Guild Wars 2

Neox.3497:

Wow. Whats going on in your head. Your hate towards raids and players doing them is crazy.

Time and time again I see this person railing against raids, whilst showing pretty emphatically that they have no experience of clearing many (if any) of the encounters.

It seems strange to me that a person would wish to spend so much time flaming against a part of a game which they openly admit to disliking. It only really serves to derail a conversation which people who are interested in that part of the game, or indeed the game at all, are trying to have.

I think some people need to take a good look at themselves and wonder why they spend so much time working up a fervor about something they don’t like/participate in.

For those people that missed this, this topic is about how Elitism in PvE content hurts the game, not about raids, but any content. I have heard that at one time Dungeons were also rife with Elitism, and I would have said the same thing back then, if I played. So, try not to take it too personally about your precious raids, it’s about rampant Elitism in PvE content.

Why some people think this is all about raids, I don’t know, vanity and ego perhaps would be my guess, since the OP is about a level 13 fractal.

Now, most Elitism, specifically PvE elitism, stems from players being deceptive about wanting harder content when in reality they simply want better rewards for themselves, and then make a fuss to the devs that they should have harder content, but what they really want is something they think they are good enough to get, while no one else is, and to ensure this goal, they become total jerks about who they run with, to ensure that the scripted encounters remain trivial to them.

Now, this is not good for a games community, as all it does is divide it up, and build animosity among the player base, which is why I am against it. I believe that an MMO should be about building a community, not splitting it apart, and Elitism does nothing positive for a community on any level.

At best, all I have read is people trying to justify their elitism, that is like someone trying to justify acting like a Jerk, it does not matter what you say, at the end of the discussion, you’re still acting like a jerk.

STIHL.2489:

Now, most Elitism, specifically PvE elitism, stems from players being deceptive about wanting harder content when in reality they simply want better rewards for themselves, and then make a fuss to the devs that they should have harder content, but what they really want is something they think they are good enough to get, while no one else is, and to ensure this goal, they become total jerks about who they run with, to ensure that the scripted encounters remain trivial to them.

Now, this is not good for a games community, …

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

But hey, you did a good job of knocking down the strawman, so kudos to that I guess.

STIHL.2489:

At best, all I have read is people trying to justify their elitism, that is like someone trying to justify acting like a Jerk, it does not matter what you say, at the end of the discussion, you’re still acting like a jerk.

Agreed, totally. Pointing that out and acting the exact same way, but being in a different camp, isn’t the solution. It’s behaving the exact same way but just being on the different side of the table.

Too bad you haven’t responded to my former message too, Stihl.

NikeEU.7690:

STIHL.2489:

Now, most Elitism, specifically PvE elitism, stems from players being deceptive about wanting harder content when in reality they simply want better rewards for themselves, and then make a fuss to the devs that they should have harder content, but what they really want is something they think they are good enough to get, while no one else is, and to ensure this goal, they become total jerks about who they run with, to ensure that the scripted encounters remain trivial to them.

Now, this is not good for a games community, …

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

But hey, you did a good job of knocking down the strawman, so kudos to that I guess.

I’m not even sure if it’s a good knockdown of the strawman, because if the content was truly that easy, then players could bypass the problem with “all welcome” groups.

Bast Bow.2958:

STIHL.2489:

At best, all I have read is people trying to justify their elitism, that is like someone trying to justify acting like a Jerk, it does not matter what you say, at the end of the discussion, you’re still acting like a jerk.

Agreed, totally. Pointing that out and acting the exact same way, but being in a different camp, isn’t the solution. It’s behaving the exact same way but just being on the different side of the table.

Too bad you haven’t responded to my former message too, Stihl.

LOL, that is because there is no discussion going on here, None of the people responding to me came here to be changed, you can see from their first posts to their last, they did not arrive to this topic with an open mind thinking that maybe there was another way then the path they have chosen, they arrived with a single goal, to attack and win.

Sadly, forum battles are more like PvP then PvE, there is no scripted fight here where you can simply memorize the moves and win. Which is why they are loosing.

STIHL.2489:

Bast Bow.2958:

STIHL.2489:

At best, all I have read is people trying to justify their elitism, that is like someone trying to justify acting like a Jerk, it does not matter what you say, at the end of the discussion, you’re still acting like a jerk.

Agreed, totally. Pointing that out and acting the exact same way, but being in a different camp, isn’t the solution. It’s behaving the exact same way but just being on the different side of the table.

Too bad you haven’t responded to my former message too, Stihl.

LOL, that is because there is no discussion going on here, None of the people responding to me came here to be changed, you can see from their first posts to their last, they did not arrive to this topic with an open mind thinking that maybe there was another way then the path they have chosen, they arrived with a single goal, to attack and win.

Sadly, forum battles are more like PvP then PvE, there is no scripted fight here where you can simply memorize the moves and win. Which is why they are loosing.

OK, what is your takeaway point? How would you improve the situation op commented on?

My personal opinion: It’s lamentable that some players kick based on AP for low tier fractals. Ultimately though, it’s no real time lost because they haven’t started yet.

And as long as we’re giving anecdotes, this hasn’t been my personal experience. I have an alternate account, did fractals, and was never kicked based on my low ap score.

As for raids, again, fine as is. Pug groups can set whatever requirements they want – they don’t owe it to you to have them join the group. If you disagree with the requirements then you can start your own group. It’s really easy with the lfg tool.

Takeaway: Some people are jerks, not everyone, but things are fine as is.

Haha.. Stihl that is exactly what I said 2 posts ago. You are repeating what I am saying, and you are the one actually doing that, with some others yes.

Why are you repeating me, just using different words?

And why are you battling too? You’re doing the exact same thing. You’re only here to win, not to discuss and try to come up with a solution which fits most of us. You’re accusing others for being toxic and you behave just the same

Bast Bow.2958:

And why are you battling too?

You’re right, I didn’t come here to have my mind changed, I came here because I used to be an elitist like most of my opponents, maybe a bit worse, but I grew up and realized that games overall are better when they are built to be inclusive, where we can all play together and all of us progress. I found that seeking to make something that includes people, that makes all of us feel good, that deep down, we are all gamers, and we all should be treated legendary, is a more worthy cause then “Mah Speshul Lootz!”

The real question is, why is everyone else here?

STIHL.2489:

Now, most Elitism, specifically PvE elitism, stems from players being deceptive about wanting harder content when in reality they simply want better rewards for themselves, and then make a fuss to the devs that they should have harder content, but what they really want is something they think they are good enough to get, while no one else is, and to ensure this goal, they become total jerks about who they run with, to ensure that the scripted encounters remain trivial to them.

This is what confuses me. If you don’t play raids, why do you possibly think you’re qualified to say the reasons every single raider enjoys raids? I don’t do them for rewards, and I’d be happy to go through them even if I got nothing back. They’re well-designed, challenging, and most importantly, fun as hell in my experience. Just because some players want unique gear for raids doesn’t mean they don’t actually like the content. Plenty of PvPers and WvWers enjoy their game mode, but would be happy to have unique rewards only available for their game mode, but that doesn’t mean they’re only in it for the rewards.

I just can’t understand your mindset right now. Just because you don’t enjoy something (or have never tried it, I don’t know your situation) doesn’t mean that nobody else possibly could. Some people enjoy games with a challenge. Some people love the coordination required and being able to tackle big bosses with nine other players. A very large number of players enjoy doing raids, and you’re trying to make them feel like crap for it just because it’s not your cup of tea.

Some groups have requirements to entering and that’s their right. The content isn’t so easy that you can just take any type of group with any level of experience and win. There is actually an amount of skill that is required to complete the content. However, there are plenty of groups out there accepting newer players, and teaching runs being advertised by experienced guilds. Many of these training runs are being done after the experienced raiders have already gotten their weekly rewards, so how could you possibly say every single raider is trying to keep others from getting their unique gear/titles/whatever?

Mechalibur.9618:

This is what confuses me. If you don’t play raids, why do you possibly think you’re qualified to say the reasons every single raider enjoys raids? I don’t do them for rewards

I’m not trying to be pandering or rude when I say this, but have you missed the last several updates were Anet was vastly changing players participation in various content by simply modifying the rewards?

STIHL.2489:

Mechalibur.9618:

This is what confuses me. If you don’t play raids, why do you possibly think you’re qualified to say the reasons every single raider enjoys raids? I don’t do them for rewards

I’m not trying to be pandering or rude when I say this, but have you missed the last several updates were Anet was vastly changing players participation in various content by simply modifying the rewards?

Yes?

STIHL.2489:

Bast Bow.2958:

And why are you battling too?

You’re right, I didn’t come here to have my mind changed, I came here because I used to be an elitist like most of my opponents, maybe a bit worse, but I grew up and realized that games overall are better when they are built to be inclusive, where we can all play together and all of us progress. I found that seeking to make something that includes people, that makes all of us feel good, that deep down, we are all gamers, and we all should be treated legendary, is a more worthy cause then “Mah Speshul Lootz!”

The real question is, why is everyone else here?

This deserves a bravo because regardless of what side of the fence you’re on, being exclusive only limits YOU OWN gaming experience and options. I’m not really going to point out elitism or anything, but if you only run with the top 10 guys … then your game is only 10 guys big.

STIHL.2489:

Mechalibur.9618:

This is what confuses me. If you don’t play raids, why do you possibly think you’re qualified to say the reasons every single raider enjoys raids? I don’t do them for rewards

I’m not trying to be pandering or rude when I say this, but have you missed the last several updates were Anet was vastly changing players participation in various content by simply modifying the rewards?

Increasing rewards can increase participation in various game modes. I’m not disputing that. It doesn’t mean that literally every single person doing raids is in it for the loot like you’re claiming. WvW rewards were recently increased with the inclusion of the unique armor and reward trakcs. It doesn’t mean every WvWer is only playing that game mode for loot.

PvP and PvE are vastly different game modes, with different incentives behind why people play them.

Obtena.7952:

STIHL.2489:

Bast Bow.2958:

And why are you battling too?

You’re right, I didn’t come here to have my mind changed, I came here because I used to be an elitist like most of my opponents, maybe a bit worse, but I grew up and realized that games overall are better when they are built to be inclusive, where we can all play together and all of us progress. I found that seeking to make something that includes people, that makes all of us feel good, that deep down, we are all gamers, and we all should be treated legendary, is a more worthy cause then “Mah Speshul Lootz!”

The real question is, why is everyone else here?

This deserves a bravo because regardless of what side of the fence you’re on, being exclusive only limits YOU OWN gaming experience and options. I’m not really going to point out elitism or anything, but if you only run with the top 10 guys … then your game is only 10 guys big.

I pretty much only raid now, it’s the only reason i’m still around in a game that’s almost totally awful in every other area, and i can say with almost 100% certainty that i play with more people than you or most other more casual players will in any given week.

I regularly run raids with three guilds each week, which would be 27 people if the teams were always the same, which obviously they aren’t. So you can easily knock that firgure up to 40-50 when it comes to people subbing, new people joining or when we do repeat runs to get other guildies who aren’t in the main squad their kills for the week. I’ll also be invited to help with friends and other guilds on occasion, further increasing the amount of players i’ve played with that week. And let’s not even bother thinking about people i pug with just for fun, or when i join training runs to help people out when i’m bored.

And most of these players will be either typing in chat or on TS where we can have conversations, sometimes even becoming real friends in the process rather than just people i raid with. I think that easily beats out running in a zerg of nameless autoattackers or running the odd dungeon with four other people who almost never speak.

My game is larger, and far more meaningful for raids having come into existence.

HwaRyun.1807:

Obtena.7952:

STIHL.2489:

Bast Bow.2958:

And why are you battling too?

You’re right, I didn’t come here to have my mind changed, I came here because I used to be an elitist like most of my opponents, maybe a bit worse, but I grew up and realized that games overall are better when they are built to be inclusive, where we can all play together and all of us progress. I found that seeking to make something that includes people, that makes all of us feel good, that deep down, we are all gamers, and we all should be treated legendary, is a more worthy cause then “Mah Speshul Lootz!”

The real question is, why is everyone else here?

This deserves a bravo because regardless of what side of the fence you’re on, being exclusive only limits YOU OWN gaming experience and options. I’m not really going to point out elitism or anything, but if you only run with the top 10 guys … then your game is only 10 guys big.

I pretty much only raid now, it’s the only reason i’m still around in a game that’s almost totally awful in every other area, and i can say with almost 100% certainty that i play with more people than you or most other more casual players will in any given week.

I regularly run raids with three guilds each week, which would be 27 people if the teams were always the same, which obviously they aren’t. So you can easily knock that firgure up to 40-50 when it comes to people subbing, new people joining or when we do repeat runs to get other guildies who aren’t in the main squad their kills for the week. I’ll also be invited to help with friends and other guilds on occasion, further increasing the amount of players i’ve played with that week. And let’s not even bother thinking about people i pug with just for fun, or when i join training runs to help people out when i’m bored.

And most of these players will be either typing in chat or on TS where we can have conversations, sometimes even becoming real friends in the process rather than just people i raid with. I think that easily beats out running in a zerg of nameless autoattackers or running the odd dungeon with four other people who almost never speak.

My game is larger, and far more meaningful for raids having come into existence.

Lets take a moment to look at this, this is a great example of inclusive vs exclusive gaming.

You say you interact with around 40 – 50 people in a week, I would bet, most of them are the same people, and then a few random pugs. So, your circle is still this 40 – 50 people, that you run raids with. Ok, that’s a nice circle of people doing exclusionary content.

Lets put that against Inclusion Driven content. The last Jormag I did, had more then 40 people in, and during that fight, several of us were making pop culture jokes, and that was a single daily world boss. I then a guild mate invited me to SW, because a VW just started, and it was a different 40 – 60 people there, where some of us explained the game mechanics before we went in, we encouraged each other on to victory, and it was a grand feeling of working as a whole, among a gaming population.

Now, I get that some people may not like that, but to me, that is really what an MMO is about, it’s the population coming together to enjoy the game, hundreds of people being able to gather and play together, that is the whole idea of what puts the Massive into MassiveMultiplayerOnline game. Otherwise, you may as well just play any old online game. There is no shortage of them.

But the whole idea of an Massive Multiplayer Online game, is that we can all have our various things we enjoy in the game, and we can all gather be inclusive, and just work a team. I get some people who have too much elitism think that a world boss is just people pressing 1, after all, if they think they are too good to be part of the filthy casuals game mode, that is what they see, but when you are among them, it’s quite amazing, I see a bunch of strangers, just random community people gathering and working together, they raise each other, heal each other, attack a common enemy, they teach the mechanics mid fight, they help and assist each other, assist each other in gaining objectives, and they have pointless friendly banter while we are doing it, and they do it freely, they do it because it is fun for them. It’s a beautiful thing. No need for anyone to get on their high horse and pass judgment, demand a gear check, or try to boss them around, or kick them from the event because they are screwing up, they add what they can add, and you know what, it’s enough.

My gaming world is full of hundreds of people daily that I run with, that I share goals and objectives with, that help me and I help them. It’s like real life, on a fantastic larger then life setting. I am meeting new and wonderful people all the time. Every time I log in, day or night, I get to meet new people, most of them pretty nice. I don’t need to set a schedule, I can play around my real world responsibilities, just log in any time, day, night, whatever, and know that there are people out there willing and wanting to play with me. That’s a great feeling all things said and done.

Same idea as if I was going grocery shopping and helped someone in the grocery store, we don’t need to get on team speak, and chat and opt to meet up again, just a simple thanks, and we move on with our lives, and in an MMO, that is a wonderful thing as well, someone helps me, I help someone else, we work together or play if forward, and maybe… just maybe.. we might bump into each other again.

I play a game where I can depend on random strangers to help me, and they can depend on me to help them, when the the situation arises. That’s a beautiful thing, that is the wonderment of building an inclusive game, where it restores your feelings that people are in fact decent, helpful, kind, wonderful people and we are all here to have fun.

And that is just some random world bosses, that’s not including the Open Pug Fractals I do, or the random Dungeon, or WvW, or anything else. On top of that, I am in 5 guilds, so I have no shortage of people to talk with.

My Game World is truly Massive, It’s not a hundred people that I interact and play with, It’s thousands of people, and I want to see That World Grow.

I could never get seriously into raids because of elitism, I managed to complete both Wings 1&2 but each time I just login, people just up the insights required by 6 each weeks and other dumb requirements, like how the hell am I supposed to do?
I don’t have time to complete both wings every weeks, and guilds would kick me a lot because of how often I’m switching games this year…

Amineo.8951:

I could never get seriously into raids because of elitism, I managed to complete both Wings 1&2 but each time I just login, people just up the insights required by 6 each weeks and other dumb requirements, like how the hell am I supposed to do?

Insight requirement is not elitism.

There are enough groups without requirements clearing both wings regularly and take pugs with them. Just be patient and wait in the LFG, many of those offers are popping up over time.
Choose these groups and after certain weeks you will have 30+ LI and most other groups with requirements will take you with them too.

Amineo.8951:

I don’t have time to complete both wings every weeks, and guilds would kick me a lot because of how often I’m switching games this year…

Maybe raids aren’t for you. Raids weren’t meant to be pugged, it is possible to do so but they weren’t developed for it.

Vinceman.4572:

Amineo.8951:

I could never get seriously into raids because of elitism, I managed to complete both Wings 1&2 but each time I just login, people just up the insights required by 6 each weeks and other dumb requirements, like how the hell am I supposed to do?
I don’t have time to complete both wings every weeks, and guilds would kick me a lot because of how often I’m switching games this year…

Insight requirement is not elitism.

There are enough groups without requirements clearing both wings regularly and take pugs with them. Just be patient and wait in the LFG, many of those offers are popping up over time.

For me it is, because these tools are for legendary crafting and not real awards…

Amineo.8951:

For me it is, because these tools are for legendary crafting and not real awards…

If you have to think like this, it’s your own problem.

Vinceman.4572:

Amineo.8951:

For me it is, because these tools are for legendary crafting and not real awards…

If you have to think like this, it’s your own problem.

Yeah, that’s why I should stop playing this game.