Guild Wars 2

Really getting tired of the insults, harassment, and debates about issues of group set ups. There is nothing wrong asking for variation for groups and I am tired of people ruining other people’s reputation by calling them bad and to make fun of them by accusing them of being an Elitist type.

Can I get a Developer quote to back me up on the following issue:

Having 3, 4, or 5 of the same profession in a group, is bad due to the lack of skill variation, Crowd Control, and buffs offered?

If you could help me on this, this would make my Life so much better both in-game and out-game.

Having 3, 4, or 5 of the same profession in a group, is bad due to the lack of skill variation, Crowd Control, and buffs offered?

But it’s not – 5 guardians or 5 warriors are one of the easiest setups in dungeons; not saying ‘best’, but they can get everything done with relative ease, good for pugging and bad players.
It’s bad to have 5 glass cannon toons, or 5 ‘i decide to autoattack the whole dungeon’ people, or 5 ’i’ll only use 3 skills’ people, or 5 ‘i am melee uber warrior and i refuse to use ranged stuff’, or 5 ‘my minions are cool’ people. It really isn’t based on your profession composition that much, though.

@ drkn.3429

Wow, another person talking about 2 classes only, because Guardians were designed to be tanky with the best support and heal skills and warriors are more bursty in dps and CC skills.

Not like all classes can do this.

I really hate people that make comments like this because they have nothing to offer.

It is true however.
It is very possible to do most if not all dungeons in the game with simply 5 of the same profession.
Be it Guardian, Mesmer, Warrior or Elementalist.

@ lordkrall.7241

This is why Life in-game is so hard because of stupid statements like this. This just opens up debates about other professions unable to do this and it also ruins the whole point of FotM, that has certain mechanics that disallow players from progression.

You might find it stupid, that does not however make it less true.

I have completed several explorable runs with full group of Mesmers.

Have friends that have done it with full group of Thieves and so on.
As long as everyone is good and know what to do it very possible to finish almost anything with any group-setup

@ lordkrall.7241

I can name a bunch of mechanics in game in the FotM and Old Dungeons, that disallow Engineers any progression as well as Thievies if they did indeed go 5 man.

So your statement about a full 5 man group or 4 man group, is false.

Please name these mechanics

@ lordkrall.7241

I got a group together for FotM. However the instances I recall by memory that I had issues of being useless due to one of those professions is CoF path 1 and 3, TA not sure in path, FotM extra boss fights and other dungeons.

In about an hour or two, I will post the whole list.

Edit: TA issues, is Engineer thing, I forgot which path but the issue is Engineer cannot cause any melee auto damage. Somewhere in TA there is a point where some mobs, after crossing a bridge, that are behind bubbles, non of my attacks including, kits, and turrets can damage them.

In CoF Path 1, Engineers could not burst down the final boss. In path 3, Engineers could not get pass the gauntlet event.

In FotM, extra boss area, occurs every 2 levels, there are certain mobs that reflect all projectiles, we have no melee.

I’ll post more updates for the all thief issues. Much later.

You are not naming those mechanics that you said were impossible to certain professions.
Please do.

The problem would not be 5 identical professions, but -possibly- 5 identical skillsets/trait set ups (if noone had any condition removal for example), but how often is that going to happen?

TA issues, is Engineer thing, I forgot which path but the issue is Engineer cannot cause any melee auto damage. Somewhere in TA there is a point where some mobs, after crossing a bridge, that are behind bubbles, non of my attacks including, kits, and turrets can damage them.

You aren’t supposed to damage them through the bubbles, but to enter those bubbles and fight them inside. You can melee them with a gs warrior that way just as well. More so, warriors can’t fight them from the outside either.
Many professions being able to fight them without teleporting inside is actually a flaw in the design.

In CoF Path 1, Engineers could not burst down the final boss. In path 3, Engineers could not get pass the gauntlet event.

Sorry, but that’s just a bad/undergeared team of engineers. I’ve done CoF1 in 3 engis, a mesmer and a necro multiple times with no issues – yes, it’s slower than with some 100b wars, but still very doable.

In FotM, extra boss area, occurs every 2 levels, there are certain mobs that reflect all projectiles, we have no melee.

Their shield is not up all the time.

Being bad, being undergeared or not built ‘properly’ for dungeons, not understanding the mechanics (like with TA above) – those are not problems with the design.

I was in a party of 5 eles doing HotW some time ago. Longest HotW in my life, but still not problematic.

@ drkn.3429

Again guys I am in a group at the moment, and cannot argue with you on this right now.

However the bubble comment, inside and outside, as an Engineer, you cannot damage those mobs with any abilities or weapons. So please stop posting false information.

This argument is about 4 or 5 of the same profession. So again you are wasting people’s time with your lack of knowledge.

The jade enemies actually reflect projectiles all of the time.

But Engineers have bombs, grenades and flamethrowers to get around that. It’s possible to damage them with the blast radius from grenades without being reflected, and the other two kits are self-explanatory.

So we are the ones with lack of knowledge when you are the one that seems to miss the fact that every profession can do several different things?

However the bubble comment, inside and outside, as an Engineer, you cannot damage those mobs with any abilities or weapons. So please stop posting false information.

You can – when you get inside the bubble.
Getting ‘obstructed’ with flamethrower from time to time when there’s nothing to be obstructed by it something completely different, but the flamethrower is not the only of engi’s goodies.

The only 5man teams i see as having troubles is 5 necros, simply because they excel at nothing but cleaning trash now and they’d hit the cap of 25 bleeds much too soon. Still – don’t have the same build and you’re good to go.
I really perceive it as another facet of the ‘pugging problem’ – when you already have 2 necros, pugging a third might be risky if they run the same thing as the other two, refuse to change their build and/or are generally inflexible. Same goes for going 5 pugged engineers – each of them might want to run a glassy flamethrower build, with no one bringing support or ranged dps, no one slotting some control skills… even though an engineer can do all of that.

@ drkn.3429

Sorry but still calling you a liar, not too long ago 4-5 days ago, no damage in that TA situation caused no damage with weapons, any kits, or flame thrower, inside or out of the bubble event.

Again please stop posting false information.

So just because YOU can’t do it, it must mean that no one can?

There are groups that have done it, so clearly it is very possible. Sounds like you might need to learn to play the profession rather than a issue with grouping to be honest.

I clearly said that as an Engineer issue, I was unable to do any damage during that event. Not sure what the real problem is but he is a fat plain liar. If you have a problem with that, might I suggest go to some other thread.

Sorry but still in group, can’t focus what needs to be said because you guys are being rude and not waiting.

Exactly, YOU were unable to do any damage. That does not mean NO ONE will be able to do any damage when playing Engineer.

@ lordkrall.7241

No you are wrong, if I could not cause in damage inside or outside the bubble with any of my attacks, kits, turrets, or flame gun, as an Engineer than that is an Engineer issue, and since you cant verify it on your Engineer, you make a pointless argument.

Now this is my last glance at this post, because I will not argue with people that act like children when I can’t focus on this. Until then you will be ignored and so will this thread until I finish my group!

Go inside.
Equip grenades.
Throw grenades at your feet, dealing splash damage to the archer.

That’s the easiest, most bad-player-friendly way to do it. There are more, though.

Just to check, you did actually go IN the bubble right? Meaning, you entered one of the glowy-teleporter things and appeared inside, right next to the mob?

I have a feeling you just stood outside and targeted the mob from there, correct me if I’m wrong.

Ok finally! Group is done, so now I can focus my time on this thread where I am arguing with non-adults type people.

Special Note: Please remember that this thread is about the issues with rude or jerk type of people that throw this stupid junk debate/argument about the 4 or 5 of the same profession in a group can work and that people that try to be different, are bashed for it.

Special Note #2: Please do not forget this is based on PuG, not guild or group with friends, debate.

The bubble issue, in a certain TA path, with 3-4 bubbles with mobs in them to kill. Yes for crying out loud, saying it for many times, both inside and outside the bubble, I have used all weapons, meaning pistols and pistol and shield combo; all kits meaning grenade kit, bomb kit, and mine kits; and the flame thrower.

No Damage of any kind was formed, no obstruction was seen, nothing.

So again this would prevent the Engineers, should it be a group of 4 or 5 engineers, from proceeding on that TA path in that one area.

Now as for the CoF Path 1, no Engineer can provide enough damage for the regen phase for the final boss. The only possible idea I can think of, not tested, is 2 Engineers go for AoE bomb heal and 2 or 3 engineers, go for the grenade spec.

Turret spec would be bad because the crystals would one shot them, even when speced. Going Fire arms spec is bad because you cannot cause enough damage with pistols in time versus the dodging involved.

Now as for Thieves in this matter, having a bunch of thieves is bad because they are squishy and they invis alot. There is a well known annoying bug that the wrong invis will reset the boss. I have no idea if Arenanet fixed this or not. However on this argument if Thieves try to heal, which one of them makes them go invis, it resets the boss.

Now for CoF Path 3, Engineers could not cause enough damage, during the second part of the dungeon where the gauntlet happens. I promise you, even with a well thought out group formations, with Bomb Spec, Turret Spec, Grenade Spec, and whatever the last two spec sets up are.

There is not enough CC when the transaction happens with the Flame Shamans to the Thieves popping up in the same area.

Same issue with Thieves, if too many go invis, to heal, they will lose progress in holding that area.

Now for the extra boss dungeon with the MotF issue.

Since alot of the mobs, total, are the golems that require melee since they reflect all projectiles, we would be stuck with bomb kits. I just tested it out and they reflect all pistols and shield attacks, and grenade attacks.

Leaving you with bomb and mine kits, theoretically, it would be near impossible for a majority or full engineer group because of the tentacles and golems and Engineers are weak if not, useless, at melee range.

Now give me a moment to think of the other Dungeons, I have had issues with certain encounters, in my next post.

Now about the issue with Necros, I play a Necro myself, without being level 80 yet. I can see Necros having issues as a majority or full Necro group since the base of their majority of their abilities and attacks are more of a counter of condition and a large put of their stuff is support buffs but hurt the Necro.

Now another issue, which I have no idea if Arenanet fixed or not, is the Dungeon Aura.

Path 4 comes to mind when you have to join orbs all at the same time and then dps the boss again.

Since the Orb issue was a well known bug, players would by pass this phase by taking the boss, 5th boss to be precise, to a certain area, with over 150+ tears. Without a Mesmer with a Warrior or Thief, cannot cause enough damage versus her regen.

Even if it was a Engineers with a single Mesmer with a mixture of grenade and bomb specs, it would be near impossible to execute enough damage, in a fast and constant reactions, due to the time of “throw tear to remove stone debuff”. This goes for any other classes such as Elemetalist, Necros, and Mesmers (Maybe).

I really doubt a majority or all of the “Necros”, “Elementalist”,“Thieves”, or “Guardians” when it comes to Path 4. Path 1 during the Pirate part and Path 2 during the 4 boss. Pretty sure they would have issues with Path 3, but can’t remember which boss it was.

CoE would be kitten near impossible for the for Thieves due to that zombie boss.

SE Path 2 would be an issue for Thieves, Elementalist, and Necros, during that first part.

Path 1 would be an issue for Thieves during 3rd boss, I believe, the one with the two champions.

That’s all I can think of, on top of my head that would be real issues for 4 or 5 of the same profession.

Other than that, that was plenty of examples of issues with 4 or 5 same professions in a group.

So really, you have no defense when claiming 4 or 5 same professions in a group would not be a problem and this stupid crap needs to stop.

There is nothing wrong with variation in a group and the idea of 3, 4, or 5 of the same profession is bad and not idea for PuGing. However over all the idea is just bad.

I am sick and tired of people, the very same people I see in this thread, that spout and throw BS all over the place, and putting down people like me that try to form and balance groups and get accuse of being Elitist type player. If you don’t like it then don’t bother joining the group, but most of all Don’t sit there and accuse us for being an Elitist type player with your lying to the public by harassing us threw whispers or discredit us threw map chat or spamming in your guild about us!

If anything, I think the most of the people I have met on game and in this thread are the Elitist jerks that plague this game and it is YOU people, that ruin the game’s experience.

drkn.3429:

You aren’t supposed to damage them through the bubbles, but to enter those bubbles and fight them inside. You can melee them with a gs warrior that way just as well. More so, warriors can’t fight them from the outside either.
Many professions being able to fight them without teleporting inside is actually a flaw in the design.

It’s not a flaw, basically every ranged non-projectile attack will get through the bubble. Bubbles absorb only projectiles. Can’t really imagine that was a flaw in the design but a
intentional choice. Also, you can get inside the bubble without using teleport (every profession except necro)

Just to end this with the people that want to be children about this, Arena net just recently, not long ago, made a statement of changing all the old dungeons in a future patch, so this may make this argument, nullified or enforced in the near future.

What ever choice Arena net makes, pretty sure even Arena net would agree, having 3, 4, or 5 of the same profession as a group for Dungeon Explore or FotM, is pretty much goes against their game mechanic ideas.

Shadowlancer.7102:

What ever choice Arena net makes, pretty sure even Arena net would agree, having 3, 4, or 5 of the same profession as a group for Dungeon Explore or FotM, is pretty much goes against their game mechanic ideas.

It doesn’t. Actually it’s consistent with game mechanics.

The bubble issue, in a certain TA path

If you’ve done everything properly and still never dealt any damage, you just have run into a random bug. I’ve done TA many, many times, on 4 different professions, in different team combinations, using melee, ranged and ‘other’ attacks alike, both inside and outside the bubble, and never had any issues. I was in teams with 1~3 engineers (guild groups) and had no problems going through any of the content unless they all wanted to go squishy flamethrower.

Now as for the CoF Path 1, no Engineer can provide enough damage for the regen phase for the final boss. The only possible idea I can think of, not tested, is 2 Engineers go for AoE bomb heal and 2 or 3 engineers, go for the grenade spec

Everyone for grenades, everyone for power build with some prec and some crit, and just nuke him down. One can go pistols for poison, as it works really well with the regen.
Being undergeared might be an issue there, though. I was in CoF1 this very morning with 2 people in masterworks and 1 person in a glass cannon build in rares who just kept dying all the time, and while it wasn’t impossible to beat the effigy, it took us MUCH longer than ‘normally’. Rares to exotics is 12% difference in stats, and if more people are undergeared… it simply shows.

Now as for Thieves in this matter, having a bunch of thieves is bad because they are squishy and they invis alot.

Two words: blossom spam.
Again – don’t be undergeared, but also don’t go full glass cannon. The effigy’s damage is laughable until it gets the might stacks later on, but then it’s still easy to avoid or heal up.
Not being undergeared, not going for condition damage, not going for full glass cannon – that’s something true for everyone (except for necros on the cond dmg part), and if those three premises are kept in mind, if the party is diversified in builds and roles, not necessarily professions, you’ll be fine.
Thieves don’t have too much party support, but then they don’t really need it. The main problem of thieves, though, is that there are not enough good thief players – everyone seems to go for full glass cannon, can’t properly utilise their stealth and all the utility skills, can’t dodge out of telegraphed attacks.

FotM bonus fractal – as mentioned above, go grenades and throw them by the mob to hit it with the splash damage.

Yes, going 5man X team is usually slower; yes, it’s usually annoying; yes, 5man war parties are cheesy and boring; yes, the difficulty level of going in 5man X team, except for wars and guardians, is higher.
But everything’s doable.

Pugs have much bigger issues than just the profession composition. People do not listen. People do not want to change their builds to fit the group. People do not bring ranged weapons, as seen in another thread here. People ignore dungeon mechanics. People ignore game mechanics. People are undergeared, or geared for useless stats, or geared for full glass cannon they simply can’t handle, or they bring MF sets into dungeons.
None of that is a case of faulty design.

The design promotes tanky builds that can hold their ground and survive every encounter on their own while still dishing out constant damage, throwing in some party support from time to time, best in form of maximising dps rather than providing more survival (as everyone is responsible for their own survival, first and foremost, with no healers around – and trying to play one is simply bad). The design promotes taking advantage of game and dungeon mechanics – use of line of sight, of range, skipping (sometimes), and so on.
The design punishes bad players – and not in terms of any ‘skill’, whatever it means, as even proper dodging is just a matter of practice. It punishes players who ignore the dungeon mechanics and just want to faceroll through everything. It punishes players who bite off more than they can chew – both in regard to overaggro and to running glass builds when they simply can’t handle it. It punishes impatient players who want to do everything NOW and on the first attempt, while even experienced dungeoneers may need a wipe or two to learn a new dungeon’s mechanics. It punishes inflexible people who refuse to tweak their builds, who bring only their favourite weapon and never use anything else.
Because of the above it punishes pugs. Not because of a ‘bad design’.
Proper guild groups are fine, even if they have 4 engineers or elementalists, although yes – such groups are ‘subpar’, slower, harder to run – but very working.

haviz.1340:

drkn.3429:

You aren’t supposed to damage them through the bubbles, but to enter those bubbles and fight them inside. You can melee them with a gs warrior that way just as well. More so, warriors can’t fight them from the outside either.
Many professions being able to fight them without teleporting inside is actually a flaw in the design.

It’s not a flaw, basically every ranged non-projectile attack will get through the bubble. Bubbles absorb only projectiles. Can’t really imagine that was a flaw in the design but a
intentional choice. Also, you can get inside the bubble without using teleport (every profession except necro)

I’m very aware of that, but given that the teleports are there, the ranged-non-projectile attacks working seems like an oversight, forcing everyone to use the portals would be much more fun.

@ haviz.1340

Well rather or not this is true, this really isn’t helping with no one, because I have met alot of people that forced to invite extra of the same classes, by people, that are being a complete kitten about this very situation, and then bail when group doesn’t work with the lack of variety of spells and buffs.

Just the very idea of having a majority of the same profession or all of the same profession to do a dungeon explore mode or FotM, is stupid! No, its not my opinion, the idea itself PURE idiocy because this already hurts the game populations because the most top favorite profession creation is Warrior, Mesmer, Thief, and Guardian.

So if you allow people to use 3, 4, or 5 of the same profession able to group up and complete dungeons without bother with any other professions, what’s the point having the other professions?

Its obvious here the people are Blind and do not see the issue clearly! However, if you cannot allow other professions to have some kind of competitions versus the list I posted, you really have a broken game set up for PvE.

drkn.3429:

haviz.1340:

drkn.3429:

You aren’t supposed to damage them through the bubbles, but to enter those bubbles and fight them inside. You can melee them with a gs warrior that way just as well. More so, warriors can’t fight them from the outside either.
Many professions being able to fight them without teleporting inside is actually a flaw in the design.

It’s not a flaw, basically every ranged non-projectile attack will get through the bubble. Bubbles absorb only projectiles. Can’t really imagine that was a flaw in the design but a
intentional choice. Also, you can get inside the bubble without using teleport (every profession except necro)

I’m very aware of that, but given that the teleports are there, the ranged-non-projectile attacks working seems like an oversight, forcing everyone to use the portals would be much more fun.

The whole encounter is still bad designed. You can’t summon any pets rendering most mesmers build to almost nothingness (most of the dps comes from various usage of illusions) except spamming greatsword clones outside the dome. Does forcing everyone to port inside is still a good idea? Plus, like I’ve said, every proffesion except necro can get inside the bubble without using teleporters.

Just the very idea of having a majority of the same profession or all of the same profession to do a dungeon explore mode or FotM, is stupid! No, its not my opinion, the idea itself PURE idiocy because this already hurts the game populations because the most top favorite profession creation is Warrior, Mesmer, Thief, and Guardian.

Just to reiterate – i’m not saying that purposely organising 5man war or any X team is a good idea. It’s not, or at least – it doesn’t solve any of the problems pointed out in my previous post.
All i’m saying is that if you, by chance, get a team with 4-5 of X, you still can get nearly all stuff done (4 necros can’t do AC1 and AC3 not pugged at least, and it takes some more advanced tactics to do it with guildies).

Shadowlancer.7102:

@ haviz.1340

Well rather or not this is true, this really isn’t helping with no one, because I have met alot of people that forced to invite extra of the same classes, by people, that are being a complete kitten about this very situation, and then bail when group doesn’t work with the lack of variety of spells and buffs.

Just the very idea of having a majority of the same profession or all of the same profession to do a dungeon explore mode or FotM, is stupid! No, its not my opinion, the idea itself PURE idiocy because this already hurts the game populations because the most top favorite profession creation is Warrior, Mesmer, Thief, and Guardian.

So if you allow people to use 3, 4, or 5 of the same profession able to group up and complete dungeons without bother with any other professions, what’s the point having the other professions?

Its obvious here the people are Blind and do not see the issue clearly! However, if you cannot allow other professions to have some kind of competitions versus the list I posted, you really have a broken game set up for PvE.

The issue is clear. However, most people use those proffesions because they are rather faceroll-ish so I guess that makes less chance to get player badly utilizing said proffesions (relatively to other less wanted proffesions).

So i’m basing on specific examples provided by you – it’s bad.
I’m talking in general – it’s bad.
I’m pointing out what are the problems of pugging – it’s bad.
I’m pointing out that 5man engi team can get stuff done, even if facing projectile reflection or the TA bubbles – it’s bad.
I agree that purposely organising a 5man war/whatever party is wrong – it’s bad.
I just do not agree that it makes much difference, as you can still get stuff done – it’s bad.

It seems like you’ve just been to parties with bad engineers/thieves who failed at one or more things i’ve mentioned above, and/or you’ve been excluded or not invited to random parties because you play profession X. Anyone telling you that it’s not a bad design but a flaw in players’ mindset, as well as that you still can get stuff done with your toon whatever it is, is a troll or a child for you.
Ta ta!

e @ down:
Good luck getting a “Developer quote” to back you up, especially that one of the game’s premises is that you can complete anything in any party setup as long as you’re flexible – even with 5 engis!

Again… you are back tracking and misleading the situation. I won’t bother replying to a poser, after this. Thanks for the good laugh.