Guild Wars 2

Ok so i pug W1 every week and im wondering how everyone feels about it.

Last 2 weeks 2 different groups did the exact same thing. We kill VG with 2 mesmers, 2 druids, 2 ps, 2 necros and 2 eles.

We get to gors and they ask the necros to do to eles. I say i dont have one and i offer up thief or rev. Both weeks these 2 groups did this. SO this comp ideally to them would look like this 2mesmers, 4 eles, 2 ps, and 2 druids.

I have a guild mate who mains thief and doesnt even try to raid anymore since he like me has to pug it. Im not talking for experienced groups or static groups because you allow your guild members to run different things. The raid guild i am in only static raid because the new members they were letting in were making mistakes and they said “you cant kick guild members from a raid group” so they went back to the static group.

I cant sit here and speak about the raid meta with only 22 insights but this doesnt seem better.

Im really wondering if raids will be thing with the next expansion or in the next expansion the new spec line will be OP like the HOT spec lines and these current raids will become like the dungeons in core Tyria.

Its just something i thought i might bring up since just 2 months ago (before the halloween event) i was in a gors group that had 2 power engys and 1 ele and 1 thief. Though its a short time ( 2 weeks is not a good sample size but it just struck me) i just couldnt believe i ran into 2 pug groups who acted identical when it came to raids.

The ideal comp right now generally is 2 mesmers, 4 eles, 2 ps, and 2 druids. The ideal comp before the last balance patch was 1 mesmer, 1 rev, 4 eles, 2 ps, and 2 druids.

What you are remembering from before the balance patch was a deviation from meta. The reason you had 2 pug groups who acted identical is that they were both groups going for a meta comp. That group you were referencing from before was not. This is just a matter of different groups approaching raids in different ways. Some groups try to stay closer to meta than others and I don’t think the distribution of those groups has changed much.

It is true that some classes were hurt a bit by the patch, so things like necros might get asked to switch more often, but they are still perfectly viable for getting clears. Thieves are not as desirable because eles got buffed, but they are still very good options for a dps class. I would take an ele over a thief for gors, but that’s no different than before the patch because of the big hitbox. Thief is still very good for VG and Sab.

Essentially, I think you were right about sample size. You happened to get one group before the patch that was very off-meta, and two groups after that were very on-meta.

As for your other question, it seems very likely that there will continue to be development on raids far into the future. They seem to be developing and releasing as they complete things though, so I don’t know if they will necessarily be tied to an expansion, but there will be more raids. The next raid is certainly going to come out before the next expansion.

New specs will very likely introduce some element of power creep, but I think it is unlikely to be as pronounced as with HoT. If a spec is not better, then people just will not use it and things will stay the same. If it is better in some situation, then people will use it. However in order to use the new elite spec, you will have to not be using the HoT spec, so I would have to give up Druid to use whatever the new ranger spec is. HoT specs were super powerful because they could synergize with all existing trait lines, but any future specs will not be able to synergize with each other. This is why I think the power creep will be less. Eventually we’ll end up in a situation where rangers use expac 1, warriors use expac 3, eles use expac 2, etc. It seems unlikely that raids will become as easy as dungeons.

Fluffy.1932:

The ideal comp right now generally is 2 mesmers, 4 eles, 2 ps, and 2 druids. The ideal comp before the last balance patch was 1 mesmer, 1 rev, 4 eles, 2 ps, and 2 druids.

That’s the problem…..It should read as 1 tank/support, 1 dps/support, 4 dps, 2 dps/support/banners,etc. , 2 dps/heals.

Basically what I am trying to say is that the “4 eles” needs to be 4 dps, that’s all. And don’t say it can’t be done or whatever because it does get done, people have such a “meta mentality” that they can’t see past anything else.

Joxer.6024:

Basically what I am trying to say is that the “4 eles” needs to be 4 dps, that’s all. And don’t say it can’t be done or whatever because it does get done, people have such a “meta mentality” that they can’t see past anything else.

I agree that would be nice. Just out of curiosity, since GW2 is the first game where I dabble a bit in raids: is it the case in other games that there is no real preference for specific professions/classes that were designed for a certain role to take a certain spot in a raid, assuming adequate experience and gear? If so, why do you think the preference is so strong in this game and not in other ones?

In other games, WOW and SWTOR that I know for sure, they have whats called in the MMO world as the “holy trinity”, being a group has a tank, to hold aggro of the toughest mobs…a healer, to of course heal the group, and said tank…..and then your dps, damage dealers. Now, the role of dps many times is mixed with “ranged” and “melee”, and that’s for the different fight mechanics and such. Some fights you have to deal cc to the trash mobs while fighting the “big guy”, so a ranged dps with cc skill is very handy while the melee group beat face.
GW2 does not have this trinity, and that’s what was and is still a big draw for a lot of folks. Many have said that they don’t want it although with raids now its almost a given that its still there, just not as defined. In GW2 groups still look for a “tank”, only just highest toughness, no aggro mechanics here. They also look for healers and then support dps. So while not a cookie cutter look of the “trinity”, its there. But what is also different in this game is the builds and classes and the exclusion of them. Never have I seen a game where a class that was dps by design not viable for raids. Now, this is strictly from the community point of view and not game design, as any class is completely capable of doing the content. Its just that folks don’t want them, that’s all.
Hope that helps somewhat and maybe someone else can step in with more info on GW2 as I myself have only just come back to it (2 yrs now). Cheers!

Galespark.7835:

Just out of curiosity, since GW2 is the first game where I dabble a bit in raids: is it the case in other games that there is no real preference for specific professions/classes that were designed for a certain role to take a certain spot in a raid, assuming adequate experience and gear? If so, why do you think the preference is so strong in this game and not in other ones?

In other games you select your role and not your specific build, you ask for a tank, not for a chrono tank, you ask for a healer, not a Druid, you ask for a DPS, not a Staff Elementalist, you ask for offensive support, not for a PS Warrior, and so on. This wasn’t the case in GW2 because they didn’t want defined roles in this game and it worked while there were no defined roles. But now with Raids you need more defined roles and instead of spreading the roles around on multiple builds, they made very few builds deal with each role.

As an example, back since release there was a certain role in GW2, that of the projectile hate. Projectile reflects or destroys were always needed in some way or form, and abilities that did this as AOE were highly useful and important in the game. Well guess what, Elementalist, Guardian, Mesmer, Thief and Necromancer can do this role very well (Ranger with the Druid Elite Spec) and they are all nearly equally useful in that role, some better in one encounter, some in others but it’s the same role. CC was another role that was needed before raids in some encounters and is varied too.

And the main reason we have this problem is due to buffs. From many games I’ve played, I think GW2 is the only game that a fully buffed character deals nearly triple damage. Let this sink in. Triple damage means 4 dps classes fully buffed will deal more damage than 10 of the same class without buffs, ok not more because the 10 dps classes will do some buffs, like might stacking, so let’s say the same dps, not more. If the other 6 slots are 2 PS, 2 Chrono and 2 Druids and we don’t include their dps in the calculation AT ALL, the 4 remaining dps classes will deal the same or comparable dps with a group of 10 random dps classes. That’s unreasonable in any way you think about it. 4 people doing the damage of 10.

Why is Druid a better healer than Ele? Not because they heal for more, in fact an Ele has better sustain healing than Druid. But the Druid can increase the damage output of the team while healing, something the Ele can’t do.

Why is a Chrono the best tank? A necromancer can tank very well, heck a Thief is also an amazing tank in Raids. Yet Chrono outclass both because while they are tanking they are doing their rotation that increases the damage output of the team. A necro and a Thief can’t increase the dps of the team.

tl;dr Buffs that increase the dps are the real problem with diversity and builds.

Thanks for your insights! I did not know offensive buffs in this game are more powerful relatively than in other games in the genre.

So in summary of your answers, the problem of the very class-restricted raid spots would be:
-Offensive buffs in this game are very strong, and there is a big discrepancy between professions in providing these (easily) for groups.
-The mechanics of the combat system and the current raids tend to play to the strength of specific classes
-And this is of course tied with the mentality of some groups that only the most efficient profession is welcome, even if it is the most efficient by 0.5%.

I assume this feedback has already been given, but a bit more visibility can’t hurt I guess.

The mirror comp is pretty popular nowadays since most of the top guilds recommended it heavily on here and reddit. Pretty rare to see any other comps that aren’t 5-5 such as 7-2-1 or 4-4-2 like in the old days outside of niche encounters.

Right now the comp really is just, 2 druid, 2 PS, 2 chrono + 4 DPS where the DPS can be anything condi or power. Most pugs seem to opt for Ele but anything works, like power engy or condi ranger etc with varying levels of efficiency depending on the encounter/player/team etc. This comp allows the team to have high 25 might uptime, perma fury (tiger from druid + SOI), quickness and easily accessible distortions and since you have 2 warriors with headbutt and M/Sh on swap, CC.

To be completely fair though, only Necro has atrocious DPS right now and every other class is somewhat ok. I would pretty much never take a necro.

I did a couple of tests on DPS. Now a fair bit of warning, I’m NOT the best player following rotations and in addition when you don’t use full buffs there is a lot of rng involved, because you don’t get 100% critical chance. Further, I didn’t use food/utility, nor Infusions so keep that in mind, you won’t see the same dps as you see on other lists. I know other builds can provide Might other than Warrior, I kept things as simple as possible.

But I think my point is very clearly illustrated here.

No buffs: 6976
Revenant buffs (Naturalistic Resonance, Assassin’s Presence): 7301 | 325 difference
Necromancer buff (Vampiric Presence): 7429 | 453 difference
All Conditions: 7933 | 957 difference
Ranger buffs (Spirits, Glyph of Empowerment, Spotter, 3 stacks of GotL): 9866 | 2890 difference
Warrior buffs (No Might): 9988 | 3012 difference
Mesmer buffs (Quickness and Alacrity): 10171 | 3195 difference
25 Might: 10528 | 3552 difference

Warrior buffs (Banners, EA, 25 stacks of Might): 11657 | 4681 difference
Mirror Comp: 23408 | 16432 difference
Mirror Comp + conditions: 24620 | 17644 difference
All buffs and conditions: 26686 | 19710 difference

Edit 1:
Added Warrior Buffs without Might, added 25 stacks of Might on their own, sorted the list by damage. Enjoy

Edit 2:
Noticed that my Incinerator still had Sigil of Fire instead of Force. No wonder my damage were so low, anyway some more damage here and there won’t change the results. No buffs: 7k, full buffs: 25k, that’s more than 3 times the damage.

Joxer.6024:

Fluffy.1932:

The ideal comp right now generally is 2 mesmers, 4 eles, 2 ps, and 2 druids. The ideal comp before the last balance patch was 1 mesmer, 1 rev, 4 eles, 2 ps, and 2 druids.

That’s the problem…..It should read as 1 tank/support, 1 dps/support, 4 dps, 2 dps/support/banners,etc. , 2 dps/heals.

Basically what I am trying to say is that the “4 eles” needs to be 4 dps, that’s all. And don’t say it can’t be done or whatever because it does get done, people have such a “meta mentality” that they can’t see past anything else.

I absolutely believe that it can be done, and even should be done in some situations. On many bosses, you want to get some sort of other utility out of your dps though. On Gors and KC, the large hitbox makes staff ele better dps in theory, but that’s only if you are very good with your rotations. Thieves frequently out dps the eles because their rotation is simpler. However, on Gors you still need orb clear, and ele is really good at that.

On Sab, both thief and ele can teleport and are thus good for cannons. However it is very valuable to be able to dps Karde and the turrets at the same time, for which you need a large aoe like air overload. Thief would have to stop dps on the champ to dps a turret.

On Gors, aoes to kill slubs are valuable. More importantly, you want Gale Song to break people’s fear after break phases. You could have everybody deal with it themselves, or have your druid run Protect Me or something, but that is more risky.

On Matty, you need fire to clear icy patches which makes eles valuable. You could clear with condi warriors, but then you have less cc from your warriors. Once again you can make an adjustment to accommodate a change if you really want.

This is all to explain why people tend to stick with meta. There are lots of reasons to bring specific classes to fill roles and if you make a change, then you have to deal with certain mechanics in a different way.

All that being said, you absolutely can run off-meta comps. I run with a team that gets a full clear with 1 chrono, 1 heal ele, 1 druid, 2 ps, a dps ele, and a combination of ele, necro, and other dps to fill the last slots. I encourage people to try playing things that are off-meta, but you need to be aware of all the subtle differences that causes.

The reason people ask for specific classes is because in this game it’s not just about the general role you’re filling. Everybody has secondary tasks are roles they fill in a fight. A dps class isn’t just there for dps. Warriors are not just there for buffs. Druids are not just there for heals. Chronos are not just there for tanking. Whether this is a good design or not I’m not going to voice an opinion or not.

Fluffy.1932:

The reason people ask for specific classes is because in this game it’s not just about the general role you’re filling. Everybody has secondary tasks are roles they fill in a fight. A dps class isn’t just there for dps. Warriors are not just there for buffs. Druids are not just there for heals. Chronos are not just there for tanking. Whether this is a good design or not I’m not going to voice an opinion or not.

Yes, I agree 100% with that as WOW was the same. As tank you had best be able to dish out some decent dps, and Blizz designed the classes to do such. Ranged as well would be better at holding trash with cc’s or kiting. So yea, I get all that and we do agree with the points on the most part. I do totally see why people ask for the groups they do, its just a shame that more class diversity isn’t available, that’s all.

Yeah, take full DPS groups for pugs and wipe over and over at Slothasor/Matthias/Xera because the groups have little to no sustain even with 2 druids and 2 mesmers, at least with 1-2 Revs/DH and/or 1 Necro you have perma protection + other boons and stuff to make druids and mesmers life easier.

Galespark.7835:

I agree that would be nice. Just out of curiosity, since GW2 is the first game where I dabble a bit in raids: is it the case in other games that there is no real preference for specific professions/classes that were designed for a certain role to take a certain spot in a raid, assuming adequate experience and gear? If so, why do you think the preference is so strong in this game and not in other ones?

maddoc has already named the biggest offender, buffs. I wouldn’t even mind them being as strong as they currently are, since that can be properly balanced, but the buff cap (5 people) kittens up the entire system. Other games like WoW (though that’s a while ago for me) or Wildstar simply apply them raid-wide, so if each class is represented with just one character, pretty much all buffs are available. If we had the same system here, we’d have just three fixed slots instead of six out of ten.

Besides, although in GW2 every class is essentially a DPS class, ANet does an extraordinarily bad job at balancing the DPS classes bring. Judging from the QT ranking, we have a spread from 24k dps at the weakest class (necro, all buffs) to 36k (thief, all buffs; I’ll ignore large hitboxes because those look even more depressing). Taking Wildstar as an example (https://www.wildstarlogs.com/statistics/6#boss=3062&dataset=95), the spread is much smaller. Before anyone asks, Skeledroid is a Patchwerk-style encounter and therefore the perfect dummy.

Can someone find me an MMORPG that you can do 3x more damage when buffed or is this only a thing in Guild Wars 2?

Don’t know one, but then I don’t have enough time to play a ton off MMOs. However, imho it hardly matters if the basic balance is crap like in GW2.

maddoctor.2738:

Can someone find me an MMORPG that you can do 3x more damage when buffed or is this only a thing in Guild Wars 2?

I’d say its actually fairly common place.
Depends on the game itself though, some replace buffs with weapon enhancements/sockets. Others do it with set effects/bonuses, some do all 3. Some even have stacking party buffs to some degree (either additive or most cases multiplicative). It just depends on the game and dev.

The reason i’d say its common place especially so in MMO’s, is that it helps provide for that feeling of overcoming content as a group, making that slightly easier by providing unique group mechanics. Ex FFXIV has a weird sorta comp that is absurdly bursty much like GW2 it features stacking 1 class and bringing your tank of choice and party supports. It looks something like this 1 AST, 1 War, 1 Drag, 4x Machin. (fill whatever else is needed). Why does this work, the known classes bring buffs while the stacked classes bring BURST, so much burst that it is possible outright skip phases or fight mechanics.

Tbh the reason ppl ask for eles in power dmg and rangers or necros back in the day for condi dmg is that the comms in these groups as well as a big portion of the community thinks that content needs the perfect ideal dps classes, support casse and tanking classes to have a smooth run and so they see the dps benchmarks they see highest dps being ele and condi ragers and they thing only that can be used to clear raids when thats far from the truth.

Truth be told you can clear raids you dont need a specific class like everything in this game SKILL>> NUMBERS ppl dont understand that and thats why they would kick a thief or a guardian that do 30k dps (unrealistic in most cases but it helps my point and i can stil occur) for an ele that does 20-23k dps jsut because he has the tempest icon, same aplies for condis and tanks or healers i have had friends telling me how smooth of clears they had bback in the day on vg with thief tank and auramancer healers.

I ‘m not saying eles are bad condi ragers are bad or druids are not needed im just saying the content isnt that hard that tthese classes should be mandatory but your avarage gw2 player does’t seem to be able to realise that (sorry if i came out as a kitten).

zealex.9410:

Tbh the reason ppl ask for eles in power dmg and rangers or necros back in the day for condi dmg is that the comms in these groups as well as a big portion of the community thinks that content needs the perfect ideal dps classes, support casse and tanking classes to have a smooth run and so they see the dps benchmarks they see highest dps being ele and condi ragers and they thing only that can be used to clear raids when thats far from the truth.

Truth be told you can clear raids you dont need a specific class like everything in this game SKILL>> NUMBERS ppl dont understand that and thats why they would kick a thief or a guardian that do 30k dps (unrealistic in most cases but it helps my point and i can stil occur) for an ele that does 20-23k dps jsut because he has the tempest icon, same aplies for condis and tanks or healers i have had friends telling me how smooth of clears they had bback in the day on vg with thief tank and auramancer healers.

I ‘m not saying eles are bad condi ragers are bad or druids are not needed im just saying the content isnt that hard that tthese classes should be mandatory but your avarage gw2 player does’t seem to be able to realise that (sorry if i came out as a kitten).

This, if anything people need to get good at this game and stop copying good guilds comps, you only need the best DPS for Gorseval, KC and Xera to some extent.

zealex.9410:

SKILL>> NUMBERS ppl dont understand that

That’s wrong.

People know that and people understand that. The question is: Why would I take a good thief over a good tempest? Just because I can? The answer is simple: No.
Given the fact that you have no idea how much skilled a player is that is entering your squad, you’d rather take the best you can get than a grab bag.
You never assume you’ll get a bad tempest so it’s possible to take a good thief. You always assume that you get a player knowing to play his class, so he is a good tempest.

It’s just plain logic.

zealex.9410:

Truth be told you can clear raids you dont need a specific class like everything in this game SKILL>> NUMBERS ppl dont understand that and thats why they would kick a thief or a guardian that do 30k dps (unrealistic in most cases but it helps my point and i can stil occur) for an ele that does 20-23k dps jsut because he has the tempest icon, same aplies for condis and tanks or healers i have had friends telling me how smooth of clears they had bback in the day on vg with thief tank and auramancer healers.

That’s hardly the problem, even if all professions did the exact same DPS the diversity would still be terrible because of the buffing professions. You always need Chrono/PS/Druid x2 because they triple your DPS, and if you say you can beat the bosses without them, yes you can, a Tempest can Heal and a Thief can Tank for example. But you’ll be doing 1/3 of the DPS which will make the encounters much harder regardless of skill.

Why go for a composition that does x damage (total Raid damage) over a composition that deals 3x damage?

In my opinion, another reason aside from “meta mentality” as to why pugs dont really want thief for gors is, not only the definite increase in dps for staff ele vs thief, but also because having 4 eles vs 2 or 3 means less pressure on each to clear orbs, guarenteeing people aren’t running into them.

From a personal stand point on this (I main ele for raids), having 3 or 4 eles in the squad makes it much easier to keep the orbs clear. This past weekend, with only 2 eles, there were times when I had to completely stop attacking gors to keep them cleared (although this may be due to the other ele not doing their job; i don’t pay attention to them). This meant a huge loss in team dps. As soon as a 3rd ele joined the squad, we cleared gors on the first try.

In all honesty, it’s because of this experience for me I would much rather have ele’s than theives for gors specifically.

maddoctor.2738:

Galespark.7835:

Just out of curiosity, since GW2 is the first game where I dabble a bit in raids: is it the case in other games that there is no real preference for specific professions/classes that were designed for a certain role to take a certain spot in a raid, assuming adequate experience and gear? If so, why do you think the preference is so strong in this game and not in other ones?

In other games you select your role and not your specific build, you ask for a tank, not for a chrono tank, you ask for a healer, not a Druid, you ask for a DPS, not a Staff Elementalist, you ask for offensive support, not for a PS Warrior, and so on.

This is not entirely true tho… Plenty of other games have bad enough balancing that they exclude classes.

maddoctor.2738:

Can someone find me an MMORPG that you can do 3x more damage when buffed or is this only a thing in Guild Wars 2?

Everquest and DCUO.

Everquest we had ideally Shaman/Bard/Berserker/2 other melee dps groups, and 2 warrior 2 cleric + other tank groups. Where the others varied per event and era of the game but those were pretty core for a long time, and while we were more open to fudging than GW2 is, that’s mainly because trying to get perfect composition in a 54 man raid… well yeah :b

DCUO also had this, in that you needed controllers as a fourth element to the ‘trinity’ and they buffed us up to that level if not more. But the game kind of rotated throughout it’s life with 2-4 options being the best DPS and preferred and always a preferred tank/healer depending on era (usually Ice Tank).

Meta and optimal comps far outperforming the alternatives aren’t something new GW2 introduced, it’s just that at least in my experience GW2’s community is the most stubborn about taking it even if it’s a dumb idea (which it is for most pugs, i mean 33% less damage intake is no big deal right? And everyone always plays to the same level as qT!)

Vinceman.4572:

zealex.9410:

SKILL>> NUMBERS ppl dont understand that

That’s wrong.

People know that and people understand that. The question is: Why would I take a good thief over a good tempest? Just because I can? The answer is simple: No.
Given the fact that you have no idea how much skilled a player is that is entering your squad, you’d rather take the best you can get than a grab bag.
You never assume you’ll get a bad tempest so it’s possible to take a good thief. You always assume that you get a player knowing to play his class, so he is a good tempest.

It’s just plain logic.

Yeah this is logic we shouldnt even consider, what does it mean “you asume someone is good” why because you posted such messege in the desc? from my experience desc boards on both fractals and raids doesnt mean much to those who join the mostly see the class requireents (if they even see that) and join. Thats bad logic we should go through it we should have had dps meter so we could see how much can someone pull his weight during the fight.

Also what you say there “Given the fact that you have no idea how much skilled a player is that is entering your squad, you’d rather take the best you can get than a grab bag” is somewhat folse not because its a false statement yeah you dont know what you get but you also dont know whats the best a comm might get 2 ppl in his group a thief and a tempest since he doesnt know what they will do he will kick the thief and keep the ely because the ely deals more dps on the benchmark vids.

Once we had a commande who was raging to a gaurd for not bringing ele and giving him kitten for supposedly not doing enough dps with gaurd (while the dude was caring for greens if condis couldnt go alpy aegis to greens if there were blue aoes so no one in there takes dmg while pulling off all the dps he coold he also never died to mechanics but because the dps was low in total te comm ignored all that and gone ahead to blame him because he is no ele with out proof of him being bad.

tl dr What you call plain logic i call ignorance we shouldnt be going through this to have good runs. Anet refers to it as the hardest conent but they dont allow us the essential tools to make it enjoyable for all.

maddoctor.2738:

zealex.9410:

Truth be told you can clear raids you dont need a specific class like everything in this game SKILL>> NUMBERS ppl dont understand that and thats why they would kick a thief or a guardian that do 30k dps (unrealistic in most cases but it helps my point and i can stil occur) for an ele that does 20-23k dps jsut because he has the tempest icon, same aplies for condis and tanks or healers i have had friends telling me how smooth of clears they had bback in the day on vg with thief tank and auramancer healers.

That’s hardly the problem, even if all professions did the exact same DPS the diversity would still be terrible because of the buffing professions. You always need Chrono/PS/Druid x2 because they triple your DPS, and if you say you can beat the bosses without them, yes you can, a Tempest can Heal and a Thief can Tank for example. But you’ll be doing 1/3 of the DPS which will make the encounters much harder regardless of skill.

Why go for a composition that does x damage (total Raid damage) over a composition that deals 3x damage?

i was refering to the dpses mostly the diff is small and the buffs nulify it for most encounters but yeah as for the other 2 roles sure the fastest runs can be with chronos and druids and ps warr but that doesnt mean you want to ahve the fastest runs some ppl care about safe runs not a chance for a wipe even if it takes them a min or 2 more

but sure absolutely the existing goto heal might gen and tank specs are too good but that wil solve it self when new elite specs will get added that allow other classes to do that as well

zealex.9410:

Vinceman.4572:

zealex.9410:

SKILL>> NUMBERS ppl dont understand that

That’s wrong.

People know that and people understand that. The question is: Why would I take a good thief over a good tempest? Just because I can? The answer is simple: No.
Given the fact that you have no idea how much skilled a player is that is entering your squad, you’d rather take the best you can get than a grab bag.
You never assume you’ll get a bad tempest so it’s possible to take a good thief. You always assume that you get a player knowing to play his class, so he is a good tempest.

It’s just plain logic.

Yeah this is logic we shouldnt even consider, what does it mean “you asume someone is good” why because you posted such messege in the desc? from my experience desc boards on both fractals and raids doesnt mean much to those who join the mostly see the class requireents (if they even see that) and join. Thats bad logic we should go through it we should have had dps meter so we could see how much can someone pull his weight during the fight.

Also what you say there “Given the fact that you have no idea how much skilled a player is that is entering your squad, you’d rather take the best you can get than a grab bag” is somewhat folse not because its a false statement yeah you dont know what you get but you also dont know whats the best a comm might get 2 ppl in his group a thief and a tempest since he doesnt know what they will do he will kick the thief and keep the ely because the ely deals more dps on the benchmark vids.

Once we had a commande who was raging to a gaurd for not bringing ele and giving him kitten for supposedly not doing enough dps with gaurd (while the dude was caring for greens if condis couldnt go alpy aegis to greens if there were blue aoes so no one in there takes dmg while pulling off all the dps he coold he also never died to mechanics but because the dps was low in total te comm ignored all that and gone ahead to blame him because he is no ele with out proof of him being bad.

tl dr What you call plain logic i call ignorance we shouldnt be going through this to have good runs. Anet refers to it as the hardest conent but they dont allow us the essential tools to make it enjoyable for all.

1. We don’t speculate about what we can have or what we should have. It’s about now, this moment of time and what is the reality.

Leads to

2. Still stays logic and you haven’t understood the sentence in it’s meaning when you quoted it.
Tempest continues being the better alternative groupwise than a thief in almost all cases. So, there is no reason to take a thief over a tempest for an average pug.
It’s only irrational if you ask for “dps” and then you kick a thief, the only point I would agree. But most of the groups are asking for a tempest for a reason (orb clear, projectile blocking, gale song and some more).

I would also prefer tempests over thiefs in raids because from my subjective experiences. There were more thiefs laying dead on the ground all the time than tempests. Applied the same for most of the people & commanders I ran with in pugs. Pug thiefs have a bad reputation.

Vinceman.4572:

zealex.9410:

Vinceman.4572:

zealex.9410:

SKILL>> NUMBERS ppl dont understand that

That’s wrong.

People know that and people understand that. The question is: Why would I take a good thief over a good tempest? Just because I can? The answer is simple: No.
Given the fact that you have no idea how much skilled a player is that is entering your squad, you’d rather take the best you can get than a grab bag.
You never assume you’ll get a bad tempest so it’s possible to take a good thief. You always assume that you get a player knowing to play his class, so he is a good tempest.

It’s just plain logic.

Yeah this is logic we shouldnt even consider, what does it mean “you asume someone is good” why because you posted such messege in the desc? from my experience desc boards on both fractals and raids doesnt mean much to those who join the mostly see the class requireents (if they even see that) and join. Thats bad logic we should go through it we should have had dps meter so we could see how much can someone pull his weight during the fight.

Also what you say there “Given the fact that you have no idea how much skilled a player is that is entering your squad, you’d rather take the best you can get than a grab bag” is somewhat folse not because its a false statement yeah you dont know what you get but you also dont know whats the best a comm might get 2 ppl in his group a thief and a tempest since he doesnt know what they will do he will kick the thief and keep the ely because the ely deals more dps on the benchmark vids.

Once we had a commande who was raging to a gaurd for not bringing ele and giving him kitten for supposedly not doing enough dps with gaurd (while the dude was caring for greens if condis couldnt go alpy aegis to greens if there were blue aoes so no one in there takes dmg while pulling off all the dps he coold he also never died to mechanics but because the dps was low in total te comm ignored all that and gone ahead to blame him because he is no ele with out proof of him being bad.

tl dr What you call plain logic i call ignorance we shouldnt be going through this to have good runs. Anet refers to it as the hardest conent but they dont allow us the essential tools to make it enjoyable for all.

1. We don’t speculate about what we can have or what we should have. It’s about now, this moment of time and what is the reality.

Leads to

2. Still stays logic and you haven’t understood the sentence in it’s meaning when you quoted it.
Tempest continues being the better alternative groupwise than a thief in almost all cases. So, there is no reason to take a thief over a tempest for an average pug.
It’s only irrational if you ask for “dps” and then you kick a thief, the only point I would agree. But most of the groups are asking for a tempest for a reason (orb clear, projectile blocking, gale song and some more).

I would also prefer tempests over thiefs in raids because from my subjective experiences. There were more thiefs laying dead on the ground all the time than tempests. Applied the same for most of the people & commanders I ran with in pugs. Pug thiefs have a bad reputation.

No he honestly is not a better alternative in half the bosses ele does less dmg than a thief and a guard and he brings little support compaired to them to take an ele on sab or vg rather than a thief or a guard is as logical as to take a rev over a warr for mightstacking (which can work in some cases but in some other warriors are jsut a better alternative exactly like thiefs and guards in some cases). Im not saying that you will get a bad tempest and a good thief but in some encounters having good a good thief that works better or a guard and a tempsest you should pick the thief/guard .

So i just like to give a update,

I did a full wing 1 today VG/GOR?SAB and the comps went as.

VG= 2 necros, 2 mesmers, 2 ps warriors, 1 DH, 1 druid, 1 vanilla ranger, 1 ele

For gors we made some switches, Mostly same group 2 left

Gors= 1 dh, 1 rev, 2 ps warriors, 2 druids, 3 eles, 1 vanilla ranger

Sab= 1 dh, 1 rev, 2 ps warriors, 2 druids, 3 eles, 1 vanilla ranger

Now it didnt go easy for any of the bosses, this was mostly a pug group. I think a guild of 3 with that had the vanilla ranger.

For all 3 bosses we must of wiped at least 3 times. We got sab on the 4th and VG on the 4th but Gors took a few more i believe.

@fluffy thank you for answering my questions overall about the state.

A few things though, earlier in the week i joined a W1 clear group and they asked for 70+ LI obviously as someone who only raids so often i dont have 70. I believe after today i have like 24-25. All from W1 though. The 2nd i joined the commander asked for ping, i shared my LI and i was kicked.

Not a huge issue for me because i know there are good groups like the one I found today where everyone didnt mind putting in 2 hours to get a wing done.

I personally enjoy raids a little bit since its alot different from PvP and WvW.

Though i have to say this is a horrible set up for players trying to get into raids. Im sorry, i see the comments about build diversity and what not but everyone was thinking the same thing. The pugs int he discord didnt want the vanilla ranger, they all wanted him to be druid or ele.

I cant believe the state of balance int he game. For me HOT specs are so toxic, they have not been good for WvW or PvP. Now in raids the very thing Anet is selling on end game content. There are very clear classes to play.

8 class spots are already almost determined before the raid even starts. 2mes-2 ps warriors- 2 druids-2eles. It seems like these are must haves which is unfortunate.

kdaddy.5431:

So i just like to give a update,

I did a full wing 1 today VG/GOR?SAB and the comps went as.

VG= 2 necros, 2 mesmers, 2 ps warriors, 1 DH, 1 druid, 1 vanilla ranger, 1 ele

For gors we made some switches, Mostly same group 2 left

Gors= 1 dh, 1 rev, 2 ps warriors, 2 druids, 3 eles, 1 vanilla ranger

Sab= 1 dh, 1 rev, 2 ps warriors, 2 druids, 3 eles, 1 vanilla ranger

Not an Engi in sight…..I cry and die inside.

Joxer.6024:

kdaddy.5431:

So i just like to give a update,

I did a full wing 1 today VG/GOR?SAB and the comps went as.

VG= 2 necros, 2 mesmers, 2 ps warriors, 1 DH, 1 druid, 1 vanilla ranger, 1 ele

For gors we made some switches, Mostly same group 2 left

Gors= 1 dh, 1 rev, 2 ps warriors, 2 druids, 3 eles, 1 vanilla ranger

Sab= 1 dh, 1 rev, 2 ps warriors, 2 druids, 3 eles, 1 vanilla ranger

Not an Engi in sight…..I cry and die inside.

Yeah, engi is probably the least desired class currently in raid.

The meta condition build has good dps but simply has nothing special to bring on the table. All other classes have some special tricks of their own.

Exciton.8942:

Joxer.6024:

kdaddy.5431:

So i just like to give a update,

I did a full wing 1 today VG/GOR?SAB and the comps went as.

VG= 2 necros, 2 mesmers, 2 ps warriors, 1 DH, 1 druid, 1 vanilla ranger, 1 ele

For gors we made some switches, Mostly same group 2 left

Gors= 1 dh, 1 rev, 2 ps warriors, 2 druids, 3 eles, 1 vanilla ranger

Sab= 1 dh, 1 rev, 2 ps warriors, 2 druids, 3 eles, 1 vanilla ranger

Not an Engi in sight…..I cry and die inside.

Yeah, engi is probably the least desired class currently in raid.

The meta condition build has good dps but simply has nothing special to bring on the table. All other classes have some special tricks of their own.

yea, been that way for months and really hope something changes. Game shouldn’t have a completely dead class, just not cool.

Joxer.6024:

Exciton.8942:

Joxer.6024:

kdaddy.5431:

So i just like to give a update,

I did a full wing 1 today VG/GOR?SAB and the comps went as.

VG= 2 necros, 2 mesmers, 2 ps warriors, 1 DH, 1 druid, 1 vanilla ranger, 1 ele

For gors we made some switches, Mostly same group 2 left

Gors= 1 dh, 1 rev, 2 ps warriors, 2 druids, 3 eles, 1 vanilla ranger

Sab= 1 dh, 1 rev, 2 ps warriors, 2 druids, 3 eles, 1 vanilla ranger

Not an Engi in sight…..I cry and die inside.

Yeah, engi is probably the least desired class currently in raid.

The meta condition build has good dps but simply has nothing special to bring on the table. All other classes have some special tricks of their own.

yea, been that way for months and really hope something changes. Game shouldn’t have a completely dead class, just not cool.

As much as i hate engi being shunted, i hated being the portable breakbar man more.

Engi needs to have several of the pvp specific damage nerfs it had reverted. It also needs a bit of a rework for power viability not relying on a crutch like SD builds. If they do that it might see some more play in coordinated groups as it damage and utility will be on par with Ele depending on the situation.

Joxer.6024:

kdaddy.5431:

So i just like to give a update,

I did a full wing 1 today VG/GOR?SAB and the comps went as.

VG= 2 necros, 2 mesmers, 2 ps warriors, 1 DH, 1 druid, 1 vanilla ranger, 1 ele

For gors we made some switches, Mostly same group 2 left

Gors= 1 dh, 1 rev, 2 ps warriors, 2 druids, 3 eles, 1 vanilla ranger

Sab= 1 dh, 1 rev, 2 ps warriors, 2 druids, 3 eles, 1 vanilla ranger

Not an Engi in sight…..I cry and die inside.

Yeah ive had a issue with the patch that made raids this way. This screen shot is of a group before the patch.

Obviously groups are gonna want to use the the comp that has the best chance for success but my goodness. Anet has made raids as dull as PvP. I mean they are literally taking away any form of skill away from the game and making it all build/comps and rotations.

Edit- I will add this because ive had many people say comments about raids being too hard for people like me. Ive complained about a Raid reward track in PvP and ive had people tell me to L2Raid if i want raid rewards. I just will leave that there so there ic clear evidence that i killed the bosses.

kdaddy.5431:

Joxer.6024:

kdaddy.5431:

So i just like to give a update,

I did a full wing 1 today VG/GOR?SAB and the comps went as.

VG= 2 necros, 2 mesmers, 2 ps warriors, 1 DH, 1 druid, 1 vanilla ranger, 1 ele

For gors we made some switches, Mostly same group 2 left

Gors= 1 dh, 1 rev, 2 ps warriors, 2 druids, 3 eles, 1 vanilla ranger

Sab= 1 dh, 1 rev, 2 ps warriors, 2 druids, 3 eles, 1 vanilla ranger

Not an Engi in sight…..I cry and die inside.

Yeah ive had a issue with the patch that made raids this way. This screen shot is of a group before the patch.

Obviously groups are gonna want to use the the comp that has the best chance for success but my goodness. Anet has made raids as dull as PvP. I mean they are literally taking away any form of skill away from the game and making it all build/comps and rotations.

Edit- I will add this because ive had many people say comments about raids being too hard for people like me. Ive complained about a Raid reward track in PvP and ive had people tell me to L2Raid if i want raid rewards. I just will leave that there so there ic clear evidence that i killed the bosses.

Wholly crap, is that 2 engi’s I see!!!??? WOW, now that’s one for the books. If only those days would come back. /sigh

Joxer.6024:

kdaddy.5431:

Joxer.6024:

kdaddy.5431:

So i just like to give a update,

I did a full wing 1 today VG/GOR?SAB and the comps went as.

VG= 2 necros, 2 mesmers, 2 ps warriors, 1 DH, 1 druid, 1 vanilla ranger, 1 ele

For gors we made some switches, Mostly same group 2 left

Gors= 1 dh, 1 rev, 2 ps warriors, 2 druids, 3 eles, 1 vanilla ranger

Sab= 1 dh, 1 rev, 2 ps warriors, 2 druids, 3 eles, 1 vanilla ranger

Not an Engi in sight…..I cry and die inside.

Yeah ive had a issue with the patch that made raids this way. This screen shot is of a group before the patch.

Obviously groups are gonna want to use the the comp that has the best chance for success but my goodness. Anet has made raids as dull as PvP. I mean they are literally taking away any form of skill away from the game and making it all build/comps and rotations.

Edit- I will add this because ive had many people say comments about raids being too hard for people like me. Ive complained about a Raid reward track in PvP and ive had people tell me to L2Raid if i want raid rewards. I just will leave that there so there ic clear evidence that i killed the bosses.

Wholly crap, is that 2 engi’s I see!!!??? WOW, now that’s one for the books. If only those days would come back. /sigh

You can still do that nowadays.
Engi was not optimal before patch, is not optimal after patch. Nothing has changed.