Guild Wars 2

Think for yourself a bit colesy

Personally I’m still not convinced about the Ranger, but maybe I’m just looking at it too critically, expecting it to far exceed what I have already experienced with a different class in it’s party slot, and as such am left disappointed. The Engineer however I always thought pretty highly of, but I kind of just forgot about it after grenade kit got that -33% damage nerf.

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

Think for yourself a bit colesy

Personally I’m still not convinced about the Ranger, but maybe I’m just looking at it too critically, expecting it to far exceed what I have already experienced with a different class in it’s party slot, and as such am left disappointed. The Engineer however I always thought pretty highly of, but I kind of just forgot about it after grenade kit got that -33% damage nerf.

At this point I’d just say it’s a matter of preference, but best party compo can also vary depending on the dungeons. I played ranger, it doesn’t feel like it’s bringing the group down, I just think elementalists bring more while not suffering from the very clunky sword mechanics, sword mechanics are not only a problem for dodges – you can learn to adjust to its rhythm – it’s also a problem on any boss you wouldn’t want to “push” in melee. Sword has no concept of “max melee range” which can be incredibly annoying at times and would absolutely not work on some boss fights like the grawl champion in fotm, requiring the use of the less dpsy greatsword or even maybe swapping to longbow at max range.

Nikaido you should go and review the claims Guang has made here and then you’ll understand why I and some others ridicule him. He never once made the claim “Hey engineers do fine DPS and they can be in your dungeon class rotation without slowing anything down”. The claim was more along the lines of “ENGINEER MAX DEEPS. WARRIORS SUX. IDIOTS.”

And therein lies part of the issue we have when discussing these ideas, because people rarely differentiate at the outset between “fastest possible, world-record-setting team comp” and “acceptable team comp for regular dungeon runs”.

I mean, go ahead and take your engy-based group through a whole path faster than it would be possible without one. If you manage to do that, I’ll be the first to congratulate you. Otherwise, all you’re proving is that they’re an acceptable class for the fifth slot. Which isn’t really a stunning revelation.

EDIT: Case in point, people saying bringing more than 1 warrior is “a bad idea” or “old news”. Are you setting records, or just getting through the a whole path in an acceptable timeframe? The conversation is drastically different depending on the context. Five necros in Sentinel’s gear is a bad idea. Bringing more than one warrior is not.

TBH, I think that was why Guang was thinking engineers are OP. If grenades wasn’t nerfed in PvE by 33%, plus if kit-refine wasn’t reworked fully to lose the second grenade barrage, you’d be seeing a 25 vuln stack directly at the start of combat, as well as starting that with either +dmg modifiers from the runes embedded in the kit. Not to mention the fact that you’d be doing it per ten to twenty second window.

I’ll have to ask you to highlight where it was said that engi would bring EEXXXXTRRREEEEM 30x faster runs on the very first post you ridiculed :

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

This thread is exactly what happens when casuals try to theorycraft about things like DPS.

Also, engineer DPS is fine, it’s about on par with ranger + pet. It’s just not as obvious because about 20% of it is in the form of bleed damage. They also do just* fine* in an organized group comp, their ability to solo-stack might and vuln for the entire party means you can go full DPS on everything else. Case in point, a single grenade engie stacks the same amount of might kitten warriors with FGJ and as much vuln as 3 warriors with A/M and OMM, and deals about equivalent DPS as any of those warriors.

They also have a ton of group healing, condition removal, and snares by default, which may not always be necessary but it certainly doesn’t hurt. Considering how many people bring guardians just for PoV, and considering that engies can remove conditions faster and more often (albeit without the convert, which honestly isn’t that good), I’m surprised more people don’t demand engies for fractals and Arah and whatnot.

I suspect it’s because most engies are just bad.

too bad you don’t have any empirical data to back those claims cause they sure would help your ridiculous arguments

The main claim in that very post was that you don’t need to focus much vuln on the other party members which is true. You can drop most of the vuln stacking when you bring an engi in. The other claims was that engi also provide decent utilities while giving enough dps and soloing most of the vuln, which is also true.

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

Think for yourself a bit colesy

Personally I’m still not convinced about the Ranger, but maybe I’m just looking at it too critically, expecting it to far exceed what I have already experienced with a different class in it’s party slot, and as such am left disappointed. The Engineer however I always thought pretty highly of, but I kind of just forgot about it after grenade kit got that -33% damage nerf.

To be honest I wasn’t sure about ranger even after seeing the video, but then I looked up frost spirit, and 70% chance of inflicting 10%+ damage is nuts. That, on top of my smothering sigil, night sigil and oil in CoF p1 is a 40%+ damage increase altogether, that’s insane.

Plus it made sense what Brazil said whn he pointed out his frost spirit rarely got hit considering whenever I’ve run CoE on my mesmer, my phantasms seem to linger for quite a long time in alpha fights.

The whole ranger thing just opened my eyes I think, I was stuck down the war/guard/mes view, accepted LH eles and thieves and now I know that even rangers and engineers are playable, and that hopefully with more testing it will e demonstrated necromancers are playable too. It’s a massive plus if all classes are strong in dungeons because then you can take basically any character you want whenever you want to play one as long as you’re appropriately geared, know the encounters and when to dodge, and know your class.

The way things are now, warriors aren’t the max DPS but they’re the safest class to stack with since they’re so forgiving and have good DPS anyway.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

This is a really stupid thread.

1) Ranger sword is one of the fastest attacks in the game. It hits a full chain approximately every 1.8 seconds, which means it hits at the same speed as the warrior’s axe chain. By comparison, a warrior’s greatsword chain takes 2.5s, which means the ranger attacks almost as fast as a greatsword warrior does with quickness on.

2) Rangers have immensely high crit rate by default. Spotter is now +150 precision to the entire party, which is worth 7% crit chance, and they maintain fury more easily than any other class. A ranger with Spotter, 30 in Skirmishing, and full zerker armor with Ruby Orbs will have a crit chance of 84.7%. Add in the Warrior’s Banner of Discipline and a consumable that gives +100 precision, and Sigil of Accuracy, and you have a crit chance over 100%. The guardian is the only other class that can achieve those numbers.

3) Rangers have a pet, which also contributes DPS. I see no indication of pet damage measurements in this post, but a pet typically contributes between 1-2k DPS. In terms of total damage, a totally decked out ranger (might, fury, vulnerability, banners, consumable, Spotter, Empower Allies) hits for over 10k DPS once you include the pet’s damage. That is almost identical to the guardian’s DPS and higher than the warrior’s DPS, which is about 9.6k.

tl;dr rangers are actually one of the strongest classes in the game. If there is a significant weakness on their part, it is the awkward movement on the sword chain. Then again, without that rooting effect, the ranger would insanely overpowered. That’s not hyperbole. The ranger does obscene amounts of damage and provide extremely strong group buffs that stack with the ones the warrior provides. Couple that with a guardian providing defensive buffs and an engineer stacking conditions and you have a pretty strong holy quadrinity.

On the basis of group buffs, DPS potential, and overall usefulness, at least in PvE, from best to worst:

Engineer
Guardian
Ranger
Warrior
Mesmer
Elementalist
Thief
Necromancer

Note how high ranger is on that list.

I believe Broadicea was referencing this post; it was Guangs first post. Though I do believe that he’s just having a hard time apologizing.

That comment was a continuation of the conversation that’s been ongoing for several weeks. If I recall correctly the most excessive claims came from some other thread a while back where he listed the classes in order of general PvE utility.

Edit: ^^^^That one.

But ok, to show I can do it, if it was his idea originally that Rangers should be brought along, he was right.

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Dub.1273:

Cause the gains aren’t marginal if used to it’s full potential.

Waiting to see it at the full potential then. With baited breath. Don’t disappoint.

At least you don’t have to wait too long.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZQfhOMuOP4&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Has only been two ele’s. Would have instantly brought him to phase 3 if we used three.

It’s the same thread, there’s also this:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

That’s because engineers are downright broken in their current state. I don’t really see how this is even up for dispute. Warriors are nice for support (banners are really really good) but none of that support stacks (except Empower Allies) so stacking multiple warriors is like buying 20 cans of wax to buff up your beat-up old minivan; you can polish it all you want but you’re not going to get any better results after the first can and the guy with the brand new sports car will still look better.

He was proven (and admitted) that he was wrong about Empower Allies. I went and skimmed the thread but I don’t see any claims that are as exaggerated as you claim.

Here’s the thread: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Ranger-DPS-in-Dungeons/first

That list doesn’t sound all that ridiculous when you don’t put words in his mouth and read the sentence that precedes the list. It’s not a “Best DPS to lowest dps” list. It balances out overall usefulness and what you can bring to a party between potential group buff (might, vuln stack), overall dps, utility etc. Pugging on engi with pugs that aren’t really well built can be illuminating. I don’t think I ever had as much of a blast joining random meh pug compositions with a class before trying engineer. It’s a very well balanced class and it shows.

@ Dub

gg, let me guess, you used lightning flash.

What does “overall usefulness” mean if not “you are better with this class than without”? “Best class for carrying pugs” is a totally different claim. Honestly, would LOD take

Engineer
Guardian
Ranger
Warrior
Mesmer

And consider that the absolute best party comp for what most of us in this forum do, try to run dungeons as efficiently as possible?

Dub.1273:

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Dub.1273:

Cause the gains aren’t marginal if used to it’s full potential.

Waiting to see it at the full potential then. With baited breath. Don’t disappoint.

At least you don’t have to wait too long.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZQfhOMuOP4&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Has only been two ele’s. Would have instantly brought him to phase 3 if we used three.

Is it sad that even with that little information I think I have a pretty good idea of whats going on there?

That said, if you want to release the whole video to the public I would be a lot more impressed.

I don’t think the list was meant to be read as in “take one of each from top to fifth” but whatever. And I’m not really speaking in the name of LOD so don’t take my words for the final guild word. There are also two different standards in what we recommend for the casual or teaching runs within the guild and what we’re willing to experiment with, with other teams.

Can your group stack 25 might, Fury and 25 Vuln? If so, it doesn’t particularly matter what professions you took to get there. From those basics you start stacking unique buffs, banners, empower allies, frost spirit, spotter etc. That’s basically it for general dungeoneering.

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

That said, if you want to release the whole video to the public I would be a lot more impressed.

The whole video is too embarrassing

We will do better and release then, even though this is currently the fastest lupicus kill. All about bad RNG and haviz having a funny 3-4 second lag.

swiftpaw.6397:

Syn Sity.5826:

swiftpaw.6397:

Dempsey doesn’t mind me taking ele, he just grumbles about it :P

Doesn’t that say enough…?

Not really. He may not agree with me on some things but that is no cause for hostilities. Sure he didn’t like me at first but I never let it get to me. Turns out he’s a nice guy.

Funny thing is; we (DnT) all have ele’s (most are full ascended/scholar runes) and are always open to anyone bringing them. Our latest group compositions for our full dungeon tour cycles usually consists of 1-2 thieves, 1-2 wars, 1 ele, a mesmer occassionally, and a guardian. Our goals consist of firefields for stacking might and maintaining vul. If we accomplish that, our runs are perfectly fast and that is good enough for us. We will, however, optimize groups when going for speed clear records, etc, which in-turn will make our composition vary based on encounters, time to setup pulls and buffs, etc. There are some great things Ele’s can do (LOS stack to firery greatsword, firery greatsword and/or icebow burst down physical objects), but overall DPS seems to be quite comprable elsewise and evolved destroyer in particular seems to run about the same for us whether we bring more ele’s, more thieves, or more wars; but I don’t think many of our groups have really tried to setup and all out burst this guy down.

Next step, test this group composition in proper dungeon content, not a boss that serves no purpose than as a HP sponge for dps tests.

Also, I’m just going to say it outright:

I’m sorry Guang for doubting you. If you’ve seen me in other parts of the forum being a scumbag, it’s because I’m arguing withh people who are wrong, and in this case if I was hostile to you it’s because, again, I thought you were wrong – yet you deserved better.

I think it’s like 3rd time when people are accusing Guang for being a fairy teller. It’s time you learn the power of the spreadsheet.

haviz.1340:

I think it’s like 3rd time when people are accusing Guang for being a fairy teller. It’s time you learn the power of the spreadsheet.

I’m sorry to break your bubble, Haviz.
First you have to build credibility then we proceed from there. I don’t think people are not that gullible to waste their time chasing rainbow if anyone just throwing any numbers out there. You think that they would take your words or Weth’s words if you guys haven’t established your credibility first?

So now Guang build a bit of credibility but if he keeps throwing BS like “I don’t need to explain to you” then I would treat him like a lucky lottery winner or a dead wall clock.
Hey man, even in real life, those guys want to make name for themselves by publish scientific papers would reveal enough information so those in the know, knowing what that guy talking about. But it has patent implication & big bucks. Here? give me a BREAK.

No, you don’t need to build credibility.

If you’re such a failure of a rational person so as to not inspect the numbers and claims due to laziness while making decisions based on popularity or reputation, it’s your own shortcoming.

This forum is full of blowhards who behave like jacksasses, mistreat people under the veil of anonymity because they find their performance entitles them to the dignified treatment they so gladly deny others, and when someone not from the circle jerk comes in, they just start trashtalking.

You can say you don’t believe him. You can say some of his claims sound unreasonable. But you do not get to dismiss him without making the effort to look at his numbers and test what he’s actually saying.

You give everybody a chance to present their argument, instead of just listening to the forum personalities you’re familiar with.

And expect his claims about guardians to be vindicated as well.

This thread has everyone who doubted guanglai and you’re all putting each other down for doubting guanglai. And honestly who gives a kitten what some guy said. Shouldn’t the one who gets credit be the one who tested/proved a theory, not the one who acted like we were a bunch of morons for not thinking the way he did (it really was more his stubborness than our own). I think you’re all forgetting some classic guanglai quotes like complaining about how we always say “OMG LOOK AT ALL DA BIG NUMBAS FROM 100B DPSDPSDPS $$$$” and telling us that providing us video evidence is futile because we’re all too stupid and still won’t believe him like has happened in the past… That guy is seriously just unlikeable and I think that’s the main reason no one believed him and honestly I still don’t. Saying engineer is the most broken class in the game and is number one in overall pve effectiveness makes me think that maybe I am just missing something altogether.. I’ve certainly been wrong before I guess.

@ Zenith,
Why not? I just dismissed your post and point you to here and let you figure it out yourself.

Maybe I was reading the wrong thread but I seem to recall guanglai was the one being close minded and insulting towards everyone else.. If you accidentally remembered him as a really nice and tolerant person I direct you to this thread.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Stop-complaining-about-dungeon-rewards

^He is. That’s why I think he has some character defects.
Edit: That’s the wrong thread. He probably wanted to impress somebody by practicing trolling. There are plenty of serious discussion threads which he insulted everybody not believing in him.

How is “stop being bad” an insult?

I am practicing Guang & Zenith ideas to let you guys find all the sources yourself.

That was simply an example of the kind of person he is. But I guess no one really gives a kitten about how crappy someone’s personality is on this game eh

I do. I don’t want to hang around BS people, in game or in life.

SkyChef.5432:

I do. I don’t want to hang around BS people, in game or in life.

Better not look in the mirror then. God, you’d be kitten ed.

Syn Sity.5826:

That was simply an example of the kind of person he is. But I guess no one really gives a kitten about how crappy someone’s personality is on this game eh

I don’t like tone arguments but it probably would not have helped Galileo if he just barged into the church and said “UGH YOU’RE ALL IDIOTS I DON’T HAVE TO PROVE CRAP JUST LOOK AT MY SPREADSHEETS IF YOU DON’T BELIEVE THE HELIOCENTRIC MODEL. HURRR THE SCRIPTURE DICTATES GEOCENTRISM HURR I’M AN ECUMENICAL MORON WHO DOESN’T KNOW ANYTHING”

spoj.9672:

Dub.1273:

Can someone tell me a good berserker build for a necromancer?

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fQAQRBIhhu1IjW6elmxGDfCA6Ru46cMjjXm+w6A-jAyAYrBRTQgpMgUBgkXR0YLuFRjVXjpcJiqBA-e

Other popular build is 30/10/0/0/30. But as far as I can tell the extra crit damage doesnt make up for the lack of precision and target the weak. And seeing as that build usually involves sitting in DS using life blast its no good for dps. Also strength of undeath doesnt give a 5% boost, its just 90 power.

If we as necros get an outside source for maxed might, you can drop blood is power for well of corruption for additional fairly decent damage boost.

Zenith.7301:

SkyChef.5432:

I do. I don’t want to hang around BS people, in game or in life.

Better not look in the mirror then. God, you’d be kitten ed.

Lucky me. I didn’t see you there.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

People are sheep. P3 is probably the hardest and longest Arah path, people just don’t realize it because they never do the others.

No, I only mess around with spreadsheets. I thought you guys knew that. My calculations say that Arah P3 is easiest though.

Doesn’t this tell enough?

SkyChef.5432:

Zenith.7301:

SkyChef.5432:

I do. I don’t want to hang around BS people, in game or in life.

Better not look in the mirror then. God, you’d be kitten ed.

Lucky me. I didn’t see you there.

It’s a mirror. Wiki it.

Zenith.7301:

SkyChef.5432:

Zenith.7301:

SkyChef.5432:

I do. I don’t want to hang around BS people, in game or in life.

Better not look in the mirror then. God, you’d be kitten ed.

Lucky me. I didn’t see you there.

It’s a mirror. Wiki it.

I know you are, you said you are, but what am I!

@Swifty

Haha.

Edited: Since you started it, here is my reply if I’m the intended receiver (but I’m not going to decode it for him)

WW91IGFyZSBub3Qh

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Dub.1273:

Cause the gains aren’t marginal if used to it’s full potential.

Waiting to see it at the full potential then. With baited breath. Don’t disappoint.

For my next trick, I will shave off a tenth of a second from CoF P1!

Syn Sity.5826:

But I guess no one really gives a kitten about how crappy someone’s personality is on this game eh

You should know better than to use that type of argument in a thread I started.

Nikaido.3457:

snip

Impressive, I was thinking with myself one of these days that many things Guang was once mocked for saying are now coming to be accepted by a good number of people.

In the old days of the almighty AH anchor groups he was one of the first I saw saying that AH builds or anchor in general were mostly useless if your group knew the encounters, I remember the initial reaction was something like:
“You need an anchor everywhere” then some months later “You need an anchor for high level content” and finally “Anchor isn’t needed”.

Then there was the ranger and engineer viability versus warrior stacking and I’m sure there is more as I was never that active in the other forum.

TL;DR Guang is pretty cool guy.

From what I know guang jumped into that troll ranger dps thread started by obal (the one with banner dps tests) and called everyone stupid and that is what started the kittenstorm. In other words, this is all an emotional problem and what the claims of each class people say won’t do much until everyone calms down.

Marauding Scum.6728:

In the old days of the almighty AH anchor groups he was one of the first I saw saying that AH builds or anchor in general were mostly useless if your group knew the encounters, I remember the initial reaction was something like:
“You need an anchor everywhere” then some months later “You need an anchor for high level content” and finally “Anchor isn’t needed”.

Then there was the ranger and engineer viability versus warrior stacking and I’m sure there is more as I was never that active in the other forum.

TL;DR Guang is pretty cool guy.

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/70142-after-100s-of-hours-my-final-guardian-build/page__st__300
Pretty much the thread where it all started and some good archaeology to show the paradigm shift that follows from laughing to somewhat adopting his thought process.

Wait is this how this works now!?

Okay umm triple/quadruple Ele teams are the shiz!
Ranger will be in the new meta!
Necro’s aren’t as bad as everyone thinks and can easily replace extra Warriors!
Thief Venom Sharing is OP!
Guardian on Fiery Greatsword does the most damage!

If at least one of these turns out to be true you must worship me you degenerate players! NOW GO PROVE MY WILD CLAIMS!

Dolan.3071:

Wait is this how this works now!?

Okay umm triple/quadruple Ele teams are the shiz!
Ranger will be in the new meta!
Necro’s aren’t as bad as everyone thinks and can easily replace extra Warriors!
Thief Venom Sharing is OP!
Guardian on Fiery Greatsword does the most damage!

If at least one of these turns out to be true you must worship me you degenerate players! NOW GO PROVE MY WILD CLAIMS!

Is Guang willing to prevent bad builds, but not able?
Then he is not knowledgeable.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh the bad builds?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him Guang?

swiftpaw.6397:

Dolan.3071:

Wait is this how this works now!?

Okay umm triple/quadruple Ele teams are the shiz!
Ranger will be in the new meta!
Necro’s aren’t as bad as everyone thinks and can easily replace extra Warriors!
Thief Venom Sharing is OP!
Guardian on Fiery Greatsword does the most damage!

If at least one of these turns out to be true you must worship me you degenerate players! NOW GO PROVE MY WILD CLAIMS!

Is Guang willing to prevent bad builds, but not able?
Then he is not knowledgeable.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh the bad builds?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him Guang?

omfg

<3 your posts

I don’t think the fact that I am a total kitten was ever up for debate. If that’s the only objection you have with me I can save you some time right now. It’s true.

EDIT: Anet word filters plz

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

I don’t think the fact that I am a total kitten was ever up for debate. If that’s the only objection you have with me I can save you some time right now. It’s true.

EDIT: Anet word filters plz

So since the conversation steered towards our interpretation of claims being made, would you be willing to plainly state your idea of the optimal group comp for speedclearing dungeons?

3 guardians 1 warrior 1 engineer.

Broadicea.8294:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

I don’t think the fact that I am a total kitten was ever up for debate. If that’s the only objection you have with me I can save you some time right now. It’s true.

EDIT: Anet word filters plz

So since the conversation steered towards our interpretation of claims being made, would you be willing to plainly state your idea of the optimal group comp for speedclearing dungeons?

Warrior, ranger, engineer, last two slots optional. I think I’ve been saying that for a while.

Personally I think W/R/En/G/M, with the mesmer being the most flexible of the five, tends to be a good all around combo but there are different classes that are good for different situations. Eles blow up the First Flame thing in COF2 outrageously fast, mesmer sucks for Arah P1 entities, rangers suck for Brie, etc.

Honestly if there is a “bad” class in this game it is probably the necromancer. I am open to being proven wrong on that point, though.

Dub.1273:

3 guardians 1 warrior 1 engineer.

That also works. Ranger would be nice though.