold (mats or pure it doesn’t matter) per boss AT LEAST.

/small edit

Thank you for proving my point, it’s all about that loot.

You’ve got a point, but that point can be applied to any part of the game. If you remove the rewards from raids, a lot less player would run them, but this is true for PvP leagues, fractals or the HoT meta events, or in other words , for most part of the game or any (MMO) game.

STIHL.2489:

Neox.3497:

STIHL.2489:

Mechalibur.9618:

STIHL.2489:

Vinceman.4572:

At least raids are played for challenge and fun, unfortunately the rewards aren’t that good.

The several thousand posts on this topic have made it very clear that no one plays raids for the challenge or the fun, it’s all about that loot.

Bullcrap. I almost always have every raid boss killed by Monday, but I still like doing raids with my guildies on the weekend, even though I don’t get any reward for it. I have 3 other friends that do the same with their own guilds, just because for us, it’s a really enjoyable experience all around.

Just because you don’t like something doesn’t mean no one else does. :/

So, you would be fine if say, players could get the same loot and rewards though fractals, or if world bosses dropped mag shards, or if players could open/complete the Legendary Armor Collections by doing Jump puzzles?

I’m gonna bet you’re gonna say No, because, in the end, it’s all about that sweet, sweet, unique raid loot.

It’s about getting more with your time… which right now barely works. If it didn’t have unique rewards it should give something like 10 gold (mats or pure it doesn’t matter) per boss AT LEAST.

/small edit

Thank you for proving my point, it’s all about that loot.

My post was to show you that we don’t need “exclusive rewards”.

Now WHY would you do something difficult that also takes more time if you can just press 1 and get the same loot? Difficulty should be REWARDED.

Harder the content = Better/more loot

How hard is that to understand? It’s so simple, makes sense and is fair. Why would anyone be against this philosophy?

There is a difference between elitism and wanting to clear content. I often PUG fractals and dungeons daily. If my LFG states experienced only and a base guardian using a staff with 500 AP joins, I will kick them. I don’t consider this to be elitist, it’s more of a literary test. If I join a group with inexperienced players, I won’t kick them because it isn’t my LFG. I have left these groups before and have been called an elitist because of it, but having limited play time I don’t feel obligated to spend hours teaching mechanics.

That being said, I’ve never seen a group of people join a fractal party which had been advertised and kick the person who started the LFG before, it sounds like your friend just got unlucky. While I do agree elitism is real, it’s hardly a concern. I personally enjoy avoiding these often toxic players, they are not worth the energy.

Scipio.3204:

STIHL.2489:

Neox.3497:

STIHL.2489:

Mechalibur.9618:

STIHL.2489:

Vinceman.4572:

At least raids are played for challenge and fun, unfortunately the rewards aren’t that good.

The several thousand posts on this topic have made it very clear that no one plays raids for the challenge or the fun, it’s all about that loot.

Bullcrap. I almost always have every raid boss killed by Monday, but I still like doing raids with my guildies on the weekend, even though I don’t get any reward for it. I have 3 other friends that do the same with their own guilds, just because for us, it’s a really enjoyable experience all around.

Just because you don’t like something doesn’t mean no one else does. :/

So, you would be fine if say, players could get the same loot and rewards though fractals, or if world bosses dropped mag shards, or if players could open/complete the Legendary Armor Collections by doing Jump puzzles?

I’m gonna bet you’re gonna say No, because, in the end, it’s all about that sweet, sweet, unique raid loot.

It’s about getting more with your time… which right now barely works. If it didn’t have unique rewards it should give something like 10 gold (mats or pure it doesn’t matter) per boss AT LEAST.

/small edit

Thank you for proving my point, it’s all about that loot.

You’ve got a point, but that point can be applied to any part of the game. If you remove the rewards from raids, a lot less player would run them, but this is true for PvP leagues, fractals or the HoT meta events, or in other words , for most part of the game or any (MMO) game.

Not really, look at PvP. The rewards are dismal, yet fighting a adaptable unscripted opponent is around the hardest encounter a player can face.

Yet people play sPvP and WvW in droves, simply because they enjoy the game mode. While the rewards have been boosted, they are still legions behind anything PvE offers for far less challenge or difficulty.

In fact look at MOBA, like Team fortress, what is the reward there beyond the fleeting feeling of victory?

So no, it does not define any game, it purely confined to PvE games.

I wonder why that is?

Neox.3497:

STIHL.2489:

Neox.3497:

STIHL.2489:

Mechalibur.9618:

STIHL.2489:

Vinceman.4572:

At least raids are played for challenge and fun, unfortunately the rewards aren’t that good.

The several thousand posts on this topic have made it very clear that no one plays raids for the challenge or the fun, it’s all about that loot.

Bullcrap. I almost always have every raid boss killed by Monday, but I still like doing raids with my guildies on the weekend, even though I don’t get any reward for it. I have 3 other friends that do the same with their own guilds, just because for us, it’s a really enjoyable experience all around.

Just because you don’t like something doesn’t mean no one else does. :/

So, you would be fine if say, players could get the same loot and rewards though fractals, or if world bosses dropped mag shards, or if players could open/complete the Legendary Armor Collections by doing Jump puzzles?

I’m gonna bet you’re gonna say No, because, in the end, it’s all about that sweet, sweet, unique raid loot.

It’s about getting more with your time… which right now barely works. If it didn’t have unique rewards it should give something like 10 gold (mats or pure it doesn’t matter) per boss AT LEAST.

/small edit

Thank you for proving my point, it’s all about that loot.

My post was to show you that we don’t need “exclusive rewards”.

Now WHY would you do something difficult that also takes more time if you can just press 1 and get the same loot? Difficulty should be REWARDED.

Harder the content = Better/more loot

How hard is that to understand? It’s so simple, makes sense and is fair. Why would anyone be against this philosophy?

Well, not saying you do this, but some people make the claim that they want Difficult content because they seek challenge and that it is the thrill that drives them.

Now, Thank you for illustrating that is not the case, and that it’s really, all about the loot.

If I played for rewards I would not play GW2. True story.

And please stop hijacking another discussion, STIHL. This thread is about another topic and not rewards.

Azoqu.8917:

I, personally, would be all up for allowing people who don’t raid to get Legendary armor/other raid rewards assuming there was a step that was shared between the two that was a test of personal skill. The reason for this is that the rewards would be a mark of “this player is this good” and not just a gold grind fest like everything else in the game. The only way to accomplish this is to have the players do a task in a solo instance, eg. soloing Lupi with no one else in your group. Truthfully I really hope that Legendary armor has this requirement in a future collection for it to stop all the fat cats who have bought raid runs from ruining the prestige that a legendary should have.

Absolutely agreed. Too bad this won’t happen, for two reasons:
1) It would require Anet to actually do something. They would need to produce content that allows this + fix bugs like lupi oneshot. I haven’t seen them fix a major gamebreaking bug related to dungeons in the last 2 years.
2) Based on how people tend to speak in general discussion + judging the game’s audience as a whole, nobody would want that. People keep whining and crying how hard the game is (despite it being extremely easy and casual) which eventually leads the devs to dumbing down the content. Also, the reward structure is based on communism and is specifically designed to punish elite players and skilled play. Even if you perform extremely poorly and contribute next to nothing, you’ll get full rewards just like the good people, who essentially carried the whole group through.

Here’s my prediction:
For a while, legendary armor will be raid exclusive because Anet will be lazy to create more content. They’ll just stick with that they’ve prepared already. After a few months of bad people QQing on forums and reddit, they will decide to dumb in down and make it so trivial that everybody and their momma will be able to acquire legendary armor with literally zero effort.

Do you know why there’s elitism and exclusion in this game? Because of the poor reward structure that doesn’t measure contribution or reward skilled play. If I got some extra rewards that would compensate for the insane time loss, I’d be more than willing to take things slowly and carry a newbie through a dungeon or a raid. But the game, as it is now, will give me nothing, even if I do 90% of the work myself. Why would I care then? Especially since in most cases these people won’t even listen to you/cooperate in any way. I’ve been doing this for some time, but after a while you start to feel so extremely punished by the game for trying to help that you just stop doing it. Zero reward for carrying someone through, so why in the world would I wanna do that?

STIHL.2489:

Mechalibur.9618:

STIHL.2489:

Vinceman.4572:

At least raids are played for challenge and fun, unfortunately the rewards aren’t that good.

The several thousand posts on this topic have made it very clear that no one plays raids for the challenge or the fun, it’s all about that loot.

Bullcrap. I almost always have every raid boss killed by Monday, but I still like doing raids with my guildies on the weekend, even though I don’t get any reward for it. I have 3 other friends that do the same with their own guilds, just because for us, it’s a really enjoyable experience all around.

Just because you don’t like something doesn’t mean no one else does. :/

So, you would be fine if say, players could get the same loot and rewards though fractals, or if world bosses dropped mag shards, or if players could open/complete the Legendary Armor Collections by doing Jump puzzles?

I’m gonna bet you’re gonna say No, because, in the end, it’s all about that sweet, sweet, unique raid loot.

Yes, I would still do raids if there were no unique rewards. They’re the most fun I’ve had in game since launch.

doddbox.8153:

Harper.4173:

doddbox.8153:

The people publishing AP requirements are advertising how bad they are themselves, I wouldn’t be too bummed about getting kicked by people like that. Find or make some friends to run dailies and avoid taking more than 2 pugs in any run.

How exactly are people bad if they simply dislike to play with certain people?
How am I bad if I want people that I know will most likely know the content by heart. How am I bad if I don’t feel like explaining stuff to new players?

You’re bad for trusting that AP correlates with any part of what you just said, to which it doesn’t. (Also helps to read the post so I can avoid future repeat answers)

You’re bad for not understanding that there’s a clear trend that correlates AP and player skill. It’s not 100% perfect.
But more often than not a 20k+ AP player will be significantly better than a let’s say 5k AP player.

Also a 5k AP player is MILES ahead of a 500 AP player – in the majority of situations.
Exceptions exist – the rule still stands.

STIHL.2489:

Thank you for proving my point, it’s all about that loot.

Why do I clear both wings 4 times a week if I only get loot for the first one?

STIHL.2489:

Neox.3497:

STIHL.2489:

Neox.3497:

STIHL.2489:

Mechalibur.9618:

STIHL.2489:

Vinceman.4572:

At least raids are played for challenge and fun, unfortunately the rewards aren’t that good.

The several thousand posts on this topic have made it very clear that no one plays raids for the challenge or the fun, it’s all about that loot.

Bullcrap. I almost always have every raid boss killed by Monday, but I still like doing raids with my guildies on the weekend, even though I don’t get any reward for it. I have 3 other friends that do the same with their own guilds, just because for us, it’s a really enjoyable experience all around.

Just because you don’t like something doesn’t mean no one else does. :/

So, you would be fine if say, players could get the same loot and rewards though fractals, or if world bosses dropped mag shards, or if players could open/complete the Legendary Armor Collections by doing Jump puzzles?

I’m gonna bet you’re gonna say No, because, in the end, it’s all about that sweet, sweet, unique raid loot.

It’s about getting more with your time… which right now barely works. If it didn’t have unique rewards it should give something like 10 gold (mats or pure it doesn’t matter) per boss AT LEAST.

/small edit

Thank you for proving my point, it’s all about that loot.

My post was to show you that we don’t need “exclusive rewards”.

Now WHY would you do something difficult that also takes more time if you can just press 1 and get the same loot? Difficulty should be REWARDED.

Harder the content = Better/more loot

How hard is that to understand? It’s so simple, makes sense and is fair. Why would anyone be against this philosophy?

Well, not saying you do this, but some people make the claim that they want Difficult content because they seek challenge and that it is the thrill that drives them.

Now, Thank you for illustrating that is not the case, and that it’s really, all about the loot.

Are you kidding me? It’s about seeking challenge AND getting rewarded. Is it possible to get that into your brain?

Example:
I HATED doing SW (and still do) for the rewards (which was the BEST at that time) but I LOVE doing raids for the rewards.

If what you said is true and I do raids only for the loot why did I rarely do SW? Maybe, just maybe I do the raids because of added challenge?

Also you can’t have content without appropriate loot in an MMORPG. The only exceptions are stuff like role-playing but otherwise pretty much every player wants to be rewarded for certain content in an MMORPG and if the loot isn’t balanced right you might see players not wanting to play that content (WvW before the update? Dungeons after HoT?). So why shouldn’t raids be balanced right?

Vinceman.4572:

If I played for rewards I would not play GW2. True story.

And please stop hijacking another discussion, STIHL. This thread is about another topic and not rewards.

Woah there, you’re the one that started it. So, if anyone made the first moves to derail or hijack the thread, it was you, not me. I simply responded to you.

Added: And all things said and done, I bid a thank you to the people that were upfront and honest about their drives and motives, as such I don’t need to read posts were people try to dance the issue or make efforts to backpedaled or whatever.

There is nothing wrong with being honest about one’s intentions, that the drive to ask for challenge is done under the pretense or disguise that it will provide better/more reward. So it’s not challenge for the sake of it, it’s not being competitive for the fun of competition, like PvP and WvW is designed. It’s really, all about the Loot.

Now, Feel free to go back to discussing kicking someone from a 13 fractal.

Well, I just mentioned rewards in the context while you were focussing completely on the reward thing. Nevermind.

And now you should admit that there are many players playing PvE for the challenge plus or minus loot and also that a huge chunk of PvPers (the majority) are only there because there is a backpiece to acquire, not to mention the chasers for titles, APs and reward paths. ^^

Vinceman.4572:

And now you should admit that there are many players playing PvE for the challenge plus or minus loot and also that a huge chunk of PvPers (the majority) are only there because there is a backpiece to acquire, not to mention the chasers for titles, APs and reward paths. ^^

This. Plus there is a difference between an incentive and a reason to play something. The raid rewards (mainly magnetite shards for whatever you use them and the legendary armor) are incentives to play the raid, the reason differs between people.
I think he didn’t know that :P

Vinceman.4572:

Well, I just mentioned rewards in the context while you were focussing completely on the reward thing. Nevermind.

And now you should admit that there are many players playing PvE for the challenge plus or minus loot and also that a huge chunk of PvPers (the majority) are only there because there is a backpiece to acquire, not to mention the chasers for titles, APs and reward paths. ^^

You do realize that, Incentive and motive are in essence the same thing. And given the complete lack of PvP wings I have seen, vs the volume of People I see in the PvP Lobby, I’m going to have to totally disagree with you. Maybe there is an influx of PvE’ers that show up in search of the shinies when the Tourney starts, which can give that perception to loot chasers, but, to someone that is there day in and day out, no such motive exists.

And PvE is played Purely for the Loot and Rewards.

Yeah, and PvP for challenge, E-Sports as well as glory and honor. LOL!

Vinceman.4572:

Yeah, and PvP for challenge, E-Sports as well as glory and honor. LOL!

Scripted Combat can’t be done for challenge, once the choreographed moves have been learned, it quickly becomes a repeatable routine, with the only challenge being in what the other players do.

Which brings us back to elitism and PUG’s, If there really was any desire for thrill and challenge in PvE, no one would be an elitist that just wants to quickly clear content.

Set, Game, and Match.

Holy sh.., d you even know that many of the very good PvP-players (not talking about the few “esports guys”) are the ones who are posting in this subforum because they usually play PvE and belong to the speedrun community? I guess not. This ignorance hurts…

And second paragraph leads to absurdism when you notice that PvP is way more toxic than PvE. So after your logic PvP is far-out from thrill and challenge.

STIHL.2489:

Vinceman.4572:

Yeah, and PvP for challenge, E-Sports as well as glory and honor. LOL!

Scripted Combat can’t be done for challenge, once the choreographed moves have been learned, it quickly becomes a repeatable routine, with the only challenge being in what the other players do.

Which brings us back to elitism and PUG’s, If there really was any desire for thrill and challenge in PvE, no one would be an elitist that just wants to quickly clear content.

Set, Game, and Match.

Wow. Whats going on in your head. Your hate towards raids and players doing them is crazy.

You basically say raids aren’t challenging and you complain that people don’t do raids with unskilled/newer players. If it would be so easy why are there still soooo many that are still not able to kill the Vale Guardian?

And as I said I want “challenging” content WITH good rewards. If I only wanted the reward I would farm SW or multi loot Tarir all the time. But I don’t.

So how can the reward be the only reason I do raids?

Vinceman.4572:

Holy sh.., d you even know that many of the very good PvP-players (not talking about the few “esports guys”) are the ones who are posting in this subforum because they usually play PvE and belong to the speedrun community? I guess not. This ignorance hurts…

And second paragraph leads to absurdism when you notice that PvP is way more toxic than PvE. So after your logic PvP is far-out from thrill and challenge.

Also why are PvP players complaining when they get bad teammates. I mean “If there really was any desire for thrill and challenge in PvP, no one would be an elitist that just wants to win.”

Vinceman.4572:

Holy sh.., d you even know that many of the very good PvP-players (not talking about the few “esports guys”) are the ones who are posting in this subforum because they usually play PvE and belong to the speedrun community? I guess not. This ignorance hurts…

And second paragraph leads to absurdism when you notice that PvP is way more toxic than PvE. So after your logic PvP is far-out from thrill and challenge.

I wouldn’t bother Vince, he’s just as bad as Ohoni lol, can’t even begin to fathom other people’s opinions and motivations if they’re different to his own.

STIHL.2489:

Vinceman.4572:

Yeah, and PvP for challenge, E-Sports as well as glory and honor. LOL!

Scripted Combat can’t be done for challenge, once the choreographed moves have been learned, it quickly becomes a repeatable routine, with the only challenge being in what the other players do.

Which brings us back to elitism and PUG’s, If there really was any desire for thrill and challenge in PvE, no one would be an elitist that just wants to quickly clear content.

Set, Game, and Match.

There isn’t really a dicussion going on here.
Indeed it’s a Game, Set, Match type of discussion where it seems some active people in this forum here are only here to win eachother over, already in advance have formed an oppinion and not really listening to eachother, only looking to win over another game, set and match. No matter what the cost, and totally forgot the discussion should be about people having different oppinions but are actively looking to come to an agreement or a point of view most of guild wars 2 players agree with and/or feels best.

Come down of your almighty thrones, disaproving any other oppinion then yours in advance, try to look for similarities in oppinions instead of differences, otherwise you’re getting toxic yourself.