Guild Wars 2

Don’t do them until you’re L80.

We ran AC and CM when we were level appropriate. Completed AC story and half of AC Explorer 3. Did half of CM story mode. Gave up and went on our way with the intent of revisiting them when we were L80.

Hit L80, geared up, revisited the dungeons … no problem whatsoever. They were challenging (at least on the initial clearing), fun and well thought out by and large. We had a full wipe now and again (usually learning a new mechanic) but otherwise found ourselves able to adjust on the fly, defeat most encounters and generally have fun doing them. It was like night and day.

The game, Rift (and even WoW) had a similar setup between having level appropriate dungeons and then max level versions. These scaled with the appropriate levels well. The current stat/level scaling in GW2 seems a bit off in that regard (hence the overwhelming difficulty attempting GW2 dungeons when level appropriate (Arah aside)).

While I enjoy the dungeons now, does anyone else feel like this is a totally broken design, alienating players from some really good content as they level up?

No. You jsut need more traits and gear to make up for you lack of ability. No offence intended but it is quite clear.

Ive ran cm story with 35-40’s and completed it. Easily. It helped that I knew what the mobs did when they did it and how to manage their movements my groups movements and abilities.

I find that players who can complete the dungeons at the lvl appropriate ranges are much better players overall and have a greater understanding of the game mechanics that those that wait to use gear and traits to their advantage.

They also teach lower levels to not think silliness like what you wrote and to adapt and i thoroughly hope that spreads.

That being said being level 80 does nothing but show glaring gameplay problems. such as inability to dodge, adapt, lead, or have any experience that one would expect of an lvl 80.

Mmmm not sure I agree with you (but appreciate the points made).

I’ve run dungeons in a multitude of MMOs since EQ. Some are easier and some are tougher (with and without gear and so on) and I would readily admit to not understanding the game mechanics if that were the case.

However, given my experiences and those of my friends (who are also long time MMO vets of the dungeon crawling variety) I don’t believe this to be the case (and let’s face it, not standing in fire is not exactly a hard concept to grasp).

L2P certainly has its place, but when you have to say it too much, then maybe its not everyone else?

eh no. I ran AC EM with a level 50 and TA EM with 2 level 60 before and we finished those without any wipe.

I finished CM story when I was level 45 and everyone in my group were around level 40-45.

It all depends on how skillful your group member is not their level.

I wholeheartedly agree with DonQuack.

Just last night I ran AC with 3 80s and a 47. I was a 48 warrior. We had an 80 guardian, thief and another guardian and the 47 was another warrior. Please note that at first they requested id bring in another 80 as that was what they preferred. I said i didnt have one but considering our group wed be fine.

I assumed we’d be fine.

We wiped on the spider queen.

At that point I sort of unofficially took over as leader and began advising the group. I never get angry in these situations as everyone is different and has different personal skill. So i try to educate. Wiping is simply a product of practice and repair money is made back easily anyway.

So we downed her the second time.

Then came the burrows (path 1). I figured wed might have trouble here as we werent exactly brimming with AoE but it could still certainly be done.

We failed 3 times in a row. I helped as much as i could but by this time id grown tired (2am my time) so i bid farewell and advised they bring in an ele with as ice bow.

Point is, never expect a group of 80s to do the content. The number does not make the player. Knowledge does.

More importantly, never expect perfection from pugs. Even if youre all 80. Half the reason people get kicked from groups is because players think that because the content is easy for them, its easy for everyone.

Level doesnt matter. If someone doesnt know, teach. Likewise if youre not sure, listen.

You can always learn something new. Even if your leader is an elitist jerk, try it his way. If it works, great. If not, well at least you humored the kitten. Lol

I’ve been running AC since I was 35 with people of that level range. It certainly is much easier when you’re level 80 (with the traits and other extra boosts), but it is not impossible at lower levels with proper coordination. Those runs took us maybe 45 mins to an hour because we had to be extra careful for each mob group and boss compared to when we’re 80.

Lightrayne.7829:

I’ve been running AC since I was 35 with people of that level range. It certainly is much easier when you’re level 80 (with the traits and other extra boosts), but it is not impossible at lower levels with proper coordination. Those runs took us maybe 45 mins to an hour because we had to be extra careful for each mob group and boss compared to when we’re 80.

You started that off sounding like a GW2 old timer. Lmao

“When i was 35 we didnt have major or master traits! We just had 25 points. 25! And we liked it!”

I ran most dungeons on my main character (ele) after hitting level 80. I did the higher level dungeons first, and the lower level dungeons last.

Once I knew the mechanics of each dungeon, I revisited them on my secondary character (mesmer) at the legally allowed level (o.O). So, my mesmer started AC EM at 35 and so on. I found this to be a great way to level this character up in addition to crafting and such. By thetime she’s 80, I will have enough tokens to get all exotics on this character (those crafted + those from dungeon tokens). hehehe….

That said, I think knowledge > power. Since I know what the dungeons entail, I tune my mesmer’s traits and skills to best overcome the challenges and this makes the game fun. My group LOVED ME when I showed them Time Warp elite skill (when I was just level 35). Get the most important elite skill and utility skills for your profession, and any lower level should be just as useful as a level 80. Grind those skill challenges if you are lower level!

Things that don’t matter when you do dungeons:
- What level you are.

Things that make a little difference, but will not magically take you from ‘wiping repeatedly’ to ‘clearing a dungeon easily’:
- Whether your equipment is Exotic or Rare instead of Fine or Masterwork.
- Whether you have Minor or Major Traits that make a qualitative difference to the effectiveness of your playstyle (Note: The stats you gain from trait points do not make a difference – only the traits themselves matter.)

Things that make a huge difference when you do dungeons:
– Your equipment must be the same level as your character (or very, very close). Update it from the TP every five levels. This is a necessity. Level 70 Exotic Gear on a level 80 character will perform markedly worse than level 35 Masterwork equipment on a level 35 character.
– Being able to play your character efficiently.
– Knowing how to spot, recognize, and deal with enemy special attack patterns quickly enough that you avoid 80-90% of the danger that they pose.
– Whether you are specced (traits and equipment) at least partially into Vitality, Toughness, Healing Power, etc, rather than pure Power/Precision – this is class-agnostic: Toughness is not a dump stat for an Elementalist, for instance.*
– Whether you build with the rest of your party in mind re: support skills and combos, instead of trying to maximize your personal DPS. Any skill you have that the entire party can take advantage of is multiplied five-fold in effectiveness; you’re just not going to outperform that by building as a lone wolf.
– Whether your party consists of people with enough patience to not turn to kittenoon as something frustrating happens, enough humility to realize that every party is a little different and that they might have to slow down or change up their usual playstyle to deal with a newer/less experienced party, and enough ability to communicate that they can strategize and cooperate with the other players, without simply barking orders, without condescending to the less experienced in the party, and without getting offended if they’re asked to do or to not do something.

*Once you are very, very good at dungeons, this is waived, as skill and coordination can eventually take the place of statistical defenses to keep you alive. By the time you’re good enough for this, you consider each and every dungeon path to be easy, with no exceptions. For the record, this is not me.

If level/gear does not make a difference, how do you explain the different experiences in AC (for example) at L30 and then again at L80?

If we were horrible players a week ago, we’re probably horrible players still, no?

Kruunch.3714:

If level/gear does not make a difference, how do you explain the different experiences in AC (for example) at L30 and then again at L80?

If we were horrible players a week ago, we’re probably horrible players still, no?

Different people different experiences. Youre prob not that bad of a player. Its just the tactics you used at the lower levels (while probably not sound ones) are made more effective now at higher levels.

Noones saying youre terrible.

Were just saying level does not make the player and a week is enough time to improve anyway

Weve all given you examples of why 80 doesnt make the player but if youre successful and you feel differently then so what? If its tactical coordination youre looking for then just change up yours and your parties build. Create situations that will challenge you.

So if I’m following you correctly ….

1) Level does not make the player.
2) I’m not a terrible player, just using unsound tactics.
3) My unsound tactics work because of my higher level.
4) In one week’s time I improved at playing GW2 that dramatically.

Hmmmmm.

While I understand the psychology behind “did it = easy / couldn’t do it = hard” I’m not sure I agree with the assertions you’ve made but I’m willing to cede that I could be very wrong here …. I’m always looking for ways to improve

I will concede that gear level ratio, stat orientation, build orientation had a lot to do with our successes, however all of those are dramatically improved with more levels (with the exception of gear level ratio of course).

However the point of the post was two fold:

1) If you’re leveling up and getting discouraged with the dungeons, don’t. They do become easier with levels and gear (and of course, experience).

2) The level progression of dungeons in GW2 is nonsensical as it stands currently, since even the most hardened L2P crowd admits that they are much easier at max level.

Youre only wrong in thinking that you should be lvl 80 to run dungeons effectively.

Discussion beyond that is moot due to the high variables consisting of player, player skill, class, build, weapons and party make up. Variables we just dont know of for everyone.

So /topic

i managed to do just fine on the recommended levels. by the same token, i’ve seen lv80s ragequitting AC and CM exp.

Your level and your gear may be related to why you found it so much easier the second time around. However, this is not because being a higher level and having higher-level gear makes you drastically more effective.

The reason for this is simple: When you’re downscaled to lower-leveled content, the downscaling takes into account the higher stats you can get from traits, the higher stats that your equipment will have, etc. You can test this:
- Take a level 80 character and a level 30 character, of the same class, into Ascalonian Catacombs, with all of their trait points unspent, and all of their equipment removed. Their stats will be identical.
- Now, spend their trait points. The level 30 character will gain the full benefit of +10 to each stat for every trait point they spend. The level 80 character will gain much, much less than that – if I recall correctly, even with 80 trait points spent, the level 80 character will have lower stats than the level 30 character who only had 20 trait points to spend.
– Equip both characters with Masterwork (Green) level 30 equipment. The stats on that equipment will provide a much greater boost to the level 30 character than they will to the level 80 character.
- Equip the level 80 character with level 60 or level 70 Masterwork equipment. Their stats will still be significantly lower than the level 30 character in the level 30 equipment.
- Equip the level 80 character with level 80 Masterwork equipment. You’ll find that only then do the two characters have comparable stats.

If you want to test further, get the lower character to level 35 and repeat the test, only try putting the level 35 character in Rare (Yellow) equipment. His or her stats will once again be higher than the level 80 character’s, wearing level 80 Masterwork equipment. The stats will even out again when you equip the level 80 character with level 80 Rare equipment. If, and only if, you equip the level 80 character with Exotic equipment (which as far as I’m aware is not available at level 35), then that character will have a statistical advantage over the lower leveled character – but not an overwhelming advantage; it’s more likely to be in the area of 5-10% efficacy.

So, why then, did you find it so much more difficult at level 30 than at level 80? Chances are, at level 30, you were mainly playing by doing events, hearts, and otherwise leveling up on the overworld, and dungeons were just something you wandered into to take a shot at, on a lark.
Except that 1) The rate at which you level up in this game is fast enough that you can easily be 10 levels higher than some of your pieces of equipment, by the time you finish a zone, and 2) Events and hearts simply do not provide enough of a challenge to force you into keeping your equipment up to date.
You probably went into the dungeon wearing a mish-mash of equipment, where several pieces were outdated by several levels. Your accessories were probably just whatever pieces you happened to pick up as Personal Story rewards along the way. Your average equipment level was probably several levels lower than your actual character level.
In contrast, at level 80, the advancement stops. You can immediately gear yourself in a full set of level 80 equipment, and know that you’ll never have to upgrade again unless you’re actually moving from Masterwork to Rare, or Rare to Exotic. When you played the dungeon at level 80, you more than likely had a full set of same-level equipment.

Being at level 80 does confer some definite advantages. Grandmaster traits can open up entirely new avenues and playstyles for you: For example, a Warrior who is not level 60 cannot heal other party members in any meaningful way. Once that Warrior hits 60 and can use Grandmaster traits, they suddenly have access to healing banners and healing shouts, allowing them to play a very effective team healing role. Being higher level also allows you to equip Superior Runes and Superior Sigils, and it allows you to use higher level and more effective food and potions. All together, these add up to a significant advantage, but they aren’t game changers.

I played a lot of dungeons on my first, main character, both at lower levels as I was leveling, and at level 80 with full level 80/Exotic gear. My second character used crafting skills to 35, and has done nothing but dungeons since (at level 60 now). There is very little difference in difficulty between the two.

@crater: good points about gear and traits (and a bit of what I was talking about as well). I will totally admit to having a hodge-podge of gear when I entered the first time as an L30. But this further strengthens my point … how many new characters are maximizing their gear as they level (especially sub 60)?

@ Crater

that, sir/madam, is beautiful. look at you, bringing up facts n stuff.. traits do, however, make a pretty solid different in stats between 30 and 80, as well as your majors and minors. but gear is probably what most people are thinking of when they assume 80’s are going to have an easier time, and if what you say is true it doesn’t make that huge of a difference.

@ Kruunch
i think this is a very interesting topic, and i’ve gone back and forth on whether or not dungeons should simply be level 80 content. i see absolutely NO reason for the level system as it is (there’s no good reason AC first, CM second, etc etc), but it’s difficult for me to understand exactly how donwscaling affects everything (for example, i don’t know if an 80 has a bigger advantage in AC or in TA). but i do know that next to no one is going to be have a full dungeon set without being level 80 (i’m not even sure if you can get that many tokens without hitting the level cap from dungeon xp), and the way the game is set up there is very little hovering around any given level. but if you want to hover around a level, and actually run dungeons well at a lower level, you should pause and gear up for the level you are at. if you don’t want to regear or pause, then you should plow onto 80 and dungeon with all of your options at your finger tips. i don’t think you can have it both ways. dungeons are the challenging content, and a random player at level 30 who has not made any effort to optimize their strategy is probably going to be a liability. the bottom line is that if a lower level, poorly geared team can beat an instance with any kind of ease, it’s going to be picked apart by higher levels.

dungeon and overall gameplay experience are the most important things to have going into a dungeon, but if you’re right at the level limit, comfy armor will make things much easier. i didn’t finish cm story on my guardian until 80, but managed it at 38 (geared at 35 rares) on my mesmer, when i knew what i was doing. both were with pugs. a week, believe it or not, can make a huge difference, or even simply having done the dungeon once before.

ps if anyone has more information about how downscaling works statistically, or can link to it, much appreciated.

@Kuroi: That was my point about the poor scaling. It assumes the same ratio of gear and stats which of course, is absurd. A fully traited L80 with L80 gear downscaled to L30 will have better stats than any L30 unless that L30 is in comparable gear for his/her level (which 99% of the time they won’t be) and that over achieving L30 would still have less stats due to Traits.

Standing around Arah last night, talking with some of the groups farming tokens, they all agreed that while yes, dungeons are doable at the appropriate levels, they are not fun for most new toons. The level appropriate toons that were actually doing these dungeons efficiently were either being led along by a core of L80s (most cases) or had been through said dungeon before (as an L80).

At any rate, it’s not hard to understand the difference a pile of stats would make to your dungeon running experience. Definitely worth checking out at L80 …. don’t feel discouraged before then.

DonQuack.9025:

No. You jsut need more traits and gear to make up for you lack of ability. No offence intended but it is quite clear.

Ive ran cm story with 35-40’s and completed it. Easily. It helped that I knew what the mobs did when they did it and how to manage their movements my groups movements and abilities.

I find that players who can complete the dungeons at the lvl appropriate ranges are much better players overall and have a greater understanding of the game mechanics that those that wait to use gear and traits to their advantage.

They also teach lower levels to not think silliness like what you wrote and to adapt and i thoroughly hope that spreads.

That being said being level 80 does nothing but show glaring gameplay problems. such as inability to dodge, adapt, lead, or have any experience that one would expect of an lvl 80.

Those level 35 must have been very useful in level 40 content.

I am starting to suspect some classes have an easier experience in catacombs at low levels so they assume everything is the same for every profession…..

I’ll give some example :….

-the difference between being oneshot or survive one hit is HUGE

-sigils

-runes

-traits makes healing a thing, your healing is really uneffective at low lvls

-same for gear

-I can actually use combo due to traits abilities…..

-I have more cantrips, glyphs etc (don t forget a lvl 30-40 won’t have 100 skillpoints probably).

-Attunements recover faster

-crit % becomes something you can rely on

i could go on for a long

I really struggle to undesrtand how people can deny those HUGE differences and just say L2P.

Yes a lvl 30-40 that plays since few weeks have to be flawless to survive, whereas an experienced lvl 80 can commit 2-3 mistakes before dying…….

Doesn t make much sense to me….

I mean i noticed in normal PvE the difference between green and exotic gear (and its not so unnoticeable as people says…..since i got HALF exo set my dying rate dropped of 90% while i can face double the opponents) yet people says lvl 80 geared and lvl 40 PuGs doesn t feel much differet…..

Now if you enter for example elementalist forum you see how them have to rely on cantrips/combos/auras BUILDS to not be completely useless…….and i suspect the same works for most classes….

Those builds requires at least lvl 70 so i smell hypochrysy when i read a vanilla character can face a dungeon like a lvl 80…..

_

Anyone else see the redundancy of this thread?

Dungeons are difficult at par level.

“Who knew?”

Some classes may have an easier time due to their very nature as that class or due to the skill of the player.

“Thank you oh Lord for giving us individuality.”

As you gain experience and improve your gear, dungeons become gradually easier and somewhat more forgiving.

“You dont say? Hello progression!”

But sometimes you need more than just better gear to improve your performance in dungeons. Exotics can only help you so much. Even level 80s can struggle.

“Oh! There’s that individuality thing again!”

There’s progression. Clearly there is. But sometimes people still need practice despite having max level gear. Not all the time though. Agsin, everyone is different and has different experiences.

I dont know why this thread is still going. Everyones saying the same thing but filling it with techno babble. Lol

The only real problem was the belief that you could perform well in dungeons if you were 80.

Clearly thats not true and of course theyre gonna be easier at 80 kitten

So why all the discussion about a crazy bugged progression system?

@Oreoz: The part you’re missing is the immense change in difficulty between being a brand new L80 with basic L80 gear and being a leveling L30 with comparable L30 gear in a dungeon designed to scale in difficulty. This thread isn’t about a melee ranger in whites vs. a support specced guardian in exotics.

i.e. – the dungeon design is broken at the earliest levels of inception (except with the possible exception of Arah and the mid 70s dungeons).

EDIT – As a challenge, I invite you to try any dungeon at L80 in full greens. The difference is staggering. Yes, being geared should make a difference. It shouldn’t totally negate the content (which is really does currently). To whit, the purpose of L80 dungeons seems to be to farm them for armor skins, since you can gain the same stats in crafted exotics much more easily and faster. In other words, all that token farming basically boils down to is wearing a prettier dress.

@oreoz i’ll sum up saying some people would like FEW dungeon to be a challenge appropriate to the suggested EXPERIENCE and LEVEL requirements and not all of them to be endgame content or a good challenge for second or third “toons” of people that memorized the lines with their alt 80.

And i bet that statistic can prove lvl 30 and 40 dungeons both story than explore are not.

Kruunch.3714:

But this further strengthens my point … how many new characters are maximizing their gear as they level (especially sub 60)?

I have no idea why more people sub 60 don’t do that. Low level masterwork gear can be had on the TP for a few copper more than the base sale price.

I tend to make it a point to swap up my gear every 5 levels. Optimal gear = faster killing = faster exp gaining. Minor runes/sigils and low level food is the same way. Cheap cheap cheap.

Dracones.9105:

Kruunch.3714:

But this further strengthens my point … how many new characters are maximizing their gear as they level (especially sub 60)?

I have no idea why more people sub 60 don’t do that. Low level masterwork gear can be had on the TP for a few copper more than the base sale price.

I tend to make it a point to swap up my gear every 5 levels. Optimal gear = faster killing = faster exp gaining. Minor runes/sigils and low level food is the same way. Cheap cheap cheap.

Sure but considering how fast you can level in GW2 (and as others have said) it’s not hard to out level your gear. By the same token, many MMO vets know to save their in-game money for different money sinks (e.g. trainer tomes) and max level upgrades (where possible).

And I was wearing mostly greens when I first did AC (I tend to be very gear conscious). How many L30s are running around with rares and exotics at the level requirement? The fact that that’s even a point is further evidence of the design issues of the “lower level” dungeons in GW2.

Id say its mostly an issue of one not doing all they can in order to prepare themselves for dungeon content, as that seems to be where this discussion is going. Yes there are other places to spend money but thats at max level and by that time you should have more than enough resources at ur disposal to make money.

I see no problem with imbalance or design issues at the lower levels.

Kruunch.3714
And I was wearing mostly greens when I first did AC (I tend to be very gear conscious). How many L30s are running around with rares and exotics at the level requirement? The fact that that’s even a point is further evidence of the design issues of the “lower level” dungeons in GW2.

When my guild of friends and I did AC a week ago, the first time any of us had been in a dungeon, our highest level was 41, everyone else was 30-35, and as far as I know only one other person besides me even had full green gear. I’m sure I was the only one who, thanks to some market work, could conceivably have afforded anything better than green. It was, not unexpectedly, four hours of grueling effort to finish the dungeon, and we came really close to stalling out at a 3-minion fight.

I don’t regret it, though, because I think it gave us an incentive to really buckle down and study how our powers worked and how to coordinate them for next time, which is likely to be before any of us reach 80. If we managed to get a combo off on that first time through the dungeon, it would have been accidental, next time we’ll actually, like, PLAN them.

I do agree in one sense with Kruunch, the dungeons are a pretty abrupt change in difficulty from the rest of the game. Had we not all been friends, I don’t know if everyone would have stuck it out for 4 hours, and we came close to having a couple swear off dungeons. It would be nice if they, or some other similar feature of the game, had an easier mode, mid way between regular zone PvE and dungeon story mode. It could have less rewards, but still something a little more then you get from things like Heart events, and would provide an incentive to improve skills for people who, unlike me, don’t get a kick out of maxing out my ability to play and build to in response to a near impossible challenge.

Kozai.8269:

Kruunch.3714
And I was wearing mostly greens when I first did AC (I tend to be very gear conscious). How many L30s are running around with rares and exotics at the level requirement? The fact that that’s even a point is further evidence of the design issues of the “lower level” dungeons in GW2.

When my guild of friends and I did AC a week ago, the first time any of us had been in a dungeon, our highest level was 41, everyone else was 30-35, and as far as I know only one other person besides me even had full green gear. I’m sure I was the only one who, thanks to some market work, could conceivably have afforded anything better than green. It was, not unexpectedly, four hours of grueling effort to finish the dungeon, and we came really close to stalling out at a 3-minion fight.

I don’t regret it, though, because I think it gave us an incentive to really buckle down and study how our powers worked and how to coordinate them for next time, which is likely to be before any of us reach 80. If we managed to get a combo off on that first time through the dungeon, it would have been accidental, next time we’ll actually, like, PLAN them.

I do agree in one sense with Kruunch, the dungeons are a pretty abrupt change in difficulty from the rest of the game. Had we not all been friends, I don’t know if everyone would have stuck it out for 4 hours, and we came close to having a couple swear off dungeons. It would be nice if they, or some other similar feature of the game, had an easier mode, mid way between regular zone PvE and dungeon story mode. It could have less rewards, but still something a little more then you get from things like Heart events, and would provide an incentive to improve skills for people who, unlike me, don’t get a kick out of maxing out my ability to play and build to in response to a near impossible challenge.

Try them again at L80 … they get easier.

Also there is a small public dungeon we found in the northeast corner of the Charr lands. I forgot the name off the top of my head, but it’s marked on the world map as XXX Portal. We were curious so checked it out and it was really neat. An underwater dungeon with a bunch of puzzles to progress through, a boss and a chest at the end.

I wish they had more content like this in the game (chest events tend to devolve into “kill the champ and take his loot” later on).

Kruunch.3714:

How many L30s are running around with rares and exotics at the level requirement? The fact that that’s even a point is further evidence of the design issues of the “lower level” dungeons in GW2.

You don’t need rares or exotics at level 30, greens are fine and are only about 1 sp a slot. Just using a waypoint costs between 20-40 cp. There really isn’t a money issue with it.

But I’d agree that it’s even a point is a design issue.

Kruunch.3714:

Try them again at L80 … they get easier.

Also there is a small public dungeon we found in the northeast corner of the Charr lands. I forgot the name off the top of my head, but it’s marked on the world map as XXX Portal. We were curious so checked it out and it was really neat. An underwater dungeon with a bunch of puzzles to progress through, a boss and a chest at the end.

Yes, I expect they will get easier at 80, but myself and the one other person in the group who really thrives on a challenge wanted to start getting a feel for them, and the others really like to see new stuff so we used that as an incentive to lure them in, heh heh. Also it will be weeks till any of us reaches 80, and probably several months minimum till all of us have (as it was, one person who would have liked to go doesn’t have a 30 yet, even though he started before me).

Thanks for the tip on the mini-dungeon, I’ll see if I can get us through there, it sounds great for one of our usual evenings when we only have an hour or two with all of us on together. We only get a weekend day together, long enough for something like that dungeon, a few times a year. I wonder if there are more things like that? Probably so, there are easter egg like surprise events all over in places I wouldn’t have expected, and I have a terrible memory so I’ll never find them again. :p

Story modes are completely doable at the level they open up. We ran all story modes as we leveled with few issues. Our first few runs were painful, but as we got familiar with the mechanics, we were able to get through with little to no death our first attempt on later dungeons. They are a ton easier (too easy) at level 80, with fully spec’d traits, and rare/exotic gear.

Explorables on the other hand. While they can be done at the level intented with a group of competent players and level appropriate gear, they are obviously tuned to level 80 gear / traits. Some are much easier than others (CM vs AC for example). We ran AC Explorable at level 40 and it was painful. We cleared the first attempt (path 2) after numerous full wipes but decided it was a better use of our time getting levels and gearing up at the time. Going back at level 80, it’s still challenging, but can run pretty much anything with little to no death (except Arah).

High level gear has 3 different stat bonuses while low level gear has only 2, until a certain point. Your lv80 gear does scale down to equivalent but you do have that 3rd stat. At least in AC, the lv35 vs lv80 (or to whatever point you get the 3rd gear stat, lv55 you can get blue gear with 3 stats i believe) that’s a difference. I personally started doing the level appropriate dungeons as soon as I hit the level and took my chances with pugs (They just cant see my 2.5k achievement points and assume I have a basic understanding of the game I suppose) and hope I don’t get kicked. I don’t have any problems at low levels. Higher levels has advantages but it all just comes down to player skill in the end.

@Kruunch

It does alienate players. A friend of mine quit, and I almost quit myself (although stuck it out a bit longer) and as I got the higher levels and gear I started to get into the dungeons more and they turned out to be pretty good*

*depending on dungeon

Fun and challenging, not just challenging. dur

Eileithia.5246:

Story modes are completely doable at the level they open up. We ran all story modes as we leveled with few issues. Our first few runs were painful, but as we got familiar with the mechanics, we were able to get through with little to no death our first attempt on later dungeons. They are a ton easier (too easy) at level 80, with fully spec’d traits, and rare/exotic gear.

Explorables on the other hand. While they can be done at the level intented with a group of competent players and level appropriate gear, they are obviously tuned to level 80 gear / traits. Some are much easier than others (CM vs AC for example). We ran AC Explorable at level 40 and it was painful. We cleared the first attempt (path 2) after numerous full wipes but decided it was a better use of our time getting levels and gearing up at the time. Going back at level 80, it’s still challenging, but can run pretty much anything with little to no death (except Arah).

This was exactly my experience as well. Doable … but painful and ultimately (considering the lack of rewards) more productive to go level, gear and come back.

I just consider that method of dungeon design poor (the dungeons themselves are fun though (eventually)).

Kozai.8269:

Thanks for the tip on the mini-dungeon, I’ll see if I can get us through there, it sounds great for one of our usual evenings when we only have an hour or two with all of us on together. We only get a weekend day together, long enough for something like that dungeon, a few times a year. I wonder if there are more things like that? Probably so, there are easter egg like surprise events all over in places I wouldn’t have expected, and I have a terrible memory so I’ll never find them again. :p

While I haven’t found another mini-dungeon as well thought out as that one yet (only 55% discovery on the world though) there are a ton of multi-stage events at later levels that are actually pretty neat (unlocking Lyssa for example).

Overall I’m very impressed with the PvE in this game, especially considering GW1. This is probably why I was so disappointed with the inception point of the dungeons (rather than the dungeons themselves).

Wethospu.6437:

Those level 35 must have been very useful in level 40 content.

Extremely. Once you accept that you dont have to kill things to be helpful it opens a world of possibilities.

or perhaps you didnt know you can go in CM at a lower level? AC also. Havent tested the others yet.

I think you just lost all your credibility right there. Really, you could have admitted that maybe undergeared people aren’t that effective (and that you can easily carry people in easier dungeons). But no, they are “EXTREMELY useful”.
Hint: bigger stats and not getting glancing hits all the time makes you more effective.

@DonQuack I can confirm that you can take lower levels into dungeons, but you’re most likely going to have to help them out especially if it’s their first time. I think those level ‘limits’ are actually ‘recommendations’. Of course it’s probably not ideal that you have a whole party under the level recommendation, but it’s not impossible to do a run that way.

I think the thread starter assumed that level 80 = experienced, which has not been my experience. I started dungeoning from 4x and I’m 70 now. I’m usually the only one under level 80 in a group but I know what I’m doing. Now maybe I’m the deadweight in some parts of various dungeons but it’s not like having people under level 80 means constant wipes/frustration/“what are we doing guys?”.

By contrast I led a group of random level 80s into CM path 3 and the whole group quit on me before the final boss because they refused to follow simple instructions. They thought they could take on the mob with their full exotic gear from whatever other dungeon.

Level 80 doesn’t mean a faster, better and more satisfying dungeon experience. A level 50 who has done exp paths twice brings more to the team than a level 80 who charges in thinking he can tank the bosses.

oreoz has a good point. i think it makes sense.

if you want to run dungeons, you should to have decent gear for your level. i know that both AC and CM are comfortable with a level 40 in 35 rare MF armor and masterwork weps (no sigils, runes, or accessories). it cost me like, 60s. which i made back in like two runs. i even learned AC xplo with this setup (that got kinda expensive though, but no more expensive than learning CM xplo with my 80 rare guardian).

that said, experience and communication, i think, makes the biggest difference between life and death. an articulate player armed with a proven strategy is going to be able to carry the day more often than not.

Wethospu.6437:

I think you just lost all your credibility right there. Really, you could have admitted that maybe undergeared people aren’t that effective (and that you can easily carry people in easier dungeons). But no, they are “EXTREMELY useful”.
Hint: bigger stats and not getting glancing hits all the time makes you more effective.

again as I said " It depends on what you consider helpful" If you consider damage your only way of doing things then no.

Me? Combo fields and group synergy is more important than just dps.

Also 35 vs 40 do not make glancing hits. I usually face enemies 5-6 levels above me. Infact that is how I prefer to play. I like dying, and I like not dying when I should die.

Good dungeon run is a fast dungeon run. What ultimately matters is how much damage you do (except few cases where you don’t have to kill anything). Everything else is just there to help doing damage.
Do you honestly think underleveled people can bring something which level 80 exotic people couldn’t?