Guild Wars 2

It’s really primitive to have 2 Phalanx Warrior and 2 Druids just so everyone will get the buffs. half of the raid group is concentrated in support. We Should get only 1 Chronomancer Tank, 1 Phalanx Warrior, 1 Druid and 7 DPSers/6 DPSers+1 Revenant.
Why other games can afford it and this game can’t.
This game has a great builds system but the raid support is pretty primitive. In World of Warcraft ya can buff 40 people.

It was a conscious decision to limit buffs to 5-6 players.

why would they do it? I don’t enjoy looking for a lot of support.

For a past discussion on this topic

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3jhf4t/a_plea_to_the_devs_to_make_raid_buff_sharing/

As it stands right now we have more variety to raid comps than we would if we were to have 10 man buffs, since once you got down to it you would just have comps that brought 1 of every worthwhile support and then rest would just be filled with what ever the best dps was for that given slot.
We have some of that issue now however because you can only buff 5~6 people you can end up with comps where one part of the party has a condition focus on support and the other has a power focus on support. With 10 man group buffs you have less diversity in builds since there would always only be 1 build.
Raid comps as they stand are not that far apart from each other,
442, 541, 55 and to a lesser extent 721/6211 have compare-able clear times on bosses within ~1.5 mins generally on kill times so there isn’t really that much of a gripe since there are more people who do raids only kill the boss for the loot and not for the actual challenge like qt does.
Not to mention at the end of the day more often than not problems stem from players or methods rather than from over all party comp since all bosses currently can be cleared with 6 players some as few as 4 which means there is tons of room to run literally what ever you want so long as you get the job done. The only issue being that the longer a boss goes on the more likely someone is going to screw up so it’s generally better for consistency to push for better clear times and better comps to try and avoid the eventual mess up.

There’s no best DPS since each boss has mechanics. It’s really primitive to make it 5 people buff just to force that ideology of different composition which i don’t see any different. People still take chrono druid and warr. so what’s the point. It’s really stupid decision anet made while all other games can buff entire raid which can have variety of compositions.

Draco.9480:

There’s no best DPS since each boss has mechanics. It’s really primitive to make it 5 people buff just to force that ideology of different composition which i don’t see any different. People still take chrono druid and warr. so what’s the point. It’s really stupid decision anet made while all other games can buff entire raid which can have variety of compositions.

Perhaps, but ratios vary. So comps can still feel different even with the same general professions.

because support in GW2 is a fundamentally different mechanic than it is in other games, and its a role that people like to fill

Draco.9480:

In World of Warcraft ya can buff 40 people.

if you prefer wow’s mechanics, play wow instead

I would rather not have that… Such a huge power creep for raids and WvW. It’s better to have somewhat balanced content than stuff that’s fallen off the curve. Dungeons shared this fate when elite specs were introduced and now they are such a faceroll and boring. Would be a shame if the same happened to raids this early.

Boon share has already destroyed WvW and you want it to be more broken? Hellz no.

Even WoW raids require multiple tanks and healers.

if they do that, they will have to buff the boss to double the hp. because even now it is quite strong already.

You can go with 1 Chrono, 1 PS, 1 Druid and 1 Rev and do it perfectly fine.

Sarrs.4831:

because support in GW2 is a fundamentally different mechanic than it is in other games, and its a role that people like to fill

Draco.9480:

In World of Warcraft ya can buff 40 people.

if you prefer wow’s mechanics, play wow instead

here’s a kitten who defends the game the way it is.
It’s about making the game better and to give critics.

Talindra.4958:

if they do that, they will have to buff the boss to double the hp. because even now it is quite strong already.

so adding another dpsers means to double the hp? do the math please.

Vargamonth.2047:

You can go with 1 Chrono, 1 PS, 1 Druid and 1 Rev and do it perfectly fine.

Each one of ‘em still buffs 5 people so what’s the point.

Pompeia.5483:

Boon share has already destroyed WvW and you want it to be more broken? Hellz no.

Even WoW raids require multiple tanks and healers.

huh?
first of all i meant in raids for 10 people.
WvW should be 10 people boon share as well. If ya don’t like it in wvw then we could get a mastery to give boons to 10 people only in raids.
In wow ya need 2 tanks cuz ya tank 2 bosses or boss requires 2 tanks. need more healers because bosses are more deadly.

before jumping into conclusion op no no look outside the box.

Draco.9480:

here’s a kitten who defends the game the way it is.
It’s about making the game better and to give critics.

not an argument

The OP wants the standard for how buffs work to shift from the dungeon/PvP model to raid configuration. However, this would have no effect on FotM/Dungeons/PvP, would have minimal impact in open PvE, and would have a negative impact on Wvw, where boon sharing is already too easy. In raids, it would negatively impact players who want to play something other than the max DPS professions, while the benefit would likely be a very small gain in clear times for maxed out groups.

This change would also foster the perception that raids are ANet’s fair-haired child, at the expense of everything else. Whether this is true or not, there’s already too much perception that raids have had a negative impact on the game.

No, thanks.

IndigoSundown.5419:

The OP wants the standard for how buffs work to shift from the dungeon/PvP model to raid configuration. However, this would have no effect on FotM/Dungeons/PvP, would have minimal impact in open PvE, and would have a negative impact on Wvw, where boon sharing is already too easy. In raids, it would negatively impact players who want to play something other than the max DPS professions, while the benefit would likely be a very small gain in clear times for maxed out groups.

This change would also foster the perception that raids are ANet’s fair-haired child, at the expense of everything else. Whether this is true or not, there’s already too much perception that raids have had a negative impact on the game.

No, thanks.

People are more limited when there’s a 2nd Phalanx that takes a spot or a revenant.
1 Druid can’t be fully efficient when he only empowers 5 people instead 10. Chrono is also not fully efficient when most of his buffs are for 5 people.
There would be more variety in 10 boon share. it has no impact on wvw.
it should specific to raids.
ya could take a condi druid and auromancer ele healer instead healer druid.
It’d make:
1 tank=chrono/guard/warrior/necro
1 healer=druid/ele/necro/guard
1 support=dh/chrono/rev/druid+ps viper/ps zerk
dps=warrior, dh, thief, engi, druid, ele, necro.

Problem with this suggestion is the added DPS slots solves nothing in terms of variety and will just make the raids easier than they already are.

everything you say is already possible.
play f squad and you only “need” 1 ps who can fully buff his other 6 people in his subgroup without bigger problems.

or you take a commanders chrono and you don’t need a revenant anymore.
or you take a healer ele….if you are bolt enough, that heal ele can even tank at the same time.

you try to argument on the wrong side. that all is prossible without setting buffs up to 10 people, its the people that don’t experiment and follow like blind sheep.
people who just want their weekly clear for loot instead of having a bit of fun outside from that.

there are already different squad options (4/4/2, 7/3/1, 5/5, 5/4/1, 4/4/1/1….just to name a few) and 9 bosses where you can go with differend classes and some are stronger then others. so where is the problem. there definitly is enough variety.

you should rather search for the right people, instead of writing storys in the forums.
boons to 10 people would make the raid way too easy for 10 man.

…and just to add it: i met already ig through pugging 6 different guilds wich don’t raid with the standart setup and they don’t care that they aren’t 100% meta, so there is absolutly no problem with that. you just gotta find the right people….switching the boonshare would just free some dmg spots where people just want the very best dmg class and nothing would change (in pugs).

SeventhGrave.7896:

Problem with this suggestion is the added DPS slots solves nothing in terms of variety and will just make the raids easier than they already are.

^this , nothing more to say here

• Raids would be easier with this change, necessitating major rebalances for which the team doesn’t have time.
• There would be reduced team diversity because you’d pick 1 of every relevant support type and then fill the rest with DPS. Fewer support players is bad in this case.
• Changing boon share across all game modes breaks balance in places like WvW. Making it PvE specific breaks open world. Making it raid specific breaks consistency.

This will never and should never be changed.

Rising Dusk.2408:

• Raids would be easier with this change, necessitating major rebalances for which the team doesn’t have time.
• There would be reduced team diversity because you’d pick 1 of every relevant support type and then fill the rest with DPS. Fewer support players is bad in this case.
• Changing boon share across all game modes breaks balance in places like WvW. Making it PvE specific breaks open world. Making it raid specific breaks consistency.

This will never and should never be changed.

I will give you point 1 but concerning point 2 and 3:
- If you made it so the boss actually hit really hard and needed to be tanked by someone who is spec’d to tank instead of just having the lowest DPS (chrono/heal) tank you would actually be adding something new to raids so the extra spots gained by easier sharing of boons would not be going to DPS only.
- Open world PvE is already a joke so you can’t really break it and I’m pretty sure if Veteran killer/camp capper/ruin capper/dolyak slayer didn’t exist most people wouldn’t know WvW existed. Not to mention for WvW 10 man boon share would let 10 man groups take out larger groups easier imo if they are more skilled.

Draco.9480:

Vargamonth.2047:

You can go with 1 Chrono, 1 PS, 1 Druid and 1 Rev and do it perfectly fine.

Each one of ‘em still buffs 5 people so what’s the point.

It depends on the group setup you use.
If you go 2/7/1, for example, rev using dumplings (plus chrono share) + PS is enough to keep 25 might on every character. EA form the PS will never get Healer, Chrono an Rev, but can still affect all your 7 man group as long as there’s some little movement since it applies to 5 people every 3 seconds and lasts for 9. Banner spread would be worse as it applies every 6 seconds.
The Druid won’t be able to buff as much as a double druid config, but that’s obviously the coste of using another DPS class over a support one: less support but more base damage. You can also play 2-8 to ensure ranger buffs hit the DPS group at the cost of healing priority over the 2 man subgroup and the druid competing for the warrior buffs.

DPS requeriments are low enough to allow many different compositions. Some of them might be better than others on paper, but in the end is up to you to choose the one you prefer based on the classes you have or want to play.
Making support affect 10 people doesn’t change anything at all. You’ll ALWAYS get a PS, a Chrono, a Rev and a Druid because it would be stupid to not use them, then the DPSers whose utility seems good for the specific fight mechanic (condi ones for VG, eles for things like shard/orb clearing, …) and finally N characters on whatever seems to be the best DPS for the encounter. So, instead of seeing things like double druid or double PS we’d see things like 6 eles or 4 thieves.

To be fair I kinda agree with the OP, I find it kinda odd that it only spreads to 5 in PvE. Obviously limit it to 5 in WvW (nothing needs to be balanced around Open world, open world should be w/e).

By making it easier I would argue that it opens up more opportunities for other classes to be included in various builds bc it is no longer required to have 8 classes of your 10 man party being taken up so you can provide adequate boons to the group. Yes it could backfire and cause people to take only dps classes but imo if dps is risen for the group by taking more dps classes then the remaining slots need less dps to actually remain competitive in finishing the raid.

It is an interesting discussion but I don’t have a real horse in the race for this one. I do raid but whether or not it is changed matters very little to me so don’t attack me for having a different opinion.

Draco.9480:

It’s really primitive to have 2 Phalanx Warrior and 2 Druids just so everyone will get the buffs. half of the raid group is concentrated in support. We Should get only 1 Chronomancer Tank, 1 Phalanx Warrior, 1 Druid and 7 DPSers/6 DPSers+1 Revenant.
Why other games can afford it and this game can’t.
This game has a great builds system but the raid support is pretty primitive. In World of Warcraft ya can buff 40 people.

I completely agree.
The current system is silly, to say the least.
Extend buffs to 10 ppl, pls.

its just a historical issue. the core game was designed to never have more than 5 ppl in your group. They got this down from 8 at gw (1), where you needed to look for specific roles named 2 monks 1 sa (tank), which were hard to find sometimes. The idea behind this was to be undependend on what class someone plays, you can always pick him.
We all know, this didn’t last long, since some classes deal more dmg than others or grant you more buffs than others, which you do not want not to take (chrono quickness). Raids got later in the game, which was build on this 5person cap, so it stays to keep bugs low, which may be ok.

The real issue is, that you still need specific classes to do specific roles. You could use an ele + thief to continuously stack might, or 2 rev, but why wasting two spots, when you just need one? You could use a ele as heal, but why waste his dmg potential to spam heals while loosing all the dmg buffs a ranger provides without any cost? You could run 5 guards for might fury and quickness, but why wasting spots for a class that deals lower dmg?

So to solve the problem, you dont need to cap everything on 10 ppl. You need to make more than one class be able to compareable support the team. By now, this only works with ele and thief as damage dealers. Other classes just provide to unique buffs noone else could fill.

Senario.2038:

By making it easier I would argue that it opens up more opportunities for other classes to be included in various builds bc it is no longer required to have 8 classes of your 10 man party being taken up so you can provide adequate boons to the group. Yes it could backfire and cause people to take only dps classes but imo if dps is risen for the group by taking more dps classes then the remaining slots need less dps to actually remain competitive in finishing the raid.

The questions then become:

1. Which professions are taken now only because of their ability to supply meta-desired boons and would these professions have fewer meta slots as a result?
2. Would a meta really allow for less than the best DPS possible given their role from any raid member because there are greater numbers of high DPS professions?

Aaaaaaaand, there goes wvw. XD

In a raid group the buffs spill over to the next people after 5 are buffed already. So if 5 people hit might cap the leftover might skulls over to the rest of the party correct?

TheShniper.1852:

In a raid group the buffs spill over to the next people after 5 are buffed already. So if 5 people hit might cap the leftover might skulls over to the rest of the party correct?

Nope, even if someone has 25 might it will simply overwrite the oldest existing might stack with the new one even if it has a shorter duration.
As it stands in both a 442 and 721 comp the revenant is constantly over buffed by the chronomancer which has lead guilds like qt to not like running a rev since it “wastes quickness and alacrity.”

Xcorpdog.2840:

Nope, even if someone has 25 might it will simply overwrite the oldest existing might stack with the new one even if it has a shorter duration.
As it stands in both a 442 and 721 comp the revenant is constantly over buffed by the chronomancer which has lead guilds like qt to not like running a rev since it “wastes quickness and alacrity.”

How does the cap on quickness work in this case?
Is it max duration of quickness that can be applied at any one time? So if you are 2 seconds under your max and you get another 3 seconds applied then you lose 1 second? What is the max for quickness btw?

Stap.1025:

How does the cap on quickness work in this case?
Is it max duration of quickness that can be applied at any one time? So if you are 2 seconds under your max and you get another 3 seconds applied then you lose 1 second? What is the max for quickness btw?

Think of it like a pile. You have 9 boxes stacked up. Each time you try to add a new box, the bottom most one is taken away, regardless of its size. If you add a 1sec of quickness and the first applied stack is 5seconds, you end up losing 4 secs.

On the other hand, if you only had 8 boxes in the pile, adding 1 more second of quickness just adds the box on top with no loss.

I’m under the assumption that quickness stacks up to 9 times(~36 seconds), though I’ve been told someone once had over 50seconds and haven’t reproduced it yet.

SlyDevil.3952:

Stap.1025:

How does the cap on quickness work in this case?
Is it max duration of quickness that can be applied at any one time? So if you are 2 seconds under your max and you get another 3 seconds applied then you lose 1 second? What is the max for quickness btw?

Think of it like a pile. You have 9 boxes stacked up. Each time you try to add a new box, the bottom most one is taken away, regardless of its size. If you add a 1sec of quickness and the first applied stack is 5seconds, you end up losing 4 secs.

On the other hand, if you only had 8 boxes in the pile, adding 1 more second of quickness just adds the box on top with no loss.

I’m under the assumption that quickness stacks up to 9 times(~36 seconds), though I’ve been told someone once had over 50seconds and haven’t reproduced it yet.

Now, this is silly and theoretical, but, 3 guardians 2 mesmers. 3 guardians supply a maxed out boon duration 10s Quickness to the group for an initial 3 stacks/30s quickness, mesmer A bounces 3 additional stacks for a total of 6 stacks on everyone now, Mesmer B bounces back their 6stacks on top for 9 stacks having the additional 3 they could have provided go to waste.

The cap is not a duration cap but a stack cap, right? It’s like blasting swiftness in WvW trains provides a longer swiftness coverage than lining up Symbol of Swiftness.

I have seen folks in WvW with 50s of quickness. It might just be harder in raids because of the different comp and fewer people.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Senario.2038:

By making it easier I would argue that it opens up more opportunities for other classes to be included in various builds bc it is no longer required to have 8 classes of your 10 man party being taken up so you can provide adequate boons to the group. Yes it could backfire and cause people to take only dps classes but imo if dps is risen for the group by taking more dps classes then the remaining slots need less dps to actually remain competitive in finishing the raid.

The questions then become:

1. Which professions are taken now only because of their ability to supply meta-desired boons and would these professions have fewer meta slots as a result?
2. Would a meta really allow for less than the best DPS possible given their role from any raid member because there are greater numbers of high DPS professions?

To be honest that would be assuming that of course they take a different class as a result of something not being needed as much. I do think that it would open up more slots to run w/e so long as you run xx amount of good dps.

These are questions I can’t really answer but I would hope so as with less support classes a party would be more squishy with dps. But because they have that extra dps they can take more varied support classes if that makes sense.

Top level will have full dps probably beyond support but pugs will have a bit more freedom to choose a wide array of classes imo.

Maybe test it? 10 ppl buffs for open world and PvE, 5 for PvP and WvW.