Raids prepare you for raids. Fractals are a 5 man content, and if you think they’ll make you better at raids, you’re wasting your time. And fractal devs should probably concentrate in making 5-man content unique.
If anything Nightmare CM is the best example of the difference in high level gameplay between 5 man and 10 man content.
Yes, they can make you better at dodging, dps management, and etc., but so does the rest of the content in the game.
Raids prepare you for raids. Fractals are a 5 man content, and if you think they’ll make you better at raids, you’re wasting your time. And fractal devs should probably concentrate in making 5-man content unique.
If anything Nightmare CM is the best example of the difference in high level gameplay between 5 man and 10 man content.
Yes, they can make you better at dodging, dps management, and etc., but so does the rest of the content in the game.
The rest of the game doesn’t do much for teaching anything, actually, because it can all by bypassed by overhealing, hit and running, etc. It can also be argued that the kind of individual skills you get like managing your dodge bar, keep up rotations, etc. are actually more important than anything else during raids.
Matthias for example is not considered one of the hardest bosses in the game because he takes a lot of teamwork (even if he does, mostly for breakbars) but because any one player can make or break the whole thing. You died with a poison well? gg. You dropped a well of the profane on the middle of the temple right before water phase? gg. You messed up reflect twice during Abomination phase and a ghost just ran through you? gg. What you do as a player contributes to failure or sucess more than what the rest of the team is doing, because most mechanics are targetted at one player at a time. And this is also true of fractals, therefore they are much more alike than it first appears. What you claim as the difference between challenging 5 man content and 10 man content is merely a number difference: it is more likely to have more players failing their individual mechanics during raids, simply because there are more players there to fail!
The rest of the game doesn’t do much for teaching anything, actually, because it can all by bypassed by overhealing, hit and running, etc. It can also be argued that the kind of individual skills you get like managing your dodge bar, keep up rotations, etc. are actually more important than anything else during raids.
Matthias for example is not considered one of the hardest bosses in the game because he takes a lot of teamwork (even if he does, mostly for breakbars) but because any one player can make or break the whole thing. You died with a poison well? gg. You dropped a well of the profane on the middle of the temple right before water phase? gg. You messed up reflect twice during Abomination phase and a ghost just ran through you? gg. What you do as a player contributes to failure or sucess more than what the rest of the team is doing, because most mechanics are targetted at one player at a time. And this is also true of fractals, therefore they are much more alike than it first appears. What you claim as the difference between challenging 5 man content and 10 man content is merely a number difference: it is more likely to have more players failing their individual mechanics during raids, simply because there are more players there to fail!
All your examples summed up can be replaces with one phrase – ’raids teaching you to perform your role decently and maybe sometimes deal with rng/raidwide mechanics". Fractals cannot do the same thing simply because there is only 5 man cap, and you cannot learn to perform typical raid roles in there without being artificially funneled into raid builds by devs. Which is not great idea really.
The whole idea of treating anything as a stepping stone to raids is a big mistake. It’s only demeaning to that other content, and presenting the idea that raids are somehow more special than the rest of the game (there are no “stepping stones” for wvw or spvp after all, and the only stepping stone for fractals are fractals themselves).
The only content that could possibly do something like that is “easy mode” raids.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
The whole idea of treating anything as a stepping stone to raids is a big mistake. It’s only demeaning to that other content, and presenting the idea that raids are somehow more special than the rest of the game (there are no “stepping stones” for wvw or spvp after all, and the only stepping stone for fractals are fractals themselves).
The only content that could possibly do something like that is “easy mode” raids.
By calling Fractals a stepping stone for raids it means players that want to Raid should get some experience in instanced content before entering Raids. A fresh level 80 with rare gear has no place in Raids, while they can do wvw, spvp and fractals without any problems, which is why there is no “stepping stone” needed for those game modes. The alternative would’ve been to hard lock Raids, like what happens with AR in Fractals, but that wouldn’t end well.
By calling Fractals a stepping stone for raids it means players that want to Raid should get some experience in instanced content before entering Raids. A fresh level 80 with rare gear has no place in Raids, while they can do wvw, spvp and fractals without any problems, which is why there is no “stepping stone” needed for those game modes. The alternative would’ve been to hard lock Raids, like what happens with AR in Fractals, but that wouldn’t end well.
Can you tell me why they must use resources of fractal team to make “stepping stones to raids”, effectively denying fractal players from new content that could be made with these resources, and not using the raid team instead?
Can you tell me why they must use resources of fractal team to make “stepping stones to raids”, effectively denying fractal players from new content that could be made with these resources, and not using the raid team instead?
The fractals team is making new content for fractals that have nothing to do with Raids. The “stepping stone” phrase means experience in instanced content, and the game in general, nothing more. It doesn’t affect the resources of the fractals team the least bit
The fractals team is making new content for fractals that have nothing to do with Raids. The “stepping stone” phrase means experience in instanced content, and the game in general, nothing more.
No. It was mentioned directly that the increase in difficulty in the new and reworked fractals was due to them wanting those to serve as stepping stone to raids. It’s a design goal now. That’s having one content having an impact of design decisions of another content that should be completely idependent. That also means that this one content (raids) is considered more important. Even for the devs from the group working on that other content (fractals).
Additionally, words have an impact. The company that once claimed that “whole game is the endgame” now says, that raids are the endgame content, and that fractals are a stepping stone to them. Since it’s a company that doesn’t say much if they can help it, it can only mean that they want the players to shift their outlook in the same way. They want players to think that raids are the most important PvE content, and that fractal importance lies in them being a pathway to raids.
I don’t think it’s a good message to send.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
No. It was mentioned directly that the increase in difficulty in the new and reworked fractals was due to them wanting those to serve as stepping stone to raids.
Um, no. The types of encounters are meant to give people experience with raid-like mechanics. The difficulty for T4 was always intended to be high and has nothing to do with raids.
John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”
I agree that fractals should be their on thing but i understand that devs wonna make it so if you are good in fractal u have better chances of succes in raids. Since fractals are easier to organise and start the devs can create encounters who strongly resemble those of raids in order to train ppl for them.
With that being said tho that doesn’t mean fractal should be that theres so much potential for fractals to co exist with raids as both end game pve and hardcore pve and have their own super hard encounters simiral to raids in terms of complexity and difficulty and i feel with challenge modes they can do that.
This is more of feedback to the developers that making more raid like fractals is always nice and welcome and it will help the community learn basic stuff that can help them in raids, but its also a plea for them to not treat fractal as such only and that having them coexist with raids imho is far better (with that i mean having at some point fractals being as dificult as raids for those who love fractals and want to find greater challenge in them.
tl;dr make fractals harder for challenge’s sake not for being a stepping stone for raids coz that will in the long term cripple them.
Raids prepare you for raids. Fractals are a 5 man content, and if you think they’ll make you better at raids, you’re wasting your time. And fractal devs should probably concentrate in making 5-man content unique.
If anything Nightmare CM is the best example of the difference in high level gameplay between 5 man and 10 man content.
Yes, they can make you better at dodging, dps management, and etc., but so does the rest of the content in the game.
That’s the point though.
Everything is a learning experience that culminates in their “toughest” content. No one said its content for everyone, that’s what the other pieces are for.
Everything from QD dodge device to Teq and Fractal 100 is prep for raids.
No. It was mentioned directly that the increase in difficulty in the new and reworked fractals was due to them wanting those to serve as stepping stone to raids. It’s a design goal now.
A design goal that doesn’t affect the fractals team at all. What increased difficulty I wonder? All the reworked fractals except for Swamp are easier than their old versions.
Thaumanova is now really easy, it used to be hard (and tedious, good that they changed it)
Snowblind is easier and now actually has some nice mechanics, it used to be just a bunch of mobs with lots of hit points and insane damage.
Underground difficulty has been nerfed, dredge can be blinded, you get the fixated mechanic at the last boss (which helps immensely)
Chaos is really easy compared to the earlier versions of all the above fractals.
Nightmare is also “easy” by means of having clear and interesting mechanics instead of the bosses there being hp sponges.
If anything the new design of fractals teaches players to learn mechanics to overcome the encounters instead of the old boring design that only taught players to dps (and skip)
No. It was mentioned directly that the increase in difficulty in the new and reworked fractals was due to them wanting those to serve as stepping stone to raids. It’s a design goal now.
A design goal that doesn’t affect the fractals team at all. What increased difficulty I wonder? All the reworked fractals except for Swamp are easier than their old versions.
Thaumanova is now really easy, it used to be hard (and tedious, good that they changed it)
Snowblind is easier and now actually has some nice mechanics, it used to be just a bunch of mobs with lots of hit points and insane damage.
Underground difficulty has been nerfed, dredge can be blinded, you get the fixated mechanic at the last boss (which helps immensely)
Chaos is really easy compared to the earlier versions of all the above fractals.
Nightmare is also “easy” by means of having clear and interesting mechanics instead of the bosses there being hp sponges.
If anything the new design of fractals teaches players to learn mechanics to overcome the encounters instead of the old boring design that only taught players to dps (and skip)
Where is this imaginary increase in difficulty?
snowblind became harder with the rework tho and more skillbased. Sure some hp bars might have gotten smaller but it require bigger awareness and its far less exploitable than what the previous one was.
True. There are so many people in GW2 who confuse mechanical depth with difficulty.
In an encounter every good mechanic is a tool the devs give the players to work with. If used wrong a tool won’t do its job and may very well even harm you. However when used correctly the task becomes almost trivial.
That is why expierienced and skillful players precieve the new T4 fractals as “so easy” because they use the full toolbox of mechanics to their advantage to go smoothly throuh the content.
However someone not using the mechanics (out of inexpierience or ignorance) will have a really rough time because the tools turn on them.
True. There are so many people in GW2 who confuse mechanical depth with difficulty.
In an encounter every good mechanic is a tool the devs give the players to work with. If used wrong a tool won’t do its job and may very well even harm you. However when used correctly the task becomes almost trivial.
That is why expierienced and skillful players precieve the new T4 fractals as “so easy” because they use the full toolbox of mechanics to their advantage to go smoothly throuh the content.
However someone not using the mechanics (out of inexpierience or ignorance) will have a really rough time because the tools turn on them.
No, they know it. But they just don’t want to follow mechanics. Thats why they want an easy mode at dungeon difficulty. Raids are not hard but requires you to follow the mechanics to succeed and the majority just doesn’t like it. Thats why bosses get more ‘tendious’ when they got mechanics in the past which you couldn’t ignore.
snowblind became harder with the rework tho and more skillbased. Sure some hp bars might have gotten smaller but it require bigger awareness and its far less exploitable than what the previous one was.
I disagree.
The first part to lit the brazier was made considerably easier, in the old days the svanir were 1-shotting you, so a very good tactic was to run around and kite them instead of fighting. Also, remember the thief/stealth strat to lit the flame without killing mobs?
The elemental was made really easy because now you cannot get teleported around if you keep at least one fire active. You don’t need all of them, just keep one active and no more teleports, also the aoe attack that causes cripple has a huge cd and no longer hurts as much.
The final boss was made more mechanic heavy because it was really pathetic for a end boss of an instance. You need to kill the effigies and destroy the ice pillars, some more awareness when they spawn, and good focus fire on the adds and there is no problem.
All the reworks lead to easier fractals and the new fractals are also easy. If you want a hard fractal remember Underground at release (stack on the wood)
What they mean as stepping stone is very simple.
Open world is a stepping stone to T1 fractals.
T1 fractals is a stepping stone to T2 fractals.
T2 fractals is a stepping stone to T3 fractals.
T3 fractals is a stepping stone to T4 fractals.
T4 fractals is a stepping stone to 100CM (and hoping new T4 CMs soons).
100CM is a stepping stone to Raids.
Then inside raids.
Cairn/Scort/Trio are stepping stone to VG/Sloth/Salmarog.
Salmarog/VG/Sloth are stepping stone to Deimos/Matthias/Xera…..
Stepping stone = the difficulty curve. How hard is to understand that?
True. There are so many people in GW2 who confuse mechanical depth with difficulty.
In an encounter every good mechanic is a tool the devs give the players to work with. If used wrong a tool won’t do its job and may very well even harm you. However when used correctly the task becomes almost trivial.
That is why expierienced and skillful players precieve the new T4 fractals as “so easy” because they use the full toolbox of mechanics to their advantage to go smoothly throuh the content.
However someone not using the mechanics (out of inexpierience or ignorance) will have a really rough time because the tools turn on them.
No, they know it. But they just don’t want to follow mechanics. Thats why they want an easy mode at dungeon difficulty. Raids are not hard but requires you to follow the mechanics to succeed and the majority just doesn’t like it. Thats why bosses get more ‘tendious’ when they got mechanics in the past which you couldn’t ignore.
You got be kidding me? Mechanics are tedious??
So a boss without mechanic that just sit there doing nothing and you just spam all your skills until it dies is what is fun?
Boss that have almost 0 mechanics and are just HP sponge are the most boring thing you can bring to a game.
snowblind became harder with the rework tho and more skillbased. Sure some hp bars might have gotten smaller but it require bigger awareness and its far less exploitable than what the previous one was.
I disagree.
The first part to lit the brazier was made considerably easier, in the old days the svanir were 1-shotting you, so a very good tactic was to run around and kite them instead of fighting. Also, remember the thief/stealth strat to lit the flame without killing mobs?
The elemental was made really easy because now you cannot get teleported around if you keep at least one fire active. You don’t need all of them, just keep one active and no more teleports, also the aoe attack that causes cripple has a huge cd and no longer hurts as much.
The final boss was made more mechanic heavy because it was really pathetic for a end boss of an instance. You need to kill the effigies and destroy the ice pillars, some more awareness when they spawn, and good focus fire on the adds and there is no problem.
All the reworks lead to easier fractals and the new fractals are also easy. If you want a hard fractal remember Underground at release (stack on the wood)
The fire tho requires you to cc the elementals and control them so they dont reacht he fire but ye the dmg mobs do is considerably lower. Or u used to have the mesmer or who ever solo kite the mobs around while the group lights the fires( having the thief doing it with stealth solo didn’t mean it was hard to do in any other way)
The elemental became harder tho even with the teleports ppl could just walk outside the arena and not pull agro and if there was someone who aggroed then u put up reflects and projectile midigation and you are done. Now you gotta have reflects ready at each 25% to avoind fires going off and it rewards groups that can deal with the projectiles but not teleporting them (i would increase the dmg of the svanir tho to add extra pressure) and its straight better to have all the fires lit because the of the dmg reduction the boss gets the less fires are lit. (i would like it tho for it to be even higher ( the reduction that is)).
True. There are so many people in GW2 who confuse mechanical depth with difficulty.
In an encounter every good mechanic is a tool the devs give the players to work with. If used wrong a tool won’t do its job and may very well even harm you. However when used correctly the task becomes almost trivial.
That is why expierienced and skillful players precieve the new T4 fractals as “so easy” because they use the full toolbox of mechanics to their advantage to go smoothly throuh the content.
However someone not using the mechanics (out of inexpierience or ignorance) will have a really rough time because the tools turn on them.
No, they know it. But they just don’t want to follow mechanics. Thats why they want an easy mode at dungeon difficulty. Raids are not hard but requires you to follow the mechanics to succeed and the majority just doesn’t like it. Thats why bosses get more ‘tendious’ when they got mechanics in the past which you couldn’t ignore.
You got be kidding me? Mechanics are tedious??
So a boss without mechanic that just sit there doing nothing and you just spam all your skills until it dies is what is fun?
Boss that have almost 0 mechanics and are just HP sponge are the most boring thing you can bring to a game.
The person you quoted doesn’t share the view of 0 mechanics, they were just expressing the views of the pro-easy mode crowd.
The fire tho requires you to cc the elementals and control them so they dont reacht he fire but ye the dmg mobs do is considerably lower. Or u used to have the mesmer or who ever solo kite the mobs around while the group lights the fires( having the thief doing it with stealth solo didn’t mean it was hard to do in any other way)
The elemental became harder tho even with the teleports ppl could just walk outside the arena and not pull agro and if there was someone who aggroed then u put up reflects and projectile midigation and you are done. Now you gotta have reflects ready at each 25% to avoind fires going off and it rewards groups that can deal with the projectiles but not teleporting them (i would increase the dmg of the svanir tho to add extra pressure) and its straight better to have all the fires lit because the of the dmg reduction the boss gets the less fires are lit. (i would like it tho for it to be even higher ( the reduction that is)).
Sry, but I disagree strongly.
The fire is a breeze, you don’t even need to cc the elementals, just do dmg. Even a condi necro will kill them with autoattacks. The former fire part has lead to wipes here and there in pugs – I experienced such runs while nowadays there is 0 possibility to have a group wipe.
The ice elemental part is way shorter in comparison to the running tactic before (that was only made in horrible pugs) and while I’ve seen many wipes on the old one I’ve yet to encounter my first wipe here. The old ice elementals hit hard in back in the past, the actual mobs are no threat and if you keep an eye on your fire, there is no way your group is getting teleported. The HP were also decreased heavily.
The only harder thing is the final boss but if you notice some lack of skill in your group, you focus on clearing trash and the pillars instead of bursting the boss down so the rest of your team will take the focus on the boss pretty soon.
