Took me 3 runs of the dungeon to get the bug.
Future of Raids
I saw more people looking up and insulting friendly raiders than other way round
I have read way worse things in the ingame chat of farming maps like your mentioned stuff. Please don’t exaggerate that much.
Existence of other flaws doesn’t mean that flaws mentioned by him automatically disappears. Just like existence of someone who murdered people doesn’t meant that everyone must forgive and forget about person who did a robbery.
Kiijna, Xast, Satis Ironwail, Sekhaina, Shira Forgesparkle, Sfeno, Nasibi, Tegeira, Rhonwe…
25 charracters
25 charracters
I received a freaking death threat over this and you say don’t exaggerate? If you saw that in game, I’m fairly certain it would be something Anet would permaban someone for (hopefully).
Nope, they don’t.
Like I said I have seen such things several times in open world arguments and other stuff. It’s also not a thing related to GW2. Every game has such immature players. And we all know these kind of reactions are exceptions.
I’m sorry, but anyone that has been a part of any raiding game sees what raiding brings to the community. They may not want to admit it – even to themselves – but when you create divisions among players like this, you end up with a divided community.
Ok, then we should stop all farm trains asap too. Same insults, way more toxic individuals, insults way more often visible and also reported.
The direction goes the same way as with “zerker meta” in dungeons years ago. Just ridiculous.
And it’s all back to: Make your own group, learn something, become better and succeed.
Back at launch, Anet even saw it – and listed raiding as an issue with other games, promising that end game would simply be a continuation of leveling. They wanted a game that was accessible and fun for everyone – while still offering challenging content.
Somewhere along the way, they made some bad decisions to veer off of that path – I and others just want them back on it.
It is still accessible for everyone but not everyone is willing to put effort into some things. That’s the difference.
And the bigger issue is the content drought, not raids themselves. I bet if there had been a big LS3 out at the moment we wouldn’t even read posts from you in this part of the forum.
You are painting a dramatic picture which is not even existent for a second.
Took me 3 runs of the dungeon to get the bug.
(edited by Vinceman.4572)
Ok, then we should stop all farm trains asap too. Same insults, way more toxic individuals, insults way more often visible and also reported.
If you haven’t noticed, whenever toxicity in any farm trains reached any greater levels, Anet always nerfed that farm into the ground.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
You are painting a dramatic picture which is not even there for a second.
I guess it is a matter of opinion regarding what should and should not be seen as acceptable content.
I see it as extreme – and definitely enhanced since raiding came into the game – and you do not.
As Ive mentioned many times in these threads, this is an issue of degrees. There is not right or wrong, no black or white. It comes down to where we draw the line in regard to concepts such as accessibility, hardcore vs casual or what is and isn’t acceptable behavior.
I see raids in their current form creating a wide range of negative issues, from the shift in the community’s behavior to how they deliver story to creating soft barriers that simply don’t need to be there.
All of this can be fixed with a simple (hopefully) variable difficulty model – just like the ones we see in almost every other MMO offering raiding out there – as well as in the rest of the GW2 PVE experience.
And, because it needs to be said – if someone makes a death threat against someone’s family in this game and it is reported, they deserve a permanent ban from the game – even if Anet hasn’t done so in the past. That is just common decency and common sense. Arguing against that doesn’t make a bit of sense whatsoever.
Ok, then we should stop all farm trains asap too. Same insults, way more toxic individuals, insults way more often visible and also reported.
If you haven’t noticed, whenever toxicity in any farm trains reached any greater levels, Anet always nerfed that farm into the ground.
yes, because it was a toxicity in game. So far, i’ve yet to see the toxicity you’re all talking about for raids in game…it’s just a minority of player arguing over and over for both side on the official forum for me (including me).
If raids are toxic, why are they performing so well?
I don’t understand the fundamental arguments behind why this ‘toxicity’ exists. It’s an entirely optional social environment. If you know nine people who believe that the raid environment is toxic, form a regular raid group with them with the behavior that you prefer.
There are training groups, there are hardcore groups, there are casual groups. I don’t really get the arguments of toxicity preventing people from tackling the content.
Nalhadia – Kaineng
It’s much more than mere problem of toxicity hindering people from tackling the content. It’s that this toxicity spills out outside raids now, affecting even people that had no interest in doing them at all. Haven’t you noticed, that everyone that does not raid now is either unskilled, or lazy, or both, and should feel bad for it, and “git gud”? I see now that attitude everywhere. Not only in forums.
And said farm trains were also performing well, remember? It didn’t affect the toxicity they generated in the slightest.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
(edited by Astralporing.1957)
Haven’t you noticed, that everyone that does not raid now is either unskilled, or lazy, or both, and should feel bad for it, and “git gud”?
Nope. I don’t raid in GW2, or in any game at the moment, and nobody calls me unskilled or lazy. They don’t tell me that I should feel bad for not raiding and they don’t tell me to ‘git gud’.
Nalhadia – Kaineng
Haven’t you noticed, that everyone that does not raid now is either unskilled, or lazy, or both, and should feel bad for it, and “git gud”?
Nope. I don’t raid in GW2, or in any game at the moment, and nobody calls me unskilled or lazy. They don’t tell me that I should feel bad for not raiding and they don’t tell me to ‘git gud’.
Oh, come on, you yourself were the one claiming that no guild that isn’t raiding can be called succesful. If this kind of attitude has now spread so much that they are even shared by some nonraiders, it reinforces my point even more.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Haven’t you noticed, that everyone that does not raid now is either unskilled, or lazy, or both, and should feel bad for it, and “git gud”?
Nope. I don’t raid in GW2, or in any game at the moment, and nobody calls me unskilled or lazy. They don’t tell me that I should feel bad for not raiding and they don’t tell me to ‘git gud’.
Oh, come on, you yourself were the one claiming that no guild that isn’t raiding can be called succesful. If this kind of attitude has now spread so much that they are even shared by some nonraiders, it reinforces my point even more.
A general-purpose pve guild that doesn’t organize interested raiders is not successful.
How is this statement toxic?
A general-purpose pve guild that doesn’t organize interested raiders is not successful.
How is this statement toxic?
Because raids are not general-purpose pve?
Kiijna, Xast, Satis Ironwail, Sekhaina, Shira Forgesparkle, Sfeno, Nasibi, Tegeira, Rhonwe…
25 charracters
25 charracters
A general-purpose pve guild that doesn’t organize interested raiders is not successful.
How is this statement toxic?
Because raids are not general-purpose pve?
In a 500 person pve guild, they are.
And, as I repeat in every thread this is brought up, the context of that statement was a poster who was complaining that he couldn’t find people to raid with in his guild. Even though there were interested raiders. That makes a bad guild, in my opinion.
Really, toxic is such an overused term.
In a 500 person pve guild, they are.
And, as I repeat in every thread this is brought up, the context of that statement was a poster who was complaining that he couldn’t find people to raid with in his guild. Even though there were interested raiders. That makes a bad guild, in my opinion.
Really, toxic is such an overused term.
500 people in guild usually means 50-100 active players. According to gw2e stat spreading, only 44% of them tried raids once. So that means that they have 22-44 players that tried raiding (probably people with various pve skill, not some hardcore guys), and with such small group, its pretty probably that they was unable to form a quality static or find a good RL. And that’s how it ends.
Kiijna, Xast, Satis Ironwail, Sekhaina, Shira Forgesparkle, Sfeno, Nasibi, Tegeira, Rhonwe…
25 charracters
25 charracters
A general-purpose pve guild that doesn’t organize interested raiders is not successful.
How is this statement toxic?
Because raids are not general-purpose pve?
In a 500 person pve guild, they are.
And, as I repeat in every thread this is brought up, the context of that statement was a poster who was complaining that he couldn’t find people to raid with in his guild. Even though there were interested raiders. That makes a bad guild, in my opinion.
Really, toxic is such an overused term.
I agree that toxic is an overused term, but it definitely fits here. Again, look at the examples above( https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Future-of-Raids/page/2#post6237796 ) – and, if still needed, here is a link to another (REALLY NSFW) example -
This level of nastiness – and the death threat I received (attached to the earlier response in this thread) – are examples of toxic behavior. If they aren’t, then that word doesn’t apply to anything, imo.
This is a systemic problem that can be tied directly to how they chose to implement raids in this game. When you purposefully build content for a small segment of the PVE population, it will result in a segmented population.
When that segmentation is based on perceived skill or commitment levels, then you end up with part of the population feeling superior/scornful (looking down on non raiders) and another part feeling jealously (people who feel bad because they cannot experience the fights).
Neither is good for the game or the community.
(edited by Blaeys.3102)
A general-purpose pve guild that doesn’t organize interested raiders is not successful.
How is this statement toxic?
Because raids are not general-purpose pve?
In a 500 person pve guild, they are.
And, as I repeat in every thread this is brought up, the context of that statement was a poster who was complaining that he couldn’t find people to raid with in his guild. Even though there were interested raiders. That makes a bad guild, in my opinion.
Really, toxic is such an overused term.
I agree that toxic is an overused term, but it definitely fits here. Again, look at the examples above( https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Future-of-Raids/page/2#post6237796 ) – and, if still needed, here is a link to another (REALLY NSFW) example -
This level of nastiness – and the death threat I received (attached to the earlier response in this thread) are examples of toxic behavior – if they aren’t, then that word doesn’t apply to anything, imo.
This is a systemic problem that can be tied directly to how they chose to implement raids in this game. When you purposefully build content for a small segment of the PVE population, it will result in a segmented population.
When that segmentation is based on perceived skill or commitment levels, then you end up with part of the population feeling superior/scornful (looking down on non raiders) and another part feeling jealously (people who feel bad because they cannot experience the fights).
Neither is good for the game or the community.
I’m not going to defend name calling.
But your view is far more divisive.
You don’t want any story elements in raids, no matter how minor or tangential.
You don’t want anet to continue raid development (in its current form).
You want anet to devote resources to easy mode raids and other easy content.
Compare this to the typical raider view.
Continue to develop raids as is.
Continue to develop other content, preferably faster.
While you don’t deserve the name-calling, people understandably get upset when you seek to destroy the content they enjoy.
I repeat myself again but it’s needed:
People are like this in fractals.
People are like this in dungeons.
People are like this in open world.
People are like this in WvW.
People are like this in PvP. (Oh yes, they hell are! ^^)
People are like this in achievement groups, for example LS2 achievements.
Don’t attach “toxicity” or insulting players to raids. That isn’t true at all. You find such players everywhere and definitely not contentrated around raids.
In my opinion the raid playerbase is much more helpful with build hints, gear issues, tactics than any other playerbase. I’ve never learned more than from speedrunners, highly-addicted dungeon and fractal players and raiders.
Even in open world chat you get at least one ironic, sarcastic or a useless answer if asking a question.
Took me 3 runs of the dungeon to get the bug.
I repeat myself again but it’s needed:
People are like this in fractals.
People are like this in dungeons.
People are like this in open world.
People are like this in WvW.
People are like this in PvP. (Oh yes, they hell are! ^^)
People are like this in achievement groups, for example LS2 achievements.
Don’t attach “toxicity” or insulting players to raids. That isn’t true at all. You find such players everywhere and definitely not contentrated around raids.
In my opinion the raid playerbase is much more helpful with build hints, gear issues, tactics than any other playerbase. I’ve never learned more than from speedrunners, highly-addicted dungeon and fractal players and raiders.
Even in open world chat you get at least one ironic, sarcastic or a useless answer if asking a question.
That is why I included examples of the toxicity in my replies. Yes, a bit of this existed before, but never at this level. You can choose to not believe that or not see it, but I do.
Which makes it a matter of opinion. I realize that. That is why it is important to have the conversation openly on the forums. So that the community – and ANet – see both sides of the issue.
But your view is far more divisive.
I’m not advocating removing anything from the game. What I am advocating is a compromise that removes – to a degree – the segmentation of content that raids have brought to the game.
And I don’t think that anything I have said is even close to the level of division illustrated in the examples I posted – one of which, again, is a death threat (how do you get more divisive than that?).
I respect when people argue civilly, which you yourself tend to do most of the time. I do think your comment about “bad guild” was in poor taste and a byproduct of a raiding community mentality, but I do not think you yourself intended to be insulting. You know how to argue civilly – and I look forward to continuing the conversation with people like yourself.
However, that isn’t going to stop me from shining a light on those who – as a result of the same raiding community mentality – take it way too far. And, unfortunately, we will only start seeing more and more of those kinds of people – both in game and out – imo.
And I realize that people on both sides take it too far. It doesn’t change the fact that it is a byproduct of raids in their current form. Reacting out of jealousy creates a negative environment that isn’t as bad as the one created by those reacting out of derision or scorn, but it still creates a less friendly environment in game – one that Anet can help fix by adjusting the source of the division to be more open to different types of players.
(edited by Blaeys.3102)
Dude, I have seen such things in every other game and with way harder “verbal fights”. And it has always been existed at this level. This level isn’t even high.
Again, you are painting a dramatic picture which is non-existent.
Took me 3 runs of the dungeon to get the bug.
Dude, I have seen such things in every other game and with way harder “verbal fights”. And it has always been existed at this level. This level isn’t even high.
Again, you are painting a dramatic picture which is non-existent.
Agreed, other games are much worse – which is part of my point.
Let’s look at how we can keep GW2 from becoming as toxic as those games. My belief, after years of playing all of those games, is that it comes from unnecessary division in the playerbase. Segmenting players based on skill/commitment level and giving them their own area of the game has a negative segmenting effect on the community. All of those other games you reference are exhibit A (and my examples would be exhibit B ).
Raids are not toxic in and of themselves. It is the “this is where I get to play and you cant unless you do exactly what I do” mentality.
Variable difficulty raids would retain the difficulty, but remove the segmentation, which, again, is the root of the issue.
Will negativity persist in the game? Of course it will. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t look for ways to lessen it and keep the scorn/jealousy that infect other games out of GW2 as much as possible.
(edited by Blaeys.3102)
Ok, then let’s delete PvP first.
Took me 3 runs of the dungeon to get the bug.
Ok, then let’s delete PvP first.
This isn’t a discussion about PvP – because there is no real solution there. The competitive nature of that content is critical to the success of the game mode. That isn’t true in PVE.
And, once again, no one is talking about deleting anything.
Haven’t you noticed, that everyone that does not raid now is either unskilled, or lazy, or both, and should feel bad for it, and “git gud”? I see now that attitude everywhere. Not only in forums.
You only see that when those who do not raid blame the raiding community (or the so called elitist) for their failing with raiding.
There is a small group of people in the community – both here and on reddit – who are intent on derailing this conversation. They do so through personal attacks on other posters, condescending language about anyone posting something they don’t fully agree with (and often at non-raiders as a group).
And, it is the same people over and over. One of them even came after me in game to belittle me through personal attacks.
And, yes, a death threat is an example of toxicity. As is the namecalling in the reddit post I linked. I’m not making this stuff up – and having someone try to shame me into not posting or continuing the discussion (which I try to do very civilly as much as possible) is just a further example of the very toxicity I’m talking about.
I would like to get past it. There are a few people on these forums (Absurdo, Vinceman, Issic and many others) who are willing to have a civil discussion about this topic, even though we obviously disagree.
To others, please stop with the personal attacks – both publically and through private messages. It adds nothing to the conversation – and really only serves to prove my point about the continued toxicity raiding brings to the community.
Uhhm…
And, because it needs to be said – if someone makes a death threat against someone’s family in this game and it is reported, they deserve a permanent ban from the game – even if Anet hasn’t done so in the past. That is just common decency and common sense. Arguing against that doesn’t make a bit of sense whatsoever.
And I stand by that – if it happened in game, it is worthy of a permaban (and I think Anet would agree).
What I meant was I wasn’t calling for permabanning anyone specific – not even the person that made the reddit post I linked.
My original point was that it is very hard for people to post in these types of threads now because of the toxicity – and looking at the examples Ive seen the past week, I think I have proven that point.
(edited by Blaeys.3102)
Toxicity or not, Answer why do you care? Beyond GW2 and into real life you are going to meet “toxic” people, Again you are giving the exact same choice even in real life itself! ignore and move on! Pick who you game with / Pick who you hang out with.
The conversation in this thread is about the future of raids, So I will tab into it
Raids don’t need an easy mode, Raids as is are already in “medium-easy” mode, Strats, comps, non-meta builds you name it have all been made. The material is there, If you want to learn it yourself? Well then find 9 others to do it, like everyone else did.
The future of raids should be the maintain the current level of difficulty, And keeping on track with the extra challenging AP challenge mote to make it harder, However they should extend it beyond that and allow you to earn more reward (weekly, same as a normal rewards) by doing the harder version.
I will even add, As anet themselves has posted on these forums, If any raid related story is ever relevant to story beyond the raid itself, they will make the information accessible to everyone.
Toxicity or not, Answer why do you care? Beyond GW2 and into real life you are going to meet “toxic” people, Again you are giving the exact same choice even in real life itself! ignore and move on! Pick who you game with / Pick who you hang out with.
The conversation in this thread is about the future of raids, So I will tab into it
Raids don’t need an easy mode, Raids as is are already in “medium-easy” mode, Strats, comps, non-meta builds you name it have all been made. The material is there, If you want to learn it yourself? Well then find 9 others to do it, like everyone else did.
The future of raids should be the maintain the current level of difficulty, And keeping on track with the extra challenging AP challenge mote to make it harder, However they should extend it beyond that and allow you to earn more reward (weekly, same as a normal rewards) by doing the harder version.
I will even add, As anet themselves has posted on these forums, If any raid related story is ever relevant to story beyond the raid itself, they will make the information accessible to everyone.
Thank you for stepping back and making a very well reasoned and thoughtful response about this topic.
You make some very good points. In fact, you and I agree on one thing completely – Anet should definitely continue to make hardcore versions of the raid. I even like the idea of making them harder through motes/challenges/etc for those who have already mastered them.
Where we differ in opinion is when we talk about opening the raid up in the other direction.
Along with a challenge mote, what if they offered a “training” mote (or story mote, but I think training would be a better use of dev resources) – that groups could trigger to see a toned down version of the fight (with SIGNIFICANTLY lower rewards)?
I think that would fix the issues I have with story, impact on community and accessibility – as well as potentially get more people involved in raids – including many who would take the step past the training mote to become full fledged members of the harder core raiding community. That would give people like you (and me too, believe it or not) a deeper pool of people to raid with as the game mode thrives into the future (which is definitely something I want to see).
Oh, come on, you yourself were the one claiming that no guild that isn’t raiding can be called succesful. If this kind of attitude has now spread so much that they are even shared by some nonraiders, it reinforces my point even more.
Er, no. If a 1000 member guild couldn’t organize an RP pizza party I’d say they’re just as unsuccessful as the 1000 member guild that can’t organize a raid.
That you’ve begun to rely on these absurd misinterpretations speaks volumes to the strength of your arguments.
Nalhadia – Kaineng
Oh, come on, you yourself were the one claiming that no guild that isn’t raiding can be called succesful. If this kind of attitude has now spread so much that they are even shared by some nonraiders, it reinforces my point even more.
Er, no. If a 1000 member guild couldn’t organize an RP pizza party I’d say they’re just as unsuccessful as the 1000 member guild that can’t organize a raid.
Why? Not having 10 people that might want to do some specific ingame activity speaks nothing about guild’s success, unless that activity was either absolutely core to the game, or something the guild advertises as their focus. At the most it can only tell us how popular said activity is in general.
That you’ve begun to rely on these absurd misinterpretations speaks volumes to the strength of your arguments.
That you yourself do not see how much that one quote says about your outlook about raids only shows how deep the problem is.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
While I’m not sure I would call them the best content ever created for the game, I agree that they are very well done – and, as you note, that creates a problem.
Endgame in this game has never been about raiding. In fact, they made a huge point early on of the fact that they wanted endgame and leveling to feel pretty much the same – they didn’t want people to suddenly start doing something new at endgame that felt like a different game – and that was a great goal.
The idea that raiding has be only for the elite or dedicated players is contrived and patently false. They need to go back to focusing on content that meets the need of the community as a whole (and raids could do this with tiered difficulty) – and then make sure there is sufficient challenge for the varied audiences in game.
Also, you only quoted half the problem. The jealousy on one side is actually overshadowed by the bigger problem – that raids create a class of players that begin to look down on the rest of the game – to belittle and deride those who don’t raid. Even your response here makes it seem as if you are somehow proud that people are jealous of the experience you have access to. That really isn’t good for the game.
Raiding in its current form creates barriers in the community and nastiness that have no place in the GW2 we played for the first few years. Just look at the examples I provided – and definitely at the message from reddit I attached.
I see that you yourself are stuck in a mindset about jealousy and elitism. However I stated very clearly that the jealousy is not the problem, it’s a symptom, at the root the problem is that raids are the best content in the game. For those that do not like raiding the alternative content is stale and of a lesser quality. These people need better content that satisfies their interests and needs.
I simply do not think the tier system is the way to go. I think each of the current content formats has qualities that relate better to a certain audience. Satisfying the community as a whole, for me means giving each of the formats quality content with cool exclusive rewards for the target audience.
Personally I put great value at unique, interesting and different content. The tiered system for me is boring and repetitive. As such I fundamentally disagree.
Not having 10 people that might want to do some specific ingame activity speaks nothing about guild’s success
No. No no no. No. We’re not talking about how many people in the guild actually want to raid.
The number of people who want to do raids in a 1000 active-member guild is possibly not 10. We don’t know how many it is. It could be 1, it could be 1000. (It can’t be 0 because we know the poster was interested in raids, but that’s not really relevant)
We could make the case that the number of people interested in raiding in this guild is <10, but that’s extremely unlikely to be the case. Guilds of that size are almost always PvX megaguilds; they are a general sample of the population. It’s perfectly reasonable to assume that because of this, the guild experiences a similar uptake rate in raids as the rest of the game. The low figure for this is 5%.
Taking the assumptions that I’ve laid out above and extrapolating from that; assuming that a guild of 1000 members follows the general population (we have no information that would indicate otherwise), there are 5% of them interested in raiding (therefore 50 raiders) yet the poster could not find one other person to raid with. With these assumptions, how could that be?
1. The person is lazy.
2. The guild does not have the communication infrastructure to connect its raiders, either as a core communication system or piggybacking on other infrastructure.
3. The guild is an extreme statistical anomaly and has 81% less raiders than the general population.
Number 1 is rude, number 3 is unlikely, that leaves number 2. This is literally the entire thing. That’s all. We don’t care about how many people in the guild actually want to raid because we don’t have that much information, we can only assume it follows general population trends. The guild is failing to connect the players that are in what is a statistical extreme likelihood. That is why I’m happy to call it unsuccessful because connecting players to do content should be the goal of any guild; as a PvX guild, it should be connecting players for all forms of content.
That you yourself do not see how much that one quote says about your outlook about raids only shows how deep the problem is.
Personally I would rather you actually listen to what I explicitly say about my viewpoints on raids over the more than 50 pages that we’ve now had in discussions about easy modes in raids rather than your vague interpretations.
Like seriously, it’s all out there. There’s no need to read between the lines here, I’ve laid it all out pretty explicitly.
Nalhadia – Kaineng
(edited by Sarrs.4831)
Someone on Reddit pasted a quote from an article Rubi Bayer wrote back in 2012 ( https://www.engadget.com/2012/01/23/flameseeker-chronicles-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-endgame/ ) that read as follows:
‘No endgame/no raiding is perceived by a lot of people as “nothing left to do once you reach level cap.” It’s understandable because we’ve been taught to think that way by a lot of developers over the years. Once you get to the end, that’s where the really good stuff is, so hurry!
There might be something epic at the end; we don’t know. The development team might go nuts at some point in the future and decide to bring Bubbles out of the shadows as a 250-man instanced raid. We don’t know. We can speculate until the cows come home, but (say it with me) we don’t know. Until then, let’s just appreciate what Jon said. ArenaNet doesn’t want to give us a game that completely and fundamentally changes once you reach endgame. If the team did that, it would mean that once you reach endgame, either you do not have the game you paid for in the first place or you do not have the game you paid for until you reach endgame. I don’t know about you, but neither of those options is appealing to me. I’ll take the entertainment I paid for right out of the gate, thank you!’
This hit home for me. It reminded me of why I bought GW2 and fell in love with the game in the first place. The idea that the entire game is end game – that the raiding model from other games simply isn’t needed to instill a sense of accomplishment and fun.
It really feels like Anet has forgotten why a lot of people left those other games to come here – or why so many non MMO players decided this would be their first. Somewhere along the way, they stopped trying to do something new and decided to copy/paste the same tired end game every one of those other games uses.
I’m tired of fighting against the tide – of trying to regain a little of that amazing game we had in those first years – but I’m not going to stop, because I still think it is worth the effort. I can only hope that Anet isn’t so jaded or worried about the next expansion that they ignore these pleas. We need to know that the spirit of the game showcased in the quotes above and that we saw early on still drive the game’s development. We need to know that community and an open inviting game are still important to them.
Raids can still be a part of that picture, but this stagnant, stale and uninspired model they are using goes against everything they said in the early days – and really feels like they have just given up and committed themselves to being another me-too in the MMO space. With the way they have implemented them, they are doing exactly what they said they would not – fundamentally change the way people play at endgame. Worse, they are segmenting the community in much the same way we see in all of those other MMOs.
I know that sounds harsh, but it’s something they need to hear.
Someone on Reddit pasted a quote from an article Rubi Bayer wrote back in 2012 ( https://www.engadget.com/2012/01/23/flameseeker-chronicles-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-endgame/ ) that read as follows:
‘No endgame/no raiding is perceived by a lot of people as “nothing left to do once you reach level cap.” It’s understandable because we’ve been taught to think that way by a lot of developers over the years. Once you get to the end, that’s where the really good stuff is, so hurry!
There might be something epic at the end; we don’t know. The development team might go nuts at some point in the future and decide to bring Bubbles out of the shadows as a 250-man instanced raid. We don’t know. We can speculate until the cows come home, but (say it with me) we don’t know. Until then, let’s just appreciate what Jon said. ArenaNet doesn’t want to give us a game that completely and fundamentally changes once you reach endgame. If the team did that, it would mean that once you reach endgame, either you do not have the game you paid for in the first place or you do not have the game you paid for until you reach endgame. I don’t know about you, but neither of those options is appealing to me. I’ll take the entertainment I paid for right out of the gate, thank you!’
This hit home for me. It reminded me of why I bought GW2 and fell in love with the game in the first place. The idea that the entire game is end game – that the raiding model from other games simply isn’t needed to instill a sense of accomplishment and fun.
It really feels like Anet has forgotten why a lot of people left those other games to come here – or why so many non MMO players decided this would be their first. Somewhere along the way, they stopped trying to do something new and decided to copy/paste the same tired end game every one of those other games uses.
I’m tired of fighting against the tide – of trying to regain a little of that amazing game we had in those first years – but I’m not going to stop, because I still think it is worth the effort. I can only hope that Anet isn’t so jaded or worried about the next expansion that they ignore these pleas. We need to know that the spirit of the game showcased in the quotes above and that we saw early on still drive the game’s development. We need to know that community and an open inviting game are still important to them.
Raids can still be a part of that picture, but this stagnant, stale and uninspired model they are using goes against everything they said in the early days – and really feels like they have just given up and committed themselves to being another me-too in the MMO space. With the way they have implemented them, they are doing exactly what they said they would not – fundamentally change the way people play at endgame. Worse, they are segmenting the community in much the same way we see in all of those other MMOs.
I know that sounds harsh, but it’s something they need to hear.
I’m not sure what argument you’re trying to make here. I think that you want more content like open world and world bosses.
Fine. Most raiders are ok with Anet developing this content.
But here’s a harsh truth from the other side. After 3 years, I don’t want a boss I can 1111 to death. It’s just too easy. I enjoyed that when I started, but not anymore.
Really all I do is raid. Some fractals and dungeons sprinkled in, but not really.
Raids will eventually get stale. As all content does. And then I’ll take a break or just quit.
I’m sure there are other players like me.
What I don’t get is why you want to waste developer resources on content we already have. During the biggest content drought in Guild wars 2.
Make dungeons. Make fractals. Make living world. But please, have it be something new. In game, raids are not nearly as divisive as you put them to be. There are tons of groups at all skill levels doing them.
Just stopping in to tell you all that I have been reading the drama.. got nothing to add to this tho.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
Someone on Reddit pasted a quote from an article Rubi Bayer wrote back in 2012 ( https://www.engadget.com/2012/01/23/flameseeker-chronicles-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-endgame/ ) that read as follows:
‘No endgame/no raiding is perceived by a lot of people as “nothing left to do once you reach level cap.” It’s understandable because we’ve been taught to think that way by a lot of developers over the years. Once you get to the end, that’s where the really good stuff is, so hurry!
There might be something epic at the end; we don’t know. The development team might go nuts at some point in the future and decide to bring Bubbles out of the shadows as a 250-man instanced raid. We don’t know. We can speculate until the cows come home, but (say it with me) we don’t know. Until then, let’s just appreciate what Jon said. ArenaNet doesn’t want to give us a game that completely and fundamentally changes once you reach endgame. If the team did that, it would mean that once you reach endgame, either you do not have the game you paid for in the first place or you do not have the game you paid for until you reach endgame. I don’t know about you, but neither of those options is appealing to me. I’ll take the entertainment I paid for right out of the gate, thank you!’
This hit home for me. It reminded me of why I bought GW2 and fell in love with the game in the first place. The idea that the entire game is end game – that the raiding model from other games simply isn’t needed to instill a sense of accomplishment and fun.
It really feels like Anet has forgotten why a lot of people left those other games to come here – or why so many non MMO players decided this would be their first. Somewhere along the way, they stopped trying to do something new and decided to copy/paste the same tired end game every one of those other games uses.
I’m tired of fighting against the tide – of trying to regain a little of that amazing game we had in those first years – but I’m not going to stop, because I still think it is worth the effort. I can only hope that Anet isn’t so jaded or worried about the next expansion that they ignore these pleas. We need to know that the spirit of the game showcased in the quotes above and that we saw early on still drive the game’s development. We need to know that community and an open inviting game are still important to them.
Raids can still be a part of that picture, but this stagnant, stale and uninspired model they are using goes against everything they said in the early days – and really feels like they have just given up and committed themselves to being another me-too in the MMO space. With the way they have implemented them, they are doing exactly what they said they would not – fundamentally change the way people play at endgame. Worse, they are segmenting the community in much the same way we see in all of those other MMOs.
I know that sounds harsh, but it’s something they need to hear.
You do realise most of the segmented games you are talking about do in fact focus mainly on raiding and have implemented a tiered raid system?
If we want better open world stuff, create better open world maps. If we want a mixture of difficulties among raid bosses create different bosses. It keeps things interesting, the tiered system never worked for me.
You do realise most of the segmented games you are talking about do in fact focus mainly on raiding and have implemented a tiered raid system?
If we want better open world stuff, create better open world maps. If we want a mixture of difficulties among raid bosses create different bosses. It keeps things interesting, the tiered system never worked for me.
The point is that ArenaNet is better than what we got with this raid. They have a history of turning MMO systems on their head – making the inaccessible accessible – and still fun.
Yet, now they are implementing the same tired model and concept they said they never would. Where is the creative approach? Where is the unique GW2 spin on raids?
Raiding as it is now is not well received by the majority of players (that is my opinion, btw, but it is based on what I see in game talking to people) – and, even if they don’t post here, there is a good bit of animosity toward them. That is because they simply do not fit with GW2 – they are a drastic break from how the rest of the game is presented and played.
I agree with people who say new content is better than retrofitting old, but at the same time, I believe future raids need to take this into consideration. Anet needs to use the same level of creativity they did at launch (and when coming up with new systems like elite specs or mastery lines) to create a more open raiding experience that fits with the rest of the game (as they stated was the goal before launch) – while still finding a way to offer the optional challenge level people desire.
I don’t care if it’s tiered difficulties, challenge/training/story motes or some new creative concept that seems crazy at first – it needs to happen.
They are better than what they have produced.
(edited by Blaeys.3102)
Raiding as it is now is not well received by the majority of players (that is my opinion, btw, but it is based on what I see in game talking to people) – and, even if they don’t post here, there is a good bit of animosity toward them.
I see quite the opposite, especially considering the rather strict limitations created by the combat system of GW2.
Warning! This post may contain traces of irony, sarcasm and peanuts.
There is no loyalty without betrayal. -Ann Smiley
There is no loyalty without betrayal. -Ann Smiley
Raiding as it is now is not well received by the majority of players (that is my opinion, btw, but it is based on what I see in game talking to people) – and, even if they don’t post here, there is a good bit of animosity toward them.
Not well received because those people can’t find a group or guild, got nothing to do with the encounters or story or whatever in the instance.
RP enthusiast
Raiding as it is now is not well received by the majority of players (that is my opinion, btw, but it is based on what I see in game talking to people) – and, even if they don’t post here, there is a good bit of animosity toward them.
Not well received because those people can’t find a group or guild, got nothing to do with the encounters or story or whatever in the instance.
I agree. The problem is not the mechanical design of the raids, which are well done.
It is an accessibility and overarching design issue. And one I think they need to fix before starting development on any new raids. They need to use some of the amazing creativity and new MMO thinking we saw in so many areas at launch to make raiding a true cohesive part of the GW2 experience.
Raiding as it is now is not well received by the majority of players (that is my opinion, btw, but it is based on what I see in game talking to people) – and, even if they don’t post here, there is a good bit of animosity toward them.
Not well received because those people can’t find a group or guild, got nothing to do with the encounters or story or whatever in the instance.
I agree. The problem is not the mechanical design of the raids, which are well done.
It is an accessibility and overarching design issue. And one I think they need to fix before starting development on any new raids. They need to use some of the amazing creativity and new MMO thinking we saw in so many areas at launch to make raiding a true cohesive part of the GW2 experience.
What is stopping would-be raiders from raiding?
I get the feeling most of the complainers just don’t like raids. That’s ok. I don’t like wvw. But that hardly means it’s not accessible. Same with raids.
Maybe I add something to discussion. This will be long one.
Back before HoT pve endgame looked like this – you get 80lv, start crafting/buying exo gear and start doing dungeons and in some time fractals. Some did it for cash to buy legendary weapons, some to buy gear to flush it in mystic WC to get again legendary weapons . Or just buy some rare cool skins so your main and alts looked rare and cool. In 1-1.5h or less with zerk group of 5, you could get …I don’t remember 20 gold? Then shovels happened.
I was in different group – I wanted achievements points, rare titles and such. So i did a lot of different things, with a plan (when and how I do this and that) and tried to be good at them to get those pve, pvp, wvw titles. I was so happy that did most LS2 ap’s alone (or maybe with help of Dulfy site). 2 years I played like that and I was happy. When I was bored and there wasn’t anything to do I grinded legendary weapon. Yup I made Sunrise because I was bored.
Then HoT was announced . I expected so much things – new ap’s, skins and armours…new world boss like triple trouble. Elite Specialisations look like a grate thing to start play this game different and fresh. I wanted so much to test rev in dungeons…
And Hot happened…with maps made in sliverwaste’s fashion, with meta events you don’t care about. Why should I put any effort for 2 sad armor sets and 2 sets of weapons. Why should grind or struggle with collections and HoT achievements for horrible amount of time FOR F….. 3 or 1 AP?! Ok HoT maps are dragging me down so let’s go and get some new tasty legendary weapons…and we know all what happened…
In summary HoT MURDRED old PVE’rs END-GAME, DID’NT HAVE ANY NEW ONE and mega ultra boring chest farms were still going and going.
And raids happened. And I say to myself at lunch of 1st wing – Hey, it’s looks like dungeons, it feels similar, it have exclusive legendary armor and there are tons of achievement’s there . I can buy ASCNEDED GEAR THERE! AND THERE ARE NEW skins there! Spirit Vale, just one wing has 91 (compere that verdant brink boring ap’s) ready to fight for. This must be my pve endgame here. It feel like dungeon or fractal so i need to call my friends, make a team and have great gw 2 TS playtime. But I was WRONG. It was much harder then anything before. I wiped with my friends and guildmates to get used to mechanics and it dragged on and on. It’s was horrible to get 10 ppl to play at the same time and most of the time we have to do it in middle of night. When raid fewer started I didn’t almost sleep and I had to still go to work. And people where starting to don’t care and lose interest…or were just too tired like me. PVP leagues happened and kinda worked better for my busy life so I left 90% pve content and raids.
What I learned in that days that RAIDS ARE NOT PVE. Nothing you can compere it from pre HoT days or new instanced content BUT 100% PVE’ers feel like it cause THERE IS NO END-GAME in HoT. RAIDS has so good rewards that makes anything else in HoT like pure garbage. WVW or PVP don’t care for loot but PVE is all about it and HoT KILLED PVE ENDGAME.
Because of that I don’t believe that LS3 will fix this mess. True loot that PVE part of community want’s is in raids that is different play mode that wasn’t made for them.
And I don’t believe that story mode or easy mode or solo raid mode will change anything either. I have seen so many times with stupid dungeons that pugs group’s had problems with 5 man team’s…so it would be just horrible with 10 man nerfed raids even if it was again full zerk meta or leave. People will still cry that it’s too hard and mistake it’s difficultly with horrible struggle to get 10 people who can do this regularly to be good at it. I agree with WoodenPotatoes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rovutU4XnE
IS It normal for guys to have access to in game content by searching REDDIT or GW 2 Forums just to get in training runs!? Maybe some of you had luck to be in right guild or knew right people and had time from start but for me after playing only pvp seasons to this day THIS IS ONLY WAY GET IN RAIDS. So I ask -WHY THIS HAD TO BE 10 MAN CONTENT.
As usually I regret you had to read my awful English. I hope some of you survive that and read it.
Was depressed ele…now depressed druid
Kawaleria (KW)
Kawaleria (KW)
(edited by Mr Godlike.6098)
What is stopping would-be raiders from raiding?
The organizational/preparational part, mostly. Most players are simply not willing to let game dictate their lifestyle or friends. And raids are very uncompromising on that part. Unlike WvW that you brought up.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
What is stopping would-be raiders from raiding?
The organizational/preparational part, mostly. Most players are simply not willing to let game dictate their lifestyle or friends. And raids are very uncompromising on that part. Unlike WvW that you brought up.
LFM VG learning run
LFM VG exp
LFG VG; <insert class here>
Bam, I’m a genius.
But seriously, there are so many solutions to get into raiding if you want to.
Plus, WvW and map metas present a different kind of organizational “challenge.” For WvW, you need to play on peak hours and run with your server to make progress. For map metas, you are bound to a timer.
Honestly, this excuse seems kinda weak.
My main reason to not play raids is that I indeed don´t like the format.
They probably are accessible and not undefeatable.
But there are indeed other reasons too:
*You can leave wvw or world events at any time with no consequences for anyone.
*The commitment to play pvp requires 15 minutes of your time maximum, then you can step away from the keyboard if you want.
*Meta. If people like it this way and the raid is designed for this meta ok, more power to you. does not mean that I have to put money in the hand to change my armor and learn the rotation. Effort vs Reward vs playing experience simply does not cut it here for me.
*Farm. Like it or not, you have to farm bosses for legendary armor, making it more of a glorified open world boss run for you and your friends if you ask me.
If the format itself would interest me, I would probably enter raids. But I personally don´t see a viable reason why I should relearn my characters just to enter another grindy collection.
Edit: Of course you can memorize a boss in and out and do it over and over again to get your collection without being stuck for hours in raids. But for tihs you must find people who are willing to rotate you out after the boss you know and invite someone else, and that seems a little bit far fetched.
(edited by Torolan.5816)
I agree with WoodenPotatoes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rovutU4XnE
I don’t want to sound rude or so but you haven’t understood the intention of his video at all!
Took me 3 runs of the dungeon to get the bug.
What is stopping would-be raiders from raiding?
The organizational/preparational part, mostly. Most players are simply not willing to let game dictate their lifestyle or friends. And raids are very uncompromising on that part. Unlike WvW that you brought up.
LFM VG learning run
LFM VG exp
LFG VG; <insert class here>Bam, I’m a genius.
Seeing as you have completely missed a point, you sure are.
But seriously, there are so many solutions to get into raiding if you want to.
Yes, and all of them require you to let game dictate your lifestyle and/or friends. Or be extremely lucky (by being the person that already has the correct lifestyle and friends).
For WvW, you need to play on peak hours and run with your server to make progress.
No. For your server to make progress. You can make progress anytime. May be slower, but it will be there. Skirmishing and off-peak coverages are still a major point of WvW.
For map metas, you are bound to a timer.
Yes. If you haven’t noticed, that was the main problem with HoT metas, that the april patch partially helped with. Problem so big, that this patch ended up being necessary.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
(edited by Astralporing.1957)
I repeat myself again but it’s needed:
People are like this in fractals.
People are like this in dungeons.
People are like this in open world.
People are like this in WvW.
People are like this in PvP. (Oh yes, they hell are! ^^)
People are like this in achievement groups, for example LS2 achievements.
Don’t attach “toxicity” or insulting players to raids. That isn’t true at all. You find such players everywhere and definitely not contentrated around raids.
In my opinion the raid playerbase is much more helpful with build hints, gear issues, tactics than any other playerbase. I’ve never learned more than from speedrunners, highly-addicted dungeon and fractal players and raiders.
Even in open world chat you get at least one ironic, sarcastic or a useless answer if asking a question.That is why I included examples of the toxicity in my replies. Yes, a bit of this existed before, but never at this level. You can choose to not believe that or not see it, but I do.
Which makes it a matter of opinion. I realize that. That is why it is important to have the conversation openly on the forums. So that the community – and ANet – see both sides of the issue.
Whether rudeness has increased due to raids or not is likely very much a matter of personal experience. I can say with certainty that I have seen far fewer complaints on this board about exclusion and rudeness than I used to back in the heyday of dungeons.
Also, Vinceman raises an important point that imo needs to be pointed to and expanded on.
“In my opinion the raid playerbase is much more helpful with build hints, gear issues, tactics than any other playerbase.”
This stands to reason. If someone is offering to teach, or taking on guild members and getting them on board, or even just discussing the encounters, why wouldn’t they want to be open and/or helpful?
I can think of two scenarios where that openness might not be there:
- Someone joined a group while not meeting posted requirements.
- Someone has joined a group that offers to take on less or inexperienced raiders, but is not open to the advice being offered by the people sponsoring the group.
In either of those cases, I know where the rudeness started.
I agree with WoodenPotatoes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rovutU4XnE
I don’t want to sound rude or so but you haven’t understood the intention of his video at all!
Oh I did but I wrote about my OWN opinion about 10 man content^^.
Was depressed ele…now depressed druid
Kawaleria (KW)
Kawaleria (KW)
What is stopping would-be raiders from raiding?
The organizational/preparational part, mostly. Most players are simply not willing to let game dictate their lifestyle or friends. And raids are very uncompromising on that part. Unlike WvW that you brought up.
LFM VG learning run
LFM VG exp
LFG VG; <insert class here>Bam, I’m a genius.
Seeing as you have completely missed a point, you sure are.
But seriously, there are so many solutions to get into raiding if you want to.
Yes, and all of them require you to let game dictate your lifestyle and/or friends. Or be extremely lucky (by being the person that already has the correct lifestyle and friends).
For WvW, you need to play on peak hours and run with your server to make progress.
No. For your server to make progress. You can make progress anytime. May be slower, but it will be there. Skirmishing and off-peak coverages are still a major point of WvW.
For map metas, you are bound to a timer.
Yes. If you haven’t noticed, that was the main problem with HoT metas, that the april patch partially helped with. Problem so big, that this patch ended up being necessary.
Can you summarize your point in a couple of sentences? I am missing something here.
There are a lot of ways to get into raids.
I don’t see how it’s a “lifestyle,” any more than pugging other content would be.
If you don’t like raids, fair enough. That’s not an argument for easy mode raids or the elimination of raids.
Can you summarize your point in a couple of sentences? I am missing something here.
If you want to reliably raid, you really need to have a known group of players you can group with. Especially if you only start learning. LFGing just means you have to start everything from beginning every time. Sometimes it might work, most of the time it won’t. It may be different once you get into the really restrictive LFGs category, but those can hardly be useful for you when you don’t fulfill the requirements yourself.
So, either you already have such a group available in your guild(s), or you need to look for such a guild. First is a function of luck – some people will have it, most will not. Second requires you to make friends based on gameplay needs – so, “let the game dictate your friends”.
Next, you need to get those people together. The lower the pool of available players, the greater time requirements on each of them. That means, that unless that pool is really big, you must schedule in advance – and that at least some of those players might need to change their RL activities to allow for it. It may not be so strictly necessary once you have raids on farm status (as the time needed for both preparations and actual fight gets shorter and shorter), but is pretty much unavoidable during the learning process.
Basically, if you have some friends, you can almost always just log in, say that you want to do a dungeon, get a group and just do it whenever it may happen. If you want to do raids with your friends, and some key people from your group are offline due to some RL stuff, then that’s it. You won’t be able to replace that tank, or healer, with a phone call to one of the guildies that are generally inactive, but can log in when someone needs a 5th for something. They won’t be experienced enough. And they won’t likely want to participate in hours long training session first. That’s even assuming, of course, that you yourself would have those hours available for this purpose.
Again, not a problem if you are in a big guild with strong raiders’ representation (but then, i really doubt everyone in such a guild are really your friends. And if they are, see the “luck” part).
There are a lot of ways to get into raids.
Not when those “solutions” are the very problems preventing people from raiding in the first place.
If you don’t like raids, fair enough. That’s not an argument for easy mode raids or the elimination of raids.
It’s not raids themselves i dislike, but the social demands/pressure they create if you want to participate in them.
Easy mode, in my case, would solve that issue. So would, most likely, the 5-man same difficulty version.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
(edited by Astralporing.1957)