Fractal/Raid build advice
Thief condi dps will certainly be lower than ranger or engi, but idk the exact numbers. From my understanding vipers gear is the best condi gear atm with sinister trinkets, and runes of the berserker are the best (hard to beat flat +5% condi and normal damage)
Thief condi dps will certainly be lower than ranger or engi, but idk the exact numbers. From my understanding vipers gear is the best condi gear atm with sinister trinkets, and runes of the berserker are the best (hard to beat flat +5% condi and normal damage)
runes of the berserker or not depends on how much Condi Duration you have, if you are under 70% duration i would recommend 4 nightmare and 2 trapper runes
Chaos | Death And Taxes [DnT]
Does anyone have rough numbers on engi and ranger dps? I don’t know my direct damage numbers, but I should consistently have 10 stacks of bleeding, 3 stacks of torment, and 25 stacks of poison average. With buffs, max corruption stacks, and might, I’ll have 3275 condi damage plus 10% damage from lotus training and 33% bonus to poison. That’s 2403/s bleeding, 539-1078/s torment, 8221/s poison. Poison is more than 2/3 of my damage.
After 10 seconds, thorn will match berserker runes for condi damage (5% of 2000 is 100, and I get 50 bonus on a 10s cd). Berserker would still boost direct damage more, but I’m already looking at using a bit of dire for the reason stated in the OP, so I’m not trying to min/max power. And again, with those runes I’ll have 100% poison, and I can also have 30% duration for other condis (food and oil). I know viper is considered the best for engi/ranger, but for this specific build I’m not sure.
Edit: does anyone know how things like sigil of bursting and berserker runes work in relation to might, corruption, food etc? Does they boost those stat increases by 5-6%? If so, thorn needs 20s to match berserker.
(edited by Zodryn.4216)
So…just be aware that if you’re going to use gear with toughness, like Dire, you will be more likely to attract aggro, particularly if the rest of your group isn’t using a lot of toughness. Considering that you’ll be in melee, you’ll be even more likely to have aggro.
In other words, your toughness gear will likely make it harder to survive while also lowering your dps. If you’re convinced that you want more defensive stats, consider going for vitality.
As for DPS comparisons with thief condi…I keep hearing that it’s lower DPS, but I haven’t really seen anything definitive behind those broad statements and I haven’t seen anyone back that up while also considering the additional damage from venom share.
but I’m already looking at using a bit of dire for the reason stated in the OP
Please, no toughness gear you will get aggro, unless you want to get almost 100% aggro uptime and you have 100% sure you will dodge/survive almost everything, or you will just keep dieing and make your teammates life harder.
Chaos | Death And Taxes [DnT]
but I’m already looking at using a bit of dire for the reason stated in the OP
Please, no toughness gear you will get aggro, unless you want to get almost 100% aggro uptime and you have 100% sure you will dodge/survive almost everything, or you will just keep dieing and make your teammates life harder.
There is no proof toughness has anything to do with aggro.
but I’m already looking at using a bit of dire for the reason stated in the OP
Please, no toughness gear you will get aggro, unless you want to get almost 100% aggro uptime and you have 100% sure you will dodge/survive almost everything, or you will just keep dieing and make your teammates life harder.
There is no proof toughness has anything to do with aggro.
Toughness has everything to do with aggro in Raids.. This was very evident during the beta weekend that raids were previewed
Narc:: [DnT] Death and Taxes
but I’m already looking at using a bit of dire for the reason stated in the OP
Please, no toughness gear you will get aggro, unless you want to get almost 100% aggro uptime and you have 100% sure you will dodge/survive almost everything, or you will just keep dieing and make your teammates life harder.
There is no proof toughness has anything to do with aggro.
Actually most bosses are definitely made to aggro on the player with the most toughess, and with my understanding this is true for ALL bosses in the upcoming raids.
but I’m already looking at using a bit of dire for the reason stated in the OP
Please, no toughness gear you will get aggro, unless you want to get almost 100% aggro uptime and you have 100% sure you will dodge/survive almost everything, or you will just keep dieing and make your teammates life harder.
There is no proof toughness has anything to do with aggro.
Actually most bosses are definitely made to aggro on the player with the most toughess, and with my understanding this is true for ALL bosses in the upcoming raids.
Again, I haven’t found any evidence that that is true for current content. People have found the opposite is true sometimes, and even the wiki says it is player speculation based on other MMOs. It may be true for raids, but won’t there likely be someone else with more toughness than me (will need to see how the raid meta works out)? I’m not even in full dire. A heavy barely needs any toughness to match my level of armor.
but I’m already looking at using a bit of dire for the reason stated in the OP
Please, no toughness gear you will get aggro, unless you want to get almost 100% aggro uptime and you have 100% sure you will dodge/survive almost everything, or you will just keep dieing and make your teammates life harder.
There is no proof toughness has anything to do with aggro.
Actually most bosses are definitely made to aggro on the player with the most toughess, and with my understanding this is true for ALL bosses in the upcoming raids.
Again, I haven’t found any evidence that that is true for current content. People have found the opposite is true sometimes, and even the wiki says it is player speculation based on other MMOs. It may be true for raids, but won’t there likely be someone else with more toughness than me (will need to see how the raid meta works out)? I’m not even in full dire. A heavy barely needs any toughness to match my level of armor.
Again, is it absolutely true for most bosses, lupicus will ALWAYS favor the player with the most toughness. Some bosses have different ways though, such as mai trin targetting the farthest player from her, etc.
but I’m already looking at using a bit of dire for the reason stated in the OP
Please, no toughness gear you will get aggro, unless you want to get almost 100% aggro uptime and you have 100% sure you will dodge/survive almost everything, or you will just keep dieing and make your teammates life harder.
There is no proof toughness has anything to do with aggro.
Actually most bosses are definitely made to aggro on the player with the most toughess, and with my understanding this is true for ALL bosses in the upcoming raids.
Again, I haven’t found any evidence that that is true for current content. People have found the opposite is true sometimes, and even the wiki says it is player speculation based on other MMOs. It may be true for raids, but won’t there likely be someone else with more toughness than me (will need to see how the raid meta works out)? I’m not even in full dire. A heavy barely needs any toughness to match my level of armor.
Again, is it absolutely true for most bosses, lupicus will ALWAYS favor the player with the most toughness. Some bosses have different ways though, such as mai trin targetting the farthest player from her, etc.
Everything I’ve read on lupi says he favors either glassy characters, high dps, or it’s random. It’s been awhile though, so maybe that’s changed? If you can provide any solid evidence that toughness is the biggest deciding factor, I will gladly accept it. Either way, my question was more about if the lost power/precision would make much of a difference. With good timing, I can handle aggro.
but I’m already looking at using a bit of dire for the reason stated in the OP
Please, no toughness gear you will get aggro, unless you want to get almost 100% aggro uptime and you have 100% sure you will dodge/survive almost everything, or you will just keep dieing and make your teammates life harder.
There is no proof toughness has anything to do with aggro.
Actually most bosses are definitely made to aggro on the player with the most toughess, and with my understanding this is true for ALL bosses in the upcoming raids.
Again, I haven’t found any evidence that that is true for current content. People have found the opposite is true sometimes, and even the wiki says it is player speculation based on other MMOs. It may be true for raids, but won’t there likely be someone else with more toughness than me (will need to see how the raid meta works out)? I’m not even in full dire. A heavy barely needs any toughness to match my level of armor.
Again, is it absolutely true for most bosses, lupicus will ALWAYS favor the player with the most toughness. Some bosses have different ways though, such as mai trin targetting the farthest player from her, etc.
Everything I’ve read on lupi says he favors either glassy characters, high dps, or it’s random. It’s been awhile though, so maybe that’s changed? If you can provide any solid evidence that toughness is the biggest deciding factor, I will gladly accept it. Either way, my question was more about if the lost power/precision would make much of a difference. With good timing, I can handle aggro.
I’m not sure how much of a difference the lost power/prec will have, but since you can dodge/otherwise mitigate damage from whatever aggro you have I’m not sure the toughness is worth itfor current pve (dungeons, fractals, etc), but I don’t know the details of the raid.
but I’m already looking at using a bit of dire for the reason stated in the OP
Please, no toughness gear you will get aggro, unless you want to get almost 100% aggro uptime and you have 100% sure you will dodge/survive almost everything, or you will just keep dieing and make your teammates life harder.
There is no proof toughness has anything to do with aggro.
Actually most bosses are definitely made to aggro on the player with the most toughess, and with my understanding this is true for ALL bosses in the upcoming raids.
Again, I haven’t found any evidence that that is true for current content. People have found the opposite is true sometimes, and even the wiki says it is player speculation based on other MMOs. It may be true for raids, but won’t there likely be someone else with more toughness than me (will need to see how the raid meta works out)? I’m not even in full dire. A heavy barely needs any toughness to match my level of armor.
Again, is it absolutely true for most bosses, lupicus will ALWAYS favor the player with the most toughness. Some bosses have different ways though, such as mai trin targetting the farthest player from her, etc.
Everything I’ve read on lupi says he favors either glassy characters, high dps, or it’s random. It’s been awhile though, so maybe that’s changed? If you can provide any solid evidence that toughness is the biggest deciding factor, I will gladly accept it. Either way, my question was more about if the lost power/precision would make much of a difference. With good timing, I can handle aggro.
Ok, I am not sure whether how other bosses aggro works. but I can tell you that(at least for the first boss of raid) it does STICK to the highest toughness dude.
We tried it with different person with different toughness, the statement didn’t fail us. Even the splits as well.
And it’s not about you can or cannot dodge the attacks, you are changing the directions the boss is facing constantly and the damage cleaves into your teammates.
(edited by Kyle.5931)
Go and check it, a easy place to check this is SnowBlind fireplace.
Its not only toughness, its a “aggro” system like in every MMO.
In other MMOs tanks have “aggro” specific skills, and High DPS increase Aggro too.
On GW2 instead of aggro skills your DPS aggro is affected by your toughness too.
I would bet aggro is something like:
You get aggro = “Damage* (Thoughness^2)”
Who has more aggro wins
On especific boss fights this change a little, but raid Vale Guardian Boss works like this, it has video evidences, check youtube and twitch
Chaos | Death And Taxes [DnT]
but I’m already looking at using a bit of dire for the reason stated in the OP
Please, no toughness gear you will get aggro, unless you want to get almost 100% aggro uptime and you have 100% sure you will dodge/survive almost everything, or you will just keep dieing and make your teammates life harder.
There is no proof toughness has anything to do with aggro.
Actually most bosses are definitely made to aggro on the player with the most toughess, and with my understanding this is true for ALL bosses in the upcoming raids.
Again, I haven’t found any evidence that that is true for current content. People have found the opposite is true sometimes, and even the wiki says it is player speculation based on other MMOs. It may be true for raids, but won’t there likely be someone else with more toughness than me (will need to see how the raid meta works out)? I’m not even in full dire. A heavy barely needs any toughness to match my level of armor.
Again, is it absolutely true for most bosses, lupicus will ALWAYS favor the player with the most toughness. Some bosses have different ways though, such as mai trin targetting the farthest player from her, etc.
Everything I’ve read on lupi says he favors either glassy characters, high dps, or it’s random. It’s been awhile though, so maybe that’s changed? If you can provide any solid evidence that toughness is the biggest deciding factor, I will gladly accept it. Either way, my question was more about if the lost power/precision would make much of a difference. With good timing, I can handle aggro.
Lupi’s aggro mechanics are pretty weird.
If everybody in your party is running berserker and you take something that increases your toughness (dolyak signet for instance), he will focus aggro on you for phase 1 and 2.
But somehow during phase 3 he starts randomly switching aggro between people without any noticeable pattern at all.
However if everybody has the same toughness, he likes to focus on elementalists, no idea why
but I’m already looking at using a bit of dire for the reason stated in the OP
Please, no toughness gear you will get aggro, unless you want to get almost 100% aggro uptime and you have 100% sure you will dodge/survive almost everything, or you will just keep dieing and make your teammates life harder.
There is no proof toughness has anything to do with aggro.
Actually most bosses are definitely made to aggro on the player with the most toughess, and with my understanding this is true for ALL bosses in the upcoming raids.
Again, I haven’t found any evidence that that is true for current content. People have found the opposite is true sometimes, and even the wiki says it is player speculation based on other MMOs. It may be true for raids, but won’t there likely be someone else with more toughness than me (will need to see how the raid meta works out)? I’m not even in full dire. A heavy barely needs any toughness to match my level of armor.
There’s multiple factors on aggro tables, so it’s not a 100% guaranteed way to get threat on all mobs, but it most certainly does increase the likeliness of getting aggro in most cases. I’ve played regularly with someone who DPSes from a rabid grenade engi, using a build that does less damage than the meta condi build. At the same time, I’ve played a zerker melee character and bosses were much more likely to chase the rapid geared player than me. Because of this, the engi often ended up ‘kite tanking’ bosses with grenades.
But if you want to believe that it won’t make any difference just because toughness isn’t the determining factor of aggro in all cases, be my guest. Just remember that we warned you…
I’ve played fights where one person claims “the aggro was on me the whole time because X Y or Z” where its confirmation bias. sometimes times the aggro was not on that person most of the time, it only felt that way to them.
Toughness DOES factor in to aggro, but not as much as people tend to think.
I asked a developer how aggro mechanics work and this was my answer, whether its a correct answer or not is up for grabs. Anyway here it is:
The first thing they said is that:
aggro mechanics are looser and less specified than people tend to believe.
aggro in most fight has to do with proximity- some the closest or furthest target, respectively. Proximity changes- as in one person moves closer or further away suddenly.
Most recent/most damage.
Then- Toughness.
If multiple people are all in the same range and same similar gear- then changes in damage spikes are more likely to draw aggro. damage spikes probably why the ele may get seized on, bladex ^
seems reasonable that if everyone in the party except one guy is wearing zerk gear and the last guy is wearing rabid/knights/whatevertoughness- in a fight like lupi he would seize on the one in toughness gear based on the mechanics described- at least a good percentage of the time.
don’t know if that’s the right answer or not- or even what part of the game the guy works on. but it seems about right to me. who knows- may be i’m experiencing confirmation bias also.
(edited by Dovienya.6597)
I’ve played fights where one person claims “the aggro was on me the whole time because X Y or Z” where its confirmation bias. sometimes times the aggro was not on that person most of the time, it only felt that way to them.
Toughness DOES factor in to aggro, but not as much as people tend to think.
I asked a developer how aggro mechanics work and this was my answer, whether its a correct answer or not is up for grabs. Anyway here it is:
The first thing they said is that:
aggro mechanics are looser and less specified than people tend to believe.
aggro in most fight has to do with proximity- some the closest or furthest target, respectively. Proximity changes- as in one person moves closer or further away suddenly.
Most recent/most damage.
Then- Toughness.
If multiple people are all in the same range and same similar gear- then changes in damage spikes are more likely to draw aggro. damage spikes probably why the ele may get seized on, bladex ^
seems reasonable that if everyone in the party except one guy is wearing zerk gear and the last guy is wearing rabid/knights/whatevertoughness- in a fight like lupi he would seize on the one in toughness gear based on the mechanics described- at least a good percentage of the time.
don’t know if that’s the right answer or not- or even what part of the game the guy works on. but it seems about right to me. who knows- may be i’m experiencing confirmation bias also.
That seems reasonable and basically matches the wiki. Maybe everyone thinks toughness is the biggest factor because all other factors are usually equal (stack on the boss, everyone in zerk, everyone deals high dps). Maybe in raids we’ll see aggro go to the highest healing, most boons or something else. It could be really interesting.
Anyway, I’ll try dire armor, but I may switch to carrion or sinister. I just prefer not to be one shot if I miss a dodge.
Not sure who here thinks that toughness is the biggest factor, because that hasn’t been said at all.
However, it is a factor. That’s a fact.
It also is in conjunction with other factors, such as damage and proximity. If you’re playing a thief, you already have the proximity factor to your disadvantage.
If you want to survive a hit, that’s fine. You have two options for that: Vitality and Toughness. Vitality totally makes sense for a thief, since you’re already starting out with the lowest health pool of all profession (shared with Guard and Ele).
Toughness, on the other hand, is just counter-intuitive to that, particularly if you decide to stack a lot of it. You’re trading off the likeliness of surviving damage to an increased likeliness of taking damage.
Not only will dire further decrease your damage potential to the group by leaving you with only 1 damage stat on a class and spec that’s already relatively low dps to begin with, but you’re also doing it in a way that will increase the likeliness of you taking damage.
Now, you’ve decided that you want to gamble on what that % of increase is, just because there’s no proven, concrete answer behind that. Even if that was a safe gamble, you’re still really hampering a build that’s already in a weak place.
You’ve made your choice…but I feel sorry for your raid group, as they’ll have to pick up slack due to your build and gear choices.
I managed to go up to level 51 yesterday in Fractals with my zerker warrior but realized how crappy it is. Seems like the only thing that can hurt those mobs are condition damage. I am already thinking of building up another toon to do level 51+. Should I get a ranger or Engineer and perhaps a build like this?
http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Ranger_-_A/T_Condition
http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Engineer_-_Condition_Grenadier
I’m thinking of maybe running an necro also since they can boon strip too?
http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Necromancer_-_Condition_Roamer
I managed to go up to level 51 yesterday in Fractals with my zerker warrior but realized how crappy it is. Seems like the only thing that can hurt those mobs are condition damage. I am already thinking of building up another toon to do level 51+. Should I get a ranger or Engineer and perhaps a build like this?
http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Ranger_-_A/T_Condition
http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Engineer_-_Condition_Grenadier
I’m thinking of maybe running an necro also since they can boon strip too?
http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Necromancer_-_Condition_Roamer
Condi warrior is really good atm, you can just get condition gear for your warrior and run the berserker elite spec, and do pretty much equal DPS to condi ranger/engi
Not sure who here thinks that toughness is the biggest factor, because that hasn’t been said at all.
However, it is a factor. That’s a fact.
It also is in conjunction with other factors, such as damage and proximity. If you’re playing a thief, you already have the proximity factor to your disadvantage.
If you want to survive a hit, that’s fine. You have two options for that: Vitality and Toughness. Vitality totally makes sense for a thief, since you’re already starting out with the lowest health pool of all profession (shared with Guard and Ele).
Toughness, on the other hand, is just counter-intuitive to that, particularly if you decide to stack a lot of it. You’re trading off the likeliness of surviving damage to an increased likeliness of taking damage.
Not only will dire further decrease your damage potential to the group by leaving you with only 1 damage stat on a class and spec that’s already relatively low dps to begin with, but you’re also doing it in a way that will increase the likeliness of you taking damage.
Now, you’ve decided that you want to gamble on what that % of increase is, just because there’s no proven, concrete answer behind that. Even if that was a safe gamble, you’re still really hampering a build that’s already in a weak place.
You’ve made your choice…but I feel sorry for your raid group, as they’ll have to pick up slack due to your build and gear choices.
I asked for advice primarily on my dps with a small amount of dire gear, so no I don’t have only one damaging stat. I have full sinister weapons and trinkets. I have not “made my choice” yet, and I don’t intend to burden my fractal/raid group. I posted my expected dps (not including direct damage) so I could compare with popular condi builds. Give me numbers that prove my dps will be comparatively poor and I’ll look at some other gear or a different build. And since when is thief a low dps class?
Nobody said toughness was the biggest factor in aggro directly, but they did say my small toughness boost would give me aggro 100% of the time guaranteed. That is closer to saying toughness is the only factor. Also, you don’t know what the raid meta will be like. Teams may take a bunker, in which case it makes little difference. Or aggro may be totally different for some bosses. Aggro still really wasn’t the point of the thread.
You’ve made your choice…but I feel sorry for your raid group, as they’ll have to pick up slack due to your build and gear choices.
While raids are hopefully difficult, I hate this mentality that you (Being X Y Z or enjoying plying X with a 10% damage nerf, for example) is hindering your group to the point that they need to make up slack.
I’d like to think all classes are viable, some builds are better than others, and maybe specific situations might call for a specific build or a dps race that that 10% MAY make a difference, but we dont know everything yet.
I also would love to see the damage difference between condi ranger and condi engi, and which is easier to maintain those numbers (given, theyre spreadsheets)
Anyone have those numbers?
@ Zodryn: Aggro wasn’t the point of the thread, but you were looking for advice on gear and aggro does play a factor in how well that gear will help you survive. Take it as you will.
You’ve made your choice…but I feel sorry for your raid group, as they’ll have to pick up slack due to your build and gear choices.
While raids are hopefully difficult, I hate this mentality that you (Being X Y Z or enjoying plying X with a 10% damage nerf, for example) is hindering your group to the point that they need to make up slack.
I’d like to think all classes are viable, some builds are better than others, and maybe specific situations might call for a specific build or a dps race that that 10% MAY make a difference, but we dont know everything yet.I also would love to see the damage difference between condi ranger and condi engi, and which is easier to maintain those numbers (given, theyre spreadsheets)
Anyone have those numbers?
I can understand that the ‘meta only’ mentality gets taken too far, but please don’t interpret what I said there as part of it.
At the end of the day, effectiveness is a numbers game to a very large extend. You have a boss with X health that (with enrage timers) will need to be killed by Y time. There’s a threshold of what you will need in order to survive spike damage (since sustained damage doesn’t really matter in a game with no mana limits), so once you have the utility/stats to survive and recover a hit, any additional defense contributes 0 to the goal of getting X damage dealt by Y time frame.
In dungeons, there was no Y. That’s really why I often found the meta in dungeons to be a bit silly. So many people would set up a restrictive LFG post or would drop members in the middle of a dungeon not because they weren’t able to clear a dungeon, but because they wanted to clear it faster.
Until raids come out, it’s often not a question of “will I succeed?”, but “how long will success take?”. However, with enrage timers, it’s a whole different ball game.
We’re all still human, so skill and knowledge of encounters will still probably be a much bigger factor than the gear/build/party make up of a group (as it often is in MMOs), but they still play a factor.
Raids require players to play well, not perfectly. As long as you’re playing well enough, then it really doesn’t matter what the opinion is of anyone (even me) on the forums.
If the OP can clear raids as a condi thief in dire gear, then the OP is successful. My advice has been aimed at increasing that likeliness, so please understand that in no way am I criticizing them on any other level.
You did, however, criticize my armor choice to the point where you pity any group I play with because I apparently won’t contribute enough. I get that enrage timers and dps are important. That’s why I want a comparison, and why I posted my numbers.