Guild Wars 2

Well put, I agree with this view 100%. Introducing challenging content does not need to segregate the haves and have nots as shown over the last 3 years with the rest of the game. It’s a shame Anet implemented raids the way they did.

MadRabbit.3179:

I feel this is a mistake, because the inclusive philosophy of the game has created it’s overall positive and healthy community. The introduction of exclusive content is what, I feel, breeds a degree of toxicity that can be found rampant in other MMOs like WoW. This toxicity comes in the form of a degree of elitism, feelings of exclusion due to the limit of players, exclusion of certain classes due to imbalance issues, abuse of new or casual players who want to participate but are still learning the content and barrier to entry in the form of ascended gear which has historically been optional in all content.

Tbh I think this would have worse side effects in GW2 than in WoW, since in GW2 everyone was more or less on the same page, now with the raids there’s gonna be a fracture in the community, a fracture that already started to happen with the release of HoT. In WoW on the other hand, you already know what you’re getting into.

Barzhal.2640:

Well put, I agree with this view 100%. Introducing challenging content does not need to segregate the haves and have nots as shown over the last 3 years with the rest of the game. It’s a shame Anet implemented raids the way they did.

It’s 100% from me as well, good post.

Kam.4092:

Git Gud

EXACTLY the toxicity the OP was talking about, thank you for proving his point.

@OP Well said, 100% agree.

I think that including a variety of content for a variety of playstyles is a good thing. This includes, “hardcore,” play.

Casual play has been catered to for three plus years now, implementing some permanent hardcore content now after all that time seems appropriate.

Before Anet works on an easier mode for raids, I think they should work on hard mode for older content.

smiling.9028:

Kam.4092:

Git Gud

EXACTLY the toxicity the OP was talking about, thank you for proving his point.

@OP Well said, 100% agree.

That “toxicity” is just that now you’re actually expected to have certain skills and to know the game well. It’s just good design to expect players to learn, adapt, and grow in skill instead of expecting them to be carried by large numbers.
Are certain players too mean? Yes, but that’s a generalization and depends entirely on the individuals. I try my best to teach anyone who is new to a raid encounter, but not everyone is quite as patient, especially after several hours.

I think that including a variety of content for a variety of play styles is a good thing. This includes both casual and hardcore play.

For three years the emphasis in GW2 has been on casual play. I think that it is appropriate to add a hardcore play element at this point.

Personally I think that, before Anet looks into easier modes for raids, they should look into adding hard mode for core game content.

Malchior.5732:

smiling.9028:

Kam.4092:

Git Gud

EXACTLY the toxicity the OP was talking about, thank you for proving his point.

@OP Well said, 100% agree.

The toxicity you guys all talk about is that certain skills are actually expected of you now instead of letting you be carried by all the good players.
I see that as good game design, when you expect players to learn, adapt, and grow in skill. Certain players are too mean, but that is just a generalization and depends entirely on the individuals.

So what do you feel would be lost if raid content used scaling difficulties that allowed players lacking in skill and mechanical mastery to still participate without hindering the progression of people who want to play at a higher level of difficulty?

We could even make a middle ground between inclusivity and exclusivity where the legendary armor was acquired in tiers, each tier requiring completing the content at a different difficulty level and each tier with an unique visual style that expressed your accomplishments.

MadRabbit.3179:

Malchior.5732:

smiling.9028:

Kam.4092:

Git Gud

EXACTLY the toxicity the OP was talking about, thank you for proving his point.

@OP Well said, 100% agree.

The toxicity you guys all talk about is that certain skills are actually expected of you now instead of letting you be carried by all the good players.
I see that as good game design, when you expect players to learn, adapt, and grow in skill. Certain players are too mean, but that is just a generalization and depends entirely on the individuals.

So what do you feel would be lost if raid content used scaling difficulties that allowed players lacking in skill and mechanical mastery to still participate without hindering the progression of people who want to play at a higher level of difficulty?

We could even make a middle ground between inclusivity and exclusivity where the legendary armor was acquired in tiers, each tier requiring completing the content at a different difficulty level and each tier with an unique visual style that expressed your accomplishments.

We’d still have “casual” players complaining that they can’t get the most prestigious version of legendary armor. There is no easy fix here. It’s just opposing interests in the player base and they both must have content made for them and you need exclusive rewards for the “hardcore” players, otherwise theres no incentive for the extra effort other than just fun while the “casuals” profit immensely over them(raids are already a waste of time and money technically). Open world got slightly harder, but it still pretty easy to run around in(again, you’re just expected to learn and adapt here, although not by a large margin) while raids are for the more coordinated groups.

This was very well put. Imbalance is a HUGE issue and at this moment, if you did not play the way others want you to, you will not get to raid. If Anet does not plan to fix this imbalance, they might as well just take out the other class (namely thief). I would really like to see a group take some thieves but at this time, thief is like pluto —- it used to be a class but now it’s a grade above NPCs. Not the good ones like in HoT either.

Malchior.5732:

We’d still have “casual” players complaining that they can’t get the most prestigious version of legendary armor. There is no easy fix here. It’s just opposing interests in the player base and they both must have content made for them. Open world got slightly harder, but it still pretty easy to run around in(again, you’re just expected to learn and adapt here, although not by a large margin) while raids are for the more coordinated groups.

Fair enough. That is true. I think it’s pretty reasonable middle ground and much more acceptable than the aesthetical and story experience of an entire zone that my money went to develop being blocked by a barrier determined by the quality of my gear and how much drool is on my keyboard.

Since we only got 3 ugly new armorsets in HoT so far, and no new in the gemstore
since 1.5 years i guess all other armorsets will be only available in raids and all the
“unworthy” “bad” players can wear outfits.

NOT having this kind of bullkitten gamedesign where 90-95% of the players pay
for content that only 5-10% of the players will ever see was the main reason
i started with GW2 …

I start to think ANet trys to play the Anti-LotRO ..
LotRO renmoved raidiance … we got agony
LotRO removed raids .. now we got that kitten

Make a normal version that drops Exotic only gear then? Call it story mode

Malchior.5732:

smiling.9028:

Kam.4092:

Git Gud

EXACTLY the toxicity the OP was talking about, thank you for proving his point.

@OP Well said, 100% agree.

That “toxicity” is just that now you’re actually expected to have certain skills and to know the game well. It’s just good design to expect players to learn, adapt, and grow in skill instead of expecting them to be carried by large numbers.
Are certain players too mean? Yes, but that’s a generalization and depends entirely on the individuals. I try my best to teach anyone who is new to a raid encounter, but not everyone is quite as patient, especially after several hours.

if raids were truly all about skill it wouldnt had been designed as yet another dps race in the game as it is its not about skill but rather running specific Professions with specific builds

Rezzet.3614:

Malchior.5732:

smiling.9028:

Kam.4092:

Git Gud

EXACTLY the toxicity the OP was talking about, thank you for proving his point.

@OP Well said, 100% agree.

That “toxicity” is just that now you’re actually expected to have certain skills and to know the game well. It’s just good design to expect players to learn, adapt, and grow in skill instead of expecting them to be carried by large numbers.
Are certain players too mean? Yes, but that’s a generalization and depends entirely on the individuals. I try my best to teach anyone who is new to a raid encounter, but not everyone is quite as patient, especially after several hours.

if raids were truly all about skill it wouldnt had been designed as yet another dps race in the game as it is its not about skill but rather running specific Professions with specific builds

It’s about maintaining DPS while applying specific mechanics. That IS skill.

It’s not really about being able to acquire Legendary armour. It’s about participation. My guild is a PvX which welcomed people from all skill levels. The design of the game previously allowed that. Vets could help lesser skilled players through content.

Raids strongly discourage that. As a result, more veteran players that had the skill and experience found that there weren’t enough players in the guild with the required skill level within the guild, and looked to friends outside the guild to be able to run Raids, fracturing our community.

You can hardly blame anyone for wanting to play the new raid content, or demand that they try and carry less skilled guildies in content that doesn’t allow it. It’s the sharp yank in design philosophy that caused this.

Between this and a number of other grievances about HoT a guild that has run since the first beta weekend is now closing shop at the end of the month. The sort of social ’everyone’s welcome’ guild comes under a lot of strain when new content punishes it.

Pretty Pixie.8603:

It’s not really about being able to acquire Legendary armour. It’s about participation. My guild is a PvX which welcomed people from all skill levels. The design of the game previously allowed that. Vets could help lesser skilled players through content.

Raids strongly discourage that. As a result, more veteran players that had the skill and experience found that there weren’t enough players in the guild with the required skill level within the guild, and looked to friends outside the guild to be able to run Raids, fracturing our community.

You can hardly blame anyone for wanting to play the new raid content, or demand that they try and carry less skilled guildies in content that doesn’t allow it. It’s the sharp yank in design philosophy that caused this.

Between this and a number of other grievances about HoT a guild that has run since the first beta weekend is now closing shop at the end of the month. The sort of social ’everyone’s welcome’ guild comes under a lot of strain when new content punishes it.

This is more of what I was trying to hit on the head. The choice in design implementation of raids potentially represents a paradigm shift in the game itself and if it continues down this path, I think the unique culture and community of Guild Wars 2 will dissolve.

Scaled difficulty that introduced the raid mechanics in stages would allow verteran players to work with new players at lower difficulty scales without the end result being always failure.

Completely agree…

It’s horrible to pay $50 for content that you end up being excluded from because you’re too casual to start a crafting profession, and make a full ascended set.

What happened to exotics being highest entry level? what happened to grindless game catered for casuals, THE WHOLE REASON I BOUGHT THIS INSTEAD OF WoW.

As someone else pointed out: 3 Years of a fun game with a casual playerbase, can the elite playerbase keep the game going another 3 years?

sephiroth.4217:

Completely agree…

It’s horrible to pay $50 for content that you end up being excluded from because you’re too casual to start a crafting profession, and make a full ascended set.

What happened to exotics being highest entry level? what happened to grindless game catered for casuals, THE WHOLE REASON I BOUGHT THIS INSTEAD OF WoW.

As someone else pointed out: 3 Years of a fun game with a casual playerbase, can the elite playerbase keep the game going another 3 years?

A lot of “elites” have been here since the very beginning, myself included, although I don’t like being called an “elite”.

That being said, I don’t appreciate me paying $50 for content I can beat in mere moments. I like the challenge and I want more of it. I’m content with having a lot of game being casual-friendly, but isn’t it fair for more “hardcore” players to have something for them too?

A shame that his guild and others are having troubles, but just because you can’t do a VERY small portion of the game with your casual PvE guild doesn’t mean there’s a big issue here. Those people just need to find a separate group to raid with; that’s why you can be in several guilds at once. I have my guild that I play with in general PvE, I’m in a pvp guild, and I have a guild filled solely with raid buddies.

Kam.4092:

Make a normal version that drops Exotic only gear then? Call it story mode

Problem there is it would imply that the mobs and bosses are canonically weaker and less skilled than in hardcore mode.

Agemnon.4608:

Kam.4092:

Make a normal version that drops Exotic only gear then? Call it story mode

Problem there is it would imply that the mobs and bosses are canonically weaker and less skilled than in hardcore mode.

That’s the point. There would be an easy version for people that everyone can do, which would make threads like this cease to exist

sephiroth.4217:

Completely agree…

It’s horrible to pay $50 for content that you end up being excluded from because you’re too casual to start a crafting profession, and make a full ascended set.

What happened to exotics being highest entry level? what happened to grindless game catered for casuals, THE WHOLE REASON I BOUGHT THIS INSTEAD OF WoW.

As someone else pointed out: 3 Years of a fun game with a casual playerbase, can the elite playerbase keep the game going another 3 years?

Oh the expansion only covered the raids? All this time I could have been playing the new content.

Thanks for the info!

I don’t raid because I can’t be bothered to find 9 other people.

Malchior.5732:

A shame that his guild and others are having troubles, but just because you can’t do a VERY small portion of the game with your casual PvE guild doesn’t mean there’s a big issue here. Those people just need to find a separate group to raid with; that’s why you can be in several guilds at once. I have my guild that I play with in general PvE, I’m in a pvp guild, and I have a guild filled solely with raid buddies.

It’s a small part of the game, that takes a lot of time and participation of those playing it. Anet has already committed to multiple wings and multiple Raids, plus a lot of repeat play is needed to get the rewards.

what you suggested with multiple guilds is exactly what happened, as stated in my earlier post. That means that those participating are in some cases not repping, and certainly not interacting with the parent guild.

In our case some lower ranks repped their raid guilds, others, mostly staff, still repped but were not able to cummunicate due to the need to pay attention to the raid/voip. As a result the guildchat became a lot more muted, and potential new recruits were met with silence and a lot of people not repping. Were vets used to be able to quickly respond to questions of new players before, now those questions went unanswered, leading to frustration by players thinking they were ignored.

In smaller guilds, 5-8 people not interacting with the guild is a big hit. And our raiders didn’t act elitist or anything; they lamented the need to go outside the guild. Raid design needs more specialised guilds, and puts pressure on established PvX guilds with players with a mix of interests.

Ofcourse, raids alone aren’t to blame. A lot of design choices favour larger guilds, like the massive goldsink of scribing and guildhalls in general. The dissatisfaction with WvW of our WvW players, etc. But they certainly contributed.

sorry buddy, raiding is only for the rich.

Malchior.5732:

A lot of “elites” have been here since the very beginning, myself included, although I don’t like being called an “elite”.

That being said, I don’t appreciate me paying $50 for content I can beat in mere moments. I like the challenge and I want more of it. I’m content with having a lot of game being casual-friendly, but isn’t it fair for more “hardcore” players to have something for them too?

A shame that his guild and others are having troubles, but just because you can’t do a VERY small portion of the game with your casual PvE guild doesn’t mean there’s a big issue here. Those people just need to find a separate group to raid with; that’s why you can be in several guilds at once. I have my guild that I play with in general PvE, I’m in a pvp guild, and I have a guild filled solely with raid buddies.

I still don’t quite get this. I don’t believe it has to be an all or nothing type of deal. I really want there to be challenging content for my own personal desires, but I think using a scaled difficulty model similar to fractals with some middle ground on exclusivity of rewards to encourage players to challenge themselves can satisfy both kinds of players.

It’s not like this is beyond the technical capability of Arenanet. The progression of fractals constantly adds new and challenging mechanics to increase difficulty and promote additional coordination. This type of progression allows for players to actually improve their skills and mechanic mastery without it being constant failure.

I find raid to be less about skill and stats, more about willing. If you are willing you will play better, as long as you are willing you eventually beat the raid. If you are not willing to put in time and effort for the content, you are not going to get through it’s that simple.

I like raids the way they are. So far it is the only enjoyable content in HoT.

MadRabbit.3179:

Malchior.5732:

A lot of “elites” have been here since the very beginning, myself included, although I don’t like being called an “elite”.

That being said, I don’t appreciate me paying $50 for content I can beat in mere moments. I like the challenge and I want more of it. I’m content with having a lot of game being casual-friendly, but isn’t it fair for more “hardcore” players to have something for them too?

A shame that his guild and others are having troubles, but just because you can’t do a VERY small portion of the game with your casual PvE guild doesn’t mean there’s a big issue here. Those people just need to find a separate group to raid with; that’s why you can be in several guilds at once. I have my guild that I play with in general PvE, I’m in a pvp guild, and I have a guild filled solely with raid buddies.

I still don’t quite get this. I don’t believe it has to be an all or nothing type of deal. I really want there to be challenging content for my own personal desires, but I think using a scaled difficulty model similar to fractals with some middle ground on exclusivity of rewards to encourage players to challenge themselves can satisfy both kinds of players.

It’s not like this is beyond the technical capability of Arenanet. The progression of fractals constantly adds new and challenging mechanics to increase difficulty and promote additional coordination. This type of progression allows for players to actually improve their skills and mechanic mastery without it being constant failure.

That content already exists, I mean, you just pointed it out. Fractals should be a gateway into Raids. Fractals are not functional right now and should be fixed, but either way, you’re going to hit that wall where you NEED high coordination and personal skill and people will want exclusive rewards; it’s only natural to reward people for completing difficult things.

@guild discussion: I don’t rep my “raid” guild at all. It’s merely a roster of players. Regardless, they all have zero excuse not to participate in guild chat because it’s literally ALWAYS available. You can always use any guild chat without ever having to rep any of them.
However, if you expect them to stop what they’re doing in 7+ minute fight to answer questions or help others all the time then I think the issue is with the guild itself. They help newer members out of kindness but if they’re busy, then expecting immediate answers and discussion constantly is more of an annoyance then. Yea, when it’s a small guild it can be rough, but with so many players not doing raids, why can’t the non-raiders in your guild cover them? Even one person helping newer members is enough.

Kam.4092:

Agemnon.4608:

Kam.4092:

Make a normal version that drops Exotic only gear then? Call it story mode

Problem there is it would imply that the mobs and bosses are canonically weaker and less skilled than in hardcore mode.

That’s the point. There would be an easy version for people that everyone can do, which would make threads like this cease to exist

No really, they would not cease to exist because even though people complain about not being able to participate in raids, their REAL complaint is that they wouldn’t be able to succeed AND get loot from their time raids with an easymode.

I don’t raid either. Mainly because people don’t want a dps/dpb thief in a raid. Even my guild, which is a very nice one, can’t find a use for me in raids.

Malchior.5732:

That content already exists, I mean, you just pointed it out. Fractals should be a gateway into Raids. Fractals are not functional right now and should be fixed, but either way, you’re going to hit that wall where you NEED high coordination and personal skill and people will want exclusive rewards; it’s only natural to reward people for completing difficult things.

I agree completely. High difficulty should produce exclusive awards; it’s a fundamental requirement for the model to work.

But it’s not really the exclusivity of rewards I take issue with; it’s the exclusive experience of the content itself that is being blocked by a skill and gear barrier.

The reason I think fractals is a working model is, because each fractal can be experienced by nearly any player at it’s lowest difficulty. You can experience the unique lore, side story and aesthetics of each fractal without achieving a certain mastery of the mechanics. The awards of higher level fractals still require achieving that mastery, but the basic experience of just doing content is available to anyone. Veteran players can easily run thru a fractal and share the experience with novice players if they are willing to lower the difficulty and accept lesser rewards.

That aspect is what I feel is missing from the raid itself. You have to complete the raid at higher difficulty to gain exclusive awards, but the aesthetics, lore, story and experience of the new raiding content is still available to all players.

You should not be blocked from being able to experience the lore and aesthetics of a new area of content, because you chose to main a thief and it’s not in the meta or you haven’t invested the large amount of money to level up your crafting professions and produce ascended gear or because a group of players don’t have the patience to teach you the fight. That is in direct conflict with the very philosophy that Arenanet themselve’s publicly stated when they defined what their game was going to be about.

And this is coming someone who is in the percentage of people who can do raid content. I have full ascended, I have a legendary, I main a class in the meta and I have the skill level to master and complete the content. I just don’t, because I strongly disgree with the direction this is taking the game.

If I wanted to raid, I’d go back to WoW where they are done 100 times better. And not only that, WoW offers different raid difficulties from pug to super hardmodes for ALL types of players instead of only the top 1% rich people. W/e, I main thief and no one wants us in PvE or PvP so I am pretty much sol I guess.

MadRabbit.3179:

I like being able to log on at any point and immediately join and begin participating in content without any kind of barrier. I can even choose not to play it for two months and rejoin the game without falling behind and having to grind to catch up. There was an initial investment of grinding to get full exotic, but beyond that, you could effectively participate in anything you wanted even as purely casual player.

Just curious to see what other people thought.

Im tired of lame pvp fights style in this game but i want a backpack, can i somehow turn off pvp difficulty to recive onyly new players as my opponents?

I play different classes, from full asc berserker made for fractals , to a Hammer wielding Scrapper over a sinister condi chronomancer. I went into a raid once with my guild, and i immediately decided it would be the last time.

Not because of the difficulty, but because i saw the frikkin timer on the first boss and said, hell no, i’m not gonna do that kind of crap again.

I’ve experienced it in another mmo where bosses had an ‘enrage’ timer, and believe me, 95+ percent of the population couldn’t do it in time and the 5% that could crowned themselves ‘elite’. It created a rift and a toxic environment that ripped through the community.

Aside from that, to become good in raids you need to spend a lot of time in there, you won’t just learn it suddenly. But for that i have this quote taken directly from raid wiki :

A 2003 study by the National Institutes of Health found that playing MMORPGs for more than 20 hours per week correlates to obesity and nutritional imbalance as well as an increased propensity for bone loss and muscle atrophy. Due to these concerns, China has proposed national limits on how long people can play MMORPGs. The measures will impose penalties on people who play MMORPGs for more than 3 hours per day.

Something the Anet dev’s do not care about (your health), seeing ppl can spend over 20 hrs in the raid instance. So to all those lazy fat buggers that keep on raiding 24/7 : get out of your chair, drop the pizza’s and go out for a walk. ^^

The OP made the right choice: Raids weren’t designed for them; they were designed for folks who want more than the challenge that the “jump in anywhere” philosophy allows for. The entire game is made up of content that can be done like that, except for raids.

And I think that’s a good thing for the game and the community. I think there should be a few (and only a few) bits that can only be done with certain skills and that perhaps only a minority will enjoy.

• Raids, require in-combat skill.
• SAB (or something like that) requiring precision jumping.
• tbd (requiring other types of skills)

As long as this type of content is limited to hither and yon, I think it will help give so-called “hardcores” a place to go to, which will mean they are less likely to go as nuts in other parts of the game, where cooperation (and teaching others) is more important than being “gud”. (Although, clearly, the new maps require us to pay more attention to our builds and combat skills than the old ones.)

Malchior.5732:

I don’t appreciate me paying $50 for content I can beat in mere moments. I like the challenge and I want more of it. I’m content with having a lot of game being casual-friendly, but isn’t it fair for more “hardcore” players to have something for them too?

Others feel the same about paying $50 for raids they’ll never use. I think one big flaw of the expansion was maybe lumping too much in one package: new technologies, new game modes, new areas, new story, new profession, almost ensuring that nobody would be happy with the whole thing. It’s all very inter-dependent and complicated now, but it makes me wonder if it couldn’t have been split into several smaller, cheaper stages, maybe separating the tech (masteries) from the content (hot), maybe making raids an optional extra. There’s no way of knowing really.

Leming.8436:

MadRabbit.3179:

I like being able to log on at any point and immediately join and begin participating in content without any kind of barrier. I can even choose not to play it for two months and rejoin the game without falling behind and having to grind to catch up. There was an initial investment of grinding to get full exotic, but beyond that, you could effectively participate in anything you wanted even as purely casual player.

Just curious to see what other people thought.

Im tired of lame pvp fights style in this game but i want a backpack, can i somehow turn off pvp difficulty to recive onyly new players as my opponents?

Sure, you turn in a bunch of straw to an NPC in the PvP lobby and he just gives you one. It shouldn’t be an issue for you since you have plenty of it to throw around.

But seriously, apples to oranges. PvP is a game mode where the entire philosophy is to encourage competition between players and rank them based on skill. PvE in GW2 was built around inclusivity, freedom of choice and creating a positive environment where players weren’t fighting each other. This is not my opinion; that is stuff said in interviews when GW2 just came out.

So if someone just gave you a backpack in PvP without earning it, I would object to that, because it contradicts the philosophy PvP is built on and ruins the game much in the same way I am objecting to a new area of content that cannot be experienced at all by a percentage of players due to a skill, gear and class imbalance barrier that has been created by it’s design.

Some very good posts from all angles.

I think that exclusive items should drop only from the current raid.

I also think a scaleable story mode version of the raid should be created for those who seek the lore and story but not the current raid .

Please note; I am not truly interested in what others consider hard or easy, I am more interested in the game maintaining a decent mass of customers.

The real challenge of raids is finding 9 other people you can stand to be around for an activity that’s not a cakewalk. THAT is what raid loot is trying to incentivize, because you can build encounters that are every bit as challenging (or moreso) for solo or small group play.

I’ve both raided and lead raids on several other MMOs and to me it’s FAR more important to find people who are tolerant, patient, and mature enough to know that building a stable group means coping with a few less than apex skill level payers and helping them get up to speed. That know you are gonna get beat down a few times learning/developing strategies. That recognize that while we may only meet one night a week, there’s six other days you could be working on your character or helping other people on the team get what they need to shine.

Obnoxious raid groups are one of the worst experiences to be had from MMOs.

Quality raid groups are one of the best experiences to be had from MMOs.

Idk why you think every piece of content anet creates should be accessible to you. I kid you not you can still pop into open world and participate in zerg trains

RoRo.8270:

Idk why you think every piece of content anet creates should be accessible to you. I kid you not you can still pop into open world and participate in zerg trains

Like seriously? Are you being serious right now? This is the question you are legitimately asking me?

Because the money I spent on the expansion and the money I have spent in the gem store over the years has gone to pay to create that content.

Like, holy dancing kittens, batman. Have you beaten any of the raid content? If so, I change my stance. Raids are too easy. Anyone can do it.

100% agree with OP.

GW2 was very casual friendly but since HOT it is not casual anymore.

MadRabbit.3179:

Because the money I spent on the expansion and the money I have spent in the gem store over the years has gone to pay to create that content.

And you are CHOOSING to exercising your right to not partake of it.

MadRabbit.3179:

So I’ve made a consumer choice not to participate in raid content

Jumping puzzles are included in the price I paid for the game. I choose to not do them.

Ashen.2907:

MadRabbit.3179:

Because the money I spent on the expansion and the money I have spent in the gem store over the years has gone to pay to create that content.

And you are CHOOSING to exercising your right to not partake of it.

MadRabbit.3179:

So I’ve made a consumer choice not to participate in raid content

Jumping puzzles are included in the price I paid for the game. I choose to not do them.

Apples to oranges.

If you want to do jumping puzzles, you can do them at any point. There isn’t an artificial barrier created by other players that prohibit you from partaking, because you play a class that doesn’t contribute enough or have not invested the absurd amount of time and gold required to acquire ascended gear so your character can do enough damage to mathematically complete the event before the end of the rage timer.

You can argue that participating does not guarentee completion, because it’s a skill challenge and you would be correct. But this is not a black or white issue; there is varying shades of grey here that create different levels of inclusivity and exclusivity in order to preserve a degree of challege. This is why there is varying degrees of difficulty in jumping puzzles which is in keeping with my argument that raids should have scaled difficulty.

To be honest, I don’t get why people are objecting to this at this point. Some people did on the issue of reward exclusivity in which case I amended my orginal position to agree with them.

Scaled difficulty is a win win. It makes the content inclusive to all players in keeping with the original game philosophy while allowing players a higher difficulty level and greater rewards if they CHOOSE to make that time and money investment.

We already have this model in fractals. It’s been used by the majority of video games in the history of video games to allow people of varying levels to experience the game at the level they choose to, usually at the cost of higher rewards or achievements. WoW uses it with it’s LFR system to make end game content available to casual players while still preserving the difficulty and challenge of raids that hardcore community has come to expect.

Not including it with raids is just a mistake that violates the original premise in which they sold their game on. And if the focus of all future PvE content becomes on producing more and more of these raids that are exclusive to a percentage of the community, the culture and community of GW2 is going to change greatly.

The carebear attitudes in here are sickening. That’s all I got to say.

The major issue that I have with raids as currently implemented is that the current raid has been stated to be the story leading in to LS3. That makes this raid core content, and core content that will only be completed by a fraction of the playerbase is a terrible design decision.

There are also points to be made about whether the degree of development resources required for raids is worth it in contrast to how few players the content is for and the possible negative effects that the introduction of raids will have on the community. However, for me, those points are interesting but not as much of a concern as the initially mentioned issue.

The original Guild Wars also had content that was designed to be of a higher difficulty level to challenge people who wanted it, but, with one notable exception, it was always optional side content, rather than core content. The exception mentioned here was the gating of access to the last Ritualist Hero behind Winds of Change Hard Mode. This was a move that wasn’t taken well by the community, and probably would have been a larger point of contention if it hadn’t arrived right on the tail end of GW’s life cycle. I still view it as a mistake as it represented a clear break between difficult content for cosmetics and rewards and difficult content locking out core content.

I hold a similar view in regards to certain items like Ascended Viper trinkets being accessible solely from raids since the statsets for your character are clearly core content. I don’t object to the raid having an exclusive story that can only be experienced by raiding, but it shouldn’t be the lead in story for LS3. That’s content that should never be behind an exclusivity wall and it was a mistake on Anet’s part to make it so.

I’m glad they did it the way they did. Organizing with a skilled team and taking down the raid bosses is rewarding as hell, if it were any easier I’d be disappointed. You all need to suck it up, you can still do the other things you loved, and the rest of HoT is still pretty fun and doable on your own.

I’m not planning to participate in any raids anytime soon. For a multitude of reasons, which I will now list in no specific order:

#1: I am the most uncoordinated individual I have ever met. It takes me hours to do jumping puzzles, let alone when I have 9 angry players waiting for me to get it right. Most of my play in this game consists of pre-planning and theorycrafting, and very little consists of clutch plays and precise movements. My aptitude for anything “skill” related is incredibly low, so much so that my actual skill caps out a week within playing the game. I can’t “get gud” basically.

#2: I don’t have anyone to do it with. Nobody in my area plays GW2, and I’m a lone wolf by trade. Any PUG groups I manage to get in on will be filled full of antisocial neckbeards desperate to prove something who will rage when yet another thing in their life doesn’t go exactly right. Without a group that will understand that I’ll ruin half the attempts because my fingers up and decided to not respond to my brain, running a raid is just going to be a frustrating experience that benefits nobody.

#3: I don’t have time to do it. I keep odd hours IRL, and now that I’m going to college a surprisingly large amount of time is dedicated to that fact. The first week of raids was an exam week, so now that everybody wants “experienced”, I’ll never get in to a group.

#4:It goes against what I’ve been striving for in this game, which is gear equality and class equality. The whole point of making the game harder in specific ways was to make it so more gearsets other than full glass cannon were desirable. But, by putting an enrage timer into mix, the only gearsets that get encouraged are berserker, berserker with a piece or two of knight gear to draw aggro , and a healing set. Whereas Anet originally saw the superiority of GC gear as a problem, now they see it as a good thing. And as with classes, instead of making content that encourages a diverse set of play, we have content that is optimized around having particular groups to maximize buffs and performance, leaving classes who don’t fit that mold (I.E. thief) to be left in the dust.

#5: The ascended requirements. Back when Anet said Ascended wouldn’t be required for anything, I took their word for it, and then continued to not make ascended gear, instead spending my cash on other things like alternate armor sets and outfits. Now suddenly I’m supposed to have full ascended gear, and to get the weapons alone for my characters it is going to cost several thousand gold, let alone how long it’ll take to get the laurels for the ascended trinkets, rings, and amulets. I am simply not rich enough to take my characters into the raids.

So in short, I can never have the “skill”, I don’t have the time, the people, or the money, and I have ethical problems with how raids are made. To be frank, if the raiding community is anything like the dungeon community of old, then they’re an insufferable bunch who will make the whole thing unwelcoming to everybody but themselves; exactly how they like it.