Guild Wars 2

HEAR ME OUT BEFORE U MAKE PREJUDICE COMMENTS!
first i begin with, sorry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! for asking this kind of question, i know its hated, but ive been surfing forums for a while, and going to QT’s website along with Acadamy’s tier list ( which seems kinda sketch since its by voting). None of which gave me the answer i wanted

I really want this post to be a comprehensive sorta guide and place for returning plays that bought HOT on sale (which i know are quite a few) this month!

HERES THE QUESTION:

for PvE group play, so fractals raids dungeons etc. (and im not talking about leveling up or none of that stuff)
What are THE ROLES of each class in a group (with most popular build lets say) and what are their TIER LIST (just provide a brief sentence or few sentence for each class if you can)
Tier list as in desirability and the brief explanation explains WHY they are good or bad at what they do and WHAT DO the classes actually do! Also assume the controlling player has good skill. Not Perfect skill scenario. But good.
For example indicate if a class is primary damage, or gives buffs, or spreads conditions or take care of mobs with aoe etc.
i do not necessarily mean damage tier list, but for example, if class 1 and class 2 both are both damage roles or identical per say, but, class 1 is simply better than class 2, then obviously it would be at a higher tier.

Personally ive been playing Necro before i quit, i have a few fun little soulbound stuff on it and would like to keep playing it if its still a good class, but i low key want to just quit and play something fresh (also because what ive read so far seems all to point that Necros are not that good, but idk WHY its not good, is it because the class cant fulfill its purpose/role anymore? spreading condi is not good? condi doesnt do dmg? like WHATS the REASON)

I know this IS A LOT to ask. but me and a dozen of my friends really want to get back harder than we’ve played before and we honestly are just so lost, im sure so are many others that bought HOT this month that aren’t as pro as you fellas would like to know as well!

(i will change the title after this has been answered, to be easier searched on google for other players coming back)

I will also put the answer to be edited in this post so other players looking for the same answer do not need to scroll through so many comments!

necros aren’t that bad sure they got rekt with the latest balance patch but their crazy survivability make up for their not so great dps thats why they are atm the easiest class to have in fractals.

OK well, so there’s a lot of things you are asking here, mainly because there’s a pretty massive difference in group play between Fractals and Raids for instance.

I suppose it would be best to go with the simple roles that each profession does, but bear in mind that although you might be asking for the most optimal setups, none of the high end PvE content requires you to run those setups unless you want to speedrun competitively which for what you guys want (coming back to the game fresh), might not be the best thing to start with.

Warrior: Might Generation. Due to Phalanx Strength, Warriors are the top slot for generating Might for the group, they will contribute most of the might without the need of fire fields. And with Might being pretty much a must-have for melting bosses quickly, you will see either the Power Variant or Condition Variant of the PS Warrior in each 5-man group (meaning two for raids). Also Banners.

Mesmer: Quickness/Alacrity Generator. Mesmers have a similar role to Warriors, but Mesmers lose in the damage department, which is why you will see Chronomancers going ‘Tank’ for Raiding, or simply ‘Damage’ for Fractals. Despite the low damage, Chronomancers have the invaluable Quickness and Alacrity buffs that are must-haves for any comps, plus their lack of damage is made of for several utilities for any type of encounter. A good mesmer can carry any group.

Elementalist: Raw Damage, Elementalists are kings of Power DPS. Large Hitbox monsters and swarms of adds crumble under their DPS, but a lot of the elementalists power relies on buffs from the group. A Disclipline Banner + Fury Buff will make an Elementalist very happy to break DPS records, but because they lack a lot of everything else, you want to cover those bases first.

Necromancer: Originally the Kings of Condition DPS, but they have gotten a fairly unjustified nerf, which actually did not hurt their spot in group content. Mainly because although they don’t come close to Elementalist DPS numbers overall, Conditions and Epidemic are their bread and butter for debilitating and destroying monsters. They are especially wanted in Fractals for Epidemic Spam, you will see ‘4 necro 1 druid’ condi groups quite a lot. Still, given their current state, you could get away with in Raids running the much more harder to play Condi Engi if you want a slightly higher condition damage edge in certain encounters, but Necro is a safe bet.

Ranger: Heals? HEALS! Druid is a solid pick for healing, and spirits are a unique buff like Banners to increase the group DPS. To put it into perspective from here, the current raid meta is Two Warriors, Two Mesmers, Two Rangers, but there are variances based on the encounter, you might roll a single Druid for instance!

Guardian: Upper level damage, and a reliable way to have Protection in your group. The group won’t feel any offensive buffs from a Guardian, instead Guardians will help ensure everyone is feeling the heat a lot less. Healers will like Guards, well except for Tempest Healer who can do their own Protection, but that’s a specific build I don’t cover here

Engineer: You have to feel for engineers, they are hell of a lot of fun to play, they have just as much tools as Mesmers do. Yet, despite all of that, the ‘Meta’ has phased them out as they are like a Jack of all Trades without providing group buffs. If Engineers could provide a trait with group buff raising Condition Damage by 180, something like that might be enough to push them more in use. Well, at least you can all watch pro engineers solo hard fractal bosses.

Thief: Close to matching DPS numbers with Ele, and a good supplement to a Raid comp needing a bit more CC with passive Basilisk Venom applying to nearby allies. Not a bad pick if you want a melee instead of a ranged DPS for an encounter, plus you can’t argue with that flip!

Revenant: A recent change to how key offensive boons functioned has utterly decimated this profession from even normal Raid comps. It’s not as if it were a bad idea to take them, but in the slot they took would be some key buff missing from the group in exchange for CC you might not need, Fury you already have, and/or DPS you really want. Mind you, this is the ‘Raid’ mentality here, Fractals are perfectly fine for the profession.

I hope this helps.

Sykper.6583:

OK well, so there’s a lot of things you are asking here, mainly because there’s a pretty massive difference in group play between Fractals and Raids for instance.

I suppose it would be best to go with the simple roles that each profession does, but bear in mind that although you might be asking for the most optimal setups, none of the high end PvE content requires you to run those setups unless you want to speedrun competitively which for what you guys want (coming back to the game fresh), might not be the best thing to start with.

Warrior: Might Generation. Due to Phalanx Strength, Warriors are the top slot for generating Might for the group, they will contribute most of the might without the need of fire fields. And with Might being pretty much a must-have for melting bosses quickly, you will see either the Power Variant or Condition Variant of the PS Warrior in each 5-man group (meaning two for raids). Also Banners.

Mesmer: Quickness/Alacrity Generator. Mesmers have a similar role to Warriors, but Mesmers lose in the damage department, which is why you will see Chronomancers going ‘Tank’ for Raiding, or simply ‘Damage’ for Fractals. Despite the low damage, Chronomancers have the invaluable Quickness and Alacrity buffs that are must-haves for any comps, plus their lack of damage is made of for several utilities for any type of encounter. A good mesmer can carry any group.

Elementalist: Raw Damage, Elementalists are kings of Power DPS. Large Hitbox monsters and swarms of adds crumble under their DPS, but a lot of the elementalists power relies on buffs from the group. A Disclipline Banner + Fury Buff will make an Elementalist very happy to break DPS records, but because they lack a lot of everything else, you want to cover those bases first.

Necromancer: Originally the Kings of Condition DPS, but they have gotten a fairly unjustified nerf, which actually did not hurt their spot in group content. Mainly because although they don’t come close to Elementalist DPS numbers overall, Conditions and Epidemic are their bread and butter for debilitating and destroying monsters. They are especially wanted in Fractals for Epidemic Spam, you will see ‘4 necro 1 druid’ condi groups quite a lot. Still, given their current state, you could get away with in Raids running the much more harder to play Condi Engi if you want a slightly higher condition damage edge in certain encounters, but Necro is a safe bet.

Ranger: Heals? HEALS! Druid is a solid pick for healing, and spirits are a unique buff like Banners to increase the group DPS. To put it into perspective from here, the current raid meta is Two Warriors, Two Mesmers, Two Rangers, but there are variances based on the encounter, you might roll a single Druid for instance!

Guardian: Upper level damage, and a reliable way to have Protection in your group. The group won’t feel any offensive buffs from a Guardian, instead Guardians will help ensure everyone is feeling the heat a lot less. Healers will like Guards, well except for Tempest Healer who can do their own Protection, but that’s a specific build I don’t cover here

Engineer: You have to feel for engineers, they are hell of a lot of fun to play, they have just as much tools as Mesmers do. Yet, despite all of that, the ‘Meta’ has phased them out as they are like a Jack of all Trades without providing group buffs. If Engineers could provide a trait with group buff raising Condition Damage by 180, something like that might be enough to push them more in use. Well, at least you can all watch pro engineers solo hard fractal bosses.

Thief: Close to matching DPS numbers with Ele, and a good supplement to a Raid comp needing a bit more CC with passive Basilisk Venom applying to nearby allies. Not a bad pick if you want a melee instead of a ranged DPS for an encounter, plus you can’t argue with that flip!

Revenant: A recent change to how key offensive boons functioned has utterly decimated this profession from even normal Raid comps. It’s not as if it were a bad idea to take them, but in the slot they took would be some key buff missing from the group in exchange for CC you might not need, Fury you already have, and/or DPS you really want. Mind you, this is the ‘Raid’ mentality here, Fractals are perfectly fine for the profession.

I hope this helps.

Thank you SO much! Could you also give me a short preference of desirability!? For instance (just my random ranking, not accurate or anything, just a example)

Support( heal, or buff): #1 druid heal #2 guardian defenses buff #3 warrior might fury
DPS Raw: #1 elementalist #2 thief #3 warrior #4 guaridan #5 ranger
DPS condition: #1 engineer #2 Necro #3 condi ranger
Tank: #1 Mesmer #2 guardian #3 warrior

something like that
i will then make a more summarized version of your entire responses into the post in case any new players have the same question!

So, in a more concise state, the must-haves (Main Raid Support) are:

Warrior, Mesmer, Ranger.

These three will provide all the support and buffs for a comp to perform at the maximum level. Thus, these are most desired. Obviously you will see raids double up on these professions in each group.

For RAW damage, Elementalist > Thief > Guardian.
From these Raw damage dealers, the support-side which includes CC and protective buffs is reversed: Guardian > Thief > Elementalist, so if you need just a bit more CC and you have plenty of damage, flipping out an ele for a thief would be a good choice. The exception to this is if the elementalist is running a healing build which I won’t go into detail for now.

For DPS Condition, Necro >/=* Engineer > Condi Ranger, where if you can’t stack more than one Necromancer for Epidemic ‘bouncing’, running a Condi Engi instead might be a fair plan. But Necromancer has quite a few benefits and utilities that you will benefit from simply running Necros all the time.

Tank: Mesmer >>>> Guardian, your group could have an inversion where the Guardian can tank. But the overall group DPS will suffer a few thousand DPS for it, running a tank build is nuking your overall potential DPS on a profession. Mesmer, with its low DPS potential, suffers the least for going Tank, and there are several guides for Chronotanking that make it very effective for the job and what it can bring to the table.

The only profession that really suffers is Revenant, everything has fallen into place to push Rev out of the raid meta, while Engi is terribly close to joining. But as I have said before, the encounters can be done with a sub-optimal group, Rev can get the job done. What will matter the most in raid is if you have the roles the encounters require filled out, Vale Guardian ain’t going to be killed by a full Power DPS raid.

Sykper: There’s no way thief brings more party support than ele. With ele (talking about full DPS berserker ele btw.) you get potent heals, condi removal, party-wide stunbreak, skill that saves you from going downed, occasional might generation and some other boss-specific utilities (shake block on sloth with offhand focus, icy patch clearing on mattias). ALL thief can provide is CC. And in decent squad where everyone pays attention, you will never lack CC so badly that you would have to absolutely rely on basilisk venom.
Ele is better than thief in pretty much every possible way, except it’s much harder to pull off. IMO the only reason anyone would bring thief into raids is that he is a bad player, still learning the encounters and needs something very forgiving in terms of mistakes. Otherwise, any competent player will benefit the group much more as an elementalist than he would as a thief.

Also, you get the order of condi DPS classes reversed. Best is condi ranger (assuming base ranger max DPS build), next up is condi engi and last is necro. Of course in reality most people will do better dps on necro than engi (especially if you can epi-bounce), because engi has significantly harder rotation. Nevertheless condi ranger is the best DPS and fairly reasonable to play, so it will come out on top most of the time. It might be worth mentioning there are more condi DPS builds (like condi mesmer), but they are usually very situational – e.g. condi mesmer has the most value on mattias, but will perform very badly at encounters where boss is mostly static.

With the rest of the stuff I agree. For support you pretty much always want to have mesmer+ranger+warrior. Depending on the needs of your group, there is a bit of build variance (e.g. minstrel chrono vs. commander chrono, magi druid vs. condi druid), but the classes will always be there in some form or another.
For DPS ranking (be it condi or power), you can look at http://www.qtfy.enjin.com/dps. Of course in an actual raid, the DPS will probably be very different (you have to interrupt your rotation sometimes, also some classes are more complex than others), but this list should at least give you a general idea.
As far as tanking goes, always go with mesmer. Over the year I’ve seen many different classes tank (necro, engi, war, guard, ele), but you always miss out on something. With mesmer you can tank and do your normal job as well, so you basically compress 2 roles into one spot.

Theres quite a few important things and unique items not mentioned or emphasized for each profession you mention.
This may not be clear unless you play said class extensively. Most prof are unique with some very support orientated skills, beware when replacing for sake of just self DPS contributions. Its about how much unique contributions to group for specific encounters.

In order of importance of why each is bought.
Power PS: 1=EA, 2=Banner, 3=Might, 4=CC potential,5=melee cleave dmg
Condi PS: 1=EA, 2=Banner, 3=Might, 4=Range Aoe Burning, 5=some fury, cripple/knob
Druid Heal: 1=gotl, 2=frost/sun spirit, 3=spotter, 4=heals, 5=goe, 6=fury (pet), 7=cc (pet), 8=spirit rez, 9=pull rez, 10=emergency reflect Matt, got escort/vg
Druid Condi: same as above except with less heals, less defensive support and decent range Condi dmg
Chrono: 1=quickness,2=alacrity,3=boon share, 4=invul share, 5=boon strip,portal,focus pull,feedback, 6=strong cc, 7=melee cleave dps
Ele power: 1=range power dps , super on large hitboxes, 2=blink,range burn dmg,group stun break, rebound,3=extra might gen,4=projectile destruction,5=emergency reflect
DH hammer: 1=Prot/aegis spam, 2=quickness/fury support,3=melee dps+symbol dmg,4=high cc potential,5=reflection and pull,6=emergency group blocking,heal and leap
Scepter DH: 1=Stable Range Power DPS, 2=quickness/fury support,3=high cc potential,4=reflection and pull, 5= support burning, 6=emergency group blocking,heal and leap
Viper Necro: 1=Ally Condi Transfer, 2=Foe Condi Spread and transfer, 3=heavy cc/cripple, 4=Range Condi DMG, 5=mass teleport rez, 6=high survival potential, 7=projectile destruction,8= add. might support

Ranger Condi: someone fill this in for me..
Auramancer: someone fill this in for me..
Thief: someone fill this in for me..
Engie:someone fill this in for me..
Rev:someone fill this in for me..
Condi Mes:someone fill this in for me..

Not going to comment on profs I don’t play enough..

if u want to raid and dont mind what class a safe bet is Druid / Chrono…

and while is true that raids / or pugs want Warrior PS or Ele those are easy spots to fill (tons of Ele and War out there)

Tarasicodissa.7084:

Sykper: There’s no way thief brings more party support than ele. With ele (talking about full DPS berserker ele btw.) you get potent heals, condi removal, party-wide stunbreak, skill that saves you from going downed, occasional might generation and some other boss-specific utilities (shake block on sloth with offhand focus, icy patch clearing on mattias). ALL thief can provide is CC. And in decent squad where everyone pays attention, you will never lack CC so badly that you would have to absolutely rely on basilisk venom.
Ele is better than thief in pretty much every possible way, except it’s much harder to pull off. IMO the only reason anyone would bring thief into raids is that he is a bad player, still learning the encounters and needs something very forgiving in terms of mistakes. Otherwise, any competent player will benefit the group much more as an elementalist than he would as a thief.

When you are running the normal DPS ele setup, going for the full damage rotation, elementalist carries with it less utility than thief who always carries Basi Venom in their kit. I specifically didn’t mention any of the alterations to utilities and kits for the DPS Elementalist because that goes into boss specific DPS territory. If we are talking strictly a Tempest running without the supportive utilities and traits, such as on VG, that’s where Thief will have an edge in support in that fight.

Tarasicodissa.7084:

Also, you get the order of condi DPS classes reversed. Best is condi ranger (assuming base ranger max DPS build), next up is condi engi and last is necro. Of course in reality most people will do better dps on necro than engi (especially if you can epi-bounce), because engi has significantly harder rotation. Nevertheless condi ranger is the best DPS and fairly reasonable to play, so it will come out on top most of the time. It might be worth mentioning there are more condi DPS builds (like condi mesmer), but they are usually very situational – e.g. condi mesmer has the most value on mattias, but will perform very badly at encounters where boss is mostly static.

Condi Ranger takes up a healing slot since the druid nerfs. It is why we don’t see 4 Ranger comps in Raids. Necro Epidemic Bouncing on top of their overall utility with CCs and condition pulling/transferring puts them as the condition profession to stack.

And I especially didn’t want to mention Condi Mesmer on Matthias because these guys are coming back into the game and I don’t want them to try bringing Condi Mesmer on Sabetha or some other encounter where their phantasms will have a problem.

Tarasicodissa.7084:

With the rest of the stuff I agree. For support you pretty much always want to have mesmer+ranger+warrior. Depending on the needs of your group, there is a bit of build variance (e.g. minstrel chrono vs. commander chrono, magi druid vs. condi druid), but the classes will always be there in some form or another.

Let’s not dilute them with the variance builds that are meta.

Sykper.6583:

When you are running the normal DPS ele setup, going for the full damage rotation, elementalist carries with it less utility than thief who always carries Basi Venom in their kit. I specifically didn’t mention any of the alterations to utilities and kits for the DPS Elementalist because that goes into boss specific DPS territory. If we are talking strictly a Tempest running without the supportive utilities and traits, such as on VG, that’s where Thief will have an edge in support in that fight.

the other person is talking about
gale song
wash the pain away
rebound
water skills
all of which you can have in a max dps build

thief can skelk venom and pop signet of agility though

reikken.4961:

the other person is talking about
gale song
wash the pain away
rebound
water skills
all of which you can have in a max dps build

thief can skelk venom and pop signet of agility though

Going into Water severely cripples your DPS, and the less ‘Wash the Pain Away’ you need to pop the higher your DPS stays.

Thief literally takes a second to channel Basi venom which gives a sum total of 7.5 seconds of stun to the melee if it hits all allied targets. That’s a bit under the full Warrior Wombo-Combo in CC in one skill.

Your other points are valid, but I believe you might be rating Elementalist just a touch too high on the support, because if they are supporting that much, they aren’t DPSing.

Sykper.6583:

Condi Ranger takes up a healing slot since the druid nerfs. It is why we don’t see 4 Ranger comps in Raids. Necro Epidemic Bouncing on top of their overall utility with CCs and condition pulling/transferring puts them as the condition profession to stack.

Just to make sure, we are talking condi RANGER, and not condi druid..
You will (generally) always run 2 druids in a comp, for GotL etc, but mainly for wing 1, having a condi ranger as the condi dmg is really good (and alot more dmg then necro).

Notice that the weapons/gear/tinkets are the same for condi druid and condi ranger. And its only the traits theat changes. This however change the class from a off-support build with abit of dmg to a super dmg build with low support. A good ex to show what traits mean ^^

Sigfodr.9576:

Sykper.6583:

Condi Ranger takes up a healing slot since the druid nerfs. It is why we don’t see 4 Ranger comps in Raids. Necro Epidemic Bouncing on top of their overall utility with CCs and condition pulling/transferring puts them as the condition profession to stack.

Just to make sure, we are talking condi RANGER, and not condi druid..
You will (generally) always run 2 druids in a comp, for GotL etc, but mainly for wing 1, having a condi ranger as the condi dmg is really good (and alot more dmg then necro).

Notice that the weapons/gear/tinkets are the same for condi druid and condi ranger. And its only the traits theat changes. This however change the class from a off-support build with abit of dmg to a super dmg build with low support. A good ex to show what traits mean ^^

Agreed. Base condi ranger has great dmg. Higher than engi even and much easier to play. Not sure why it would have to take up a druid slot. Support isn’t even that bad on it. Just taking a wyvern/black moa makes it very good CC and in a condi party it can take sun spirit without much personal dmg loss freeing up a slot on the druid for another glyph which means more gotl uptime.

cranos.5913:

Sigfodr.9576:

Sykper.6583:

Condi Ranger takes up a healing slot since the druid nerfs. It is why we don’t see 4 Ranger comps in Raids. Necro Epidemic Bouncing on top of their overall utility with CCs and condition pulling/transferring puts them as the condition profession to stack.

Just to make sure, we are talking condi RANGER, and not condi druid..
You will (generally) always run 2 druids in a comp, for GotL etc, but mainly for wing 1, having a condi ranger as the condi dmg is really good (and alot more dmg then necro).

Notice that the weapons/gear/tinkets are the same for condi druid and condi ranger. And its only the traits theat changes. This however change the class from a off-support build with abit of dmg to a super dmg build with low support. A good ex to show what traits mean ^^

Agreed. Base condi ranger has great dmg. Higher than engi even and much easier to play. Not sure why it would have to take up a druid slot. Support isn’t even that bad on it. Just taking a wyvern/black moa makes it very good CC and in a condi party it can take sun spirit without much personal dmg loss freeing up a slot on the druid for another glyph which means more gotl uptime.

Fair enough, sorry I became a bit confused on the discussion.

Still, I don’t want them to end up making some weird funky raid comp where they aren’t covering the bases, so I wanted to explain the most ‘routine’ group comps they will see.

Sykper.6583:

cranos.5913:

Sigfodr.9576:

Sykper.6583:

Condi Ranger takes up a healing slot since the druid nerfs. It is why we don’t see 4 Ranger comps in Raids. Necro Epidemic Bouncing on top of their overall utility with CCs and condition pulling/transferring puts them as the condition profession to stack.

Just to make sure, we are talking condi RANGER, and not condi druid..
You will (generally) always run 2 druids in a comp, for GotL etc, but mainly for wing 1, having a condi ranger as the condi dmg is really good (and alot more dmg then necro).

Notice that the weapons/gear/tinkets are the same for condi druid and condi ranger. And its only the traits theat changes. This however change the class from a off-support build with abit of dmg to a super dmg build with low support. A good ex to show what traits mean ^^

Agreed. Base condi ranger has great dmg. Higher than engi even and much easier to play. Not sure why it would have to take up a druid slot. Support isn’t even that bad on it. Just taking a wyvern/black moa makes it very good CC and in a condi party it can take sun spirit without much personal dmg loss freeing up a slot on the druid for another glyph which means more gotl uptime.

Fair enough, sorry I became a bit confused on the discussion.

Still, I don’t want them to end up making some weird funky raid comp where they aren’t covering the bases, so I wanted to explain the most ‘routine’ group comps they will see.

Unless they have a great condi engi they’re prob best off taking condi ranger for VG tho. Necro was never amazing there and now even more so.

Sykper.6583:

So, in a more concise state, the must-haves (Main Raid Support) are:

Warrior, Mesmer, Ranger.

These three will provide all the support and buffs for a comp to perform at the maximum level. Thus, these are most desired. Obviously you will see raids double up on these professions in each group.

This is not true at all, ur not rly trying to be objective here. True comp dosnt matter for VG.. in fact I just got kill today and comp was pretty close to meta but divergent in ways, 2 druid 2 necro 2 war 2 ele 1 chrono 1 rev (guard or skmethin, swapped out for cc cos wars were terrible). Ye I was single chrono too and didn’t evn come close to enrage.. so point is that comp was extremely balanced, even wth missing 1 chrono no problem.

In realistic case, all three roles (chrono/druid/war) are overshadowed by other role or class, most notably ele. All the time for boss like kc, I see grp stacking 4 ele. How does that compare with stacking 2 ranger? Exactly. Ele is op and best at its role, grps capitalize on this and stack as many of thm as they can. For grps stacking necros, they usually prefer 2 necro to just a sole one.

Thus your point on ‘desirability’ is flawed. Chronotanks mite be more in demand cos their role is harder to play than any other role in whole grp, doesn’t mean it’s desirable to stack more then one. If u taking about general roles all classes can fill, then yes support takes up more spots than dps atm. But specific to class, yes ele has the same guaranteed 2+ spots as other support classes. Which is why, post for ele – get one in liek a sec.

I’ve been in groups using 2 Revs and 2 Chronos, we did Wing 1 (except Gorseval) and Wing 2 without much issues, people had a lot more sustain with Glint/Jallys and Glint/Mallyx in Wing 2.

nagr.1593:

Sykper.6583:

So, in a more concise state, the must-haves (Main Raid Support) are:

Warrior, Mesmer, Ranger.

These three will provide all the support and buffs for a comp to perform at the maximum level. Thus, these are most desired. Obviously you will see raids double up on these professions in each group.

This is not true at all, ur not rly trying to be objective here. True comp dosnt matter for VG.. in fact I just got kill today and comp was pretty close to meta but divergent in ways, 2 druid 2 necro 2 war 2 ele 1 chrono 1 rev (guard or skmethin, swapped out for cc cos wars were terrible). Ye I was single chrono too and didn’t evn come close to enrage.. so point is that comp was extremely balanced, even wth missing 1 chrono no problem.

In realistic case, all three roles (chrono/druid/war) are overshadowed by other role or class, most notably ele. All the time for boss like kc, I see grp stacking 4 ele. How does that compare with stacking 2 ranger? Exactly. Ele is op and best at its role, grps capitalize on this and stack as many of thm as they can. For grps stacking necros, they usually prefer 2 necro to just a sole one.

Thus your point on ‘desirability’ is flawed. Chronotanks mite be more in demand cos their role is harder to play than any other role in whole grp, doesn’t mean it’s desirable to stack more then one. If u taking about general roles all classes can fill, then yes support takes up more spots than dps atm. But specific to class, yes ele has the same guaranteed 2+ spots as other support classes. Which is why, post for ele – get one in liek a sec.

Maybe you should read the OP. He’s asking about meta, not “what works”.

Sykper.6583:

reikken.4961:

the other person is talking about
gale song
wash the pain away
rebound
water skills
all of which you can have in a max dps build

thief can skelk venom and pop signet of agility though

Going into Water severely cripples your DPS, and the less ‘Wash the Pain Away’ you need to pop the higher your DPS stays.

Thief literally takes a second to channel Basi venom which gives a sum total of 7.5 seconds of stun to the melee if it hits all allied targets. That’s a bit under the full Warrior Wombo-Combo in CC in one skill.

Your other points are valid, but I believe you might be rating Elementalist just a touch too high on the support, because if they are supporting that much, they aren’t DPSing.

depends on when you swap into water
if you’re staff and water swap while meteor shower has most of its cooldown and right after dropping a lava font, you lose very little dps
if you’re dagger and swap shortly after air overload, you also lose very little dps

there are also times when you would rather momentarily trade all of your dps for some utility.

but again I’m not arguing that ele has better utility, since thief has some underused utility as well

cranos.5913:

Maybe you should read the OP. He’s asking about meta, not “what works”.

I was talking abt meta too. Ele is part of meta, just like ps/chrono/druid.. even more so than other dps classes. Not sure if necro is part of condi meta but I will still more often then not see 2 necro in grp, for encounters like sloth.

i do not necessarily mean damage tier list, but for example, if class 1 and class 2 both are both damage roles or identical per say, but, class 1 is simply better than class 2, then obviously it would be at a higher tier.

Did I truly miss the mark like u claim I did? Nope, I was just addressing this point here. Maybe you should read the OP again, as it’s doubtful u read mine either (otherwise why post). The rest of his questions were alrdy answered, there’s no need for me to add anything there.

Let’s assume class 1 is Ele and class 2 is another less preferred dps like Thief, they are both dps role but class 1 here is the clear winner. Thief still does not benefit from quickness and not much from alacrity either, therefore its dps will always be sub-par to class 1. Thus staff Ele is the undisputed king of the damage role, realistically 38k and non-realistically ~49k. It has the highest spike in dps increase from NO alacrity to alacrity, despite realistic/non-realistic buffs out of all classes.

So Ele is highest tier in dps atm, not much reason to run thief either as cc is mostly otherwise covered. Take example of power PS warrior for comparison, since other support class like druid even worse to compare with. The benefit from alacrity there seem almost negligible, dps hovers around 20k. I can confirm bc I test this myself on train golem, with full ascended and infusion and str runes. That’s prty stable dps, whereas Ele staff meta is almost a 100% increase in dps. That is just unreal.

This why there a guaranteed 2+ spots for Ele for its role, even more then any other class atm. So here the point, how to define demand? Eles are more asked for in any grp and their spot quickly filled, whereas role like chronotank asked less but their spot take a much longer time to fill (since harder). There no right answer I guess, but my opinion that Ele more desirable for majority of grps.

Again I am talk abt meta, most anything works at VG but otherwise there are set roles. Classes other then support can very often fill same or more amt of spots when comparing on classes not role. So there not rly a ‘trinity’ as he say.. rather it be some sort of quadrilateral if u wanna say so

nagr.1593:

cranos.5913:

Maybe you should read the OP. He’s asking about meta, not “what works”.

I was talking abt meta too. Ele is part of meta, just like ps/chrono/druid.. even more so than other dps classes. Not sure if necro is part of condi meta but I will still more often then not see 2 necro in grp, for encounters like sloth.

i do not necessarily mean damage tier list, but for example, if class 1 and class 2 both are both damage roles or identical per say, but, class 1 is simply better than class 2, then obviously it would be at a higher tier.

Did I truly miss the mark like u claim I did? Nope, I was just addressing this point here. Maybe you should read the OP again, as it’s doubtful u read mine either (otherwise why post). The rest of his questions were alrdy answered, there’s no need for me to add anything there.

Let’s assume class 1 is Ele and class 2 is another less preferred dps like Thief, they are both dps role but class 1 here is the clear winner. Thief still does not benefit from quickness and not much from alacrity either, therefore its dps will always be sub-par to class 1. Thus staff Ele is the undisputed king of the damage role, realistically 38k and non-realistically ~49k. It has the highest spike in dps increase from NO alacrity to alacrity, despite realistic/non-realistic buffs out of all classes.

So Ele is highest tier in dps atm, not much reason to run thief either as cc is mostly otherwise covered. Take example of power PS warrior for comparison, since other support class like druid even worse to compare with. The benefit from alacrity there seem almost negligible, dps hovers around 20k. I can confirm bc I test this myself on train golem, with full ascended and infusion and str runes. That’s prty stable dps, whereas Ele staff meta is almost a 100% increase in dps. That is just unreal.

This why there a guaranteed 2+ spots for Ele for its role, even more then any other class atm. So here the point, how to define demand? Eles are more asked for in any grp and their spot quickly filled, whereas role like chronotank asked less but their spot take a much longer time to fill (since harder). There no right answer I guess, but my opinion that Ele more desirable for majority of grps.

Again I am talk abt meta, most anything works at VG but otherwise there are set roles. Classes other then support can very often fill same or more amt of spots when comparing on classes not role. So there not rly a ‘trinity’ as he say.. rather it be some sort of quadrilateral if u wanna say so

Care to elaborate how does thief not benefit from quickness?

You are writing a lot of numbers (38k, 49k etc), but you fail to understand that these numbers do not exist without certain classes in the party!
One might think that dropping a 20k~ DPS class (such as Druid) for a 49k~ DPS class (such as Tempest) would result in a DPS increase, but without the basic buffs that druid gives, you can throw all the numbers/ benchmarks you know to the garbage.

I had the two mixed up, I meant thief does not benefit from alacrity and not as much from quickness, since it mostly just their aa that get improved

The OP was asking specifically for raid situation, so realistic buffs (if not all) are guaranteed. It does not matter whether ur a class that can provide these buffs are not, point is everyone in grp benefits from these buffs. So even in raids there’s an ~8k gap between Ele and thief (realistically), and likewise 10k gap between Thief and ps warrior as mentioned. Even if u average out 15k difference, that’s a huge gap between support and dps. Almost enough for one other class itself

No one said anything abt dropping druid for temp. My point that 2 druid in any comp is usually fixed, just like 2+ Ele is usually fixed. Those are mostly set in stone u can’t just reduce either of them without cause or reason

Think of it like training golem. It does not matter what limitations of each individual class since u can select for realistic buffs, and pretend that u have access to those buffs. Just like doing a fair comparison of warrior to ele – no one use any buffs the other cant match. So no EA, banners, dps signets, or perma fury since war is incapable of it, and swap str runes for scholars. Ele will still win by a wide margin with no buffs at all, cos their dps is simply on much higher lvl to begin with.

So obviously solo, u can’t do realistic dps comparison. When u add grp buffs then u can compare evenly with all class on same ground. That’s what I been doing

nagr.1593:

Did I truly miss the mark like u claim I did?

Yes. You claim the person you quoted wasn’t objective when he said raid squads double up on the support. In fact that’s the fastest way to go about it. Then you start making even less sense about ele “overshadowing” those classes which is just plain misinformation.

@Nagr, you strictly stated in your first response that all three of the roles Chrono/Druid/PS War are overshadowed, especially by ele.

The current safe raid meta for all the bosses is to double up on these professions, and fill out the rest with what you need for the encounter. This isn’t something that should be discussed based on what the OP asked for.

The OP legitimately wanted to know what is working now, and why. I gave him the most accurate statements, albeit I was careless about Condi Ranger, but ultimately the big sticking point is that the Warrior/Mesmer/Ranger combo in any group is a sure-fire way to cover all your support base needs. There’s no better support combination.