Guild Wars 2

Currently Engineers are basically the better versions of Thieves in PvE.

1: Engineer DPS >> Thief
Power and Condition Engineers have significantly more DPS than their Thief counterparts. Even with the the elite daredevil spec, engie dps is still waaaaaay better.

2: Engineer Stealth < Thief Stealth
With the introduction of the stealth gyro, engineers are pretty much decent enough to stealth through content in dungeons and fractals.

3: Engineer soft CC >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thief soft CC.
A condition pistol pistol Engineer has a crap ton of cripple, chill and immobilize -
pistol 5, nades 4, bomb 5, mortar 3 or supple crate net turret.
Thief on the other hand has a super expensive immobilize(sword 2) that is unrealistic to upkeep and if the current meta of sword/pistol, dagger/dagger you can’t even chain cripple and immobilize together. Engies also currently has a crap ton of blinds in nades 3, bomb 4 and mortar 4.

4: Thief mobility >> Engineer mobility.
Ok this one thief wins but in the current dungeons and fractals, extreme mobility is pretty useless in boss fights.(thief extreme mobility was also pretty useless on the vale guardian)

5: Thief hard CC >= Engineer hard CC
Ok so thieves have an unlimited amount of hard CC so they win but Engineers also have a crap ton of hard CC as well, and when you factor in the fact that you have 4 other teammates who can also provide some form of hard CC, you can basically break defiance on demand with Engineers as well. So this advantage that thief has is currently useless in the current dungeons/fractals. If you look at the vale guardian fight, engineers were also pretty decent at breaking the break bar.

6: Thief blast finishers = Engineer blast finisher(out of combat). Ok so you need to blast stealth, if there is 1 other team mate helping you, you will get 15seconds of stealth regardless.

7:Engineer blast finishers >> Thief blast fnishers (in combat). Engineers dps rotations include alot of fire fields and blast finishers, if you blast with a thief in combat, that is a dps loss.

TL:DR there is absolutely no reason to bring thieves over engineers with the current combat/puzzle mechanics.

It has been this way for a very long time i’m not sure what the big deal is, I do think sinister engi needs to be nerfed as it is way too easy to play. I think elixir u traited is probably the best utility skill in the game; Quickness, 15 seconds wall, 2 condi cleanses, stunbreak, 7 long stacks of might and you can already maintain 25 stacks of might really easily on engi.
Thief has always been a useless class though engineer has always been able to do everything that a thief can do, can path mobs just as efficient kitten with toss elixir u. Maybe in a year or so people will realize how bad aegis is and realize guardian isn’t that great either outside of really terrible groups, but hey this is gw2 le metabattle tells me how to play the game and I obey.

Edit: im curious now what you think thief has ever been able to offer a group, outside of shadow refuge for pathing mobs on a really long duration which is completely unnecessary. Black powder is really terrible because no where in the game actually needs that much on demand stealth, most skips can be done within one blast, maybe if invigorating precision was toned down and made into a group but it would be really good but necro already does that and it’s still terrible too. If your a barbie endgamer that’s farming your daily dungeons everyday maybe thief matters to you because it’s safe, efficient, less room for error and maybe that’s why people still play guardian, but as a person that has played both of these classes I can say I feel like i’m just useless on them and they don’t offer as much as the other options available.

Personally I still believe Thief is way above what people think of it right now. I don’t mind having an Engineer in the party but lets face it instant blinds, smoke fields, blasts, unlimited cc, dps, boon removal and ability to skip ahead to activate the endless monologues in dungeons should not be so easily discarded. And yes Engi can provide all but not as fast as Thief (CM, TA, Arah).
HoT is not out just yet :P !

pranker.3748:

Personally I still believe Thief is way above what people think of it right now. I don’t mind having an Engineer in the party but lets face it instant blinds, smoke fields, blasts, unlimited cc, dps, boon removal and ability to skip ahead to activate the endless monologues in dungeons should not be so easily discarded. And yes Engi can provide all but not as fast as Thief (CM, TA, Arah).
HoT is not out just yet :P !

The marked parts can be done by an engineer as good as by a thief or even better.

Dungeon is dead anyway… Please buff Thief T.T

Well the thing is in Fractals Engineer shines even brighter than Thieves compared to dungeons because most of the content cant be skipped and boss fights tends to last longer so DPS becomes more important.

Yeah, nothing new. IB nerf just made it more visible. I also believe engi>ele by the way.

Welcome to late 2013?

I think Thieves are better in pubs than Engineers, though. Thief stealth is far more forgiving, and a Thief can solo stealth an entire party through very long skip segments without the party’s contribution and even without their understanding beyond “don’t walk out of SR”. Thief blinds are also a lot more accessible for clearing trash compared to Engineers, especially if your group isn’t quick about killing the mobs and you need more blind uptime.

One other thing I don’t think was covered in the OP, though, is pathing mobs like the oozes in Arah p1 or bandits in CM. You really cannot do that with an Engineer because the Stealth Gyro will just aggro everything and you can’t blast smoke fields without aggroing the mobs. That’s a pretty niche use-case that I think will keep Thief relevant in certain contexts.

I also think that the delay on Smoke Bomb for Engineer may cause it to not be a great fit for speed clears. Those few seconds add up, and Thief Black Powder is a pretty critical component (just watch a few [SC] CM records).

Also I think for some records, like Arah p2 on the run to Alphard, having Thief’s extreme mobility totally outweighs any gains you might have gotten from Engineer otherwise.

Yeah duh. The diference is the learning curve of thief is better than “the piano maestro of engie” and evades.
Havent tried the specs of engie or thief so see what changes after hot.
Rising comment about pug scenario too

Ryn.6459:

Yeah, nothing new. IB just nerf just made it more visible. I also believe engi>ele by the way.

This and the vale guardian fight, it doesn’t look good for thieves if they don’t get significant buffs.

Fear not, I am sure some raid will need thief mobility :P

EcoRI.9273:

Even with the the elite daredevil spec, engie dps is still waaaaaay better.

Simple question: what do you think by how much dardevil dps will be increased over thief (in %)?

EcoRI.9273:

Well the thing is in Fractals Engineer shines even brighter than Thieves compared to dungeons because most of the content cant be skipped and boss fights tends to last longer so DPS becomes more important.

I mean for the triggering monologue in dungeons… it’s true that thief can move faster and cut the waiting time. but not so much in fractal, that’s why thief needs buff XD

This is nothing new.

Lendruil.9061:

pranker.3748:

Personally I still believe Thief is way above what people think of it right now. I don’t mind having an Engineer in the party but lets face it instant blinds, smoke fields, blasts, unlimited cc, dps, boon removal and ability to skip ahead to activate the endless monologues in dungeons should not be so easily discarded. And yes Engi can provide all but not as fast as Thief (CM, TA, Arah).
HoT is not out just yet :P !

The marked parts can be done by an engineer as good as by a thief or even better.

Engi can’t outrun thief, period. Unless you’re one of those l2p issue people who rely on toy axes then sure you can outrun everyone with super speed.
You can’t replace Thief in CM and Arah without being slower.
Engi is better everywhere else unless you aim for a record then Thief mobility might still be better in few places.

Amicable Pugs.4503:

Lendruil.9061:

pranker.3748:

Personally I still believe Thief is way above what people think of it right now. I don’t mind having an Engineer in the party but lets face it instant blinds, smoke fields, blasts, unlimited cc, dps, boon removal and ability to skip ahead to activate the endless monologues in dungeons should not be so easily discarded. And yes Engi can provide all but not as fast as Thief (CM, TA, Arah).
HoT is not out just yet :P !

The marked parts can be done by an engineer as good as by a thief or even better.

Engi can’t outrun thief, period. Unless you’re one of those l2p issue people who rely on toy axes then sure you can outrun everyone with super speed.
You can’t replace Thief in CM and Arah without being slower.
Engi is better everywhere else unless you aim for a record then Thief mobility might still be better in few places.

I didn’t highlight the mobility part.

Lendruil.9061:

Amicable Pugs.4503:

Lendruil.9061:

pranker.3748:

Personally I still believe Thief is way above what people think of it right now. I don’t mind having an Engineer in the party but lets face it instant blinds, smoke fields, blasts, unlimited cc, dps, boon removal and ability to skip ahead to activate the endless monologues in dungeons should not be so easily discarded. And yes Engi can provide all but not as fast as Thief (CM, TA, Arah).
HoT is not out just yet :P !

The marked parts can be done by an engineer as good as by a thief or even better.

Engi can’t outrun thief, period. Unless you’re one of those l2p issue people who rely on toy axes then sure you can outrun everyone with super speed.
You can’t replace Thief in CM and Arah without being slower.
Engi is better everywhere else unless you aim for a record then Thief mobility might still be better in few places.

I didn’t highlight the mobility part.

Oops xD

A thief can Remove D in seconds on command during anypart of the fight and can use stealth on command, also thief can have more blinds.

Stuff like CM, Arah and some Fotms thief is better, but Engi is also better in many places.

This isnt “What class is better Thief or Engi” its all situational.

Just like Guardian Vs Mesmer, you dont always need a guard, Mesmer is better sometimes.

hf doing dredge fractal w/ engi

little kitten

5.) I think you are sorta downplaying this. Sure the team can work together to make things work. Warrior usually has at least 1 cc, staff ele has 1 on demand, almost any team can pull together 5 cc’s if they need it. But in pugs, it works a lot better to have a dedicated CC’er because pugs stink at organization.

Also worth mentioning here. I believe the true king of CC would be a thief venom share build (I know, I know, bad dps etc). But with the trait, cool down should only be 24 seconds I believe. And if 5 people get the buff (radius 360) then you have 10 stacks of defiance stripped, every 24 seconds. I know that is overkill right now, but it seems like it could be relevant when defiance bars come out in like 12 hours.

Lendruil.9061:

Amicable Pugs.4503:

Lendruil.9061:

pranker.3748:

Personally I still believe Thief is way above what people think of it right now. I don’t mind having an Engineer in the party but lets face it instant blinds, smoke fields, blasts, unlimited cc, dps, boon removal and ability to skip ahead to activate the endless monologues in dungeons should not be so easily discarded. And yes Engi can provide all but not as fast as Thief (CM, TA, Arah).
HoT is not out just yet :P !

The marked parts can be done by an engineer as good as by a thief or even better.

Engi can’t outrun thief, period. Unless you’re one of those l2p issue people who rely on toy axes then sure you can outrun everyone with super speed.
You can’t replace Thief in CM and Arah without being slower.
Engi is better everywhere else unless you aim for a record then Thief mobility might still be better in few places.

I didn’t highlight the mobility part.

Still takes a few seconds for engi to get the field ready with quite a long CD (nice call stambogazili-dredge) and as Rising Dusk added to what I forgot, pathing.