Guild Wars 2

So i just came back to dungeon after like a year… and i realise there’s this perpetual fear climate blanketing all the dungeon runs i did.

everyone is like very afraid of playing and enjoying themselves, instead it’s about yea dps , don’t screw up etc..

people kick people for next to stupid little reasons like failing to jump to the ledge at the start of SE1… wut?

i think anet needs to look at the dungeon climate, it’s not promoting enjoyable play at all.

Your preferences are not facts.

I rarely have this kind of experience. Maybe you rub ppl the wrong way and that’s why they kick you. Maybe you join LFG that ask for experienced ppl are you not. Maybe you are just fine, but really unlucky and are joining all the jerks group.

Huh, who is supposed to be experiencing fear? And what are they fearing?

They only fear i have at that of dungeons is that one of our party may have left their brain at the door or otherwise not know what they are doing and try to YOLO the mechanics.

But more often than not, everyone performs fine.

Thaddeus.4891:

I rarely have this kind of experience.

Gotta agree I haven’t had that experience either.

The only fear I have in dungeons is bads joining hard dungeons like Arah, failing miserably and forcing me to kick them, then coming back and kicking me and negating the dungeon that I just 90% soloed as retaliation.

Bads being kicked for being bad is nothing new, if anything they have it better than ever because now the party leader can’t even tell you to carry your own weight without risking you griefing him.

Zackie.8923:

So i just came back to dungeon after like a year… and i realise there’s this perpetual fear climate blanketing all the dungeon runs i did.

everyone is like very afraid of playing and enjoying themselves, instead it’s about yea dps , don’t screw up etc..

people kick people for next to stupid little reasons like failing to jump to the ledge at the start of SE1… wut?

i think anet needs to look at the dungeon climate, it’s not promoting enjoyable play at all.

I think it’s probably all in your mind brain. Perhaps it is only you who feels fearful. Perhaps there’s a reason for that outside of blaming other people.

I stumble sometimes on people how need to get off their high horses. Just don’t join groups with preposterous description in the lfg.

In this game, there are casuals, veterans and speed clearers groups when it comes to clear dungeons. They all have different way to play and have fun. You should just avoid joining groups whose definition of fun does not match yours.

I PUG 10-15 different dungeon paths a day almost always with a different group for each path. I am in no way fearful, and I have a blast doing it. Perhaps your own neuroses are the source.

so funny so many replies involve distancing themselves from this negative situation , seems like the fear climate is real.

getting defensive and say things like " oh yeah i know my stuff, i don’t get kicked, i got brains etc" only shows what kind of community the dungeon runners have become.

the fear is real, thats why people get defensive straight away.

@OP

I don’t think that there is an air of fear in dungeons. Having pugged almost all of my dungeon runs in my GW2 career, most everyone is super cool. The problem is when certain types of players expect specific ways of doing things in dungeons and if you don’t meet that standard you get kicked. This is only generally in the special requirements LFGs. Casuals don’t have those problems, and thus have nothing to fear.
I can count on 2 fingers the amount of times I’ve been kicked from a dungeon or fractal. I’m not a meta player, I don’t know all the dungeons well enough to know exactly when to dodge, or what order certain mobs need to be killed, or whatever.

Don’t want to be fearful? Start an any welcome casual group, or join one, and have fun. Don’t rage if someone dies or the party wipes. Don’t call out the guardians for not using reflects, or the ranger standing back with his long bow while his bear auto attacks. Just relax and have fun. You’ll find a very different dungeon climate then the one you feel is present.

Zackie.8923:

so funny so many replies involve distancing themselves from this negative situation , seems like the fear climate is real.

getting defensive and say things like " oh yeah i know my stuff, i don’t get kicked, i got brains etc" only shows what kind of community the dungeon runners have become.

the fear is real, thats why people get defensive straight away.

Going over this thread, I don’t see a single post that I would characterize as “getting defensive”. I mean, that you even feel people are getting defensive only strengthens the argument that you’re simply being neurotic.

From your post, it seems like you saw someone get kicked, got scared, and projected this insecurity on the rest of the dungeon community. That community, which is far more familiar with the overall climate than yourself, is simply responding that they don’t feel the same way, so some self reflection is probably in order. Remember, most of the people on this sub-forum have been running these same dungeons for years now. That initial anxiety of running a dungeon for the first time is long gone.

Here are some tips:

Don’t join groups with requirements. If the LFG listing has “zerk”, “exp”, “AP [n]k+”, or “no ranger/necro”, don’t join until you meet those requirements and are comfortable with the most common strategies for that path.

Speak up and ask questions. When you do join a group, make sure to let people know you’re new to the path or don’t remember it very well. People who play this game are generally exceptionally nice and helpful, more so than any other MMO I’ve ever played.

Watch up-to-date videos for the dungeon path you’re getting ready to run. It makes a world of difference when you know what’s coming.

Finally, relax and have fun. It’s a video game.

You encounter a “fear climate” in every dungeon run you do, yet every single dungeon you do has exactly one thing in common: you.

Perhaps everyone else is not the source of your problem?

Zackie.8923:

So i just came back to dungeon after like a year… and i realise there’s this perpetual fear climate blanketing all the dungeon runs i did.

everyone is like very afraid of playing and enjoying themselves, instead it’s about yea dps , don’t screw up etc..

people kick people for next to stupid little reasons like failing to jump to the ledge at the start of SE1… wut?

i think anet needs to look at the dungeon climate, it’s not promoting enjoyable play at all.

As many well know, fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.

P.S. I’m not just being cheeky. Take a minute and think about it. It’s your choice what sort of “climate” reaction you’re going to have. If you want to be afraid, you’ll be afraid. It’s not surprising you’re having uncomfortable runs when you yourself are on edge the whole time.

Relax, communicate, and check your attitude at the door. Remember, most of the time, you will only find what you bring in.

Zackie.8923:

So i just came back to dungeon after like a year… and i realise there’s this perpetual fear climate blanketing all the dungeon runs i did.

everyone is like very afraid of playing and enjoying themselves, instead it’s about yea dps , don’t screw up etc..

people kick people for next to stupid little reasons like failing to jump to the ledge at the start of SE1… wut?

i think anet needs to look at the dungeon climate, it’s not promoting enjoyable play at all.

When you don’t jump to the ledge in S1, you aggro those very annoying waves of asura that significantly lengthen the run time of the dungeon.

People have been doing these same dungeons for 2.5 years, understandably they’re sick of them and want to get them over with so they get their gold.

And really, the only dungeon you might find psychopathic ragers on is Arah and to a lesser extent fractal 50.

If you do happen to get a rager, just carry a polite conversation to bait his inevitable insults — while arenanet does not ban people for more egregious behavior, they do reliably ban people who you report for profanity so it’s a very easy way of baiting toxic people into a ban.

Actually you can skip the first barrier and if you move in far enough the first wave doesn’t aggro you and you can cut down on the SE p1 run time but pugs don’t know that. Like you can start fighting the golem and the ads before the cutscene even pops up and the first wave spawns.

Zackie.8923:

so funny so many replies involve distancing themselves from this negative situation , seems like the fear climate is real.

getting defensive and say things like " oh yeah i know my stuff, i don’t get kicked, i got brains etc" only shows what kind of community the dungeon runners have become.

the fear is real, thats why people get defensive straight away.

NOOOOOOOOOOO. Guys he discovered the conspiracy. He know that our overlord is watching us in game and on the forum so we need to watch out what we do and what we write in a constant fear atmosphere.

lmao. For instance, PUGging in FFXIV is faaaar more stressing than in GW2. I mean Coils and some of harder EX primals, of course.
And don’t even let me get started on MOBA games.

I’d rather say that the atmosphere in GW2 PUGs is rather amicable.

To counter fear I suggest stun break and/or stability. Very helpful, confirmed info.

Don’t ever use stab against necromancers

Tell me about it. I’ve been pugging for the past 1 year.
Now I sleep at most 3h per night, have nightmares and I’m having panic attacks whenever I’m around more than 3 people.
At the subway I hear voices whispering “stack..stack..” like some twisted demonic..evil..stuff!

I’m not leaving house since many years, too afraid of some car FGS rushing me against a corner.

I too am afraid that Anet will never implement real challenging instanced content into the game. Not even mention dungeons.

Zackie.8923:

So i just came back to dungeon after like a year… and i realise there’s this perpetual fear climate blanketing all the dungeon runs i did.

everyone is like very afraid of playing and enjoying themselves, instead it’s about yea dps , don’t screw up etc..

people kick people for next to stupid little reasons like failing to jump to the ledge at the start of SE1… wut?

i think anet needs to look at the dungeon climate, it’s not promoting enjoyable play at all.

There is no “fear climate” in dungeons, OP, sPvP does have it on the other hand…

But what do you expect, with necros being so good at killing players, while being so bad in dungeons

Necros good at killing players? Are we playing the same spvp here? Last I checked necro were bottom tier in spvp as well.

in fact they are almost everywhere bottom tier. even in wvw roaming I can’t escape a fight from basically everyone. every class has leaps or ‘blinks’. our only blink skill has 1 sec cast time, gg. supposedly i should stay and destroy everyone on my path while being an immobile class, too bad I have no stability/dodgeskills/blocks/invuln. 10/10 for design

With Grenth away and therefore unexisting resurrection, necros can be considere bottom tier even in roleplaying. Oh my…. #takei_impression

I always get at least 17 kills/20 kills in Courtyard whenever there is a daily Necro winner.

Last I checked, the ultimate indomitable team in NA has a necro in their roster – The Abjured/ Noscoc.

Hi all,,

Am just about to do my first dungeon today, and the idea of fear interests me as I know a lot of people poo poo it.

Having played WOW for 6 years from nub to GM I have done my fair share of learning hard boss tactics.

Also being an old bugger with a fair amount of life experience I think the biggest cause of fail in many a complex dungeon/instance situation is not lack of skill/stupidity/crap gear/ pc etc, but people not knowing what to do and being to afraid to ask for fear of ridicule.

I know it’s all very easy to turn around and say “well you should have read up on the tactics first, I have” as is having a good groan when someone seems particularly inept. But I honestly found when learning some of this stuff that if a spirit of be quiet could be directed at the know it all negative players and a spirit of ask when don’t know implemented instead it just created a win win situation.

When I did see this happen it just amazed me how many people were “winging” it and how many (myself included) didn’t actually know about tactics, which = wipes.

Now you could ask,, whats the point, if someone can’t be assed to learnt the tactics themselves and/or is a crap player, why should I bother ?

My answer is there are far more players out there who rely on other’s to do their learning for them for whatever reason. For sure that can be annoying for those who do take the time but that is the way things are in mmorpg’s. Creating more interest for the game in these players is key I think. Success seemed to be a very good way and it also imbued a sense of loyalty not to mention changing a fearful situation into a fun one.

Imho just taking a more patient approach can pay big dividends in the long run and ultimately you end up playing with more, and better players.

Iris Ng.9845:

I always get at least 17 kills/20 kills in Courtyard whenever there is a daily Necro winner.

Last I checked, the ultimate indomitable team in NA has a necro in their roster – The Abjured/ Noscoc.

Yeah, and they lost the tournament because the necro got trained to the ground. Check the amount of necromancers on competitive tournament teams relative to the other classes before you come out with this. Similarly, one of the best teams has supcutie, a mesmer, who admits he’d be better off as a thief but he plays mesmer because he wants to. It might just be the same case with Nos, he doesn’t want to be forced to play another class even if he’s at a disadvantage.

An engineer is a better condi build than a necromancer by far in pvp. It’s not that hard to check the stats and class and build representation.

== Off- topic ahead ==

To be fair, the first three matches between oRNG vs. RIP were extremely close with RIP went ahead in a general field advantage. RIP plays for three points while oRNG plays for team fight. The reason Nos was trained too much is because both 5G and Toker are not enough to peel for him and when they rotated either Wakkey or Phantaram in the team fight, they were both outplayed and outrotated. 5G’s engi left an insignificant impression while Tage played smart with his perfect execution of CC. One of the reasons RIP lost is because they don’t have equally matched opponents to scrims. When Nos came to EU to scrim with TCG, he played his necro really well and the match always ended close against EU top-tier players (Krazer, Drazeh, Chosen Sins, etc). Even if the Abjured lost against oRNG, they still remain an undefeated tiger in NA. Keep that in mind.

It has nothing to do with a class’ strength that makes it fall out of meta. In my opinions, it’s more of how good the strategy was built around their team’s comp and also the individual’s strength.

Subcutie had to roll thief instead of his usual mesmer because his team didn’t work well with a mesmer. Look at Misha of 55 HP Monk, their team beats oRNG frequently in ESL weekly. Helseth and TCG is also a good representation of a team built surrounding a mesmer as well.

LuciusEsox.7645:

My answer is there are far more players out there who rely on other’s to do their learning for them for whatever reason. For sure that can be annoying for those who do take the time but that is the way things are in mmorpg’s. Creating more interest for the game in these players is key I think. Success seemed to be a very good way and it also imbued a sense of loyalty not to mention changing a fearful situation into a fun one.

Imho just taking a more patient approach can pay big dividends in the long run and ultimately you end up playing with more, and better players.

Most people have been helping for months and years. I will help some days (and put up general pug4lyf LFGs), but other days, I want people that have a vague clue about how to play their class. I don’t want to teach everyday in the hope that someday I get a good group together. When people are unable to follow along with simple directions when they don’t understand the encounter, they get kicked.

If you say, “Hey I don’t know this dungeon well,” and we ask you to bring a wall on your guardian to make the content easier, I expect that you’ll do it. I don’t expect you to know exactly where to place it without us telling you, but to put it down on the boss/whatever when we ask for it.

That said, if you don’t follow the LFG description, it is your fault that you get kicked (I almost always state “Wear pink or kick,” and follow through). The more times I have to deal with people unable to read on any given week, the less I want to help teach others.

There is no fear involved in running dungeons at all.

From the sounds of it, you joined multiple dungeon groups that explicitly stated what they were after, and you joined them when not filling the requirements the group was after.

Many times i start a dungeon group with the tag “anyone welcome”, and these groups fill up instantly with people from all areas of the game, people with 10k+ AP running condi builds to people with 1k+ ap still gearing up and wearing rares, i never have any problems with these types of dungeons because I know what to expect in the dungeon run.

I’ve had hundreds of people join my dungeon groups and say “First time here, hope it’s not a problem” too, and i never have any problems with them, 9 times out of 10 these players perform better than those whom you’d expect to be experienced.

BUT. There are times when I just want a quick clean run, and I’ll ask for things like “Experienced players only, 4k+ ap” is it wrong of me? No, i don’t think so, 4k+ ap to me shows you have experience with the game and are familiar with the mechanics, so to me, that leads me to believe I’ll get a smooth run, this isn’t always the case, but it’s a method.
Now, if you join this group with less than 4k AP, you can bet I’m going to kick you, because you didn’t read.

Tolerance is out of fashion.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

The only fear I have in dungeons is bads joining hard dungeons like Arah, failing miserably and forcing me to kick them, then coming back and kicking me and negating the dungeon that I just 90% soloed as retaliation.

when bads force you to kick them you arent as good as you think you are.

Everyday I fear for my life because people either don’t read lfg or do not even know how to make one

I never kick people just for making a mistake. That can happen to everybody, even the most experienced ones. But if someone comes to the dungeon unprepared, he deserves to be kicked. There is plenty of videos and guides out there everyone can use, but if someone is too selfish or lazy to spend a little bit of his time to learn the path properly, I see no reason why should I carry them. Also, bringing right build is something I don’t even ask for, I take it as automatic. When I see guard autoattacking with his staff and not laying down WoR, it’s time for a kick.
Btw… jumping to the ledge in SE P1 is something only stupid pugs do, good groups are already past this old meaningless strategy. Again, it really requires everyone to be prepared and do his job in order to achieve some efficiency in clearing dungeon paths and getting what we all do it for – the completion rewards. Seriously, after over 2 years nobody is interested in immersion, npc dialogues or wasting too much time in dungeons. Try to look at it from our perspective.

NoTrigger.8396:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

The only fear I have in dungeons is bads joining hard dungeons like Arah, failing miserably and forcing me to kick them, then coming back and kicking me and negating the dungeon that I just 90% soloed as retaliation.

when bads force you to kick them you arent as good as you think you are.

While I HATE kicking, and generally refuse to do it, I don’t think it’s a matter of have to as want to. I’ve done a few SE1 runs where I just left after Nokk even though a couple more minutes and i’d have my credit the groups simply made it unfun for me. The only joy I get out of that dungeon is going quickly and blowing things up, when the group isn’t capable or screws that up it’s not that I can’t still pull out a win it’s that I simply don’t want to play anymore. So personally I just leave those, others kick to prevent it.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Tolerance is out of fashion.

I personally don’t believe in tolerance. Of course I tend to view everything in black and white. So tolerance to me is more akin to compromise, which really isn’t a good thing. (In some situations)

But to address the point of the conversation.
Now no fear in running dungeons. At least on my part. Amd any joining my groups also have nothing to fear. If someone gets kicked in my party, i tend to kick the one who kicked, or leave. Not dealing with that sort of nonsense.

NoTrigger.8396:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

The only fear I have in dungeons is bads joining hard dungeons like Arah, failing miserably and forcing me to kick them, then coming back and kicking me and negating the dungeon that I just 90% soloed as retaliation.

when bads force you to kick them you arent as good as you think you are.

Truer words have never been spoken

Now that’s just insulting.

Why it’s always the “elitists” who have change their ways or use their time so others can keep on with their zero effort style? Yes, I know the horrors new guys are facing. They may have to create their own group, perhaps even open chat and write something.

But sure, once Anet starts paying me I can go to hold everyone’s hands.

I don’t think dungeons are toxic. Most of them go fairly well. It’s just that people don’t understand that MMO’s are made of different types of people. And some of those people are people who think their achievements in a videogame entitle them to treat all others as subhuman.

It’s no different from real life. Those people exist everywhere. Look into the military, or athletes, or even Nobel laureates in academia. Some are wonderful human beings, others not so much and just use their feats as social weapons.

What games like LoL are hiring psychologists for and looking into their design are ways to incentivize patience. GW2 could have a different type of karma system where people who are upvoted by those they run dungeons with, and with a bonus by being upvoted by accounts with smaller AP counts, would go a long way in fixing the nasty attitudes. You just need to reward the whole “don’t be a kittenty human being” part in games.

P.S. And there are just undeniable scenarios where it’s gone wrong. Dungeons made for specific lower levels being highly inaccessible to players of the appropriate level was just bad design.

At least a few of us don’t even want most of the general GW2 community because so many of them think they can walk right in with the same open world leeching lootstick mindset and get instant rewards.

The fact that they can go right back to open world loot pinatas is what keeps them from wanting the improve or seriously get into dungeon content.

Differences in completion times are not that insignificant, and it would be irrelevant to us even if they were. We don’t have fun when we are play with those sorts of people.

Dave.2536:

At least a few of us don’t even want most of the general GW2 community because so many of them think they can walk right in with the same open world leeching lootstick mindset and get instant rewards.

The fact that they can go right back to open world loot pinatas is what keeps them from wanting the improve or seriously get into dungeon content.

Differences in completion times are not that insignificant, and it would be irrelevant to us even if they were. We don’t have fun when we are play with those sorts of people.

“Those sort of people” is just the kind of language that even keeps them from wanting to improve and try to join the dungeon community. You don’t even know them and you’ve already condemned them with your assumptions.

When I was a noob I watched YouTube videos of the path I was about to do to learn the tactics and mechanics. Yes it takes some time but you do it once and you don’t make everyone else in the party suffer or risk getting kicked. And of course there may be some small differences from the YouTube video you pick (try to find a more current one) and what everyone actually ends up doing. But at least you will know basic boss mechanics and dungeon skips. Just saying…. It doesn’t take much effort. Also referring to the wiki for the a more detailed explanation of boss mechanics helps too.

If people just took the time to read the lfg post before joining, there would be nothing to fear. They bring it on themselves by clicking and joining the first group they see even though they do not have the lfg requirements. (specific level, experience, agony resist, etc)
What I would like to see:
When a player clicks on the join button in the lfg tool a confirmation window with the full lfg description pops up and asks “Are you sure you want to join this group?”

Zenith.7301:

“Those sort of people” is just the kind of language that even keeps them from wanting to improve and try to join the dungeon community. You don’t even know them and you’ve already condemned them with your assumptions.

They can scapegoat me for their own lack of initiative if they want, just like they can go back to mashing 1 on loot pinatas if they don’t want to put in some of their own initiative and work for rewards.

“I play how I want”
“I don’t have/use that skill”
“You’re too picky/elitist, it’s not a huge difference in my opinion”

I’ve seen enough of these people that I will do what I can to try to deter them from my parties before they actually join. Call it profiling or whatever, but I’m not going to cater to SJW whining in a game where everyone is on an almost even playing field and the only significant cost to changing oneself is the desire to do so.

It was never truly about the difference in efficiency, and always about the difference in attitude.

Muffin Nook.5923:

If people just took the time to read the lfg post before joining, there would be nothing to fear. They bring it on themselves by clicking and joining the first group they see even though they do not have the lfg requirements. (specific level, experience, agony resist, etc)
What I would like to see:
When a player clicks on the join button in the lfg tool a confirmation window with the full lfg description pops up and asks “Are you sure you want to join this group?”

Sometimes it’s not in the description.

Try for example joining a pug Arah p1/2 "speed’ (no such thing in pugs, what they usually mean is stealth run) as a Necromancer or Ranger. Try the same on fractal 50.

The fact is, you’ll likely never get kicked as soon as you join on an ele or warrior, ever.

I think those are the most obvious examples people cringe at. Or they get tired of waiting an extra 5-20 minutes because less people want to join the group with a necromancer, a ranger, a mesmer and a warrior versus the group with a thief, two eles, and warrior/guardian.

It’s really not such a mystery. GW2 is one of the most rage-ish PvE communities relatives to other MMO’s out there. In Wildstar you had people from the leading raiding guild worldwide, Enigma, helping strangers do attunements on their servers to be able to raid. I’ve seen people from Codex, Enigma, many top 5 guilds joining 5 man dungeons, not once a single one of them was sour or sociopathic.

The closest GW2 gets to this kind of community building is likely via WvW guilds.

Zenith.7301:

Try for example joining a pug Arah p1/2 "speed’ (no such thing in pugs, what they usually mean is stealth run) as a Necromancer or Ranger. Try the same on fractal 50.

I mean, I have done this repeatedly daily in Arah and Fractals L50 for over 2 years. The fact is, I’ve never been kicked from a group that hasn’t explicitly advertised “no necros” as a necro. I do get the “you’re not condi, right?” a bunch, but all I have to do is ping my weapon set and they’re fine. The biggest thing that has kept me from getting kicked is that I talk to people. Be a cool person and people will be more relaxed around you. It doesn’t hurt if you can solo half the bosses on your Necro to boot.

If there is a “fear climate” for dungeons and fractals, I surely haven’t seen it, and I’ve seen enough to feel pretty confident in saying that means it’s not out there. If you don’t read the LFG or aren’t very good at playing the game, obviously your mileage will vary.

Know why you have a hard time joining a group as a ranger or a necro?
You have to be able to play those professions really well to make up for their shortcomings while using very specific builds to make them even feasible in dungeons.
And yet every pug necro I see is usually using staff and scepter and using fear to scatter all the mobs. The rangers are usually camping longbow and clicking skill 4 off cooldown while not using frost spirit or spotter. There are exceptions where the necro is running dagger/dagger and the ranger is using frost spirit, spotter and actually using melee weapons. Too many pug mesmers run around with GS and use skill 5 at the dumbest times such as just as you engage a boss instead of letting icebow kitten first.
There are people that know how to run rangers, necro and mesmers effectively. But far too often in the pug lottery you will come up snake eyes if you let one of those professions join without knowing the person.
The same can be said for any profession really, its just all the other ones are more forgiving. A bad Engi will still give vulnerability stacks, a bad guardian still has aegis, bad ele has the conjures, etc.
You talk about people from other games willing to help others and what not. There are guilds dedicated to that stuff here in GW2. When I dungeon run I am there to make money as efficiently as possible. I am not there to teach Joe Bob how to play his profession or explain why he needs certain utilities and when to use them. From time to time I do help people when they have a lfg asking for someone who knows what to do. What you are describing in your posts isnt community: its entitlement. You expect everyone to help at the drop of a hat or to accept sub optimal players with sub optimal builds when people are trying to play the meta. They can learn like everyone else has by watching youtube, researching using google and asking more knowledgeable players from the various teaching guilds. (such as We Teach How We Want [Noob])