Guild Wars 2

First of, I must admit that I belong to the group of players that don’t like raiding or even the idea of raids in GW2

However, since it’s THE high end PVE content at the moment in GW2, I feel obliged to clear that content. I am video game player and that’s what I do, I clear content. Right now I’m back in game after a long time since I was really disappointed with the HoT and the developers curent game direction in general. My guild is dead, the few friends that I had are offline, but I kind of expected that so never mind.

I main as a mesmer, but since usually there’s only one needed in raid squad I’m building condition necro as an alternative. Slowly. And I begin to wonder, in what state the raids will be by the time I finish making my necro.

At the moment, raids are the only time worthy content being released, so I would say, raids are at the peak of their popularity right now and yet, I still struggle finding group. However, LS3 is on its way. If they won’t put the final nail in the coffin (from my point of view), the expansion is coming too. Will raids be even relevant by that time? Harder content is more likely to be abandoned as the time goes by and getting raid group should only be harder to find.

So, more content in the future means less raiding population. And more raid wings means stretching the remaining population even more. Will the older raids be nerfed for more people to attend them? Or the LS3 and expansion will be soon good, that more people will return to/join the game and raids will always be full of squads doing them?

The raid team has pretty good momentum. I don’t see them slowing down anytime soon, and expect to see the second raid soon. The target is one wing every 3.5 months or so, and we’re about a month after Forsaken Thicket has been completed. I’m personally expecting a raid with LS3 to tie in with the open world and story content.

Look for dedicated raiding guilds looking to fill out static teams. r/guildrecruitment is a good place to look. The one I’m in right now does frequent learning raids to get people familiar with mechanics and to spot the fast learners to get into static teams for quicker clears.

Rashy.4165:

The raid team has pretty good momentum. I don’t see them slowing down anytime soon, and expect to see the second raid soon. The target is one wing every 3.5 months or so, and we’re about a month after Forsaken Thicket has been completed. I’m personally expecting a raid with LS3 to tie in with the open world and story content.

Look for dedicated raiding guilds looking to fill out static teams. r/guildrecruitment is a good place to look. The one I’m in right now does frequent learning raids to get people familiar with mechanics and to spot the fast learners to get into static teams for quicker clears.

And this is what worries me. New raid wing every 3.5 months or so, means older raid wings gets more irrelevant.

On the contrary. People will still be doing earlier wings, but most groups are experienced to the point of clearing it fairly quickly (it’s been out for months, people know the mechanics). 40-50 minutes per wing, at most (Matthias still gives some people trouble).

Earlier wings are also more difficult (currently, anyway). Those make for great learning experiences for beginner raiders.

As long as we don’t get Things like WoW LFR ( Biggest Mistake of Blizzard in Terms of Raiding ) and as long as Anet is learning from every Encounter they create, I see a good Future for Raiding in GW2. Right now they are just scratching the Surface on what is possible and with more Experience they go deeper and deeper and we get more complicated and unique Bosses.

Walhalla.5473:

As long as we don’t get Things like WoW LFR ( Biggest Mistake of Blizzard in Terms of Raiding ) and as long as Anet is learning from every Encounter they create, I see a good Future for Raiding in GW2. Right now they are just scratching the Surface on what is possible and with more Experience they go deeper and deeper and we get more complicated and unique Bosses.

I’ve read a little about LFR raids in WoW and it doesn’t seem such a bad idea (on paper at least). Could you elaborate why puggable raids that prepares people for higher tiers is such a big mistake?

Manthas.6234:

I’ve read a little about LFR raids in WoW and it doesn’t seem such a bad idea (on paper at least). Could you elaborate why puggable raids that prepares people for higher tiers is such a big mistake?

AFAIK with LFR you’ll be partied together with some random people. So if the encounter needs 2 tanks, 2 healers, and 6 DPS, the game will simply search for people with those professions.

The reason why some people think it’s a big mistake? It eliminates the sense of community and camaraderie that comes with raiding. Instead of befriending with the people in your party, people simply see their party as a tool to get their reward. Instead of having to coordinate and cooperate with each other, every person just do their own thing. Kinda similar to GW2 dungeons, now that I think about it XD

Besides, it DOESN’T prepare people for higher tier. At LFR tier, people could ignore some of the raid mechanics, and in turn, they didn’t realize they need to learn that mechanic. Like, in lower tier fractal you may be able to pass by simply spamming skill at boss and facetanking the damage, but in higher tier you’d want to dodge and break bar, etc, something you won’t actually learn in the lower tier.

Like Legacy said. LFR doesn’t Prepare you for Raiding. You can have half of the Raid sitting there AFK and still kill the Bosses. One Time both Tanks were AFK and I ended up Tanking the Boss for a good Time as a Hunter before one of the got Back. You don’t have to fear dying because everything is doing next to no Damage ( with some exceptions ).
So yeah the LFR prepared you for Raiding the same Way Shatterer ( before his update ) prepares you for GW2 Raiding.

Also due to noone there using Voice Chat and mostly running like Headless Chicken it also feels a bit like you were playing a Singleplayer Game.

And Blizzard is doing another Mistake with LFR, giving them the same Tier Sets you also get in normal Raiding. Depending on the Set Bonusses, it could be mandatory for People to also go for LFR just to get the Set Bonus.

And LFR is giving the WoW a really bad Rep, despite Blizzard developing some of the hardest Raidbosses the Game has ever seen. I’ve seen quite a few Times that People said that WoW Raiding is so easy you could just AFK everything.

Manthas.6234:

Walhalla.5473:

As long as we don’t get Things like WoW LFR ( Biggest Mistake of Blizzard in Terms of Raiding ) and as long as Anet is learning from every Encounter they create, I see a good Future for Raiding in GW2. Right now they are just scratching the Surface on what is possible and with more Experience they go deeper and deeper and we get more complicated and unique Bosses.

I’ve read a little about LFR raids in WoW and it doesn’t seem such a bad idea (on paper at least). Could you elaborate why puggable raids that prepares people for higher tiers is such a big mistake?

In many ways they don’t prepare people for higher tiers (besides, in WoW, letting them obtain better gear, which isn’t really necessary in GW2). But the real reason why LFR is often mentioned to be a huge mistake by some raiders? Exclusivity. It opened the WoW raids to average players, instead of keeping them restricted to only a small minority.
Which is apparently a crime.

Contrary to some claims, it didn’t make WoW any less popular, though.

We’ve danced around this point in a lot of threads, but the reality is pretty straightforward – without the mass appeal something like a casual experience would create, I would rather see them abandon raiding altogether at this point.

If they allow raiding to take over the GW2 end game experience, then this isn’t the GW2 that millions of people bought into any longer. They need to focus on the larger PVE community or they will see the game population start to dwindle.

Even if they get back to regular open world PVE updates, this will happen. As long as people feel like they are being left out of the end game experience(for whatever reason – even if you believe it isn’t true), then they will feel SIGNIFICANTLY less enthusiastic about the rest of the game. I know my play time and gem store purchases (neither of which were insignificant) have both dropped way down since the introduction of raiding in the game.

You can argue the need to keep raids hardcore all you want, but that doesn’t change any of what I just said.

ArenaNet needs to get back to the basics that made this game so popular in the first three years. And they need to remember why things like scaling, dynamic events, etc brought so many players from other games (and players new to MMOs) to GW2. Everyone was on equal footing – and everyone felt like they were respected and included in the entire story. That is something a lot of other MMOs failed to do – thus the migration to this game.

Without that, I don’t see GW2 retaining anywhere near the population they have had in the past.

Blaeys.3102:

We’ve danced around this point in a lot of threads, but the reality is pretty straightforward – without the mass appeal something like a casual experience would create, I would rather see them abandon raiding altogether at this point.

If they allow raiding to take over the GW2 end game experience, then this isn’t the GW2 that millions of people bought into any longer. They need to focus on the larger PVE community or they will see the game population start to dwindle.

Even if they get back to regular open world PVE updates, this will happen. As long as people feel like they are being left out of the end game experience(for whatever reason – even if you believe it isn’t true), then they will feel SIGNIFICANTLY less enthusiastic about the rest of the game. I know my play time and gem store purchases (neither of which were insignificant) have both dropped way down since the introduction of raiding in the game.

You can argue the need to keep raids hardcore all you want, but that doesn’t change any of what I just said.

ArenaNet needs to get back to the basics that made this game so popular in the first three years. And they need to remember why things like scaling, dynamic events, etc brought so many players from other games (and players new to MMOs) to GW2. Everyone was on equal footing – and everyone felt like they were respected and included in the entire story. That is something a lot of other MMOs failed to do – thus the migration to this game.

Without that, I don’t see GW2 retaining anywhere near the population they have had in the past.

The team working on raids is really small. Like maybe 2-5% of the entire team.

Some people really like raids. If you are offended by their mere existence, then perhaps you should refocus on what you find fun and play that.

Absurdo.8309:

The team working on raids is really small. Like maybe 2-5% of the entire team.

Some people really like raids. If you are offended by their mere existence, then perhaps you should refocus on what you find fun and play that.

No one is offended by existence of good content. However, a lot of people are offended by how this content is being implemented and positioned.

Rednik.3809:

a lot of people

This is highly debatable since there are less than 20 people in this forum complaining about raids.
I only read the same names over and over again discussing or writing stuff against raids, I can even name them by heart!
The discussions aren’t even toxic so the argument that’s brought into here from time to time that players are afraid of posting here is nonsense.
It’s rather the other way round: There is a tiny or very small minority of players who is directly against raids and wants changes. Also I have never ever read anything against like this ingame while there were big discussions about Living Story and Living events.
So, the folks not raiding just don’t care about them and on the other hand there is so much going on in the lfg like good old dungeon times. I really appreciate that!

Vinceman.4572:

The discussions aren’t even toxic so the argument that’s brought into here from time to time that players are afraid of posting here is nonsense.

I would disagree with this statement. There are a lot of derisive statements in these threads, including people calling people lazy, bad players, etc. Not long ago, someone told another player his social guild was “bad” because they didn’t raid. Your own statement insinuates that people asking for this are in the extreme minority, and therefore wrong – when both sides (at least on the forums) seem to be about the same size in terms of numbers (a point that really doesn’t mean anything anyway).

To Anet’s credit, many of the worst examples of this have been deleted (including one posted just this morning in this very thread) – and rightfully so.

Additionally, I have both been attacked in game because I have dared to express my opinion here – and I have been thanked by people who told me directly they didn’t want to post for fear of blowback or negativity. Last time I brought that up on these forums, I was basically told it was my own fault.

It isn’t easy to post about this topic. You have to be ready for some pretty hateful comments.

To compound that, Anet insists on moving all of these threads to the raiding subforum, where – for obvious reasons – there are more raiders than casual players.

But, none of that should matter. The point of the forums is to provide a place were all voices can be heard.

So, let’s agree to stop the argument about which group is the biggest or who is or isn’t represented on the forums (a topic that has been beaten to death) and just continue the dialogue about the topic at hand in a mature and civil manner.

Blaeys.3102:

Vinceman.4572:

The discussions aren’t even toxic so the argument that’s brought into here from time to time that players are afraid of posting here is nonsense.

I would disagree with this statement. There are a lot of derisive statements in these threads, including people calling people lazy, bad players, etc. Not long ago, someone told another player his social guild was “bad” because they didn’t raid. Your own statement insinuates that people asking for this are in the extreme minority, and therefore wrong – when both sides (at least on the forums) seem to be about the same size in terms of numbers (a point that really doesn’t mean anything anyway).

To Anet’s credit, many of the worst examples of this have been deleted (including one posted just this morning in this very thread) – and rightfully so.

Additionally, I have both been attacked in game because I have dared to express my opinion here – and I have been thanked by people who told me directly they didn’t want to post for fear of blowback or negativity. Last time I brought that up on these forums, I was basically told it was my own fault.

It isn’t easy to post about this topic. You have to be ready for some pretty hateful comments.

To compound that, Anet insists on moving all of these threads to the raiding subforum, where – for obvious reasons – there are more raiders than casual players.

But, none of that should matter. The point of the forums is to provide a place were all voices can be heard.

So, let’s agree to stop the argument about which group is the biggest or who is or isn’t represented on the forums (a topic that has been beaten to death) and just continue the dialogue about the topic at hand in a mature and civil manner.

To your credit, you seem to be one of the more thoughtful posters on your side of this debate.

But even you have called for the discontinuation of raids (if they continue in their current form). A lot of people like them. Expect vigorous opposition. I won’t excuse people who insult you, but don’t mistake people who disagree with you as insults.

And, to be honest, I’m starting to doubt whether these insults are real to the extent you describe them. I called that guild “bad.” One poster complained that he was unable to join a raiding guild group in his 1000 person guild. The guild wasn’t bad because it didn’t want to raid. The guild was bad because it failed to connect would-be raiders. I’m not sure what’s the point of a general purpose 1000 person guild otherwise.

We get the same tired arguments with the same cast of characters in each of these threads. I want the lore. I want to beat everything. I want the legendary armor. They don’t really justify an easy mode, but feel free to repeat them.

The ones against hardcore raiders and calling them “elitists” have been the ones that appear the most toxic from my point of view. I don’t see these “elitist” raiders coming into the forums making threads that disparage “casual” players. You saw the same with dungeons long ago as well. Players are entitled to have requirements in their LFG posts on who they want to group with. If others have issues with this requirement then they can simply create their own LFG with no requirements and play with like-minded players. Everyone wins.

Raids are also meant for a small subset of the playerbase that actually enjoy content that is challenging. Just because some people do not like that type of content does not mean that it should be discontinued. It’s a little selfish and seems to be on the same level as some PvE players who get upset when Anet does anything PvP or WvW related as if the entire game should revolve around their specific game mode or style of play.

Absurdo.8309:

To your credit, you seem to be one of the more thoughtful posters on your side of this debate.

I would say the same of many of your posts – even though you and I obviously disagree strongly about this.

There is a lot of emotion, negativity and ill will from both sides of this argument – but, in between those less rational posts, there is actually a pretty decent and worthwhile discussion taking place.

Regardless of where they go with raids, I think that discussion is worth having and of value to both the community and the developers.

I don’t think raids are in a bad spot at all, and getting rid of them would disapoint many players. What I do think is in a bad spot (getting better though) is content outside of raids. The raid team is hitting it out of the park, but things like LS3 aren’t here yet and nothing is really giving new lore. The fractal team is showing great promise with the Cliffside rework however, so let’s determine if people who don’t raid are getting equal quality content with LS3 release and then if it’s still not in a good position the discussion probably shouldn’t be “What do we do to raids.” It should be how we bring the rest of the game up for people who don’t want to or can’t raid. Anet can’t exactly stop or remove raids regardless. Remember the backlash when HoT legendaries were delayed, not even canceled? Think of what would happen if raids (a much bigger feature and something that people could solely justify a HoT purchase) was canceled. shudders Anet would have many pillar greatswords, sloth focuses, and bloodstone weaponry aimed at them.

Edit: After looking at some people who talk about raids I think some of the community is the issue too, sheesh. You either have people who will not budge or people who get mean with it on both sides. Raids aren’t even that hard once you are geared and know your rotations… Hell, if you just want to press 3 buttons excluding breakbar times just play a Hammer DH, I get 20k dps on the golem with expected raid buffs without food on and its protection to 5 in melee group.

I personally think more people are able to get into raids than they give themselves credit. The average players, the ones who know how to play their class well in dungeons and fractals, are able to get into raids with the right group, with enough exposure to boss mechanics to practice doing them. All it takes is a bit more effort to get to that point (I speak from experience. I considered myself about average before raids, and after about 2 months of raiding, I’ve gotten to the point of being able to do full clears, and it really didn’t take as much effort as I anticipated).

There are plenty of avenues for that.

Rashy.4165:

I personally think more people are able to get into raids than they give themselves credit. The average players, the ones who know how to play their class well in dungeons and fractals, are able to get into raids with the right group, with enough exposure to boss mechanics to practice doing them. All it takes is a bit more effort to get to that point (I speak from experience. I considered myself about average before raids, and after about 2 months of raiding, I’ve gotten to the point of being able to do full clears, and it really didn’t take as much effort as I anticipated).

There are plenty of avenues for that.

Very good point! But were you in an established guild team or did you PuG it? And also, how much did you see of people asking for LI’s if you pugged?

Astralporing.1957:

Manthas.6234:

Walhalla.5473:

As long as we don’t get Things like WoW LFR ( Biggest Mistake of Blizzard in Terms of Raiding ) and as long as Anet is learning from every Encounter they create, I see a good Future for Raiding in GW2. Right now they are just scratching the Surface on what is possible and with more Experience they go deeper and deeper and we get more complicated and unique Bosses.

I’ve read a little about LFR raids in WoW and it doesn’t seem such a bad idea (on paper at least). Could you elaborate why puggable raids that prepares people for higher tiers is such a big mistake?

In many ways they don’t prepare people for higher tiers (besides, in WoW, letting them obtain better gear, which isn’t really necessary in GW2). But the real reason why LFR is often mentioned to be a huge mistake by some raiders? Exclusivity. It opened the WoW raids to average players, instead of keeping them restricted to only a small minority.
Which is apparently a crime.

Contrary to some claims, it didn’t make WoW any less popular, though.

It’s not (only) that. Killing that really hard boss after many attempts and seeing it finally dead and sometimes even getting that awesome cutscene for the first time is a great feeling.

Now with LFR it’s simply not the same anymore since you already experienced it but without the investement and it simply becomes less epic, less personal and less special.

Also LFR gives you the chance at good loot that helps you progress through the normal raid so simply skipping LFR isn’t an option most of the time.

SproutJr.4802:

Rashy.4165:

I personally think more people are able to get into raids than they give themselves credit. The average players, the ones who know how to play their class well in dungeons and fractals, are able to get into raids with the right group, with enough exposure to boss mechanics to practice doing them. All it takes is a bit more effort to get to that point (I speak from experience. I considered myself about average before raids, and after about 2 months of raiding, I’ve gotten to the point of being able to do full clears, and it really didn’t take as much effort as I anticipated).

There are plenty of avenues for that.

Very good point! But were you in an established guild team or did you PuG it? And also, how much did you see of people asking for LI’s if you pugged?

I didn’t PUG, I sought out raid guilds from the get-go (I knew it would be futile to attempt to PUG). The first guild I joined was with some friends, but they didn’t invite me into their group due to lack of experience. One jokingly told me to “gitgud”. The next guild I joined was more willing to take me on learning raids (effectively PUGs formed within the guild – 4-5 experienced players, rest inexperienced). Two weeks of that, and the guild that originally didn’t invite me to raids? They started inviting me to their raid groups, and consider me as part of their static group now, even going as far as to grab me quickly before any other group does.

And it kinda snowballed from there. Currently have three potential statics to raid with.

I occasionally PUGed at reset, but wasn’t asked for LIs. We cleared SV in 45 minutes during one of those runs (reset is usually the best time to find good PUGs). At the time I PUGed, I had 33 LI and had a Matthias kill.

Manthas.6234:

Rashy.4165:

The raid team has pretty good momentum. I don’t see them slowing down anytime soon, and expect to see the second raid soon. The target is one wing every 3.5 months or so, and we’re about a month after Forsaken Thicket has been completed. I’m personally expecting a raid with LS3 to tie in with the open world and story content.

Look for dedicated raiding guilds looking to fill out static teams. r/guildrecruitment is a good place to look. The one I’m in right now does frequent learning raids to get people familiar with mechanics and to spot the fast learners to get into static teams for quicker clears.

And this is what worries me. New raid wing every 3.5 months or so, means older raid wings gets more irrelevant.

Well, your worries are unfounded. The great thing about GW2 Raids is that every wing will always be relevant for two reasons. One, all bosses drop insights. Two, there is no extra tier of gear to make old raids pointless like WOW and other MMO’s. It’s actually really well thought out.

Vg will still be as relevant as whatever bosses come out in future raids.

SproutJr.4802:

Rashy.4165:

I personally think more people are able to get into raids than they give themselves credit. The average players, the ones who know how to play their class well in dungeons and fractals, are able to get into raids with the right group, with enough exposure to boss mechanics to practice doing them. All it takes is a bit more effort to get to that point (I speak from experience. I considered myself about average before raids, and after about 2 months of raiding, I’ve gotten to the point of being able to do full clears, and it really didn’t take as much effort as I anticipated).

There are plenty of avenues for that.

Very good point! But were you in an established guild team or did you PuG it? And also, how much did you see of people asking for LI’s if you pugged?

I’ve pugged literally every raid iv’e done and I ignore any groups that request LI. ESPECIALLY for SV. The only bosses I haven’t done are Matthias, Xera and KC and even then through people I have met in Pug groups, I am constantly getting invited to try these. But I decline them as I want to get round to watching videos of the fights etc first.

This mainly started from me making my own groups and making sure my teammates at elast had meta/decent builds, food and utilities and were able to join discord/ts..even though you are not required to speak.

Interesting. Well, if any one says they can’t find a group definitely share the stories. And yes, old raids won’t go anywhere. There will always be new raid groups who want to do all the raids, including old ones.

Astralporing.1957

But the real reason why LFR is often mentioned to be a huge mistake by some raiders? Exclusivity. It opened the WoW raids to average players, instead of keeping them restricted to only a small minority.
Which is apparently a crime.

This is valid for GW2 also – opening the content to ALL players is a major crime. At least for one part of the community.

This is highly debatable since there are less than 20 people in this forum complaining about raids. It’s rather the other way round: There is a tiny or very small minority of players who is directly against raids and wants changes.

Well, due to the massive drop in the player base, it seems that the percentage of raiders raised :-)))). I saw in this forum a 20% percentage of raiders ?!?!. It seems Anet is seriously thinking to have a 100% raiders community. Even if this means to find methods to make the rest of the non raiding community to leave the game :-)). In the end, only the raiders will stay – and even if the number of raiders will be the same as now, the percentage will raise to 100%. Still, i have serious doubts that the 20% raiders represents a reliable number – look at the topic asking lowering the LI request for Legendary. I think that a LOT of the raiders are non permanent/dedicated raiders. The number of hardcore raiders is probably much lower. And because they can raid only once per week they have plenty of time to post here on forum. Waiting the next week raid :-)). I think that only around 5% of GW2 players are raiders.
But to become serious: I don’t know if is very accurate for a representative of a 20% part of community to call the other 80% “a tiny or very small minority of players” (the bold is mine). In designing the HoT, Anet kept in mind the demands of the “large” 20% “majority” of gamers: challenging content (aka hard to impossible to complete for the (filthy) casuals), exclusive rewards – available only for the raiders, grinding, grinding and grinding. The results: The player base is now very thin (to the point the few raiders represents 20%! of the entire player base), Collin lost his job (they needed a scapegoat for the calamity named HoT), the officials almost apologized with the famous statement: " we learned the lesson" and the promise to “repair” what was destroyed.
This was the result of ignoring the 80% of the playerbase (representing the tiny or very small minority of players) voice. And Vince is asking Anet to do the same thing in the future :-)) Nice :-))
To answer to the OP question: Future of the raids?
Well, if Anet will continue on this line, by making some pieces of content only for the “large 20% majority” of the players, they can very well start preparing the burial rituals for the GW2.

Vinceman.4572 – sorry – the last quote in my replica is from your post – but the owner name did not appear. Sorry again, I still have problems in mastering the Forum skills (it seems I’m a casual here)

I personally think more people are able to get into raids than they give themselves credit. The average players, the ones who know how to play their class well in dungeons and fractals, are able to get into raids with the right group, with enough exposure to boss mechanics to practice doing them. All it takes is a bit more effort to get to that point (I speak from experience. I considered myself about average before raids, and after about 2 months of raiding, I’ve gotten to the point of being able to do full clears, and it really didn’t take as much effort as I anticipated).

Just because people might potentially be capable of passing a raid, doesn’t mean that they want to, or should have to. If a player does not enjoy raiding, then he should have no reason to do raids, and should not feel that he’s missing out on anything OTHER than the experience of hardcore raiding content. You are trying to encourage players who aren’t raiding to raid, how about instead accepting that they don’t want to raid, and helping them to find what would make them happy about the situation?

Ohoni.6057:

I personally think more people are able to get into raids than they give themselves credit. The average players, the ones who know how to play their class well in dungeons and fractals, are able to get into raids with the right group, with enough exposure to boss mechanics to practice doing them. All it takes is a bit more effort to get to that point (I speak from experience. I considered myself about average before raids, and after about 2 months of raiding, I’ve gotten to the point of being able to do full clears, and it really didn’t take as much effort as I anticipated).

Just because people might potentially be capable of passing a raid, doesn’t mean that they want to, or should have to. If a player does not enjoy raiding, then he should have no reason to do raids, and should not feel that he’s missing out on anything OTHER than the experience of hardcore raiding content. You are trying to encourage players who aren’t raiding to raid, how about instead accepting that they don’t want to raid, and helping them to find what would make them happy about the situation?

Then that is their choice. If they don’t want to get into raiding for the sake of raiding, then there’s little else I can do to help.

As for making non-raiders “happy” about the situation, people want different things. I can’t please everyone, and ArenaNet can’t do that either.

The ones who don’t want to get into raiding have lost the right to complain about lack of rewards or content – they choose to separate themselves from that content even if they are fully capable of experiencing that content. That’s decision is entirely on them, and I take absolutely no responsibility for it, and shouldn’t be obligated to.

Then that is their choice. If they don’t want to get into raiding for the sake of raiding, then there’s little else I can do to help.

As for making non-raiders “happy” about the situation, people want different things. I can’t please everyone, and ArenaNet can’t do that either.

The ones who don’t want to get into raiding have lost the right to complain about lack of rewards or content – they choose to separate themselves from that content even if they are fully capable of experiencing that content. That’s decision is entirely on them, and I take absolutely no responsibility for it, and shouldn’t be obligated to.

And that’s the problem. People who don’t want to raid have not “brought it on themselves.” They didn’t want to raid going in, and it’s ANet that locked certain content and rewards behind raiding. There is nothing that can be done to make those players enjoy raiding in its current form, but most that could happen is that they would raid anyway and not enjoy themselves, and nobody actually benefits from that, least of all ANet.

Any actual solution has to involve providing these players with the aspects of the current raid experience that they do want, without requiring that they participate in the elements that they don’t want.

Ohoni.6057:

Any actual solution has to involve providing these players with the aspects of the current raid experience that they do want, without requiring that they participate in the elements that they don’t want.

Raids are in the game not because ArenaNet decided it on a whim, but because players actually wanted challenging experiences. The players who don’t want those challenging experiences have made that decision.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/cdi/CDI-Guilds-Raiding/first

I’m seeing more “I don’t like raiding” than “I don’t like this particular specific aspect of raiding”. I’m seeing a lot of “I want to experience the story of raids” which can be done in a cleared instance, but people are resistant to that idea because they “still want to experience the fights themselves” (which contradicts their original view of not wanting to get into raiding for the fights) which doesn’t have much bearing on the story (you get only a bit of flavour dialogue during the fight itself, and what little story is in the raids are items you can interact with, and only give subtle hints).

The point being, non-raiders aren’t being specific enough, or are making contradictory statements about what they want.

ANet’s current approach is probably the only thing they can do: keep raiding separate. If story elements of raids are important elsewhere (Living story), then it will be made available to non-raiders through alternative means. Living story is the content that’s targeted at the average player, and if the stories are related, then it’s two different experiences of effectively the same story.

Raids are in the game not because ArenaNet decided it on a whim, but because players actually wanted challenging experiences.

Some did, many did not.

The important thing is to provide the experience that those few players wanted, without harming the experience for everyone else by blocking story or reward elements from them.

but people are resistant to that idea because they “still want to experience the fights themselves” (which contradicts their original view of not wanting to get into raiding for the fights)

I’ve been clear on my stance to this. I do want to experience the fights, I do NOT want to experience the wipes. I want to experience the fights in a manner in which the mechanics are present, but failing to nail the mechanics has a reduced penalty element, making a wipe less likely to result. A very imperfect attempt would still result in overall success, just not “perfect” success, and instead of repeatedly failing the content over and over and over and over until eventually you get it all perfect, you could clear the content over and over and over, clearing it faster and more efficiently each time.

I’m aware that some raiders would hate that as much as I hate the former, which is why I’ve always stressed that as an alternative, rather than as a replacement, but if it can only be one or the other, I vote for the latter.

Ohoni.6057:

Raids are in the game not because ArenaNet decided it on a whim, but because players actually wanted challenging experiences.

Some did, many did not.

The important thing is to provide the experience that those few players wanted, without harming the experience for everyone else by blocking story or reward elements from them.

but people are resistant to that idea because they “still want to experience the fights themselves” (which contradicts their original view of not wanting to get into raiding for the fights)

I’ve been clear on my stance to this. I do want to experience the fights, I do NOT want to experience the wipes. I want to experience the fights in a manner in which the mechanics are present, but failing to nail the mechanics has a reduced penalty element, making a wipe less likely to result. A very imperfect attempt would still result in overall success, just not “perfect” success, and instead of repeatedly failing the content over and over and over and over until eventually you get it all perfect, you could clear the content over and over and over, clearing it faster and more efficiently each time.

I’m aware that some raiders would hate that as much as I hate the former, which is why I’ve always stressed that as an alternative, rather than as a replacement, but if it can only be one or the other, I vote for the latter.

So you want raids where you are never punished for making mistakes? A raid where you don’t wipe? I can’t believe this is even a thing lol.

Not so many absolutes, not “never” and “don’t,” I want raids that are more like dungeons in terms of risk, where wipes are relatively uncommon, and punishment for failing a mechanic is not an auto-defeat, not even an auto-down, but just some damage that maybe you can recover from and continue. I want failure to have just enough of a slap to it that you’re aware you messed it up, without being so harsh that you cannot recover and continue the fight. Only repeated and significant skill failures should result in actual wipe/reset.

I want “training runs” where instead of spending three hours wiping repeatedly against the boss and maybe getting to the second or if you’re very lucky third phase of the fight, you instead go in there, wipe once or twice while picking up the timing, but actually complete the boss within the first hour or so.

There is nothing in a raid that really slaps you. The reason groups wipe is down to players messing up not mechanics. Why would anyone run to the green circles at VG (in your version) if the penalty was damage you could just heal through and recover from? There would be no reason to do any mechanics if you weren’t heavily penalised for missing.

Also how would you learn in these ‘training runs’? What incentive or reason would a guy have to run to the green circles if he knew we can just heal up and recover.

Ohoni.6057:

I want raids that are more like dungeons in terms of risk, where wipes are relatively uncommon, and punishment for failing a mechanic is not an auto-defeat, not even an auto-down, but just some damage that maybe you can recover from and continue. I want failure to have just enough of a slap to it that you’re aware you messed it up, without being so harsh that you cannot recover and continue the fight. Only repeated and significant skill failures should result in actual wipe/reset.

But that’s… not challenging then. That’s not the “challenging group content” that was listed as one of HoT’s features =/ What you asked is basically a dungeon or a fractal.

There is nothing in a raid that really slaps you. The reason groups wipe is down to players messing up not mechanics. Why would anyone run to the green circles at VG (in your version) if the penalty was damage you could just heal through and recover from? There would be no reason to do any mechanics if you weren’t heavily penalised for missing.

For fun. To try and do the job as best you can. Most players are probably familiar with the CoF path 1 flame effigy? This is not a difficult boss, most teams should be able to bully it down without much trouble. But it does have set moves and a series of tells, and back when I was running CoF regularly, I had a lot of fun trying to avoid every single one of its attacks completely while still keeping damage up. Sure, you can just facetank most of it, but where’s the fun in that? Conversely, if all of his attacks were so deadly that you had to avoid every single one, then it would suck all the fun out of the encounter because it would just turn into a tense and frustrating hell.

Ideally, enemies will present you with plenty of opportunities to react effectively, but without requiring that you actually be terribly good at it in order to advance.

Also how would you learn in these ‘training runs’? What incentive or reason would a guy have to run to the green circles if he knew we can just heal up and recover.

It depends on what his goal is. If his goal is just to clear this easier mode as quickly and efficiently as possible, then maybe he would ignore that mechanics, and that’s fine if that’s how he wants to play. On the other hand, if he does have interest in learning the hard mode (and no reason he should have to, but he might want to), then he would know that hard mode would require him to nail that element, so he’d want to try and nail it even if his current mode would not punish him.

Think of it like point sparring in boxing, it might not hurt bad, with all the padding and light contact, to get tagged by a punch in a light sparring match, but you know that if that were a real fight the punch would really hurt, so even if the sparring punch doesn’t actually hurt you and you can keep fighting, you want to minimize the number that get through anyway. If you’re just new and getting started you might take dozens of hits to the head. Any 2-3 of them would lay you out if the opponent were going full force at you, and would have ended the fight completely. But as you keep experiencing them, you start to pick up on how best to manage them, and eventually you’re taking less and less of them.

But that’s… not challenging then. That’s not the “challenging group content” that was listed as one of HoT’s features =/ What you asked is basically a dungeon or a fractal.

It’s definitely not challenging, so we go back to a previous statement:

Raids are in the game not because ArenaNet decided it on a whim, but because players actually wanted challenging experiences.

Some did, many did not.

The important thing is to provide the experience that those few players wanted, without harming the experience for everyone else by blocking story or reward elements from them.

If you enjoy challenging content, then that should still be available to you, but for players that do not enjoy challenging content, there should be a version for them as well. You do not need to play this version.

Huh, I just realized one thing.

Ohoni, if they made fractal out of the current raid wings, would that satisfy you? Just make it so every fractal is 2 boss or something (like VG + events + Gorseval, etc). They would have super similar experience with raid I guess (other than the challenge)

Ohoni, if they made fractal out of the current raid wings, would that satisfy you? Just make it so every fractal is 2 boss or something (like VG + events + Gorseval, etc). They would have super similar experience with raid I guess (other than the challenge)

Part of it, at least. I mean, I’d play it. I won’t mention the reward structure because I know that brings the trolls to the yard, but obviously that would be another factor. But yeah, in terms of gameplay a fractal version like you describe would be adequate to the task.

The only issue there though is that I see adapting the raids to be Fractals as being WAY more work than making easy mode raids. I mean, I know how you guys hate assuming things about the time and effort of developing content, but just based on what would be involved I can’t imagine it being less work.

• They’d have to adapt the mechanics so that they would function with 5-man teams instead of ten, when to the best of my knowledge few if any of the bosses have been beaten with 5-man teams.

• They’d be adding glide and leyline gliding mechanics to Fractals, which are meant to be doable even without HoT, which would be a first. They’d also talked in the distant past about how you’d only need HoT masteries inside Forsaken Thicket, and only need XPac 2 masteries inside the XPac 2 raids, which would get complicated.

• They would obviously need to break up the maps and fit them into their Fractal loading system, which I believe is actually one huge map or something?

• They would need to loop the maps into the existing Fractal map listings, which I imagine would bump things around quite a bit.

• They would have to design mechanics to include Agony in some form to be consistent with other zones.

I don’t know, just seems like a lot more work to me. They made the Aether-maps into Fractals, years ago, and haven’t done that since with any other content, which tells me it’s far from a trivial process. Making an easier version of the raid seems far simpler, since you’d only have to copy-paste the existing content entirely, put a “Spirit Vale (easy)” option on the “join raid” screen, and then tune the mobs accordingly (which is not trivial, but would be easier than making them easier AND work with five players AND involve Agony AND have probably 2-3 different versions for different Fractal tiers).

So, better than nothing, but probably far from the ideal solution for anyone involved.

[edit] And one other potential issue is that currently if you clear a raid, you can then wander around it, read the lore, collect side things, whatever, while in Fractals, if you clear a Fractal island you move immediately to another and never see the one you left again (without restarting it from scratch). This means that the only way to “explore” these maps would be to seek out specific parties that are cool with that sort of thing. Again, better than nothing, far from ideal.

Cristalyan.5728:

Astralporing.1957

But the real reason why LFR is often mentioned to be a huge mistake by some raiders? Exclusivity. It opened the WoW raids to average players, instead of keeping them restricted to only a small minority.
Which is apparently a crime.

This is valid for GW2 also – opening the content to ALL players is a major crime. At least for one part of the community.

This is highly debatable since there are less than 20 people in this forum complaining about raids. It’s rather the other way round: There is a tiny or very small minority of players who is directly against raids and wants changes.

Well, due to the massive drop in the player base, it seems that the percentage of raiders raised :-)))). I saw in this forum a 20% percentage of raiders ?!?!. It seems Anet is seriously thinking to have a 100% raiders community. Even if this means to find methods to make the rest of the non raiding community to leave the game :-)). In the end, only the raiders will stay – and even if the number of raiders will be the same as now, the percentage will raise to 100%. Still, i have serious doubts that the 20% raiders represents a reliable number – look at the topic asking lowering the LI request for Legendary. I think that a LOT of the raiders are non permanent/dedicated raiders. The number of hardcore raiders is probably much lower. And because they can raid only once per week they have plenty of time to post here on forum. Waiting the next week raid :-)). I think that only around 5% of GW2 players are raiders.
But to become serious: I don’t know if is very accurate for a representative of a 20% part of community to call the other 80% “a tiny or very small minority of players” (the bold is mine). In designing the HoT, Anet kept in mind the demands of the “large” 20% “majority” of gamers: challenging content (aka hard to impossible to complete for the (filthy) casuals), exclusive rewards – available only for the raiders, grinding, grinding and grinding. The results: The player base is now very thin (to the point the few raiders represents 20%! of the entire player base), Collin lost his job (they needed a scapegoat for the calamity named HoT), the officials almost apologized with the famous statement: " we learned the lesson" and the promise to “repair” what was destroyed.
This was the result of ignoring the 80% of the playerbase (representing the tiny or very small minority of players) voice. And Vince is asking Anet to do the same thing in the future :-)) Nice :-))
To answer to the OP question: Future of the raids?
Well, if Anet will continue on this line, by making some pieces of content only for the “large 20% majority” of the players, they can very well start preparing the burial rituals for the GW2.

Well, I can surely say for myself that I don´t want to raid. I probably could, but I don´t want too. I simply fail to see the magic in continual wipping and the satisfaction that you made another step(or not) before the timer kicked in, but that is just me.

The strange part of this is that I got six magnetide shards from the tower events and other attempts when I was dragged kicking and screaming into practice runs from my guild, and Anet probably considers me to be a raider while that is far from the truth.

With that in mind, I hope Anet manages to balance raids and other content that is not Esport, but I seriously doubt that. So in my personal! opinion, I hope that Anet fully returns to living world one day.

Funny enough, I think that your perception of Anet thinking that everyone is a raider could be really spot on. Mr. O`Brien also once stated that he thinks that every wvw player is also a pve player by hearth.^^

LegACy.1296:

Ohoni.6057:

I want raids that are more like dungeons in terms of risk, where wipes are relatively uncommon, and punishment for failing a mechanic is not an auto-defeat, not even an auto-down, but just some damage that maybe you can recover from and continue. I want failure to have just enough of a slap to it that you’re aware you messed it up, without being so harsh that you cannot recover and continue the fight. Only repeated and significant skill failures should result in actual wipe/reset.

But that’s… not challenging then. That’s not the “challenging group content” that was listed as one of HoT’s features =/ What you asked is basically a dungeon or a fractal.

If you want to keep getting stuck on the name issue, then yes, that would be a 10-man dungeon/fractal version of the current raids. It would still be an easy mode raid instance, though.
Easier to do it that way than to chop it into pieces, while at the same time adjusting to lower number of players (and things like fractal instabilities).

Cristalyan.5728:

Well, due to the massive drop in the player base, it seems that the percentage of raiders raised :-)))). I saw in this forum a 20% percentage of raiders ?!?!. It seems Anet is seriously thinking to have a 100% raiders community. Even if this means to find methods to make the rest of the non raiding community to leave the game :-)). In the end, only the raiders will stay – and even if the number of raiders will be the same as now, the percentage will raise to 100%. Still, i have serious doubts that the 20% raiders represents a reliable number – look at the topic asking lowering the LI request for Legendary. I think that a LOT of the raiders are non permanent/dedicated raiders. The number of hardcore raiders is probably much lower. And because they can raid only once per week they have plenty of time to post here on forum. Waiting the next week raid :-)). I think that only around 5% of GW2 players are raiders.
But to become serious: I don’t know if is very accurate for a representative of a 20% part of community to call the other 80% “a tiny or very small minority of players” (the bold is mine). In designing the HoT, Anet kept in mind the demands of the “large” 20% “majority” of gamers: challenging content (aka hard to impossible to complete for the (filthy) casuals), exclusive rewards – available only for the raiders, grinding, grinding and grinding. The results: The player base is now very thin (to the point the few raiders represents 20%! of the entire player base), Collin lost his job (they needed a scapegoat for the calamity named HoT), the officials almost apologized with the famous statement: " we learned the lesson" and the promise to “repair” what was destroyed.
This was the result of ignoring the 80% of the playerbase (representing the tiny or very small minority of players) voice. And Vince is asking Anet to do the same thing in the future :-)) Nice :-))
To answer to the OP question: Future of the raids?
Well, if Anet will continue on this line, by making some pieces of content only for the “large 20% majority” of the players, they can very well start preparing the burial rituals for the GW2.

1. You haven’t even understood what I wrote. I talked about 20 complaining people in this forum vs. a higher number of satisfied raiders.
Nobody was talking about 20% or something. Only Anet has the real data, so every statistical attempt from your/our side is just guessing and absolutely rubbish.
We can’t even make an assumption while I can count the people in this part of the forum. ^^

2. Colin hasn’t “lost” his job. He left for reasons. You can read, just google it.

3. Anet isn’t ignoring the majority of players. The majority of players got HoT, a nice Q2-Update and will get the LS3 soon.
Raids weren’t developed while other content was paused. All three wings belong to the expansion, they just weren’t released at HoT-launch. The raiding team consists of 6 people while the overwhelming majority (more than hundred) is working on the LS3 and the next expansion.
Raids are a niche, a really really small one but with a constant playerbase. We have been demanding for content like that since 3 years and now we’ve gotten it while the huge part of the game is still not challenging at all.
So, please don’t speak about a focus on raids or anything like that if you are simply missinformed.

So question, why do the non Raiders not complain so vehemently about all the ascended backpieces, armour skins, and content you see and the rewards of reward tracks in pvp and WvW (outside of gift of battle)?
It just irks me I guess that that is a complaint, which I feel is fairly unjustified.

The story complaint is similar because even I joined too late to witness season one and the epic scarlet boss my friend always brags about at work.
I do not even see any real story elements during the fights. And barely still outside of them. How could they have made the raids have a purpose, other than raw challenging content, without a semblance of story? I am only able to picture empty boss floors with some path from one to the next like in wow raids and that is certainly dull.

However, spending time with a group of friends is the biggest reason I can think of as to why I am still raiding, still teaching others to raid. If I could get the same social experience elsewhere, and not have the frustration of dying a lot, I would take it. But to my knowledge, the only other stuff for this is either blobs or tiny groups of five people that finish something in twenty minutes and forget you exist the next. This contributed a lot to why I quit wow and Rift. Queue, dungeon quickly, leave, repeat.

So question, why do the non Raiders not complain so vehemently about all the ascended backpieces, armour skins, and content you see and the rewards of reward tracks in pvp and WvW (outside of gift of battle)?

For the most part, I have gone after most if not all of those things in the past. Personally though, I am more likely to go after items that I myself am interested in, although I fully support other players going after items they are interested in as well. I’m not really sure what your point might be here, but at least we can agree that I’m consistent.

The story complaint is similar because even I joined too late to witness season one and the epic scarlet boss my friend always brags about at work.

And if you felt it was very important to you that they add some way for you to experience that too, then I would support you in that. I understand the reasons why this would be difficult for them, but it would be pretty cool. It’s just not a personal priority to me, so I’m not likely the one to bring it up.

I do not even see any real story elements during the fights. And barely still outside of them. How could they have made the raids have a purpose, other than raw challenging content, without a semblance of story? I am only able to picture empty boss floors with some path from one to the next like in wow raids and that is certainly dull.

If they wanted the ability to say “nothing of interest to see here, it doesn’t matter if you can’t participate?” Yeah. The Queen’s Gauntlet is about as close to acceptable as they could get.

However, spending time with a group of friends is the biggest reason I can think of as to why I am still raiding, still teaching others to raid. If I could get the same social experience elsewhere, and not have the frustration of dying a lot, I would take it. But to my knowledge, the only other stuff for this is either blobs or tiny groups of five people that finish something in twenty minutes and forget you exist the next. This contributed a lot to why I quit wow and Rift. Queue, dungeon quickly, leave, repeat.

You should run guild missions. They’re pretty fun, cooperative, and so long as you can get a decent sized group together they aren’t that hard to complete. I’m trying to rebuild my guild after the mass post-raid exodus, so shoot me a holler if you need someone to do them with.

Pompeia.5483:

So question, why do the non Raiders not complain so vehemently about all the ascended backpieces, armour skins, and content you see and the rewards of reward tracks in pvp and WvW (outside of gift of battle)?
It just irks me I guess that that is a complaint, which I feel is fairly unjustified.

The story complaint is similar because even I joined too late to witness season one and the epic scarlet boss my friend always brags about at work.
I do not even see any real story elements during the fights. And barely still outside of them. How could they have made the raids have a purpose, other than raw challenging content, without a semblance of story? I am only able to picture empty boss floors with some path from one to the next like in wow raids and that is certainly dull.

However, spending time with a group of friends is the biggest reason I can think of as to why I am still raiding, still teaching others to raid. If I could get the same social experience elsewhere, and not have the frustration of dying a lot, I would take it. But to my knowledge, the only other stuff for this is either blobs or tiny groups of five people that finish something in twenty minutes and forget you exist the next. This contributed a lot to why I quit wow and Rift. Queue, dungeon quickly, leave, repeat.

If you follow my posting history, you will see that I argued against exclusivity of items and skins from the start. All these measures were taken to lure people into content they normally would not do on their own. I find it distateful and cheap in every instance, although I do wvw and sometines pvp too.
Contrary to raids, every one of these modes has an easy mode for anyone.
You suck at PvP? Cap points.
You suck at WvW? Escort caravans.
You suck in fractals? Do lvl 1 to 10, your girl or boyfriend who watched you play occasionally can probably contribute enough to a lvl 1 fractal if you have to take a biobreak or something.
I am not arguing for easy modes per se in raids, mind you. I don´t want any part of a raid, even if it would be a trip to candyland. I am arguing for taking exclusivity away from it. If you ask me, everyone who wants to do raids should get handsomly rewarded for sitting through such a torture, but not with exclusive armor.

If you are honest, gw2 is a wasteland of lost opportunities regarding story. I can understand anyone who wants to get even a tiny shred of new content when the world largely stayed static since the end of ls1.

Vinceman.4572:

2. Colin hasn’t “lost” his job. He left for reasons. You can read, just google it.

3. Anet isn’t ignoring the majority of players. The majority of players got HoT, a nice Q2-Update and will get the LS3 soon.
Raids weren’t developed while other content was paused. All three wings belong to the expansion, they just weren’t released at HoT-launch. The raiding team consists of 6 people while the overwhelming majority (more than hundred) is working on the LS3 and the next expansion.
Raids are a niche, a really really small one but with a constant playerbase. We have been demanding for content like that since 3 years and now we’ve gotten it while the huge part of the game is still not challenging at all.
So, please don’t speak about a focus on raids or anything like that if you are simply missinformed.

A little bit off topic, but from PR stand point no one is ever fired. PR would let you believe that everyone working in the company is happy and smiles all the time.
So, no matter if he was kicked out of his office or just really decided to get closer to his family, the official statement would still be about the family.
What we really know is that HoT was not universal acclaim in the community and game director leaves shortly after the launch. You can’t blame the guy for connecting the dots by saying that Colin lost his job and, for what we know, he could be right.

What is more, MO takes over and sees such a state of the game that he officially cancels the legendary production and even addresses the “half expansion” and “fighting fires” thing. Before that, just like you, I believed that raids were finished at launch and only held back a little, but, seeing how some of the promised legendaries were not even started to produce, I’m not so sure now.

About the raid team consisting on 6 people, we already know that they “borrow” people for the raid team in order to produce content. What we don’t know, how much and how often the raid team is being “assisted” by those people. The fact is, that there are way more people working on raids and we don’t know the numbers. By this logic, we might as well say that Colin produced HoT alone, only with the help of a few programers, artists or composers.

On the topic, seeing how there’s a constant stream of complaints about the raids, I’m expecting a few changes coming to the raids.

There is no “connecting the dots”, he was just coming up with something he doesn’t know. We all don’t know and so we should stop any speculation and take it for an argument that is supporting the own discussion strategy or goal.
It’s more than iniquitous, it’s cheap and not the right way to lead a proper argumentation!

You should also stop talking about “believe” because we all don’t know anything more like we are told. Of course, you can follow your own conspiracy theories but I’d rather accept the statements that sound legit and true to me instead of building something into it because I have weird reasons to do so.

And your statement about more working on raids is just plain wrong. Anet already adressed that. Sure, musicians and some other employees are connected with the raid team but that’s not what’s stopping or slowing the release of other content.
Again, please stop making things up you don’t know and speculate about things while we have clear statements from the company, ty.

Vinceman.4572:

There is no “connecting the dots”, he was just coming up with something he doesn’t know. We all don’t know and so we should stop any speculation and take it for an argument that is supporting the own discussion strategy or goal.
It’s more than iniquitous, it’s cheap and not the right way to lead a proper argumentation!

You should also stop talking about “believe” because we all don’t know anything more like we are told. Of course, you can follow your own conspiracy theories but I’d rather accept the statements that sound legit and true to me instead of building something into it because I have weird reasons to do so.

And your statement about more working on raids is just plain wrong. Anet already adressed that. Sure, musicians and some other employees are connected with the raid team but that’s not what’s stopping or slowing the release of other content.
Again, please stop making things up you don’t know and speculate about things while we have clear statements from the company, ty.

Make me!
Like it or not, forums are there for people to discuss and speculate. If you don’t like this, you should only read “Dev tracker” page.

No need to turn my words to your favour!
I’m fine with discussing and also speculations as long as they are kind of rational and well thought. But if a company said “No” several times and there are no indications that the reality is “Yes” there is no need to bring out untrue things and also pretending these untrue things were confirmed to be true only to cater to your argumentation.

Vinceman.4572:

No need to turn my words to your favour!
I’m fine with discussing and also speculations as long as they are kind of rational and well thought. But if a company said “No” several times and there are no indications that the reality is “Yes” there is no need to bring out untrue things and also pretending these untrue things were confirmed to be true only to cater to your argumentation.

What seems irrational to you? That PR tries to translate only the best to the public? Or that raid team borrows more people from other departments?
On what account did company said NO several times? And even if they did actually say something, it’s still vague enough to interpret it in many ways. What I’m saying is, contrary to your statement, even if there are YES or NOES from time to time, they still leave a huge grey area for people to discuss and speculate.

Please, for once, don’t stray off topic telling people how to discuss, I really hate when discussion goes this way.