Guild Wars 2

from the IGN piece on masteries.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2015/02/03/how-guild-wars-2s-mastery-system-could-change-mmos-forever

First reference I"ve seen to dungeon content in reference to HoT

It does look cool but Idk, Ill wait till it comes out and I give it ago.

Sarahfull.4930:

It does look cool but Idk, Ill wait till it comes out and I give it ago.

It just heavily, HEAVILY implies new fractal content. In the release there was no comment at all about dungeon stuff

hmm mastery system sounds very much like an evolution of the SAB upgrades (candle, bombs, whip etc)

hope it delivers!

It’s a bit too vague to draw any conclusions yet. For all we know, the Masteries might be something like “deal extra damage to Krait.” Yes, it works for the Krait in the Underwater Fractal, but it does the same for Krait everywhere.

Still, it is promising news.

Windsagio.1340:

Sarahfull.4930:

It does look cool but Idk, Ill wait till it comes out and I give it ago.

It just heavily, HEAVILY implies new fractal content. In the release there was no comment at all about dungeon stuff

I feel more like your statement you pulled from anet seems more like they forgot a comma after " fractals " tbh

either way, it’d be a bonus :p

Windsagio.1340:

either way, it’d be a bonus :p

I don’t really see power creep as a bonus /shrug.

Jerus.4350:

Windsagio.1340:

either way, it’d be a bonus :p

I don’t really see power creep as a bonus /shrug.

That’s because you’re a hopeless pessimist. :p

The point is that despite all the complaints, there’s a sign that they are likely adding fractal and/or dungeon content to the expansion, and it’s the first implication we’ve heard of it.

For all the unhappiness about the lack of new content, people are so cynical when there’s a good sign :p

Windsagio.1340:

Jerus.4350:

Windsagio.1340:

either way, it’d be a bonus :p

I don’t really see power creep as a bonus /shrug.

That’s because you’re a hopeless pessimist. :p

The point is that despite all the complaints, there’s a sign that they are likely adding fractal and/or dungeon content to the expansion, and it’s the first implication we’ve heard of it.

For all the unhappiness about the lack of new content, people are so cynical when there’s a good sign :p

No… no it’s not (though I’m not going to disagree )

There’s a very real reason Power Creep is an issue. It makes things easier. Without new challenges in content increasing play power slowly dwindles down the few challenges there are.

That’s why other games release expansions for content with their increases in stats and power. They go hand in hand so you gain power and get new content that will keep the challenge available.

If they’re adding fractal content… AWESOME! if it’s simply power creep… ugh.

The masteries would be like “double the chance to get weapon skin drop”. But close to zero is still close to zero.

#Three2Go

I don’t see why they wouldn’t open up higher fotm levels unless they wanted to just abandon the idea of fractals, and I know for a fact that they don’t. It makes sense, all you have to do is come up with 30 new instabilities making sure none of them create game breaking / progress breaking bugs. this wouldn’t take a ton of resources/development time. Oh and you just have to make 3 new loot tables for the new tiers. Wouldn’t take long at all.

Wouldn’t opening up new fractal levels keep dividing up the community? I thought that was one of the reasons they removed SAB, because they don’t want to divide the playerbase. So adding more fractal levels would do that / create more QQ i can’t play how i want / bring back trinity threads?

I doubt that would have an effect of dividing the community at all. It would be the same as now.

If they won’t want to separate anyone why they have 3 game modes and a bunch of zones in PvE in the first place with overflow/megaserver instances as well … ? See where i’m going?
PHIW’s still manage to climb up to lvl50 (horrible personal experiences) so i don’t see a problem here.

“You can now fly down to the Imbued Shaman with your kite instead of running”

Ride of The Valkyries playing while you swoop in. I’d pay for that.

utred.6085:

Ride of The Valkyries playing while you swoop in. I’d pay for that.

THen I get “kill the wabbit, kill the wabbit..” stuck in my head https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHivHuPFBqA

Jerus.4350:

Windsagio.1340:

Jerus.4350:

Windsagio.1340:

either way, it’d be a bonus :p

I don’t really see power creep as a bonus /shrug.

That’s because you’re a hopeless pessimist. :p

The point is that despite all the complaints, there’s a sign that they are likely adding fractal and/or dungeon content to the expansion, and it’s the first implication we’ve heard of it.

For all the unhappiness about the lack of new content, people are so cynical when there’s a good sign :p

No… no it’s not (though I’m not going to disagree )

There’s a very real reason Power Creep is an issue. It makes things easier. Without new challenges in content increasing play power slowly dwindles down the few challenges there are.

That’s why other games release expansions for content with their increases in stats and power. They go hand in hand so you gain power and get new content that will keep the challenge available.

If they’re adding fractal content… AWESOME! if it’s simply power creep… ugh.

That’s fair! My personal suspicion is that it means they’re going to move more story-based encounters into fractals along with at least 1 new meguuma based one.

I’d share your concerns about gating encounter success based on having the right mastery. I’ts basically fine in world, but would be so annoying in something like a fractal context.

Snowball.3497:

“You can now fly down to the Imbued Shaman with your kite instead of running”

Well, ya know, I prefer the jump on a tiny ledge and bunny hop/run to shaman through lava. Also I’m going to laugh if the mastery system is like the WvW bonuses but require skill points instead of rank points. Ah, wouldn’t that be just the level of innovation we’ve come to expect from MMOs.

Master Fractals: Uncover new depths in the Fractals of the Mists to gain powerful new abilities to overcome difficult fractal challenges, garner greater rewards, and unlock more powerful infusions.

So, you can effect your reward track, get special stat boosts for your infusions and, make things easier.

“Uncover new depths” could be shiny flavor text or could mean that they’re finally adding levels.

Windsagio.1340:

Master Fractals: Uncover new depths in the Fractals of the Mists to gain powerful new abilities to overcome difficult fractal challenges, garner greater rewards, and unlock more powerful infusions.

So, you can effect your reward track, get special stat boosts for your infusions and, make things easier.

“Uncover new depths” could be shiny flavor text or could mean that they’re finally adding levels.

Little correction “adding level” isn’t really a new thing, it’s simply getting back what was once there.

Depends on if it’s new PR levels or new fractal instances (at this point, since they keep bringing it up, I suspect both).

The overall feeling I get from HoT reveals is that their instanced content is going to be focused on fractals over dungeons.

I’m wondering if the neo-dailies pushing people into them is actually working?

I really don’t think it will be power creep Jerus (Or at least I really hope it won’t lol).

Specific mastery that we know of are learning a new languages, gliding, jumping from mushroom, gaining access to new reward, etc.

Total speculation on my part but here some possibilities of Fractal Masteries

- Unlocking new recipe to upgrade infusion. Right now, crafting +5 is easy, crafting +8 is hard, crafting +10 is stupid. Maybe a new recipe will make crafting +10 and +15 more accessible so we can do higher level of fractal.
- Unlocking new skills that allow you to go through some higher level instability.
- Unlocking new collections and rewards.

Thaddeus.4891:

I really don’t think it will be power creep Jerus (Or at least I really hope it won’t lol).

Specific mastery that we know of are learning a new languages, gliding, jumping from mushroom, gaining access to new reward, etc.

Total speculation on my part but here some possibilities of Fractal Masteries

- Unlocking new recipe to upgrade infusion. Right now, crafting +5 is easy, crafting +8 is hard, crafting +10 is stupid. Maybe a new recipe will make crafting +10 and +15 more accessible so we can do higher level of fractal.
- Unlocking new skills that allow you to go through some higher level instability.
- Unlocking new collections and rewards.

Reread their list.

-Master Lore: Attunement with new ally races can be trained to understand their language, unlocking secret locations and access to battle techniques that can weaken your shared enemies.

Does that not sound like you’ll get some debuff to them, essentially giving the player more power… aka power creep.

-Master Combat: The Heart of Maguuma will be home to some of the most challenging combat in Guild Wars 2, and Masteries will give you the tools you need to excel in these fights. Hunt new enemies, master abilities to defeat champions, and become more deadly against the new creatures waiting in the jungle.

This set of systems is vertical progression from what I’m reading today. Whether that will be true in fractals… we’ll see.

Jerus.4350:

tools you need to excel in these fights. Hunt new enemies, master abilities to defeat champions, and become more deadly against the new creatures waiting in the jungle.

This set of systems is vertical progression from what I’m reading today. Whether that will be true in fractals… we’ll see.

Not necessarily. All of those can be horizontal.

- Hunt new enemies : Maybe something to find special type of enemies that you new. Maybe you need to kill different type of enemies for a collection and you have a tool that allow you to find one of those specific enemies to make your life easier.
- Master abilities to defeat champion : Maybe a buff or even better a skill that allow you to rip off the armor of a new boss. Once the armor is removed everybody can kill the boss. Or maybe a mastery that protect ppl around you against a special attack of the boss so we need to work together and make sure we have ppl with certain mastery against specific bosses.
- become more deadly against the new creature in the jungle : that one seem indeed more like vertical progression. But it doesn’t mean that it can’t be awesome. Imagine that there is 4 different type of enemies, so you want to regroup everybody with the right mastery against the right type of mobs. Without the mastery we could only have time to kill 1 boss, as ppl get more mastery we can kill more bosses and get more reward. Think of it like husk for the Triple Wurm. We need a condi team to fight them otherwise we may not always succeed. It could be something similar. Or it could be boring small power creed. Just hope not or at least, that it will be as small as possible (think like WvW abilities)

So no more skill based success but instead based upon your progression level… ok…

Sorry for the sarcastic tone, but really I’m frustrated reading all this stuff. Give us kittening content. Make us want to get better at the game. Farming and grinding shouldn’t unlock power. That’s vertical progression by it’s definition, that’s not what I thought this game was about and not the game I fell in love with.

They’re going for a metroidvania feel for the progression.

You can certainlly define it as vertical, in the sense that you need specific unlocks to access specific content, but it’s not a general gear lock.

I wouldn’t call ‘you now have Ice Beam enabled’ vertical progression in metroid, even though you need it for some fights.

Of course there’s a question of whether they can make that progression concept stick, it’s a pretty big jump for MMO’s

Also, if there’s a mastery for a ring collection, that’s almost enough ><

I’m willing to bet the combat masteries will have the same effect as was adding

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Antitoxin_Spray

/shrug, we’ll see how it turns out.

I just want some kittening content.

Of course they go into slippery terrain Jerus. That mastery thing could be a huge flop. What if you can hardly fight mobs in some of the new maps and mastery give you more resistance and more dmg against them. That’s would be pure vertical grind progression.

But if they go like Windsagio said, more toward a metroid kind of progression or even like Zela, then it could be a lot of fun. Special tools that allow you to gain access to new part of the region or that can be used with some special mechanic to defeat bosses.

Thaddeus.4891:

Of course they go into slippery terrain Jerus. That mastery thing could be a huge flop. What if you can hardly fight mobs in some of the new maps and mastery give you more resistance and more dmg against them. That’s would be pure vertical grind progression.

But if they go like Windsagio said, more toward a metroid kind of progression or even like Zela, then it could be a lot of fun. Special tools that allow you to gain access to new part of the region or that can be used with some special mechanic to defeat bosses.

Thing is it’s still a time sink where you’re grinding trying to unlock something so you can go see more content. Not that time sinks are necessarily bad, but it’s just… yeah… we’ll see how it goes…

Jerus.4350:

Thing is it’s still a time sink where you’re grinding trying to unlock something so you can go see more content. Not that time sinks are necessarily bad, but it’s just… yeah… we’ll see how it goes…

It’s always a struggle. We want to experience new content as fast as possible because its new and exciting, but at the same time we don’t want mastery to be ridiculously easy to get so that we don’t burn through them quickly. Whatever their direction there will be ppl unhappy and other happy.

The mastery syncs add an interesting aspect to the racing aspect too, although somewhat artificial.

Sounds like a power creep. That’s not really skill based gaming.

Doing something challenging to get something which allows you to do something else challenging is pretty much same as doing something challenging and then doing something else challenging. Point is, it doesn’t really add anything meaningful.

By the broad definittion you guys are using any progression or limitation would be a power creep.

If it works, it will be a very low-impact way to gate content and to let people decide what kind of direction they want to take with their unlocks. It’s a customization track.

But if the first challenge isn’t made any easier by the unlock, it’s not really power creep. It’s just pacing out the content.

Devil’s in the details, which are going to be lacking for some time.

Sounds like attunement for raids. Get this mastery + gliding to defeat this boss that can only be defeated with those 2 masteries so you can progress to the next area.

Windsagio.1340:

By the broad definittion you guys are using any progression or limitation would be a power creep.

If it works, it will be a very low-impact way to gate content and to let people decide what kind of direction they want to take with their unlocks. It’s a customization track.

I’m curious how you define “very low-impact”

Really sounds like they’re either going to be vertical progression or a gating device. In either case can’t say I’m excited at all about them. My skeptical pessimistic self even wonders if their need to make this means the amount of actual content is quite slim, if they’re spending all those resources to slow us down.

Jerus.4350:

Windsagio.1340:

By the broad definittion you guys are using any progression or limitation would be a power creep.

If it works, it will be a very low-impact way to gate content and to let people decide what kind of direction they want to take with their unlocks. It’s a customization track.

I’m curious how you define “very low-impact”

Really sounds like they’re either going to be vertical progression or a gating device. In either case can’t say I’m excited at all about them. My skeptical pessimistic self even wonders if their need to make this means the amount of actual content is quite slim, if they’re spending all those resources to slow us down.

There’s no question that it’s a gating device. It’s also pretty standard practice to phase player access to content, and not just to stretch the amount of content.

There’s a lot of speculation in this talk of course, and a lot of ‘if they implement it well’, but the basic idea holds.

1) It’s low impact because it gates content in the order the player chooses. The player decides what’s most important to them, and can access that quickly.
2) It’s important to force staged access to content because otherwise players will advertently or inadvertently skip content.
3) It’s also important because it’s a guide through the meaning and applications of the content. There’s a very real teaching advantage.
4) Regardless of how large or small the amount of content turns out to be, some obsessive people will burn through it too fast and become bored if it’s not gated in some way. This is true in every game without regard to the size of the expansions.

Gear and level are full vertical progressions. Like I said in the other forum, you can’t play in orr at level 50, and you can’t do a level 34 fractal with 0 AR. You are absolutely excluded from that content (although AR gear is a soft gate, you can access all the maps in the fractal regardless of gear, just not the higher levels and rewards).

This is at its most vertical a series of short branched progressions. It’s not

a→b→c→d→e

it’s
b c d
\ | / \
e < a > f > g

you can choose b,c,d,e, or f immediately from your starting point depending on if you’re interested in crafting a legendary first or getting to that boss first. There might (and likely will) be a g also, which is predicated on multiple branches.

With no progression there’s no progression. This is a LOT more free and a LOT lekittenous than a tradtional 1-way vertical progression.

You have a point, I guess I take for granted that you should be level 80 before trying to do all the content… i mean… duh? right?

Fractals certainly have a gating element.

And yes, the whole thing will depend on how they handle the details. But the way it’s shaping up isn’t hyping me at all, quite the opposite actually.

1 Mastery Point: Follows Advice – Details are obscured by the Mists
2 Mastery Points: Agony Channeler – Details are obscured by the Mists
3 Mastery Points: Mistlock Singularities – Details are obscured by the Mists
5 Mastery Points: Recursive Resourcing – Details are obscured by the Mists
8 Mastery Points: Essential Singularities – Details are obscured by the Mists
10 Mastery Points: Hyperactive Singularities – Details are obscured by the Mists

I’m thinking agony channeler will either allow us to take less damage from agony at a given AR or will allow us to use boss agony to damage foes around us.

Recursive resourcing might finally allow us to do something with the resources we’ve gathered in droves – ie excess skins or rings.

Hyperactive singularities could be a hard mode?

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

1 Mastery Point: Follows Advice – Details are obscured by the Mists
2 Mastery Points: Agony Channeler – Details are obscured by the Mists
3 Mastery Points: Mistlock Singularities – Details are obscured by the Mists
5 Mastery Points: Recursive Resourcing – Details are obscured by the Mists
8 Mastery Points: Essential Singularities – Details are obscured by the Mists
10 Mastery Points: Hyperactive Singularities – Details are obscured by the Mists

I’m thinking agony channeler will either allow us to take less damage from agony at a given AR or will allow us to use boss agony to damage foes around us.

Recursive resourcing might finally allow us to do something with the resources we’ve gathered in droves – ie excess skins or rings.

Hyperactive singularities could be a hard mode?

I was thinking channeler might be a “mentor” system where we could “channel” our AR to other players who may lack it. Using it as an offensive means sounds cool though.

My main fear in all this is power creep though.

Jerus.4350:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

1 Mastery Point: Follows Advice – Details are obscured by the Mists
2 Mastery Points: Agony Channeler – Details are obscured by the Mists
3 Mastery Points: Mistlock Singularities – Details are obscured by the Mists
5 Mastery Points: Recursive Resourcing – Details are obscured by the Mists
8 Mastery Points: Essential Singularities – Details are obscured by the Mists
10 Mastery Points: Hyperactive Singularities – Details are obscured by the Mists

I’m thinking agony channeler will either allow us to take less damage from agony at a given AR or will allow us to use boss agony to damage foes around us.

Recursive resourcing might finally allow us to do something with the resources we’ve gathered in droves – ie excess skins or rings.

Hyperactive singularities could be a hard mode?

I was thinking channeler might be a “mentor” system where we could “channel” our AR to other players who may lack it. Using it as an offensive means sounds cool though.

My main fear in all this is power creep though.

Reallllllllyyyy hoping hyperactive singularities will be hard mode with better rewards.

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Jerus.4350:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

1 Mastery Point: Follows Advice – Details are obscured by the Mists
2 Mastery Points: Agony Channeler – Details are obscured by the Mists
3 Mastery Points: Mistlock Singularities – Details are obscured by the Mists
5 Mastery Points: Recursive Resourcing – Details are obscured by the Mists
8 Mastery Points: Essential Singularities – Details are obscured by the Mists
10 Mastery Points: Hyperactive Singularities – Details are obscured by the Mists

I’m thinking agony channeler will either allow us to take less damage from agony at a given AR or will allow us to use boss agony to damage foes around us.

Recursive resourcing might finally allow us to do something with the resources we’ve gathered in droves – ie excess skins or rings.

Hyperactive singularities could be a hard mode?

I was thinking channeler might be a “mentor” system where we could “channel” our AR to other players who may lack it. Using it as an offensive means sounds cool though.

My main fear in all this is power creep though.

Reallllllllyyyy hoping hyperactive singularities will be hard mode with better rewards.

sure does sound like a hard mode

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Jerus.4350:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

1 Mastery Point: Follows Advice – Details are obscured by the Mists
2 Mastery Points: Agony Channeler – Details are obscured by the Mists
3 Mastery Points: Mistlock Singularities – Details are obscured by the Mists
5 Mastery Points: Recursive Resourcing – Details are obscured by the Mists
8 Mastery Points: Essential Singularities – Details are obscured by the Mists
10 Mastery Points: Hyperactive Singularities – Details are obscured by the Mists

I’m thinking agony channeler will either allow us to take less damage from agony at a given AR or will allow us to use boss agony to damage foes around us.

Recursive resourcing might finally allow us to do something with the resources we’ve gathered in droves – ie excess skins or rings.

Hyperactive singularities could be a hard mode?

I was thinking channeler might be a “mentor” system where we could “channel” our AR to other players who may lack it. Using it as an offensive means sounds cool though.

My main fear in all this is power creep though.

Reallllllllyyyy hoping hyperactive singularities will be hard mode with better rewards.

Reasonable guess, and I hope it’s true. Maybe like higher speed of attacks on bosses? Would surely be an easy but more challenging objective.

Maybe the new masteries will allow players to mitigate some effects of mistlock instabilities.

One example could be, when players are affected by agony every few seconds in fractal 40 and 50, their healing isn’t halved.

#wishthishappens. #Wtbhealerlove.

I’d be down with a HM Fractals.

I still have a good chuckle at “Using an elite skill causes death”

Jerus.4350:

Thaddeus.4891:

I really don’t think it will be power creep Jerus (Or at least I really hope it won’t lol).

Specific mastery that we know of are learning a new languages, gliding, jumping from mushroom, gaining access to new reward, etc.

Total speculation on my part but here some possibilities of Fractal Masteries

- Unlocking new recipe to upgrade infusion. Right now, crafting +5 is easy, crafting +8 is hard, crafting +10 is stupid. Maybe a new recipe will make crafting +10 and +15 more accessible so we can do higher level of fractal.
- Unlocking new skills that allow you to go through some higher level instability.
- Unlocking new collections and rewards.

Reread their list.

-Master Lore: Attunement with new ally races can be trained to understand their language, unlocking secret locations and access to battle techniques that can weaken your shared enemies.

Does that not sound like you’ll get some debuff to them, essentially giving the player more power… aka power creep.

-Master Combat: The Heart of Maguuma will be home to some of the most challenging combat in Guild Wars 2, and Masteries will give you the tools you need to excel in these fights. Hunt new enemies, master abilities to defeat champions, and become more deadly against the new creatures waiting in the jungle.

This set of systems is vertical progression from what I’m reading today. Whether that will be true in fractals… we’ll see.

it will be vertical progression. They will have skills/traits/something that you need to have or you cannot beat certain enemies. They have said this a lot. Mastery bars are also tied to expereince. It doesnt seem that the combat related ones will be as integrated as zelda or metroid, though they keep bringing those up. I doubt you ll see too many things like bombs in zelda, it will probably be like agony or lightbringer points or something.