Guild Wars 2

layzoe.6035:

deSade.9437:

Sundar.1735:

Because in most cases, taking 5 warriors IS the most efficient way to play, especially in PUG’s. Maybe 4 warriors and 1 guard/mes/ele/thief, depending on the content you are doing. But damage wise nothing beats 5 wars.

Whaaat. Aha. Seems like pugs are still stuck with the “meta” of almost 1 year ago.
/laugh

Well, it does take time for information to trickle down unless you have the resource on hand to gain it I am pretty certain that most pugs don’t visit the dungeon forum. These specialized type of info such as meta are obtainable by doing research which most do not bother with unless it becomes common knowledge.

Really not hard to think for yourself and decide that 5 war isn’t optimal though.

Guardian, Reflect walls, Aegis, Group Healing, Might, More reflect walls, more Aegis, Stability, etc. VERY nice addition to a group

Thief, stealth… if you use it well, my god is it wonderful. Add on to that their superior damage, and just… yes please. Sure they’re squishy, but that’s why we have a guardian and mesmer tossing their defensive skills around to help out.

Elemental, FGS… they don’t need more than that to be awesome to have, but they are also giving a ton of might stacks, Ice Bow, and whatever else they do. Like Thief, sure squishy, but again, we have a team that can help eachother out.

Mesmer, quality support through time warp first off, then you have the reflects, and mantras. And like all of these can pump out very respectable damage for themselves while handling these other jobs.

Warrior, good damage, good survival, quality class, but outside of that they have the banners, something a solo war can handle no problem. I can understand why people would go with 5 of them, but doing so you lose all those things I mention above.

So personally, i’ll take one of each. If I were to get 2 of something, I’d probably want 2 eles, 4X FGS in a group can make things fun.

Delay.6908:

Um… eles easily beat warriors DPS wise even without FGS, so do theives providing they have the same buffs as a warrior (which is quite realistic in an organized party) and guardian/ranger are practically the same as a warrior and in fact slightly higher in the guardians case. Stacking warriors for damage is not a good idea.

Not only that but it’s very easy to output mediocre dps on a war. It’s one of the easiest class to play decently (large health pool, nice amount of blocks and evade built in) but at the same time it’s one of the classes that require the most attention paid to rotation to deal the best amount of dps. Anything that interrupts axe auto before the final hit, anything that would make you stop doing 100b and waste more time in gs auto etc not using a quickly interrupted whirlwind when not against a wall etc. if we could see stats about damage done in dungeon per individual member of the party the vast majority of pug warriors would be at the lowest %. I’d wager that most sword rangers (not pvt bowbears) in pugs actually outdps the average unskilled warrior.

I actually like rangers, yes I see their issues but I’ve never been kicked from a dungeon for being a ranger or using an axe or a longbow. There’s only been twice where I’ve been kicked – one time was Arah path 4 & I was leading a group who was experienced in Arah just not path 4, they kicked me because I didn’t want to clear every single thing in the entire dungeon run, luckily I was the dungeon opener. Another time I assume was to replace me with a friend/guild mate in CoF & I was the dungeon opener to that as well.

I’ve seen players kick others for simply being rangers, I’ve even kicked really bad rangers (they didn’t listen, pulled everything & were overall just fools) I’ve seen really good rangers- but I’ve also kicked bad players in general, not just because they were rangers. I’ve seen more bad mesmers than anything- but since this is about rangers there’s my 2 cents.

maxinion.8396:

Dalanor.5387:

layzoe.6035:

deSade.9437:

Sundar.1735:

Because in most cases, taking 5 warriors IS the most efficient way to play, especially in PUG’s. Maybe 4 warriors and 1 guard/mes/ele/thief, depending on the content you are doing. But damage wise nothing beats 5 wars.

Whaaat. Aha. Seems like pugs are still stuck with the “meta” of almost 1 year ago.
/laugh

Well, it does take time for information to trickle down unless you have the resource on hand to gain it I am pretty certain that most pugs don’t visit the dungeon forum. These specialized type of info such as meta are obtainable by doing research which most do not bother with unless it becomes common knowledge.

Until the perception and reality won’t change from “press1 until stuff dies”, this won’t change either.

plz go press 1 on mossman, lupi, and alpha

kthx

I know how things works, but the people who chanting the mantra of “nerfberzerkercuzitsskillescornerstacking1111111” … you know.

What don’t people understand about making their own parties with their friends or guildies?
Or even making a “LFG anyone allowed, come have fun!”

What’s hard about this?

blakdoxa.7520:

What don’t people understand about making their own parties with their friends or guildies?
Or even making a “LFG anyone allowed, come have fun!”

What’s hard about this?

Leeching on zerker groups for faster runs is easier.

Dalanor.5387:

Leeching on zerker groups for faster runs is easier.

and then they come here crying that we kicked them.

frifox.5283:

Dalanor.5387:

Leeching on zerker groups for faster runs is easier.

and then they come here crying that we kicked them.

Nature with it’s never ending cycles always amazes me.

Dalanor.5387:

frifox.5283:

Dalanor.5387:

Leeching on zerker groups for faster runs is easier.

and then they come here crying that we kicked them.

Nature with it’s never ending cycles always amazes me.

So these guys want their full clerics gear to hit as hard and fast as zerk?

What does “no” mean.

This thread has taught me that necro’s are OP.

(get it?)

Sundar.1735:

Because in most cases, taking 5 warriors IS the most efficient way to play, especially in PUG’s. Maybe 4 warriors and 1 guard/mes/ele/thief, depending on the content you are doing. But damage wise nothing beats 5 wars.

It’s people like you that the OP has a cause to post.

A lot more people would care if it’s true that an all-heavies team is the most efficient way to go.

I never said 5 warriors was the optimal setup everywhere. 4 warriors and an ele, mesmer or thief probably is, depending on what content you are doing. For harder areas the more guardians you have the easier the content becomes in general. But I’m skeptical about claims of 5 dps eles or thieves outdamaging 5 dps warriors in PvE whilst having as much survivability or utility. We are talking about pugs here, not premades.

I NEVER form groups where I take only certain professions and I never ask anyone to ping gear. Occasionally I do join such groups so I can get that content done quickly because I’m tired. Just because I point out that a 5 heavy team is the easiest way to play the game, it doesn’t mean I only party with heavies. The game is just designed in such a way that a team of mostly heavy armor characters is able to do HUGE amounts of damage due to their cleave, whilst having inherently greater survivability due to higher armor and access to shouts, stability etc. Statistically, a pug team of mostly heavy armor characters or even fully heavy armor characters is in general easier to faceroll with and is in general more successful and faster in completing dungeons and dies fewer times compared to, say a fully/mostly light/medium armor team. This is why we never see LFG saying “lfm light armor only” or “lfm medium armor only” whereas we do see “lfm heavy armor only”.

Warriors are forgiving with their base survivability. And pugs are suboptimal, no matter what class are we talking about, so let’s talk about actual facts how classes can work in a good environment.

nagr.1593:

We kicked a noobish 1k AP bearbow ranger today, who joined for our ‘experienced zerker only!’ post. His pet took aggro from the golems in SE P1, we were waiting for them to leash into that corner so we could clear them fast. Our entire party almost wiped, we got it done but barely. He apologized lamely after it was done.. on the plus note we got P3 done without any trouble

I have now learned to only trust rangers with a sizeable amount of AP. Because they have at least played the game long enough to realize why groups hate rangers :x

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/So-much-Ranger-Hate-Just-sad/page/4#post3572746

Hehe fun :P

I have 12k AP and I go with Long Bow, Sword + Horn Zerker —- I don’t usually do dungeons with my ranger but when I do I manage them without death and I do pretty well with my ranger … (Havent done Fractals with him though).

I actually realy hate that people use AP as a reason to see how good a players is, since it doesn’t prove much at all.

This game is meant to be played the way you want. Sure there are better builds but if people don’t like the way you play, they wheren’t worth your time anyway.
But it is never wrong to improve and find out better builds you may like so if there are players who kindly gives you advice, do listen to them atleast.

Sundar.1735:

I never said 5 warriors was the optimal setup everywhere. 4 warriors and an ele, mesmer or thief probably is, depending on what content you are doing. For harder areas the more guardians you have the easier the content becomes in general. But I’m skeptical about claims of 5 dps eles or thieves outdamaging 5 dps warriors in PvE whilst having as much survivability or utility. We are talking about pugs here, not premades..

That’s the thing. 4 Warrior with someone things else is a pretty lazy setup. You can’t say, oh i’m talking about pugs here not premade group. Because pugs or not, 4 Warrior + something else is still a lazy, easy, but suboptimal group. We are not saying that it not a good group. I play with my guild and sometime we end up with 4 warrior, just because we all decided to take our warrior on that run. Its an easy run, we do a lot of damage, but its not our best run.

But to think that Warrior are the best at DPS and Surviability is a pug mentality that is toxic to the community. Even if you don’t kick people, spreading some lie like that, push stupid people into think that ya that true, warrior are op and everything else is bad so i’ll kick them all.

The game has moved into a direction where multiple builds and professions make a better team composition (eg. Staff Ele + LH ele instead of two LH Ele).

In such a way that a team of 5 Eles, although they will heavily outDPS a team of 5 heavies is also hardly an ideal setup.

What we don’t need is a competition between all the gimmicky setups and then encourage this kind of mindset.

Even if there are some virtues discussing about PUGs, you’re gonna end up talking about warrior rifles, shortbow thieves, staff guardians, and then we’re gonna talk about the most survivable least optimal set-up to avoid dying in PUGs and then start encouraging the meta to revolve around clerics gear.

A bit of a slippery slope, but better safe than sorry.

Kumu Honua.2751:

It’s not that you aren’t heavy. It’s that you are a ranger. The class played by generally bad players overall. Doesn’t matter if you are the best ranger in the world. Faster to just dump you and not take the chance. You can be a mesmer if you want. Or an elementalist. You don’t have to be a Warrior/Guardian.

Not necessary agreeing with the logic but this is why to the OP.

Trust me as a gw1 player who main’ed an assassin I feel your pain. Did I let all the fractions groups who didn’t let me join at first bother me? Nope I went and got my Prophecies titles, once they realized I was a good sin it became a lot easier.

I realize achievement points don’t mean much, but they do mean something. Just get a lot, try getting dungeonmaster if you can (as a thief I still randomly get kicked at the start of a group too despite being 10k ap and a dungeonmaster even though no one said only heavies or meta) maybe some elite armor or weapons (something earned like fractal backpiece or weapons comes to mind, or even arah stuff… though not as presitious as it used to be thanks to sellers)

Personally I would never kick a ranger from any dungeon other than maybe high level fractals especially if he was 6k+ ap, wasn’t bow/bear, and had an arah/fractal weapon or two… unless we had a lot of rangers or just a bad group comp, in which case I’d probably just not be in that group myself.

blakdoxa.7520:

What don’t people understand about making their own parties with their friends or guildies?
Or even making a “LFG anyone allowed, come have fun!”

What’s hard about this?

Problem is, the heavy zerk only mentality has become so prevalent that people will join a “anyone/fun” group and then try to impose their will on the rest of the group or just be a general kitten. Example – had a war join my CoF group ad “p1 chilled out run” and from the immediate get go throughout the whole run was whispering me asking about my gear (I was necro dagger/wh berserkers, except for 2 knights earrings). “What your build?” “What armor stats?” You should have zerk weapon. You have?" What runes? CONSTANTLY. Even though we ripped right through the dungeon with some random mix of classes. Never gave him the satisfaction of pinging.

If the speedclear crowd is going to crow on about others not reading ads/joining the wrong group, then the same corollary applies. Don’t join the relaxed runs and get kitten-y because the run takes a minute longer or someone runs an oddball build.

thehipone.6812:

blakdoxa.7520:

What don’t people understand about making their own parties with their friends or guildies?
Or even making a “LFG anyone allowed, come have fun!”

What’s hard about this?

Problem is, the heavy zerk only mentality has become so prevalent that people will join a “anyone/fun” group and then try to impose their will on the rest of the group or just be a general kitten. Example – had a war join my CoF group ad “p1 chilled out run” and from the immediate get go throughout the whole run was whispering me asking about my gear (I was necro dagger/wh berserkers, except for 2 knights earrings). “What your build?” “What armor stats?” You should have zerk weapon. You have?" What runes? CONSTANTLY. Even though we ripped right through the dungeon with some random mix of classes. Never gave him the satisfaction of pinging.

If the speedclear crowd is going to crow on about others not reading ads/joining the wrong group, then the same corollary applies. Don’t join the relaxed runs and get kitten-y because the run takes a minute longer or someone runs an oddball build.

I won’t try to defend that warrior. But I don’t think it is the zerker mentality as you call it any more then it is the cleric mentality when a cleric guardian joins a zerker only group convinced he is needed because of his “massive” healing ability. The issue is that certain people no matter which side of the fence they are, do not want to play by the rules their group has set. A zerker joins a non zerker group, non zerkers in zerker group. They have only themselves to blame if they have a slow run or if they get kicked.

The key point is that people need to realize that the “Play how you want” That Anet sold the game with doesn’t mean they get to overide the wishes of the other four members of their groups ability to play how they want.

If I write zerker only, that is exactly what I mean. If you write “anyone/fun” that is what you wanted. The problem lies with the ones who join and don’t meet or follow what was written.

Thaddeus.4891:

Sundar.1735:

I never said 5 warriors was the optimal setup everywhere. 4 warriors and an ele, mesmer or thief probably is, depending on what content you are doing. For harder areas the more guardians you have the easier the content becomes in general. But I’m skeptical about claims of 5 dps eles or thieves outdamaging 5 dps warriors in PvE whilst having as much survivability or utility. We are talking about pugs here, not premades..

That’s the thing. 4 Warrior with someone things else is a pretty lazy setup. You can’t say, oh i’m talking about pugs here not premade group. Because pugs or not, 4 Warrior + something else is still a lazy, easy, but suboptimal group. We are not saying that it not a good group. I play with my guild and sometime we end up with 4 warrior, just because we all decided to take our warrior on that run. Its an easy run, we do a lot of damage, but its not our best run.

But to think that Warrior are the best at DPS and Surviability is a pug mentality that is toxic to the community. Even if you don’t kick people, spreading some lie like that, push stupid people into think that ya that true, warrior are op and everything else is bad so i’ll kick them all.

How is it suboptimal? It requires the least effort for reward. It is the lazy way but so what? Pugs generally want to do stuff the easy and lazy way to ensure maximum chance of success. I’ve seen a video of 4 necros and a mesmer clearing cof p1 faster than 4 warriors and a mesmer but people still don’t like necros in teams because it is just harder to make it work.

I spent the last hour looking for a fractal 50 group that didn’t post “Heavies Only” or needed 2 guardians.

Not that anet gives a kitten . This warrior/guardian supremacy has lasted for 1.5+ years and they haven’t done crap to fix it.

Zenith.7301:

I spent the last hour looking for a fractal 50 group that didn’t post “Heavies Only” or needed 2 guardians.

Not that anet gives a kitten . This warrior/guardian supremacy has lasted for 1.5+ years and they haven’t done crap to fix it.

Part of the problem is that many players live in denial and pretend that the heavy armor professions aren’t overpowered (in PvE) as they have in this thread. Guardians are basically the monks of this game as far as elite level areas are concerned. The more guardians you have in a team at high level fractals the easier it becomes, the fewer you have, the harder it becomes.

Sundar.1735:

Zenith.7301:

I spent the last hour looking for a fractal 50 group that didn’t post “Heavies Only” or needed 2 guardians.

Not that anet gives a kitten . This warrior/guardian supremacy has lasted for 1.5+ years and they haven’t done crap to fix it.

Part of the problem is that many players live in denial and pretend that the heavy armor professions aren’t overpowered (in PvE) as they have in this thread. Guardians are basically the monks of this game as far as elite level areas are concerned. The more guardians you have in a team at high level fractals the easier it becomes, the fewer you have, the harder it becomes.

But it’s not just guardians. Warriors too. After 2 guardians you are bringing 2 warriors and a mesmer, and even then you can eliminate the mesmer and go with 3 warriors.

And the kicker is that after 2 hours I finally found a group composed of 1 ranger, 1 warrior, 1 guardian, 1 mesmer, and 1 ele (me). We breezed through the 50 fractal faster than some of those heavies only groups I’ve had (where im the only light armor and they grudgingly can’t be bothered to kick me, though some still do).

The problem is that people like me, who also have a guardian but prefer an ele, are not being considered at all! Our skill isn’t even being tested for the first fractal and they can kick after if there’s failure on my part!

Nope, straight out ban on non-guardians and warriors, and if I am to start my own 50’s group, guess which groups fill up before mine, if mine fills at all? You guessed it, the group started by a guardian or warrior.

Hell, I’m a freaking conjure ele, the highest DPS class in the game, and I have a hard time getting into PuG’s. It’s why I haven’t even bothered on my ranger, because it would just be getting kicked left and right.

And guess what, that ranger in our group was pretty good. The water field with a long duration is good, the spirit is good. If you need to range bosses like mossman or archdivinert temporarily, it is that ranger who’s pulling the highest damage, and his melee damage is good. His pet can block projectiles, and with his short cd knockback he burns through defiance stacks pretty quick to get in interrupts when necessary, making bosses like the ettin really easy to lock down.

I mean, ranger is still full of issues, but it’s not a huge setback.

And then there’s the issue that even if I can play my guardian and warrior if I can’t be allowed into any party for hours as an ele, the agony system at 50 does not let me.

70 AR is freaking expensive. I don’t have ascended armor, so it cost me about 160 gold total to bump from 55 to 70. On a single toon because AR for some reason is account bound! AR alone is a complete anti-alt system and for higher level fractals you’re locked out to one toon, and if you picked the wrong class you’re going to be spending significantly more time looking for a group than a warrior or guardian.

The new lv50 fractal is also absolute garbage compared to those lv 48/50+ dailies. Prior to the fractal update if you knew how to dodge agony attacks, you could forego AR. But the lv50 fractal does an intermitten agony pulse in combat that completely negates the skill factor in making AR gear optional. AR becomes mandatory at lv50.

L0l you think random zerkers are part of the speedclear crowd..??

Funny fact :

Yesterday I joined an ALL HEAVIES ZERKER CoE PuG group. I then proceeded to ask for an ele and a mes and it happened.

#convincingpugs2K14

Zenith.7301:

And the kicker is that after 2 hours I finally found a group composed of 1 ranger, 1 warrior, 1 guardian, 1 mesmer, and 1 ele (me). We breezed through the 50 fractal faster than some of those heavies only groups I’ve had (where im the only light armor and they grudgingly can’t be bothered to kick me, though some still do).

The kicker is that the general consensus in the Dungeon subforum is that you really don’t want so many heavies in your party. You guys are really preaching to the choir here. The people you’re upset about are PUGs that really never check the forums. Or if they do, they’re so set with their ways that they won’t listen to reason on anybody’s side.

Really, if you want to promote CHANGE in PUGs… form your own party. Enlighten them. Show them how valuable a group that can provide diverse, synergistic buffs can be.

The problem is that half of the heavies (guardians) are almost necessary for any pug. One or even two to faceroll as lazy as possible. So realistically speaking, even knowledgeable pug would go with at least 1 warrior and 2 guardians, that’s 3 heavies already.

Now add the fact the warrior is arguably the most common profession (I had to close the recruitment of warriors) and easy to play. Moreover, some pugs might kick you for dying more than them and that means that playing more risky professions like eles or thieves is discouraged by pugs.

Those might be the reasons you end up with 3-5 heavies parties all the time with pugs.

Heavy are not overpower. They are more easy. The best combination usually take 1-2 Warriors, 1-2 Ele, and then a thief, guardian or mesmer depending on the situation. But for pugs, they are use to play with some bad player and their experience is Heavy = win, Light/Medium = wipe. So they prefer heavies.

Now if you want to talk about fractal, its a whole other thing. Fractal is the reflect paradise. 2 Guardians make the run far more easier, no because they are heavies. Only because of Wall of Reflection and to a lesser extend or shield of wrath. Take these two utilities and give them to a ranger and suddenly you gonna see a lot of post LF 2 Ranger for fractal.

I pugged SE p1 with 4 eles and a mesmer last night. Light class or get kicked lol. Seriously though even with 3 of the eles being celestial (me being zerk) we cleared it faster than the all heavy group i did it with my guardian the day before: another guard (who was a staff camping soldier/cleric hybrid who couldn’t be bothered to respec for pve) and 3 wars (only 1 smart enough to bring any banners).

With 2 groups mostly consisting of bad builds (its a pug, to be expected) the light classes actually had superior dps and utility.

Balance in dungeon is achieved trough disparity. Having 5 of the same class brings low all possible option. Give me a mesmer a warrior a guardian a elementalist and a thief in the same party lets see what we get?

Mesmer can provide the party:
1. meat walls from clones
2. A full uptime of quickness
3. Projectile reflection
4. partywide invisibility

Guardian can provide:
1. Partywide aegis protection and regeneration
2. Might stacking
3. Anti movement lines
4. party swiftness
5. Projectile deflection

Warrior can provide:
1. Banners
2. cleansing shout and shouts as a average
3. partywide ressurection (elite banner)

Elementalist will provide
1. regeneration
2. might stacking
3. heavy aoe effect that easily destroy objects

Thief provide
1. Very long stealth uptime
2. stealthed revive (can revive players in the middle of a battle without behing attacked)

If we have 5 warrior we loosing all possibility for stealth, protection and aegis buffing, projectile deflect are forced into spamming FGJ for might stacking and cant aquire quickness by normal means wich in all case is nuisible to the party effectiveness.
Here im writing from a elitism point of view, If we stop thinking damage is the only way out we end up with even more possibility for actual effects.

I often find out that despite the lack of professionalism of pugs random teams generaly possess a wider array of options then single class or premade teams because of the actual freedom of builds (Support control damage? why not?).

By the way Thaddeus some friends of mine (in real life) seems to know you in game and speak quite well of your deeds, i salute you.

kyubi.3620:

By the way Thaddeus some friends of mine (in real life) seems to know you in game and speak quite well of your deeds, i salute you.

Thank you. I know some people in TIME indeed, don’t know if its them. I suppose its from dungeon or world boss champ when I tag up, because we don’t see you guys much in WvW. You miss the daily chili kill. lol

Actualy i was refering to people in your guild two of them to be exact but that works to.

The issue is that in the beginning warriors weren’t even that popular. It was 1.5 years of neglect and letting the guardians and warriors stew in their dominance that has led to such a saturation of those classes.

Rangers and classes of the sort, as well as necromancers are among some of the most popular classes, yet in their state Anet was complicit in the dwindling of the class’s population.

Engineers and Necromancers in particular are a whole new level of class neglect. How can you implement a power necro, who’s the only class with a noncleaving melee weapon, whose single target melee weapon does less damage than others classes melee weapons that CLEAVE, and they get stuck with the only single target ranged weapon with a range limit of 600, a horrendous autoattack only rivaled by ranger’s mainhand axe autoattack, and virtually no group support that stands out from other offerings. Their core mechanic, conditions, are less effective on boss mobs so a necromancer applying weakness or blind or chill to a boss is still not as effective as a guardian applying protection and aegis/regen on the group.