Guild Wars 2

Astralporing.1957:

Absurdo.8309:

Can you summarize your point in a couple of sentences? I am missing something here.

If you want to reliably raid, you really need to have a known group of players you can group with. Especially if you only start learning. LFGing just means you have to start everything from beginning every time.

So, either you already have such a group available in your guild(s), or you need to look for such a guild. First is a function of luck – some people will have it, most will not. Second requires you to make friends based on gameplay needs – so, “let the game dictate your friends”.

Next, you need to get those people together. The lower the pool of available players, the greater time requirements on each of them. That means, that unless that pool is really big, you must schedule in advance – and that at least some of those players might need to change their RL activities to allow for it. It may not be so strictly necessary once you have raids on farm status (as the time needed for both preparations and actual fight gets shorter and shorter), but is pretty much unavoidable during the learning process.

Basically, if you have some friends, you can almost always just log in, say that you want to do a dungeon, get a group and just do it whenever it may happen. If you want to do raids with your friends, and some key people from your group are offline due to some RL stuff, then that’s it. You won’t be able to replace that tank, or healer, with a phone call to one of the guildies that are generally inactive, but can log in when someone needs a 5th for something. They won’t be experienced enough.

Again, not a problem if you are in a big guild with strong raiders’ representation (but then, i really doubt everyone in such a guild are really your friends).

Absurdo.8309:

There are a lot of ways to get into raids.

Not when those “solutions” are the very problems preventing people from raiding in the first place.

Absurdo.8309:

If you don’t like raids, fair enough. That’s not an argument for easy mode raids or the elimination of raids.

It’s not raids themselves i dislike, but the social demands/pressure they create if you want to participate in them.

Easy mode, in my case, would solve that issue. So would, most likely, the 5-man same difficulty version.

Do you actually raid? I have never been in a static raid group. I almost aways pug. I learned all of the bosses in pug groups.

Sure, it’s easier with a static group but it’s by no means required.

Under your logic, there would be no lfg posts.

Absurdo.8309:

Do you actually raid?

Extremely occasionally. It’s really, really hard for us to organize 10 people for an attempt at even the easiest of the raid bosses (and we do have some experienced raiders in our guild)

Absurdo.8309:

I have never been in a static raid group. I almost aways pug. I learned all of the bosses in pug groups.

You might have started doing this earlier. At this moment, pugs are generally divided in two groups:
1. experienced people wanting to raid only with other experienced people
2. inexperienced people generally wanting to hitch a ride with group 1.

Even the first group tends to have really iffy chances of success. That’s based on what i hear from the experienced raiders from my guild, since i can’t verify it myself, as i don’t qualify for those LFGs (i do treat LFG requirements seriously). Second group… best not to dwell on it.

Astralporing.1957:

Absurdo.8309:

Do you actually raid?

Extremely occasionally. It’s really, really hard for us to organize 10 people for an attempt at even the easiest of the raid bosses (and we do have some experienced raiders in our guild)

Absurdo.8309:

I have never been in a static raid group. I almost aways pug. I learned all of the bosses in pug groups.

You might have started doing this earlier. At this moment, pugs are generally divided in two groups:
1. experienced people wanting to raid only with other experienced people
2. inexperienced people generally wanting to hitch a ride with group 1.

Even the first group tends to have really iffy chances of success. That’s based on what i hear from the experienced raiders from my guild, since i can’t verify it myself, as i don’t qualify for those LFGs (i do treat LFG requirements seriously). Second group… best not to dwell on it.

I see teaching runs in lfg all the time. I see guilds training raids all the time.

And, huh, I guess I reliably raid in pug groups. What was your original point again? That you can only raid with a specific set of 9 people who’ve adopted the raid “lifestyle?”

I will agree that it can seem intimidating for inexperienced or starting raiders to join PuG groups. I have seen training runs for KC requiring 80 LI’s. However how you handle this depends on you as the player. Plenty of my guildies and friends only got like 5 kills and they found succesfull groups this week. They just go for it and they do not get discouraged.

Personally I do not buy this accessibility issue. I log on ask like 4 friends to set up a squad which fills up in like 3 minutes and we have a blast on ts. Or I look at lfg and join a random squad. Other days nobody feels like raiding, I cant find any squads that fit my needs and as a result I resort to fractals / open world. Than I notice how stale and boring that content is compared to raids. And I realise the boredom is not caused by organization/accesiblity, the boredom I feel comes from the fact that I crave new and quality openworld/fractal content.

I feel the anger towards raids is not based on any legit reason.

Mr Godlike.6098:

I don’t believe that LS3 will fix this mess.

I don’t believe that story mode or easy mode or solo raid mode will change anything either.

+1, totally agree with you.

Absurdo.8309:

I see guilds training raids all the time.

…you really didn’t read what i wrote at all. Or didn’t bother to understand what i wrote.

Astralporing.1957:

Absurdo.8309:

I see guilds training raids all the time.

…you really didn’t read what i wrote at all. Or didn’t bother to understand what i wrote.

I really have no idea what point you’re trying to make.

Do you need to join a super special raid guild to raid? No. Plenty of people pug.

Does joining a guild help? Yes. It’s helpful to have repeat players.

There is no raid “lifestyle.” Just people who enjoy that type of content. It’s ok not to like it.

If you are having trouble filing your guild group, you can fill the gaps with pugs or join a bigger guild.

Absurdo.8309:

Astralporing.1957:

Absurdo.8309:

I see guilds training raids all the time.

…you really didn’t read what i wrote at all. Or didn’t bother to understand what i wrote.

I really have no idea what point you’re trying to make.

Do you need to join a super special raid guild to raid? No. Plenty of people pug.

Does joining a guild help? Yes. It’s helpful to have repeat players.

There is no raid “lifestyle.” Just people who enjoy that type of content. It’s ok not to like it.

If you are having trouble filing your guild group, you can fill the gaps with pugs or join a bigger guild.

Ok guys what your discussion contributes at this point?

Raids could stay as they are now if pve mode has endgame to pursue. If HoT wasn’t so pointless to play people wouldn’t be lured for pve loot in raids (legendary armor, skins, gear and achievements). It’s same with problems with league awards in pvp – too many people to just grind to get pve stuff.

Make pve worth playing by being profitable and fun game mode and viable alternative to different parts of game (pvp, raids, wvw). Then raids can stay as they are and casuals are happy and hardcore players are happy.

Mr Godlike.6098:

Absurdo.8309:

Astralporing.1957:

Absurdo.8309:

I see guilds training raids all the time.

…you really didn’t read what i wrote at all. Or didn’t bother to understand what i wrote.

I really have no idea what point you’re trying to make.

Do you need to join a super special raid guild to raid? No. Plenty of people pug.

Does joining a guild help? Yes. It’s helpful to have repeat players.

There is no raid “lifestyle.” Just people who enjoy that type of content. It’s ok not to like it.

If you are having trouble filing your guild group, you can fill the gaps with pugs or join a bigger guild.

Ok guys what your discussion contributes at this point?

Raids could stay as they are now if pve mode has endgame to pursue. If HoT wasn’t so pointless to play people wouldn’t be lured for pve loot in raids (legendary armor, skins, gear and achievements). It’s same with problems with league awards in pvp – too many people to just grind to get pve stuff.

Make pve worth playing by being profitable and fun game mode and viable alternative to different parts of game (pvp, raids, wvw). Then raids can stay as they are and casuals are happy and hardcore players are happy.

Agreed – I think dungeon, fractal, and living world should be developed concurrently with raids.

Am I the only one who serously gets freaked out when reading this thread?

‘I don’t want to raid but I want to get the loot from it.’ How old are you? 4?

Just to clarify my point, every MMORP there is had endcontent which was exceptionally hard and thus would give those who could beat it the best(-looking) stuff in the game.
Why would anyone who actually put in the time to actually progress through the raids (we’re speaking of several weeks with 2-5 evenings spent on trying to figure out the mechanics of the boss encounters) want that Anet gives people, who are not willing (or able) to put the effort in to learn the mechanics, the same stuff they worked hard for?
As in real life there’s even in MMORPs a high effort/risk – high reward scheme.

Noone would every come to you and say “Oooooh poor you, you didn’t want to do your homework and learn for your exams, here’s your degree anyway.”

I’m so sick of this ’but I want this, too – attitude".

Spliitter.6249:

Am I the only one who serously gets freaked out when reading this thread?

‘I don’t want to raid but I want to get the loot from it.’ How old are you? 4?

Just to clarify my point, every MMORP there is had endcontent which was exceptionally hard and thus would give those who could beat it the best(-looking) stuff in the game.
Why would anyone who actually put in the time to actually progress through the raids (we’re speaking of several weeks with 2-5 evenings spent on trying to figure out the mechanics of the boss encounters) want that Anet gives people, who are not willing (or able) to put the effort in to learn the mechanics, the same stuff they worked hard for?
As in real life there’s even in MMORPs a high effort/risk – high reward scheme.

Noone would every come to you and say “Oooooh poor you, you didn’t want to do your homework and learn for your exams, here’s your degree anyway.”

I’m so sick of this ’but I want this, too – attitude".

You would be right if raids didn’t outshine weak design and content of pve HoT. Arena even failed to bring new legendary weapons! I just say that casuals feel forced to do content that wasn’t design for them. I have no problem with difficulty or fact that you have to learn and invest a lot of time to do raiding.

And as for the ,,same stuff argument" What if pvp, pve (raids are NOT PVE), and wvw had their own legendary armour’s that look different? Do the fact that you have one of sets of legendary armour that has design exclusive to raids makes it so much less prestige? Hello!? ENDGAME of this game was always about cosmetics pixel stuff! Why raid player have to have loot better then…I don’t wvw players?

Mr Godlike.6098:

And as for the ,,same stuff argument" What if pvp, pve (raids are NOT PVE), and wvw had their own legendary armour’s that look different?

“Player versus environment, or PvE (also known as Player versus Monster, or PvM in some communities), is a term used in online games, particularly MMORPGs, CORPGs, MUDs, and other online role-playing video games, to refer to fighting computer-controlled enemies—in contrast to PvP (player versus player).”
They are pve.

TheRandomGuy.7246:

“Player versus environment, or PvE (also known as Player versus Monster, or PvM in some communities), is a term used in online games, particularly MMORPGs, CORPGs, MUDs, and other online role-playing video games, to refer to fighting computer-controlled enemies—in contrast to PvP (player versus player).”
They are pve.

They are not PvE, but tiny part of it, and not a flawless one.

Rednik.3809:

TheRandomGuy.7246:

“Player versus environment, or PvE (also known as Player versus Monster, or PvM in some communities), is a term used in online games, particularly MMORPGs, CORPGs, MUDs, and other online role-playing video games, to refer to fighting computer-controlled enemies—in contrast to PvP (player versus player).”
They are pve.

They are not PvE, but tiny part of it, and not a flawless one.

So they are not PvE, but they are PvE. Nice.

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Mr Godlike.6098:

And as for the ,,same stuff argument" What if pvp, pve (raids are NOT PVE), and wvw had their own legendary armour’s that look different?

“Player versus environment, or PvE (also known as Player versus Monster, or PvM in some communities), is a term used in online games, particularly MMORPGs, CORPGs, MUDs, and other online role-playing video games, to refer to fighting computer-controlled enemies—in contrast to PvP (player versus player).”
They are pve.

Your right if you treat gw 2 like any other mmo. On other hand gw 2 pve gameplay, difficulty, fight encounter mechanics, and time to invest to have profits (rewards and generally fun) set’s it’s apart in my opinion from raids.

If casuals feel forced to do something they don’t want to in a camputer game, they have way worse problems than not being able to raid.

TheRandomGuy.7246:

They are pve.

Sure. They are. Just as WvW is PvP. And yet WvW is being considered to be a distinct game mode.

Spliitter.6249:

If casuals feel forced to do something they don’t want to in a camputer game, they have way worse problems than not being able to raid.

Sure. That bigger problem (which is a result of the first, smaller one) is likely them having lessened interest in the game as a whole. Though it’s a problem more for the game than the players. Players can find another game, but it’s much harder for the game to replace leaving players.

Astralporing.1957:

TheRandomGuy.7246:

They are pve.

Sure. They are. Just as WvW is PvP. And yet WvW is being considered to be a distinct game mode.

WvW is nothing like 5v5 sPvP so of course it gonna be a distinct game mode. The only difference between raids and openworld/fractals/dungeons is party size.

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Astralporing.1957:

TheRandomGuy.7246:

They are pve.

Sure. They are. Just as WvW is PvP. And yet WvW is being considered to be a distinct game mode.

WvW is nothing like 5v5 sPvP so of course it gonna be a distinct game mode. The only difference between raids and openworld/fractals/dungeons is party size.

It’s like saying that the only difference of WvW versus sPvP is “party size”.

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Astralporing.1957:

TheRandomGuy.7246:

They are pve.

Sure. They are. Just as WvW is PvP. And yet WvW is being considered to be a distinct game mode.

WvW is nothing like 5v5 sPvP so of course it gonna be a distinct game mode. The only difference between raids and openworld/fractals/dungeons is party size.

WvW: 3 servers compete to capture and hold objectives to earn points, killing opponents also gives points with bonus for stomping.
sPVP: 2 5 man teams compete to capture and hold objectives to earn points, killing opponents also gives points with bonus for stomping.

Sure don’t seem to be much different to me. It’s mainly team size and I guess a 3 way vs just 1 opponent.

Always bugged me when people feel there needs to be a distinction between the PVP styles and not the PVE styles as there are very big differences in play style between open world and instanced content.

Jerus.4350:

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Astralporing.1957:

TheRandomGuy.7246:

They are pve.

Sure. They are. Just as WvW is PvP. And yet WvW is being considered to be a distinct game mode.

WvW is nothing like 5v5 sPvP so of course it gonna be a distinct game mode. The only difference between raids and openworld/fractals/dungeons is party size.

WvW: 3 servers compete to capture and hold objectives to earn points, killing opponents also gives points with bonus for stomping.
sPVP: 2 5 man teams compete to capture and hold objectives to earn points, killing opponents also gives points with bonus for stomping.

Sure don’t seem to be much different to me. It’s mainly team size and I guess a 3 way vs just 1 opponent.

Always bugged me when people feel there needs to be a distinction between the PVP styles and not the PVE styles as there are very big differences in play style between open world and instanced content.

Let’s keep discussion to topic:)

I personally don’t have anything against raids…ok maybe 10 man thing. I just try explain why we have such mess that keeps raids being bullied from all sides. To be constructive I would suggest few things:

1.MOST IMPORTANT PART – new legendary weapons promised with HoT need to HAPPEN.
2. LS3 and next expansions needs to provide more then few maps that will bore you after 1-2 months. One the most disappointing thing with HoT was that there wasn’t any world boss on scale with Triple Trouble and TT still provides fun (at least for me)
3. Less outfits more skins to fight for in feature releases.

Just give people some reason play pve so they want complain about content that’s not for them.

But what if I don’t want to raid, but I want that sweet kitten title that’s exclusive to raiding? I couldn’t care less about the armor, but I’ve always wanted “I beat the raids guys!” title to show off .

Then you would be making what’s called a “false equivalency argument.”

As the discussion in this thread has derailed and become circular, I think i’s run its course. Therefore, I’m going to go ahead and lock it. If you have something to share which can stand on its own, please create a new thread for your topic as it pertains to Guild Wars 2. Off-topic and/or derailing posts are not allowed. Thanks!