Guild Wars 2

This is purely my opinion on the various issues at dispute and this is what I would advocate if I was asked to be part of a panel on setting new rules.

Consumables: Nothing except food and dungeon potions/skale venom/oils. No gem store boosters, no town clothes, no harpy feathers, no embers etc, no watchwork portal devices.

Start of the run: I am fine with the current rules regarding timing the runs from the first npc interaction, the only dungeon where this is an issue is arah (and possibly CM?). I think the best way to encompass any dungeons like that would be to insist that all members of the party be adjacent to the player who talks to the first npc aka they cannot be further up towards a door or beyond a door. This might be too clunky and abuseable but I think it could be worded in a way to prevent abuse.

Maps: No going outside the map, jumping puzzles, or bypassing closed doors. If a boss is skippable through “normal” gameplay it is optional. example would be the champ in TAF before the bubble room. You can pass him and continue on without fighting. A non-optional boss is the Mage Crusher in Arah p3.

FGS: I have absolutely no problem with this anymore. Sure, it hurts build diversity somewhat to have 2x eles in every group for the foreseeable future but I think at this point its safe to say anet doesn’t consider it an exploit so there is no reason for us to.

Portal: Perfectly legal. If the mesmer can run somewhere easier than the rest of the party and portal people up to gain advantage, so be it. This is no different than stealth on a thief. There is a time investment in stopping to stealth on a thief so it has to be worth it, same for a portal. I think without harpy feathers, the usefulness of the mesmer running ahead and porting everybody up tactic will be greatly diminished anyway.

Boss glitching: This is harder to determine. I feel like it should be clearly wrong to glitch out Simin, but is that very much different than meleeing the spider queen? I understand it IS different but how to enforce it? Would need some careful wording.

Fractals: I think for speed runs, we should use 49 since that seems to be the level everyone does for dailies, though I would have no problem with 30 either just so mistlock instability doesnt somehow limit build diversity.

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

Apparently there was a meeting between the euros while I was asleep, did anything come of it?

Currently, the rules as I have them would look like this:

‘Legit Rules’:

1.) For a record to be valid, the time must be faster than the current record displayed and the record must be accompanied by a video for evidence/proof; one point of view is sufficient.

Additional guidelines for your videos:

a. Videos may not be sped up or slowed down, and must be captured in normal time.

b) To strengthen your submission you can also include in-game audio with your videos (so viewers can hear the speed at which the sounds happen) and record in high quality so that skill animations can be viewed clearly.

c. You can also type /age at the start, and /age again at the end of the video. This way, viewers will be able to determine the total time spent by subtracting the growth in your account age.

2.) The records timer starts when any party member activates a skill or moves their model. This includes but is not limited to: taking a step, turning, jumping, etc. Using emotes will not result in the timer starting.

3.) The timer stops when the final boss of the dungeon has been killed.
3a.) If the end fight is completed in a method which results in no completion of the dungeon, the record is void.

5.) All pathways that are designed to block progress through the path must be opened. You may not have any party member(s) get past blocked passages until the required sequence/dialogue has been completed.

6.) Consumables (excluding food/nourishment) are banned.

7.) If any party member(s) at any point enter ‘out of bounds’ on a dungeon map, the time will be void.

8.) The record system is founded on trust. Please do not attempt to fake videos, i.e.: Editing them, using DC tricks to manipulate the in-game events, etc. All we have is third-party proof and no real way to verify your accomplishments. Because of this, some people may, and will fake records. If a record appears to be fake, feel free to follow up with your own posts in its thread debating its legitimacy.

9.) No use of gem store boosters/items. This includes but is not limited to Strength/Armor boosters and instant trait resets.

10.) Have fun, and good luck

You nailed it, sweetie.

I didn’t really touch on FGS or boss manipulation. As Nike said, I don’t think it’s justified to ban the use of FGS in runs. I could add an amendment that states “you may not use blink skills to manipulate the nature of rush abilities”, that would be easy.

As for boss manipulation, I could add something that says… “If it is evident that your party has deliberately used a tactic to disable a boss, the time will be void”. I don’t want to add ‘exploit’ into that rule, because then we end up with gray area arguments. If I add ‘deliberately’ as well, it exempts dumb boss bugs such as Balthazar and Lyssa; bosses where you actually have to try NOT to bug them.

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

Apparently there was a meeting between the euros while I was asleep, did anything come of it?

There hasn’t been one.
I’ve contacted some guilds who regularry compete in speedruns to schedule a meeting.
most likely next week-ish

Attending guilds so far are:

• Death And Taxes [DnT]
• Lupi Stole My Bike [LuPi]
• Stop Stealing [agro]
• Legion of Doom [LOD]
• Coldsnap [IX]
• Retaliate [rT]
• Penetration Style [DpS] (reforming)
• Keep Running [Kr]
• Define [HC]
• First Grade [ONE]

I was hoping i could contact you in game soon as well for further information and questions.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ReEnxDn7shoYh5I16DW9xfl3WCDzsJGgiDTOFCN45u8/edit?usp=sharing

This is the final version of MY rule set. All guilds involved should take that link and share it with their guild, and discuss what changes they would like to see made, so that you can bring it up when this proposed meeting happens.

Thanks.

In other news, since this meeting probably won’t happen for a week or so, I’ll announce some of the other stuff that we’re working on, and you should be able to see when we launch the new rule sets:

Current Meta / All-time leaderboards – We will host two boards. One board will host all ‘current meta’ records, other will host the fastest times ever achieved (under the new rule sets).

Guild Leaderboards – This is a feature we had in GW1. We will host a leaderboard that ranks participating guilds by how many current meta records they hold. We can also add a leaderboard for all-time records, if people want to see that.

Fractal Leaderboard – Ranked at lvl49 fractals. Same rule sets as normal dungeons. It will record the fastest submitted time(s) for each individual fractal level. I do not believe that it is competitive or viable to rank full fractal runs.

EDIT: Also have a spot for 1-2 extra moderators, if some people are interested. Just send me a PM with why you think you would like to do it, or why you would be a good fit for it. Only requirements really, are that I should probably have a half idea who you are, and preferably be from one of the more well known guilds (if not from one of those guilds, at least be someone well known to this sub-forum). Only thing Moderators really do is update the leaderboard(s), which is very easy. There are no rules to maintain, so you don’t have to delete posts or ban people or anything. Ezpz.

I agree with these rules for the most part just one thing though, town clothes? i think it was the executioner outfit ( correct me if im wrong) but it gives more mobility to classes like mesmers and since it can’t be obtained anymore isn’t it unfair to those who don’t own it? especially for legit rules

In my google doc, I amended the consumable rule to include town clothes. For people who are too lazy to click a link, or are afraid I’m going to steal their gw2 account or something crazy, I’ll paste the contents of the document here:

‘Legit Rules’:

1.) For a record to be valid, the time must be faster than the current record displayed and the record must be accompanied by a video for evidence/proof; one point of view is sufficient.

Additional guidelines for your videos:
a. Videos may not be sped up or slowed down, and must be captured in normal time.
b. To strengthen your submission you can also include in-game audio with your videos (so viewers can hear the speed at which the sounds happen) and record in high quality so that skill animations can be viewed clearly.
c. You can also type /age at the start, and /age again at the end of the video. This way, viewers will be able to determine the total time spent by subtracting the growth in your account age.

2.) The records timer starts when any party member activates a skill or moves their model. This includes but is not limited to: taking a step, turning, jumping, etc. Using emotes will not result in the timer starting.

3.) The timer stops when the final boss of the dungeon has been killed.

3a.) If the end fight is completed in a method which results in no completion of the dungeon, the record is void. [This rule may no longer be required]

5.) All pathways that are designed to block progress through the path must be opened. You may not have any party member(s) get past blocked passages until the required sequence/dialogue has been completed.

6.) Consumables (excluding food/nourishment)and town clothing are banned.

7.) If any party member(s) at any point enter ‘out of bounds’ on a dungeon map, the time will be void.

8.) Party members may not abuse blink/teleport skills to manipulate rush abilities. e.g Fiery Greatsword Rush.

9.) If it is evident that your party has deliberately used tactics to disable a boss, your time will be void.

10.) The record system is founded on trust. Please do not attempt to fake videos, i.e.: Editing them, using DC tricks to manipulate the in-game events, etc. All we have is third-party proof and no real way to verify your accomplishments. Because of this, some people may, and will fake records. If a record appears to be fake, feel free to follow up with your own posts in its thread debating its legitimacy.

11.) No use of gem store boosters/items. This includes but is not limited to Strength/Armor boosters and instant trait resets.

12.) Have fun, and good luck

sorry i misread :P

since none of the current records meet rule 2 are you going to wipe all the records?

joey the creator.3587:

since none of the current records meet rule 2 are you going to wipe all the records?

Yes. We will be starting fresh. That means it would be wise to not do any record pushes for the rest of this week.

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

joey the creator.3587:

since none of the current records meet rule 2 are you going to wipe all the records?

Yes. We will be starting fresh. That means it would be wise to not do any record pushes for the rest of this week.

Okay well thats fair, it might also gather more interest from people since it’s starting afresh

jesus i need to stop with the questions but one more; what specifically do you mean by boss disabling, does standing on the coral at the ooze boss in arah p1 count as disabling or just a safespot? I think that rule may cause some confusion, it did for me anyway

joey the creator.3587:

jesus i need to stop with the questions but one more; what specifically do you mean by boss disabling, does standing on the coral at the ooze boss in arah p1 count as disabling or just a safespot? I think that rule may cause some confusion, it did for me anyway

That’s true. The rule will have to be worded differently, based on what people expect. We’ll see what people decide they’d like to see from the boss rule.

EDIT: Current amendment:

9.) If it is evident that your party has deliberately used tactics to disable a boss, your time will be void. All bosses must be in a position to physically attack you. If they are unable to damage you in any way, this is counted as illegally disabling the boss.

By deliberately, I mean that you would have had to go out of your way to create the disable. That means that poopy bosses like Balthazar and Lyssa, who bug out without you even trying, will not result in you breaking the rules.

So i guess the coral is not an option in the legit runs anymore. Seems fair enough. Im curious how people will deal with that encounter.

spoj.9672:

So i guess the coral is not an option in the legit runs anymore. Seems fair enough. Im curious how people will deal with that encounter.

I’m concerned about that as well, truthfully. Hopefully people will man up and accept the challenge though, and not just leave that record empty. I mean, why are we making rules like this anyway if people are just going to avoid the challenging records?

^^ Bow Bear!!!!!!

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

spoj.9672:

So i guess the coral is not an option in the legit runs anymore. Seems fair enough. Im curious how people will deal with that encounter.

I’m concerned about that as well, truthfully. Hopefully people will man up and accept the challenge though, and not just leave that record empty. I mean, why are we making rules like this anyway if people are just going to avoid the challenging records?

Oh I’d love to see people find out how to melee the ooze :o and turns out we actually have a lot of potential speed running guilds, more than I knew existed. Those records will be filled

After talking with the guys from ‘Stop Stealing [agro]’, I’ve decided to keep the existing rule set in it’s entirety, as the standard for ‘Any rules’ runs. This means that we won’t wipe the board, and records will be reset on the basis that any methods used in a record have been nerfed/removed/fixed/etc.

The plans for the ‘Legit Rules’ are still the same, and are unaffected by this decision. For now, if you wish to compete under the current rules, feel free to do so. The ‘Legit Rules’ will be published and ready to compete under, once the meeting that [HC] is hosting has been completed.

As a note, if that meeting fails to happen, I plan to publish the rules that exist, in whatever form they may be by then, by the end of next weekend.

I think collection of encounter specific rule interpretations would also be good. Like mention that coral can’t be used to kill Ooze or mention that balthazar can bug if not done on purpose.

Wethospu.6437:

I think collection of encounter specific rule interpretations would also be good. Like mention that coral can’t be used to kill Ooze or mention that balthazar can bug if not done on purpose.

Would you, or someone else that like to put together a collection of those?

Are there going to be leaderboards for every party size?

Spiky Muffin.9180:

Are there going to be leaderboards for every party size?

Uhhh… There could be, but probably not as short-term as the rest of the leaderboards.

Is there enough competition to really justify this?

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

Spiky Muffin.9180:

Are there going to be leaderboards for every party size?

Uhhh… There could be, but probably not as short-term as the rest of the leaderboards.

Is there enough competition to really justify this?

I saw a duo dwayna record claim a while back, so you got that

Sanderinoa.8065:

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

Spiky Muffin.9180:

Are there going to be leaderboards for every party size?

Uhhh… There could be, but probably not as short-term as the rest of the leaderboards.

Is there enough competition to really justify this?

I saw a duo dwayna record claim a while back, so you got that

That’s not a full dungeon though

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

Sanderinoa.8065:

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

Spiky Muffin.9180:

Are there going to be leaderboards for every party size?

Uhhh… There could be, but probably not as short-term as the rest of the leaderboards.

Is there enough competition to really justify this?

I saw a duo dwayna record claim a while back, so you got that

That’s not a full dungeon though

Close enough

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

Spiky Muffin.9180:

Are there going to be leaderboards for every party size?

Uhhh… There could be, but probably not as short-term as the rest of the leaderboards.

Is there enough competition to really justify this?

Having no idea about how much trouble creating those leaderboards would cause I don’t know how much competition there has to be to justify them.

Most popular would be a solo category, which could also be named “smallest required party size”. What I mean is for example Arah P1: you need at least 4 people to do it but AC P3 can be solo’ed.
I’m not sure about the consumable restriction in this category, because from what I’ve seen they are sometimes required to kill a boss in a reasonable time (Solo Belka’s in my mind). That’s a reason I could see a possibility of allowing embers there although I’m not sure how many embers would be spammed at perhaps Lupi.
A possible solution for this could be to allow a set number of embers you can use.

What do you guys think about this?

I could just host the smaller party records the same way that the GW1 records are currently hosted? (In a thread, instead of on a dedicated leaderboard). You’d have to come up with a rule set, though.

I think rules should be the same as in the fully legit category. The only required differences I can think of now are a limited number of usable embers, allowed hylek poison pot, pet whistle but nothing else.

I woulnd’t mind them being hosted as GW1 records, though I wouldn’t say no to a good-looking spot on the record page

Well I dont really even have to try getting fastest time then #mesmerpride

Spiky Muffin.9180:

I think rules should be the same as in the fully legit category. The only required differences I can think of now are a limited number of usable embers, allowed hylek poison pot, pet whistle but nothing else.

I woulnd’t mind them being hosted as GW1 records, though I wouldn’t say no to a good-looking spot on the record page

If you (or someone else) can come up with a concept design for a leaderboard, then we can probably make it happen

This is the quality of the concepts I give the administrator, so you don’t have much to compete with

I really like the thought of finally having exploit-free-speedclears.

Not only does it involve more skill, it also (most likely) will get the competition up.

It’s gonna be a good time to shine for any not so well-know sc-guild

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Maps: No going outside the map, jumping puzzles, or bypassing closed doors. If a boss is skippable through “normal” gameplay it is optional. example would be the champ in TAF before the bubble room. You can pass him and continue on without fighting. A non-optional boss is the Mage Crusher in Arah p3.

This is the only real problem I have. Dungeons in GW2 are so linear + gated that if you remove the ability to go outside that linear gating pretty much everyone is forced into the same (or extraordinarily similar) tactics with little room for innovation. There’s no room for creative splits and records just turn into a DPS race: who can run to each boss in succession and kill it the quickest.

Dunno, creative tactics + splits were what made records meaningful to me in GW1. They’re not really possible in GW2 without going outside the map because dfungeons are so much more linear than UW/FoW/DoA were.

That’s the biggest reason why record runs don’t make much sense in GW2. Dungeons have such linear goals that (unless you go outside the maps to do solo/duo splits) any record is just a DPS race and not a measure of how creative + technically skilled players are

tl;dr I think door skips should be allowed as long as you kill every boss/complete every objective required for dungeon completion. Otherwise records devolve into a contest of “who can skip trash and burn bosses the fastest while waiting for gates” and there is no room for solo/duo tactical splits which are—imho—the true measure of technical player skill

Odd Magnet.3970:

I really like the thought of finally having exploit-free-speedclears.

Not only does it involve more skill, it also (most likely) will get the competition up.

It’s gonna be a good time to shine for any not so well-know sc-guild

Lol

Whats so funny about that?

Another thing that should be considered for the rules is the discussion of individual paths.
Not to make rules for special occasions, but to make them so they’re clear for every path.

Example: Arah P3, skipping the gate with stealth. Imo this shouldn’t be legit, since it’s clearly not intended. Same goes for CoE (the gate that opens after choosing a path)
On the other side, things as going backwards into the “boss-bubble” in Arah P2 is fine for me, since you can’t deal damage before it disappears, you only save milliseconds, if even.

Odd Magnet.3970:

Whats so funny about that?

Another thing that should be considered for the rules is the discussion of individual paths.
Not to make rules for special occasions, but to make them so they’re clear for every path.

Example: Arah P3, skipping the gate with stealth. Imo this shouldn’t be legit, since it’s clearly not intended. Same goes for CoE (the gate that opens after choosing a path)
On the other side, things as going backwards into the “boss-bubble” in Arah P2 is fine for me, since you can’t deal damage before it disappears, you only save milliseconds, if even.

Making the rules as white-knightly as you can and trying to determine what was “intended” is foolish.

If it’s not the intend, to make the rules as clear as possible for all dungeons in the game, why even make new ones?
If the rules are so loose that people can’t clearly say this or that is allowed or not, there’s no reason to have them.
Also, for those who think exploits are part of speedruns, they can still submit under the old rules

Correct me if I’m wrong here, but nobody from anet has ever said stealth skipping through the door in arah p3 is an exploit. What gives you the authority to say whether or not its an exploit? It seems to me that your forcing your opinion on others for your own benefit.

It upsets me so therefore = exploit.

Discussion over.

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

Wethospu.6437:

I think collection of encounter specific rule interpretations would also be good. Like mention that coral can’t be used to kill Ooze or mention that balthazar can bug if not done on purpose.

Would you, or someone else that like to put together a collection of those?

I would prefer not to. Hands full with my guide.

Clumsy.6257:

Correct me if I’m wrong here, but nobody from anet has ever said stealth skipping through the door in arah p3 is an exploit. What gives you the authority to say whether or not its an exploit? It seems to me that your forcing your opinion on others for your own benefit.

Since when you needed authority for opinions? Please stop derailing. It is important to have clear rules to avoid interpretations.

Clumsy.6257:

I’m not derailing. I’m saying you shouldn’t include something that no anet employee has confirmed to be an exploit in the no exploit rule.

That’s just so naive.

I’m not derailing. I’m saying you shouldn’t include something that no anet employee has confirmed to be an exploit in the no exploit rule.

Well, Anet doesn’t even care about speed-clear records to begin with. That why we set our own rules, including whether we consider something to be an exploit or not. This is something that should be up for discussion with all parties involved.

Key points from my skype convo with cookie last night:

Errant:

GW2 dungeons are so linear + easy that if you insist on no door skips

the limiting factor on record runs will be

how long it takes to run between each boss

not your personal skill level

and it’ll be pretty easy for everyone to obtain roughly the same times

That’s the big problem with trying to impose “no exploits” rules. GW2 dungeons are relatively easy and unlike GW1 dungeons, they’re completely linear. Most boss encounters are not difficult. If you do not allow door skips there will be no room for duo/single splits which are the only real difficult part of record runs in GW2.

Every record run will turn into a race to see who can run through trash from boss to boss the fastest and that will put a hard limit on how fast the dungeon can be completed (without hacking there’s a hard limit on how fast a character can travel). Because bosses are so easy to kill, it will be this time running between bosses that decides the records not technical skill or creative tactics and it will be relatively easy for anyone to reach the record time.

That’s just boring to me.

If Anet ever introduces dungeons like UW/FoW/DoA this would be a completely different story. Endgame areas in GW1 weren’t linear: they werre essentially a medium-sized map with 10+ objectives that must be completed to finish the dungeon. Very few of these objectives were dependent on each other and most could be completed simultaneously: this creates a scenario where teams can split into groups of 1-2 and use creative tactics to attempt to complete tasks designed for an entire group of 8 in order to achieve a very fast time. This was a true measure of technical skill and made records meaningful. Even getting close to a record time was very hard.

Until non-linear dungeons are introduced in GW2, I don’t see a purpose for records, except possibly for the case of solos/duos.

That’s why there are going to be two categories.

Errant Venture.9371:

Wethospu.6437:

That’s why there are going to be two categories.

We don’t even have the community to support one set of rules for records at the moment. What makes you think that introducing more categories of records will do anything but splinter/confuse the record community even more?

So we should just keep exactly same system as before? And somehow expect different results?

Also feel free to explain how map exploits make it more skillful. All exploits I know just skip encounters reducing amount of skill required.

Wethospu.6437:

That’s why there are going to be two categories.

We don’t even have the community to support one set of rules for records at the moment. What makes you think that introducing more categories of records will do anything but splinter/confuse the record community even more?

Because the people we do have, have the capacity to try for both categories?

Wethospu.6437:

That’s why there are going to be two categories.

Errant Venture.9371:

Wethospu.6437:

That’s why there are going to be two categories.

We don’t even have the community to support one set of rules for records at the moment. What makes you think that introducing more categories of records will do anything but splinter/confuse the record community even more?

So we should just keep exactly same system as before? And somehow expect different results?

Also feel free to explain how map exploits make it more skillful. All I know just skip encounters reducing amount of skill required.

If you still require that all bosses/objectives then the only advantage to door sticks is that they allow you to split off 1-2 players so you can complete multiple objectives simultaneously. I’d argue that completing bosses/objectives with fewer players than those bosses/objectives were designed for is much more difficult than following the standard linear path designed for the dungeon.

Regarding your first question: I guess I’m sort of playing devil’s advocate. I don’t think records have much meaning at all for full-team parties in GW2 because the dungeons aren’t difficult enough to warrant it.

Odd Magnet.3970:

I really like the thought of finally having exploit-free-speedclears.

Not only does it involve more skill, it also (most likely) will get the competition up.

This is just amazing; you are saying using complex tactics and splits are easier than 5 people autoattacking a boss for maximum kill speed. You speak like the bosses in this game are hard.

While peoples desires to have an ‘exploit free’ record table is understandable, the dungeons are so linear every team could get within seconds of each other just by producing their best dps and running between bosses fast. With the ‘exploit free’ rules being put in place, most ‘record runs’ are looking to be slower than the casual dungeon runs I do with my guild every week.

I see speed clears as a challenge to achieve the fastest possible completion time within the set rules – as long as you are achieving the ultimate goal of the dungeon completion, reward) there is no problem what happens in the middle.

Even if neither table existed, my guild would still continuously improve our tactics for casual and record runs simply because we enjoy it – we break our own times and other peoples times because it’s the best way to have fun. The idea of limiting yourself to basic tactics and just focusing on biggest DPS is incredible boring.

Incredibly, for one of the first times in 6 years I’m agreeing with an [LOD] member! Good job breaking the streak Errant

andylicious.1632:

While peoples desires to have an ‘exploit free’ record table is understandable, the dungeons are so linear every team could get within seconds of each other just by producing their best dps and running between bosses fast. With the ‘exploit free’ rules being put in place, most ‘record runs’ are looking to be slower than the casual dungeon runs I do with my guild every week.

So what?
You’ll have more opportunities for more pointless bragging, that goes in your favour.
Nevermind, ignore me, I’ll let you “élite players” argue with each other.

I would like hear an example of these amazing splits.

They arent really splits but i think they are pretty cool strats when 1 person runs ahead on coe and ta. The TA one isnt an exploit though, its just a portal skip. Jumping over the doors in coe makes it a bit more intesesting. But i can see why people would be against it.