Fractal attitude

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Posted by: Mad Queen Malafide.7512

Mad Queen Malafide.7512

This picture reminds us once again that you shouldn’t judge people based on their class. Several minutes earlier this guardian told us in Lion’s Arch that he didn’t want to team up with 2 light armors and a ranger for Fractals level 20.

We managed to convince him to give it a try anyway, but he predicted that we’d find out in no time that it doesn’t work.

Our first Fractal is the swamp, we all do fine. Guess who is the first player to go down at Mossman? In fact, throughout the whole run our squishy players did really well. Our ranger hardly went down, our other necro a few times, and I hardly went down at all. The guardian was eating the dirt quite a lot throughout the whole run. It really all boils down to player skill. And no doubt some classes are better than others. There is an imbalance, make no mistake. And don’t get me wrong, this particular player wasn’t a bad guy. He finished the run with us, and we didn’t hear anything out of him after the first Fractal. So I’m not posting this to come down on the guy. But this attitude has got to stop. Just play together and have fun.

Attachments:

“Madness is just another way to view reality”
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)

(edited by Mad Queen Malafide.7512)

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Posted by: laharl.8435

laharl.8435

Light armors are playing level 80…

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Posted by: JUN YANG.4328

JUN YANG.4328

it really depends what lvl u run? how many AR he got?.. although its guardian, if he don’t have AR running 30+, will just down with one hit by the boss….
and what the build he is.. zerker and tank are so much different…

but in fact guardian its more popular in high level dungeon.
doesn’t mean HAVE to… but running 30+ i think need to have at least one guardian to do the support.

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Posted by: Neko.9021

Neko.9021

As much as I dislike this sort of attitude myself, I’m getting tired of people pointing to downed Guardians and Warriors and saying how much they suck, when in fact it’s usually these classes that are up at front meleeing things that are the real heroes in dungeons.

I notice your character is using staff, which is understandable against Mossman since he’s such a frustrating boss to melee (so I’d give a pass there), but if you were staying at range the whole time for every fractal while your Guardian was up there in melee, well…

Basically, one’s ability to stand at range and cast spells while others run up in the front and melee, holding aggro and dealing more damage, isn’t really indicative of the ranged player’s skill. It shows their ability to be carried by others willing to fight head to head, melee, with mobs.

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Posted by: Warzaw.2708

Warzaw.2708

As a ranger, I’m offended by his statement to not play with us.

No, but seriously.

There are some people who should suck it up a little, and play regardless of the setup.
Chances are some players are going to be better at dodging and utilizing their class than others; even if their class isn’t the most ideal to some. There’s always a fair chance they’ll hold out better than the person complaining.

BREAK YOURSELVES UPON MY BODY
FEEL THE STRENGTH OF THE EARTH
Vicodium – Ranger (IX) Coldsnap

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Posted by: lcpdragonslayer.7895

lcpdragonslayer.7895

I wouldn’t team up with two light armours and a ranger for FotM 48, but thankfully I’ve only ever seen one person who was silly enough to invest all that time and resources into getting a ranger up that high.

For FotM 20 it shouldn’t matter, I agree. But as Neko said, melee tend to go down a lot more than ranged, so it’s not indicative of his skill (or lack thereof) that he’s downed. If he’s meleeing and running tanky instead of zerker gear, it’s likely that Mossman is aggroed on him for 80% of the battle. If Mossman unstealths next to you because you’re not experienced enough to watch the minimap icon and swings his axe, it’s one hit KO (at least, in 48 it is, I haven’t done 20 in eons).

That said, it’s a poor attitude to come to low level fractals with. You can do any fractal under level 40 with any class composition in your party and being selective about who’s in your party shouldn’t be encouraged so early on.

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Posted by: Broadicea.8294

Broadicea.8294

I wouldn’t want to run a level 2 fractal with 2 necros and a (pug) ranger. The entitlement in this thread is ridiculous. Play How You Want to Play Unless You Don’t Want to Play With Me, I guess.

“Just play together”, says OP. “Some people should suck it up and play regardless of the group,” says another. How about you all let people make their own decisions about what teams they want to play in, and just post/join “all classes welcome” groups?

Retired. Too many casuals.

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Posted by: Wukunlin.8461

Wukunlin.8461

played with 2 necros and 2 thieves yesterday.

never again

Oceanic [LOD]

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Posted by: Young Somalia.1706

Young Somalia.1706

“Lol the melee Guard went down after complaing about NECROS! HE’S the noob!
“So what if I camp a staff, what does that have to do with anything?!”

I’m just echoing my feelings towards this sentiment. Not to say this was the OP’s attitude but… I feel negative, wanting to exclude myself from a party comp that’s glaringly low DPS, or requesting compromise that someone may reroll or make room for a better fit, and then getting punched in my face and going down unexpectedly. But be real for a moment; melee is high-risk, high-reward, and nothing scrambles my jimbobs like a worthless Guardian camping staff the whole time, weighing everybody down. I understand for certain fights (Cliffside bosses, Champ Grawl in Volcanic), but in most places it’s just….a waste of time. I’d rather have to help out a downed Guardian, recognizing that’s he’s actually doing SOMEthing, than grumble silently because I know someone will reply with, “but I can play how I want!”

Stop pointing the finger at someone getting downed a few times when they are a melee class (it’s a differeny situation if it happens every single pull, especially trash). Fact is, meleeing bosses would actually be easier for that one player if everyone was in melee range as the boss would have more than one person to pick on, AND because your longbow ranger/staff necro would actually be within range to receive all of the boons your Guardian(s) may be dishing out.

This was totally off-topic. Oh well.

Guard: Driveby Brofist; Warrior: Giganticus Elitist
[LOD]

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Posted by: Wethospu.6437

Wethospu.6437

Mossman usually focuses one person all the time (except ranged attacks).

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Posted by: LordByron.8369

LordByron.8369

guess why?
Heavy profession (not due to armor) makes the game easier…..way easier.

Most of them then proceed to come on the forum trashtalking about pugs and how easy the game is….

While the reality is heavy professions its the easy mode in pve.
It really takes effort to do badly with the perfect team.

GW2 balance:
A PvE player is supposed to avoid a 1-2 second 1 shotting aoe.
A WWW player is considered uncapable of avoiding a 5,75 second aoe for half his health.

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Posted by: DeathPanel.8362

DeathPanel.8362

This picture reminds us once again that you shouldn’t judge people based on their class. Several minutes earlier this guardian told us in Lion’s Arch that he didn’t want to team up with 2 light armors and a ranger for Fractals level 20.

We managed to convince him to give it a try anyway, but he predicted that we’d find out in no time that it doesn’t work.

Our first Fractal is the swamp, we all do fine. Guess who is the first player to go down at Mossman? In fact, throughout the whole run our squishy players did really well. Our ranger hardly went down, our other necro a few times, and I hardly went down at all. The guardian was eating the dirt quite a lot throughout the whole run. It really all boils down to player skill. And no doubt some classes are better than others. There is an imbalance, make no mistake. And don’t get me wrong, this particular player wasn’t a bad guy. He finished the run with us, and we didn’t hear anything out of him after the first Fractal. So I’m not posting this to come down on the guy. But this attitude has got to stop. Just play together and have fun.

Going down on Mossman doesn’t really prove much. High lvl fractals he will one shot anyone.

Also, having higher defense attracts more mob aggro and therefore damage so it would make sense that the guard would end up going down more if he is the only heavy armor.

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Posted by: SoliSnake.9457

SoliSnake.9457

This picture reminds us once again that you shouldn’t judge people based on their class. Several minutes earlier this guardian told us in Lion’s Arch that he didn’t want to team up with 2 light armors and a ranger for Fractals level 20.

We managed to convince him to give it a try anyway, but he predicted that we’d find out in no time that it doesn’t work.

Our first Fractal is the swamp, we all do fine. Guess who is the first player to go down at Mossman? In fact, throughout the whole run our squishy players did really well. Our ranger hardly went down, our other necro a few times, and I hardly went down at all. The guardian was eating the dirt quite a lot throughout the whole run. It really all boils down to player skill. And no doubt some classes are better than others. There is an imbalance, make no mistake. And don’t get me wrong, this particular player wasn’t a bad guy. He finished the run with us, and we didn’t hear anything out of him after the first Fractal. So I’m not posting this to come down on the guy. But this attitude has got to stop. Just play together and have fun.

can happen, consider mossman most of the time only focus 1 player for the entry fight, btw i will never run fractal with 2 necro and dont care how many light harmor in party

Solisnake(Elementalist)Lighting Rajin (Guardian)
YamataNoOrochi(Warrior)Ziggy Th White Duke(Mesmer)Aleandro De La Vega(Ranger)

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Posted by: The Mexican Cookie.3690

The Mexican Cookie.3690

Why does it seem that people are more tolerant of non-max efficient team compositions in fractals than ‘regular’ dungeons? Is there just simply something special about fractals that allows for a broader range of classes/builds to excel?

#LoveArrows2013, never forget.

(edited by The Mexican Cookie.3690)

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Posted by: Broadicea.8294

Broadicea.8294

Why does it seem that people are more tolerant of non-max efficient team compositions in fractals than ‘regular’ dungeons? Or is there just simply something special about fractals that allows for a broader range of classes/builds to excel?

I don’t think people that would discriminate on dungeon runs are more tolerant. It’s the same group of people making or joining “all class” runs for both. I think those of us that discriminate are probably even less tolerant when it comes to fractals since you know you have to be stuck with that crap-tastic group for an hour or more.

Retired. Too many casuals.

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Posted by: colesy.8490

colesy.8490

Just wondering, was this guardian in melee taking the aggro while you all camped with range?

If that’s the case, then it’s unsurprising he died.

Sanctum of Rall (NA) – [LOD] – PvE/Dungeon Phantasm Mesmer build
Morrï (Mesmer) | Serah Mahariel (Guardian) | Morrï Mahariel (Warrior)
“colesy’s on rampage today. Slaying casuals left, right and centre” – spoj

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Posted by: Mad Queen Malafide.7512

Mad Queen Malafide.7512

This is something I’m struggling to understand. Does everything have to be a full guardian/warrior zerg composition? In lower Fractals like level 20, other class combinations work fine. It’s not like we’re doing a speed run. We’re just doing a normal Fractal run, and what classes join us should not matter. What matters is that you can work together, and have fun.

By the way Neko, while I do use a staff, I’m mostly a mid range to close combat necromancer. I alternate between teleporting and chilling enemies through death shroud, meleeing with scepter and dagger, hitting them with life transfer and torment, and then going to mid range again. I try to keep Mossman chilled and crippled, so he has a hard time chasing other players. I also provide support with healing and condition removal (especially handy at the flame shaman). I do get plenty of aggro myself, due to high toughness and being close to the enemies. So I’d say aggro was not 100% on just the guardian. I don’t blame the guy for going down at Mossman (as people have said, you run more risk as a melee class), but I think no player should have this anti-light armor attitude, when he doesn’t know how good the players are. The whole team was definitely pulling it’s weight, and working together. We were quick to help the guardian and anyone else back on their feet, and our damage output and dodging were pretty good as well. We even did well at the flame shaman, which is always a pain when that Fractal pops up.

The screenshot was taken at the start of the battle. So this was the very first second that we entered combat with Mossman. And keep in mind that we also had a warrior on top of the boss. So he wasn’t alone.

“Madness is just another way to view reality”
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)

(edited by Mad Queen Malafide.7512)

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Posted by: Wukunlin.8461

Wukunlin.8461

Why does it seem that people are more tolerant of non-max efficient team compositions in fractals than ‘regular’ dungeons? Is there just simply something special about fractals that allows for a broader range of classes/builds to excel?

it is not as profitable (a lot of the cases not profitable at all) so harder to find groups, therefore less picky.

Oceanic [LOD]

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Posted by: SoliSnake.9457

SoliSnake.9457

Why does it seem that people are more tolerant of non-max efficient team compositions in fractals than ‘regular’ dungeons? Is there just simply something special about fractals that allows for a broader range of classes/builds to excel?

because a bad fractal run can be eternal

Solisnake(Elementalist)Lighting Rajin (Guardian)
YamataNoOrochi(Warrior)Ziggy Th White Duke(Mesmer)Aleandro De La Vega(Ranger)

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Posted by: The Mexican Cookie.3690

The Mexican Cookie.3690

The three answers I got, were all pretty much completely different lol

#LoveArrows2013, never forget.

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Posted by: Mad Queen Malafide.7512

Mad Queen Malafide.7512

Why does it seem that people are more tolerant of non-max efficient team compositions in fractals than ‘regular’ dungeons? Is there just simply something special about fractals that allows for a broader range of classes/builds to excel?

I haven’t seen many teams do speed runs in Fractals, probably because Fractals has a lot of things that prevent speed running. Fractals is also more forgiving to less efficient teams.

I think if you intend to do multiple CoF runs in a row, that speed becomes important. And thus the most efficient classes become favored. But a Fractals run is usually just a single thing. You just do the thing from start to finish, and then move on to something else. So there’s no rush. You can bring almost any team composition (although I have tried a full ranger team, and that was really difficult).

A mixed team such as mine, should not be an issue. You’ve already got a guardian and a warrior, so that’s your main DPS. You’ve got two necro’s, and necros can do quite a bit of tanking when needed, along with a lot of support and condition spam. And you’ve got one ranger. I don’t think that one ranger is going to be the deal breaker here. Fractals doesn’t really rely on carefully pulling enemies, and thus the pet isn’t so much an issue. I’m not seeing the problem here.

If the light armored players know how to dodge, then your damage output should be good enough, and you won’t have to revive them a lot at all. (They might be the ones reviving the tougher classes instead)

“Madness is just another way to view reality”
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)

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Posted by: Wukunlin.8461

Wukunlin.8461

I can’t agree with that. Everything becomes giant health sponges at higher lvls dps matters ALOT. Trash mobs also start to hit like a truck so a messed up LoS can easily cause a wipe. The last thing you need in fractals is tanking. 1 necro in fractals is okay for the blindspam on trash mobs. guardian blindspam starts when the first of the mobs start dying so a thief/necro to start the blinding before that is nice.

Having said that, I’ve seen exactly 1 pug thief that uses blackpowder when doing trash. The rest either camp shortbow or D/D for their OP backstabs.

Also, rallying by killing is the best way to revive in fractals. rooting yourself in one place to rally someone will get you killed 7 times out of 10

Oceanic [LOD]

(edited by Wukunlin.8461)

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Posted by: Mad Queen Malafide.7512

Mad Queen Malafide.7512

I can’t agree with that. Everything becomes giant health sponges at higher lvls dps matters ALOT. Trash mobs also start to hit like a truck so a messed up LoS can easily cause a wipe.

I agree with you that when you are running Fractal levels between 30 or 40, that it becomes a lot less forgiving.

But this is Fractals level 20. It shouldn’t matter at such lower levels.

“Madness is just another way to view reality”
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)

(edited by Mad Queen Malafide.7512)

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Posted by: Wukunlin.8461

Wukunlin.8461

oh I thought cookie meant fractals in general, nvm :P

Oceanic [LOD]

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Posted by: Anubarak.3012

Anubarak.3012

Why does it seem that people are more tolerant of non-max efficient team compositions in fractals than ‘regular’ dungeons? Is there just simply something special about fractals that allows for a broader range of classes/builds to excel?

Because pugs don’t melee all bosses so it doesn’t matter if you have 3 warriors/ 2 guards or something else.
I never saw a pug melee mossmann or grawlshaman

btw lol @topic “this guard must be really bad because he went down – but I’m able to range him down and kite him around.. I’m so great”
I don’t want to have necros and ranger too but that’s only because they range everything… You have a dagger… use it

[rT]

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Posted by: olleandersson.9408

olleandersson.9408

I got my ranger up to FoTM 52, and i’m doing just fine. Haven’t seen a single complaint by any of my group members. The reason why everybody hates on rangers is because most people play them WRONG. Sadly, it affects all of us… Rangers aren’t bad, if the player knows how to handle one. So all the talk about ‘’uhh every ranger suck’’ is complete bs.

~ [LuPi] Lupi Stole My Bike ~
Melee ranger since launch.

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Posted by: The Mexican Cookie.3690

The Mexican Cookie.3690

oh I thought cookie meant fractals in general, nvm :P

For what it’s worth, I did mean in general. But the answers describing it depends on level works out pretty well.

#LoveArrows2013, never forget.

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Posted by: Erasculio.2914

Erasculio.2914

As much as I dislike this sort of attitude myself, I’m getting tired of people pointing to downed Guardians and Warriors and saying how much they suck, when in fact it’s usually these classes that are up at front meleeing things that are the real heroes in dungeons.

In the OP’s example, if the downed character had been a Necromancer using a Power dagger build in melee, I’m sure people would point it as proof that light armor professions are bad. Same if it had been a dagger/dagger Elementalist.

Saying “It’s ok to die a few times in melee because it’s high risk/high reward” doesn’t really apply only to Guardians and Warriors, despite how that’s what the community would make you think.

“I think that players are starting to mature past the point of wanting to be on that
treadmill, of being in that obvious pattern of every time I catch up you are going to
put another carrot in front of me” – Mike O’Brien right before Ascended weapons

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Posted by: Mad Queen Malafide.7512

Mad Queen Malafide.7512

btw lol @topic “this guard must be really bad because he went down – but I’m able to range him down and kite him around.. I’m so great”
I don’t want to have necros and ranger too but that’s only because they range everything… You have a dagger… use it

Lots of presumptions there. I wasn’t saying the guardian was bad. He simply died the moment we started combat with Mossman, after first complaining about the lesser armored classes and the ranger. I think that’s a dumb thing to do, to judge people based on their class, rather than their level of skill.

Besides, like I said, I also go in for close combat and into medium range with my necro. But each class plays differently. If you play a ranged class, then of course you use ranged attacks. How is that an argument? Either way you risk aggro and getting hit. Guardians just happen to be mostly close combat, but they also have far more abilities to deal with close combat, such as blocks and invulnerability.

And by the way, I DO use my dagger. I also use my scepter. I play a front line necro. This really isn’t about me being great. It’s about not discriminating based on class for what is a low level Fractal.

In the OP’s example, if the downed character had been a Necromancer using a Power dagger build in melee, I’m sure people would point it as proof that light armor professions are bad. Same if it had been a dagger/dagger Elementalist.

My point exactly. And there are other bosses in Fractals that we faced. We also had to deal with the Dredge Power suit, who hits melee and ranged classes just the same. Why this double standard? If a guardian goes down, it’s expected because he gets all the aggro (which isn’t true), but when a necro survives it’s because he/she is only using ranged and thus not taking any risks (which also isn’t true, because plenty of necros fight front line and take a lot of aggro).

People need to get over this sort of elitism and class discrimination. It’s only a low level Fractal. You can take anyone you want! It isn’t a speed run!

“Madness is just another way to view reality”
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)

(edited by Mad Queen Malafide.7512)

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Posted by: pullnointer.1476

pullnointer.1476

As much as I dislike this sort of attitude myself, I’m getting tired of people pointing to downed Guardians and Warriors and saying how much they suck, when in fact it’s usually these classes that are up at front meleeing things that are the real heroes in dungeons.

I notice your character is using staff, which is understandable against Mossman since he’s such a frustrating boss to melee (so I’d give a pass there), but if you were staying at range the whole time for every fractal while your Guardian was up there in melee, well…

Basically, one’s ability to stand at range and cast spells while others run up in the front and melee, holding aggro and dealing more damage, isn’t really indicative of the ranged player’s skill. It shows their ability to be carried by others willing to fight head to head, melee, with mobs.

this x1000

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Posted by: Mad Queen Malafide.7512

Mad Queen Malafide.7512

I’m not sure why you’re giving him such praise Pullnointer, because that post is full of presumptions. The idea that the guardian carries the whole team by default is complete nonsense. You are a team after all, and the guardian relies just as much on the team to assist him, as the team does on the guardian to tank.

And our team had a warrior on top of that, to assist the guardian, and me also taking aggro. So aggro was pretty much shared across three players, with the rest providing ranged support. You play as a team, and the guardian is definitely not doing all the work.

Besides, not all of Fractals relies on melee or on tanking. There’s also the Categorized Fractal, where the harpies with their annoying knockback skills are a bother to all. And I dare say my Lich Form combined with fear, took out a lot of them. In a good group, no one relies purely on one player just because he happens to be playing a guardian. You play as a team, and assist each other.

“Madness is just another way to view reality”
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)

(edited by Mad Queen Malafide.7512)

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Posted by: Xhyros.1340

Xhyros.1340

I got my ranger up to FoTM 52, and i’m doing just fine. Haven’t seen a single complaint by any of my group members. The reason why everybody hates on rangers is because most people play them WRONG. Sadly, it affects all of us… Rangers aren’t bad, if the player knows how to handle one. So all the talk about ‘’uhh every ranger suck’’ is complete bs.

Pretty much this. The lighter classes tend to draw people of a more… “inferior” mindset. People who play mages want typically want to stay at range using the archetypical mage weapon, the staff. People who play rangers want to typically stay at range using the archetypical archer weapon, the bow. As such, lighter classes tend to draw the more lazy players who want to play safe and don’t want to learn to dodge. This is especially true for the ranger, especially when said ranger wants to go super lazy mode and packs a bear, sets it to F1 and forgets about it, or better yet, keeps a pet on passive the entirety of the fight.

That may work in other games where your lighter class had range and only range with quite high damage, but not here where at least one of your melee weapons by far trumps any of your range weapon’s damage output.

Unfortunately, due to many players of these classes having the same mindset, it makes it easy, and pretty much justifiable to have that guardian’s opinion. Have YOU ever played a the sole heavy in a party, where none of the others ever go melee? It’s pretty much hell on your survivability unless you go super tanky. What happens then? You have one super tanky melee with paltry damage, and 4 “ranged dps” players (also inferior damage). Enemies take longer to kill, tanky melee player is nearly dying all the time, quietly (or not) stewing in anger at those “ranged dps” classes, develops prejudice against them.

And no, there is no way you can determine if one of these players are going to be a full time range baby. Achievement points, you would think, would indirectly translate to experience with the game, so you would think that those with higher points would realize the truth of this, or at least have alts of “melee classes” so they know the truth of their inferior range dps and have experience of playing in melee range. Nope. Had a party with 2 rangers, one had around 2500 points, the other had nearly 7000. The 2500 point ranger was the one with the non bear pet using sword/warhorn like a boss. The 7000 pointer had a longbow 24/7 WITH A BROWN BEAR ON PASSIVE.

Oh yeah, add to the fact that when going in situations where it’s just not viable to melee, guess which class has the best single target ranged dps weapon. Oh look, it’s not one of the “ranged classes”, nope it’s the class with the least viable pvp range options, the guardian. So… there’s that too. Not sure which class has the best ranged multi-target dps though. The guardian staff auto is actually pretty good autoattack-wise since it hits 5 targets and all other melee auto attacks, barring a few exceptions, hit 3. With a non-full zerker set-up my staff autos typically crit around 2k, to up to 5 targets = 10k per crit. Greatsword was like… 3k, 3k, 4k up to 3 targets = 9k, 9k, 12k per crit.

Tl;dr the “non-trinity” classes aren’t inherently bad classes. They just attract more bad players than the others do because bad (for GW2) players think staves and bows are the coolest, always.

(edited by Xhyros.1340)

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Posted by: colesy.8490

colesy.8490

Ranged “support”, as in doing pitiful damage and allowing the melee classes to sponge all of the hits.

What a terrible guardian you had, sponging all of the aggro while allowing the ranged players to just pew-pew away.

Sanctum of Rall (NA) – [LOD] – PvE/Dungeon Phantasm Mesmer build
Morrï (Mesmer) | Serah Mahariel (Guardian) | Morrï Mahariel (Warrior)
“colesy’s on rampage today. Slaying casuals left, right and centre” – spoj

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Posted by: Mad Queen Malafide.7512

Mad Queen Malafide.7512

What a terrible guardian you had, sponging all of the aggro while allowing the ranged players to just pew-pew away.

He wasn’t terrible at all. He just had a bad mindset before starting the run. Probably due to the general mindset of a lot of people on this forum.

He did make the mistake of opening combat with Mossman, thus getting the aggro, and not dodging out of the way when Mossman jumped him immediately (that’s what happens when you open combat with Mossman, you become his main target).

Again, I want to stress that I didn’t make this thread to criticize this particular player. He did a decent job. It’s the mindset, and the irony of being the first one to go down after making such a statement. And many people in this thread are guilty of this same mindset, thus maintaining this stigma that you need guardians, warriors and mesmers for something as simple as Fractals.

Pretty much this. The lighter classes tend to draw people of a more… “inferior” mindset. People who play mages want typically want to stay at range using the archetypical mage weapon, the staff. People who play rangers want to typically stay at range using the archetypical archer weapon, the bow. As such, lighter classes tend to draw the more lazy players who want to play safe and don’t want to learn to dodge.

I don’t think this is necessarily true for all light-armor classes. I think if you were to ask around the necromancer forum, many would in fact argue that due to the short comings of the class, many of them are really good at playing their class. And the same could be said for rangers. If anything, guardian is the easiest way out. Everyone wants to roll a guardian, because the squishier classes are harder to play.

“Madness is just another way to view reality”
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)

(edited by Mad Queen Malafide.7512)

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Posted by: Wukunlin.8461

Wukunlin.8461

Tl;dr the “non-trinity” classes aren’t inherently bad classes. They just attract more bad players than the others do because bad (for GW2) players think staves and bows are the coolest, always.

I didn’t read the whole post but from the tl;dr and the first few sentences you are pretty much spot on.
Ele viable in speedclears or solid fractal team? hell yeah
ele who camp staff and water attunement? nty

Oceanic [LOD]

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Posted by: Afya.5842

Afya.5842

I srsly don’t think range is the problem. tbh, I’ll always prefer range in pug rather than try meleeing. Rather it longer than wipe.

srsly, why well of power, why spectral walk? Plague, are you trying to blind mossman or what? where does that 73 come from? it’s catastrophically low for anything I can think of.

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Posted by: Mad Queen Malafide.7512

Mad Queen Malafide.7512

srsly, why well of power, why spectral walk? Plague, are you trying to blind mossman or what? where does that 73 come from? it’s catastrophically low for anything I can think of.

Our guardian kind of rushed into the boss, allowing us no time to change skills. Well of power and spectral walk were of course very useful for the Swamp fractal when running the whisps, but less so for the boss battle. I don’t know what the 73 is from. Maybe fear? I don’t know. There’s so many numbers flying around. It could even be one of those little Jagged Horrors. I usually run Plague for much of Fractals, but would definitely have wanted to swap it out for Lich Form, had I been given the time.

“Madness is just another way to view reality”
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)

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Posted by: Xhyros.1340

Xhyros.1340

What a terrible guardian you had, sponging all of the aggro while allowing the ranged players to just pew-pew away.

He wasn’t terrible at all. He just had a bad mindset before starting the run. Probably due to the general mindset of a lot of people on this forum.

He did make the mistake of opening combat with Mossman, thus getting the aggro, and not dodging out of the way when Mossman jumped him immediately (that’s what happens when you open combat with Mossman, you become his main target).

Again, I want to stress that I didn’t make this thread to criticize this particular player. He did a decent job. It’s the mindset, and the irony of being the first one to go down after making such a statement. And many people in this thread are guilty of this same mindset, thus maintaining this stigma that you need guardians, warriors and mesmers for something as simple as Fractals.

Pretty much this. The lighter classes tend to draw people of a more… “inferior” mindset. People who play mages want typically want to stay at range using the archetypical mage weapon, the staff. People who play rangers want to typically stay at range using the archetypical archer weapon, the bow. As such, lighter classes tend to draw the more lazy players who want to play safe and don’t want to learn to dodge.

I don’t think this is necessarily true for all light-armor classes. I think if you were to ask around the necromancer forum, many would in fact argue that due to the short comings of the class, many of them are really good at playing their class. And the same could be said for rangers. If anything, guardian is the easiest way out. Everyone wants to roll a guardian, because the squishier classes are harder to play.

I meant medium + light when I said lighter, as they are both lighter than the heavies.

I rarely ever see a necromancer, but when I do, it’s a staff 24/7 necro. I dread seeing them in pvp (opposite team), and I dread seeing them in dungeons. How many would those many be? Twenty? I have to play with one of those players out of the sea of all the others to get one that can play? Though I guess with fractals this isn’t as much of an issue with the more midling-high levels, I mean, what bad necro is going to play fractals enough to get that high? Rangers are a much more commonly played class, because BOWS! and as such, it’s more common to see bad rangers filtering through up to those levels by virtue of numbers.

Everyone rolls a guardian/warrior because GREATSWORDS! Fortunately though, this kind of mindset works out, because greatswords are good dps (except warrior GS autoattacks, those are really bad).

Also, yeah guardians are pretty much awesome/easy. Best defensive utilities and the most forgiving melee play make for a great newbie class. The fact that they can also be a great pro class by upping the glass factor makes them a class that is easy to do well with, but still rewarding to more skilled players. I mean come on, they pretty much have an OH 5H17 GET ME OUT OF HERE button as an elite that doubles as a burst of team utility. They can also provide 10 seconds of team quickness with their elite (on a lower cooldown than the mesmer’s) if they have no need of that invulnerability elite.

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Posted by: Afya.5842

Afya.5842

srsly, why well of power, why spectral walk? Plague, are you trying to blind mossman or what? where does that 73 come from? it’s catastrophically low for anything I can think of.

Our guardian kind of rushed into the boss, allowing us no time to change skills. Well of power and spectral walk were of course very useful for the Swamp fractal when running the whisps, but less so for the boss battle. I don’t know what the 73 is from. Maybe fear? I don’t know. There’s so many numbers flying around. It could even be one of those little Jagged Horrors. I usually run Plague for much of Fractals, but would definitely have wanted to swap it out for Lich Form, had I been given the time.

Ahhh, makes sense.

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Posted by: Mad Queen Malafide.7512

Mad Queen Malafide.7512

I rarely ever see a necromancer, but when I do, it’s a staff 24/7 necro. I dread seeing them in pvp (opposite team), and I dread seeing them in dungeons. How many would those many be? Twenty? I have to play with one of those players out of the sea of all the others to get one that can play? Though I guess with fractals this isn’t as much of an issue with the more midling-high levels, I mean, what bad necro is going to play fractals enough to get that high? Rangers are a much more commonly played class, because BOWS! and as such, it’s more common to see bad rangers filtering through up to those levels by virtue of numbers.

Staff is one of the best weapons for the necro, so it is no wonder that almost all necros use it to some extend. It’s the best aoe weapon for the necro, and best for condition builds and fear builds. Good necros also switch to close combat frequently while their staff skills are on cool down, and make frequent use of Death Shroud. But it is true that you don’t see a lot of necros compared to other classes, for obvious reasons. Especially now that we got the nerf hammer again. But I think chances are that any necro that you team up with can play his/her class well, or they would have switched to guardian already.

As for rangers, I have certainly seen a large number of bad rangers. Not just because of bows, but because of pets (which are adorable, until you find out how bad they are in PVE). But I don’t discriminate because someone plays a ranger. I’ll take 2 rangers along (probably not 3), and I have had the pleasure of having some really good rangers in my party. I can’t really measure their damage output of course, but I judge them purely looking at how many times I have had to revive them. Yes, there are a lot of bad rangers. But I still bring them along. It’s only Fractals.

Ahhh, makes sense.

When you’re stuck with your skillbar, you make the best of it. Spectral Walk can be used to quickly lose Mossman when he starts chasing you. And Plague can spam cripple and bleed on Mossman, so it’s not totally useless. Well of Power is my default condition removal regardless, because it also removes conditions from allies (which is a blessing at the flame shaman boss).

But yeah, had I been giving the chance, I would probably have quickly swapped to Well of Suffering with targeted wells, and Blood is Power perhaps.

“Madness is just another way to view reality”
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)

(edited by Mad Queen Malafide.7512)

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Posted by: Neko.9021

Neko.9021

I can’t agree with that. Everything becomes giant health sponges at higher lvls dps matters ALOT. Trash mobs also start to hit like a truck so a messed up LoS can easily cause a wipe.

I agree with you that when you are running Fractal levels between 30 or 40, that it becomes a lot less forgiving.

But this is Fractals level 20. It shouldn’t matter at such lower levels.

Let me get this straight. Since this is a level 20 fractal, the community should tolerate suboptimal builds, because it’s easy, and thus I can waste other’s time by not playing full DPS?

You know, I’m starting to see why, ever since I got 45 AR on my Ele and Guard, and started PUGing FOTM 48, I’ve had generally much better experiences and speedier runs than trying to PUG something like 10, 18, 20, 26, 30, or 38.

(edited by Neko.9021)

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Posted by: colesy.8490

colesy.8490

Play how you want Neko! Play how you want! Why should you people get so mad just because I want to leech off you with my mf gear!

Sanctum of Rall (NA) – [LOD] – PvE/Dungeon Phantasm Mesmer build
Morrï (Mesmer) | Serah Mahariel (Guardian) | Morrï Mahariel (Warrior)
“colesy’s on rampage today. Slaying casuals left, right and centre” – spoj

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Posted by: Konrad.9587

Konrad.9587

I’m not entirely sure what is the purpose of this thread. Are you complaining about someone getting downed on Mossman (not a big deal, considering only one or two people in melee), or are you complaining about someone being not so keen on running with a sub-optimal team?

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Posted by: Mad Queen Malafide.7512

Mad Queen Malafide.7512

Let me get this straight. Since this is a level 20 fractal, the community should tolerate suboptimal builds, because it’s easy, and thus I can waste other’s time by not playing full DPS?

Please tell me why the community should dictate to other players what the optimal build is that they should be running? That seems entirely against the spirit of the game, and against the joy of playing with random people.

Also, since this isn’t a speed run, no one’s time is being wasted. When ever you team up with random people for Fractals, you can get bad team members who die all the time, regardless of their class or build. But you can also get good players regardless of their class or build, who don’t die at all.

And who decided all of a sudden that everyone must be playing a full DPS build?

I’m not entirely sure what is the purpose of this thread. Are you complaining about someone getting downed on Mossman (not a big deal, considering only one or two people in melee), or are you complaining about someone being not so keen on running with a sub-optimal team?

I’m not keen on the attitude against certain classes, without first having seen how those players actually perform in battle. It seems inherently arrogant to assume that your prows in combat are undisputed because you are playing a guardian, yet others are by default bad because they play a ranger or a necro.

“Madness is just another way to view reality”
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)

(edited by Mad Queen Malafide.7512)

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Posted by: Quam.7218

Quam.7218

SNIP

Every topic goes same way to gear and build and weapons… duh

Bou back to the topic, I also don’t concentrate on “class” rather what skill that that player have I always post “Every class welcome, just know how to play yours”.

I went with my Thief (on lvl 28 fractal), 2 more Thief joined and than a Guardian joined and said “lol 3 thiefs really ?” and left the group… a Engi joined, the guardian joined again and said “lol really hahahahaha” and than left again and finally an ele joined – so 3x thief, engi, ele.

Swamp with Bloomhunger (lucky), dredge (soooo fast!) and didn’t remember the 3rd…

but that was one of my fastest fractal run ever it was so smooth and so fast I could not belive at first, but after that experience I also come in conclusion that what matters is personal skill and knowledge how to play before what class You play.

(edited by Quam.7218)

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Posted by: Mad Queen Malafide.7512

Mad Queen Malafide.7512

I rarely see engineers teaming up with players in Fractals, and also not so many Thieves, sadly (on my server). It is a shame really, because it would make for an interesting party composition.

I’ve also had none-guardian party members that didn’t want to start a Fractal, unless at least one guardian came along. That is also bad. Because the team usually did fine even without one.

Part of the fun of the game, in my opinion, is discussing tactics with your team. If we don’t have a tank, then we talk skills and what to bring. I often make sure that everyone is aware of each others builds, so we compliment each other. If the team is lacking a tank or melee class, then one of the other classes can switch to that role. In some cases I’ve even taken the roll of tank with my necro, to keep enemies busy in CoF p3, while the rangers and eles picked off the mobs. Adapting to your team composition is part of the fun. Isn’t it really boring to demand only guardians, warriors and mesmers for content that does not require them?

“Madness is just another way to view reality”
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)

(edited by Mad Queen Malafide.7512)

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Posted by: colesy.8490

colesy.8490

No, it’s not.

Wiping because of a mixture of crap class composition, bad gear and bad players is boring. Running dungeons in an organised group is actually a lot of fun, it’s farming them for their “rewards” which is the dull part, and once I get my legendary I will end up just running dungeons every now and then purely for the fun aspect.

Sanctum of Rall (NA) – [LOD] – PvE/Dungeon Phantasm Mesmer build
Morrï (Mesmer) | Serah Mahariel (Guardian) | Morrï Mahariel (Warrior)
“colesy’s on rampage today. Slaying casuals left, right and centre” – spoj

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Posted by: Mad Queen Malafide.7512

Mad Queen Malafide.7512

Succeeding with a mixed class composition can be pretty rewarding in itself. You can still be pretty organized without running a cooky-cutter composition.

Wiping is always disappointing, regardless of group composition. But when you work together and are victorious, that’s a lot of fun. And most of my Fractal experiences so far have been like that.

“Madness is just another way to view reality”
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)

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Posted by: Neko.9021

Neko.9021

Let me get this straight. Since this is a level 20 fractal, the community should tolerate suboptimal builds, because it’s easy, and thus I can waste other’s time by not playing full DPS?

Please tell me why the community should dictate to other players what the optimal build is that they should be running? That seems entirely against the spirit of the game, and against the joy of playing with random people.

Also, since this isn’t a speed run, no one’s time is being wasted. When ever you team up with random people for Fractals, you can get bad team members who die all the time, regardless of their class or build. But you can also get good players regardless of their class or build, who don’t die at all.

And who decided all of a sudden that everyone must be playing a full DPS build?

I think people get the wrong idea of what it means to speedrun. Sometimes people want to do a dungeon but not spend 2 hours on it.

If I go into a group and decide to run around and not fight anything, just letting my team mates do all the work while I /sleep in the background, would this simply be acceptable variance in playstyle, or would it perhaps be highly inconsiderate of the people who all decided to sit down and play with me?

Playing DPS, to the very best of your ability (wearing as much Berserker as you can and taking as offensive traits as you can personally handle), is not a sign of elitism or snobbery of someone that ones a speedclear run only. It’s a sign that one values not only their own time, but the time of those around them, as they try to help complete the content in an as efficient manner as possible.

What I see in this is a sense of entitlement. A sense that because I have the time to just play around in a dungeon and use whatever build I want, others should wholeheartedly accept me, because obviously everyone has a luxuriously large amount of time to spend doing one instance, just like I do. And besides, the melee character has a Warrior to help him too. Look at that! They can both hold aggro together, and I’ll offer midrange support as I make a few dagger stabs (see, I can be melee too!) and then run off in deathshroud back to midrange (which still says “range” in the name). It couldn’t possibly be that some people in this party dichotomy are benefiting more by the sum total of work than others. Hmm.

Anyway, that’s my opinion of dungeons and content. As a Dagger/X or Hammer/X Ele player who has Meleed in full Berserker gear while the Guardian sits back with Scepter and the Warrior with Rifle, I feel great sympathy for my fellow frontliners, and I greatly dislike those who seek to mock them when they fall onto the floor for their valiant efforts because others were too busy offering “Ranged support”.

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Posted by: laokoko.7403

laokoko.7403

This picture reminds us once again that you shouldn’t judge people based on their class.

And no doubt some classes are better than others. There is an imbalance, make no mistake.

Nothing more to say. Just because there is 1 good run, don’t mean there are many other bad runs.

I’d like to increase my chance of having smoother run.